Croup and Vandemar (BUILD HELP)

[shadow_archmagi]

I'll be participating in an Evil campaign soon, so me and a friend decided we'd take a stab at playing Croup and Vandemar inspired villains.

So, roleplay wise, it's a fairly easy shot. Croup likes to talk a great deal, and enjoys using big words and odd turns of phrase. Vandemar is extremely blunt and likes to eat things. They both enjoy violence a great deal.

Mechanically, it's never made clear EXACTLY what they are or what they're capable of, but we do know that:

1. Croup dodges a mace telekinetically hurled at his head from behind; this suggests Uncanny Dodge, or possibly Blindsense.

2. Neither of them bleeds; Vandemar can impale his hand and then repair it with a little spit. Unsure how to replicate this.

3. Vandemar can mimic voices perfectly.

4. Vandemar can track by scent.

5. Croup can teleport; on one occasion, he sends Vandemar off to hunt by himself and later materializes beside him. Also, at the end of the book, he is sent to catch the intruder and simply materializes directly behind him.

6. They're both extremely adept at close combat, and appear to have natural attacks.

The game is level 10 gestalt, set in Eberron, so we've got plenty of levels to work with. Scent and a natural attack makes me think Shifter, but that doesn't leave me with anything to stop the bleeding. Tome of Battle with an emphasis on Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand, maybe? Shadow Jaunt could help for teleports.

[Juhn]

I'm reasonably sure #2 is basically just regeneration or fast healing (I forget the difference between the two at the moment).

[Fax Celestis]

They're both shifter bards.

[TroubleBrewing]

They're both shifter bards.

I'd say Shifter Bardblades. They display frightening prowess with regards to cutting things to pieces.

Good choice of inspiration, btw.

[Fax Celestis]

I'd say Shifter Bardblades. They display frightening prowess with regards to cutting things to pieces.

Good choice of inspiration, btw.

I'd put Vandemar as a bardblade, sure, but I think Croup is more of a straight bard.

[Skeller]

2nd one is Regen. Are you going more from the book graphic novel or miniseries by the way? Just wondering.

[shadow_archmagi]

What makes you say BARD of all things? Even if you ruled that Worrying Monologue was an appropriate choice for the Perform skill, they certainly don't inspire courage, and the only thing they fascinate is the reader. They should probably have quite impressive Charisma, though.

EDIT: I havn't seen the graphic novel, but I just re-read the book and watched the miniseries this weekend in preparation. As far as I can tell, there's no major differences (Except that the film doesn't include the scene with the mace, changes how Mr. Varney dies, and gives a lot of Mr. Croup's lines to Mr. Vandemar)

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Based just on your description, I'd use SS for Croup and Crusader for Vandemar with either Martial Stance, or a Warblade dip for Hunter's Stance or a race that gives scent.

[darksolitaire]

What makes you say BARD of all things? Even if you ruled that Worrying Monologue was an appropriate choice for the Perform skill, they certainly don't inspire courage, and the only thing they fascinate is the reader. They should probably have quite impressive Charisma, though.


There's Bard variant which inspires fear, that might work :smallsmile:
Harbringer, from dragon 337.

Also, I think they might need some time control effects, such as haste and time stop. It's a while when I read the book and watched the series, so can't really add much else.

[DoctorGlock]

They also happen to be immortal, so chuck some wedded to history on to them.
They have some form of limited telportation in the book, so they need a way to dimension door or shadow jaunt, though it had longer range and no line of sight

[TroubleBrewing]

Wait. Jaebrin, MMV.

Those teeth... :smalleek:

Known for being liars. Check. Giant teeth. Check. Favored class: bard (I think). Check. Charisma bonus. Check. Fey, therefore immortal. Check.

Good lord.

EDIT: Favored Class: Beguiler, but I was close.

[Flickerdart]

If you can get a monstrous progression for Murderjacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040828a), they are almost exactly what you need.

[Human Paragon 3]

Wow, murderjack looks perfect! Since you are gestalt, see if you can get your DM to allow Murderjack for one half of the gestalt. Homebrew a monstrous progression if needed.

Then for the other half, go thug-varient fighter for Vandemar and... actually it works fine for both. Hexblade is a good choice, too, getting haste, slow, full BAB and that neat curse effect to soften opponents for the fear aura.

You can get scent through martial stance, and the healing could just be a bard cure spell.

[Venger]

cool choice for characters, I love those guys.

the miniseries did come first, so mr vandemar's lines were given to croup in the novelisation, which came a year or two later, but the miniseries benefits you most since it gives both of them a fairly equal amount of screentime. the graphic novel changes little, it's just a highly abridged version.

I would suggest the half-vampire template from LM. they are immortal in-canon and talk about blood a fair amount. in the novelisation, it is also mentioned that when they kill varney, it's mentioned there is no blood left, implying they drank it.

as far as clases go, gestalt gives you plenty of options. they rather pointedly only use knives, so invisible blade could be a lot of fun and lets you focus on int for mr croup.

the novelisation obviously has room to describe them in flowery prose more and mr croup is described numerous times with fox imagery and mr vandemar with dog imagery, so shifter would work for either or both of them.

[herrhauptmann]

Croup and Vandemar... They're from Neverwhere right?

Always knew it started as a what, radioTV miniseries? But first I saw of it was a novel. Wasn't aware of a graphic novelization.

[shadow_archmagi]

Croup and Vandemar... They're from Neverwhere right?

Always knew it started as a what, radio miniseries? But first I saw of it was a novel. Wasn't aware of a graphic novelization.

TV miniseries, not radio. The actors playing Croup and Vandemar were clearly having so much fun.

Hmm, Half Vampire Shifter might just cover everything, race-wise.

[Venger]

Croup and Vandemar... They're from Neverwhere right?

Always knew it started as a what, radioTV miniseries? But first I saw of it was a novel. Wasn't aware of a graphic novelization.

Yeps, they're "those two bad guys" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThoseTwoBadGuys) from neverwhere

it was indeed a tv miniseries in england first in 1996, a companion novelisation was released a few months afterwards, and they made a comic of it in 2005. a movie is due out this year, but it's in been in development hell for a while.



TV miniseries, not radio. The actors playing Croup and Vandemar were clearly having so much fun.

Hmm, Half Vampire Shifter might just cover everything, race-wise.

oh yeah, they're great. glad you agree. :smallsmile:

[shadow_archmagi]

So, I ultimately went with Human Half-Dragon* 1/ Half-Vampire 2/swashbuckler 3/Monk 2/Warblade 2//Warblade 5/Invisible Blade 5 (DM went O_o but okayed being two halves and a whole)

*Using the Half Dragon Template Class thing where you get bonuses per level invested in it.


Working off of 32 point buy, I went with starting stats of
16 12 10 18 8 8, which after templates becomes 20 14 10 20 8 10.

Half Vampire gets me Fast Healing 1 (if below half HP), the power to deal constitution damage in a grapple, Damage Reduction 5 magic/silver, +2 STR DEX&CHA, 2 natural armor, and 5 resistance to cold and electricity. And the improved initiative feat.

One level of Half Dragon gets me +2 STR and INT, +2 natural armor, and 10 resistance to an element (Fire, probably?). Oh, and darkvision.

Swashbuckler 3 means INT to damage

Warblade 7 means INT to reflex and damage, and on critical confirmation, plus uncanny dodge to make sure I'm never without my AC, and a bonus feat. Also, of course, maneuvers.

Monk 2 gets me Improved Grapple and Combat Reflexes and Evasion*, which are always nice to have. The Caramel Monk feat lets me add INT to AC and Stunning Fist (Still wondering if it might be worth investing in just as a side bonus.) *As long as I have a monstrous touch AC, maybe I should trade Evasion for Spell Deflection via the ACF in Complete Mage?

Invisible Blade 5 gets me INT to AC, sneak attack, and the power to feint as a free action.

I'll probably take Craven to capitalize on the sneak attack

NOTES: DM said that the requirements for Invisible Blade were stupid, and I should feel free to change them to something thematically appropriate for a dagger-based class.

The end result is a character that can cut things up with daggers for 1d4+3d6+25, and has an item-free AC of 26. Attack power seems decent for a level 10; I won't be one-shotting massive and powerful enemies but I don't feel the need to steal the spotlight on this particular occasion. AC could probably use a boost if I want to actually avoid attacks; what's the most cost-efficient way to boost it using items?

Besides Craven and Caramadearline Monk, I have no idea what to take for feats.

[Venger]

So, I ultimately went with Human Half-Dragon* 1/ Half-Vampire 2/swashbuckler 3/Monk 2/Warblade 2//Warblade 5/Invisible Blade 5
huh? half-vampire is a template, not a class, you don't take levels in it. it's in libris mortis. where is the half-dragon savage progression? is it online?



Monk 2 gets me Improved Grapple and Combat Reflexes and Evasion*, which are always nice to have. The Caramel Monk feat lets me add INT to AC and Stunning Fist (Still wondering if it might be worth investing in just as a side bonus.) *As long as I have a monstrous touch AC, maybe I should trade Evasion for Spell Deflection via the ACF in Complete Mage?

heehee. it's "Carmendine" monk, although caramel monk would be a rather hilarious concept.

http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-292-carmendine-monk.html

just a quick correction, at monk 1, you get either stunning fist or improved grapple. you do not get both. stunning fist is ridiculously hard to qualify for, whereas improved grapple only requires IUS and dex 13, which you've got already, so you might consider taking that as a regular nonmonk bonus feat and then pick stunning fist as your bonus feat since grappling is important since it's where your blood drain comes from.

stunning fist is not worth investing a feat in, mainly due to the difficulty of qualification and only getting it late in the game. getting it for free is kind of cool though and fi you like it thematically (and are cutting down on monk MAD by going carmendine and focusing on int which'll be your primary stat) then that's nice. improved grapple, due to blood drain, arguably is worth the feat, especially since you don't know what to you with your feats.

your dex is decent, but not incredibly high. ranged touch attack spells are somewhat rare, even compared to ref save spells. how exactly is your ref save with this build. is it good? I believe you have 7 levels of good ref save from monk and IB and 8 of poor from swashbuckler and warblade. I don't know what the savage progression of half-dragon's saves are like. if your ref save is "good" or better (read: equal to or greater than your HD/2 + 2) then go for evasion. if it's closer to "poor" (read: HD/3 rounded down) then you will likely benefit more from spell reflection.

don't forget about the incredibly popular "invisible fist" ACF from exemplars of evil. trade in your monk evasion for the ability to go invisible for 1 round as a swift action (excellent for catching people flatfooted for SA) wait 3 rounds to recharge and do it again. much better than spell reflection for a build like this (LOS is necessary for rays anyway)

you are also cutting yourself short by 1 lvl your build up there only has 19 lvls in it. half-vampire is not a class, but a template. its LA is only +1, not +2, so you have 1 more level to do something with.



Invisible Blade 5 gets me INT to AC, sneak attack, and the power to feint as a free action.

I'll probably take Craven to capitalize on the sneak attack
craven is never a bad choice. however, since your will saves are not very good and you dumped wisdom, look into buying a few ranks in "autohypnosis" (a little-known psionic skill keyed off wis) crossclass. your int's ridiculous and you're human, you ought to have room for it. if you ever fail a save against fear (which with craven and will saves and wisdom like yours, you will) you get to make another save against it using your autohypnosis check instead. if you make it, you're good. a powerful fear effect can ruin you, so this is a nice preventative measure against the achilles heel craven gives you.


NOTES: DM said that the requirements for Invisible Blade were stupid, and I should feel free to change them to something thematically appropriate for a dagger-based class.
that's nice of him. I suggest "flick of the wrist", it lets you make a sleight of hand check (which you should be decent at) against an enemy's spot check in order to render him flatfooted for the purpose of your attack usable once/encounter/enemy. very useful as a backup if your feint fails to go off.

depending on how crit-focused you are, telling blow is a perennial favourite amongst SAers, it lets you add SA dice onto any critical hits.

staggering strike is also very good. whenever you make a melee SA, your enemy rolls a fort save against the damage dealt or is staggered (only a move or standard each round) for 1 round. very brutal when you're making a bunch of attacks a round


The end result is a character that can cut things up with daggers for 1d4+3d6+25, and has an item-free AC of 26. Attack power seems decent for a level 10; I won't be one-shotting massive and powerful enemies but I don't feel the need to steal the spotlight on this particular occasion. AC could probably use a boost if I want to actually avoid attacks; what's the most cost-efficient way to boost it using items?

Besides Craven and Caramadearline Monk, I have no idea what to take for feats.

SAers never steal the spotlight. they spend a lot of time just figuring out how to deal the most damage and it's hard for them to do that without SAing, which isn't always possible (constructs, undead, oozes, etc) but a greater truedeath crystal will take care of that rather nicely (lets you SA undead)

you should have something to fall back on when SA isn't possible, because your damage output drops drastically to (I think) 1d4+5. but that's what half-vampire is for, its grapple and con drain work when they're aware of you

your build looks good. check out the feats I suggested and tell me what you think of them. SA is a lot of fun. it's great your DM lets you dump all those silly thrower feats.

[shadow_archmagi]

I've just doublechecked Libris Mortis and it is very distinctively LA+2. It's CR+1, but LA+2. Unless you're thinking of a different half-vampire?

Also, I've got the vampire's level adjustment listed in there as levels simply because it occupies a space where two levels COULD be.

I realize I only stunning fist OR grapple, but I was contemplating whether it'd be worth taking the other. Also, being able to Feint as a free action means I can pretty much always sneak attack, and since we're doing Croup-Vandemar, I'll always have a flanking buddy.

Stunning Fist is particularly nice for this build since I can tack it onto whatever else I was already doing (Stunning Fist Elder Mountain Hammer Sneak Attack, for example)

Flick the wrist looks very interesting, thanks.

[Venger]

I've just doublechecked Libris Mortis and it is very distinctively LA+2. It's CR+1, but LA+2. Unless you're thinking of a different half-vampire?

Also, I've got the vampire's level adjustment listed in there as levels simply because it occupies a space where two levels COULD be.

I realize I only stunning fist OR grapple, but I was contemplating whether it'd be worth taking the other. Also, being able to Feint as a free action means I can pretty much always sneak attack, and since we're doing Croup-Vandemar, I'll always have a flanking buddy.

Stunning Fist is particularly nice for this build since I can tack it onto whatever else I was already doing (Stunning Fist Elder Mountain Hammer Sneak Attack, for example)

Flick the wrist looks very interesting, thanks.

you are right about the LA. when I doublechecked it, I accidentally transposed the numbers. my mistake. in that case, your breakdown adds up. there is only 1 half-vampire template

no, that makes sense, that's how LA works, you can do it that way or just write the thing out with only 20-LA lvls, which is how it'll work out with you since half-vampire is an inherited template, so you will have to start the game out with it, you can't "add" it mid-game like with most other templates. (shouldn't be too much of a problem. LA+2 hurts at low lvls but fast healing 1 is pretty kickass then)

oh, I wasn't saying that you shouldn't get them both, just that you should grab stunning fist as your monk bonus feat (since it's almost impossible to qualify for normally) and take improved grapple as a normal feat (perhaps as your lvl 6 feat since you'll already have IUS from monk1)

I must confess, my knowledge of martial manoeuvres is somewhat limited, but that is a good combo making use of the synergy between your classes.

I only suggested invisible fist as a fallback in case your feint fails, in case your DM remembers the seldom-remembered addendum to feinting in combat that makes it difficult against nonhumanoid opponents:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#feint

since SA is your primary damage output, it provides more options in combat than evasion does. evasion depends on your games and if your DM doesn't throw a lot of ref save stuff at you (pretty much just dragonbreath, really) you can skip it and trade it for something else, like invisible fist for moar SA. do you fight a lot of nonhumanoids/animals/nonintelligent creatures? if so, then it is worth considering what to do if/when your feint fails. if you fight mostly or exclusively with humanoids, this is less important.

glad you like it, more than happy to be of assistance