Knowstones: Ridiculously Expensive?

[noparlpf]

Knowstones (DR 333) cost 1000x(spell level squared) to gain a spontaneous caster one extra spell known, as long as they keep the stone on their person. So to learn, say, Magic Missile a Sorcerer has to spend 1.000 gp.
A Wizard could do the same with only 125 gp: 100 gp to write the spell into the spellbook, and 25 gp to purchase a CL 1 scroll of Magic Missile. All this takes is a Spellcraft check of 21 (to decipher the scroll) or a cantrip (Read Magic), and then another Spellcraft check of 16, which should be easy for a 1st-level Wizard.

A 2nd-level knowstone would cost 4.000 gp, and learning a spell from a 2nd-level scroll would cost 150 gp (plus 200 gp to scribe it into the spellbook) and require a DC 17 Spellcraft check.

So is spontaneous casting really worth so much that a single extra spell known should cost so much more? If not, what should knowstones cost?

[Fax Celestis]

The reason knowstones cost so much more is because, while a wizard can only have a finite number of spells prepared (despite it being a large number, there is still a limit), a sorcerer with a bunch of knowstones is able to essentially have them all prepared, all the time.

It's like the Rainbow Warsnake, except your cost is money instead of having a lame base class and a specific prestige class.

[Provengreil]

It's not about cost, but options available at once.

See, the sorceror gets to cast every spell he knows rather than having to guess which ones he needs in the upcoming 24 hours. so where a wizard can theoretically KNOW all the spells, he cannot CAST any of the ones he needs unless he guessed 9 hours ago that he would need it. Therein lies their greatest weakness, even if such a weakness is more theoretical than practical, since many spells can fit multiple problems and some "panic button" spells can fit them all. This is where wizards are truly broken where sorcerors are more limited; A sorceror has to take that "panic button" or multi-use spell at the rather large opportunity cost of a stronger, more immediately useful and specialized spell.

All told, given no information about your table, it's probably better for interparty balance to try and bring the wizard down rather than pull the sorceror up. knowstones should cost about what they do, and that's if you let them exist at all in your game.


EDIT: aaaaand ninja'd.

[noparlpf]

So you are saying that spontaneous casting is worth the difference in number of spells known, like WotC figured?

[Little Brother]

The reason knowstones cost so much more is because, while a wizard can only have a finite number of spells prepared (despite it being a large number, there is still a limit), a sorcerer with a bunch of knowstones is able to essentially have them all prepared, all the time.

It's like the Rainbow Warsnake, except your cost is money instead of having a lame base class and a specific prestige class.Uncanny Forethought.

And a specific 10/10 prestige class that gives you domain stuff and other tasty bonuses along the way.

[DeAnno]

Uncanny Forethought.

That only gives you a number of spontaneous slots equal to your Int modifier though.

I've found Knowstones to be reasonable, though if you have lots of hands free Custom Runestaves are cheaper in most situations. The real ripoff is the Sorc version of Pearls of Power which cost 1500*Level^2 instead of 1000*Level^2.

[Little Brother]

That only gives you a number of spontaneous slots equal to your Int modifier though.

I've found Knowstones to be reasonable, though if you have lots of hands free Custom Runestaves are cheaper in most situations. The real ripoff is the Sorc version of Pearls of Power which cost 1500*Level^2 instead of 1000*Level^2.So? You should have at least 10 spontaneous spell slots that way, which is more than enough.

[Chilingsworth]

Where is Uncanny Forethought printed? And is it a feat, ACF, or PrC class feature?

[Little Brother]

Where is Uncanny Forethought printed? And is it a feat, ACF, or PrC class feature?Feat. Exemplars of Evil, IIRC.

[Fax Celestis]

So? You should have at least 10 spontaneous spell slots that way, which is more than enough.

Right, it's like a reverse Arcane Preparation. The fact that it is a really good feat (just like the Spontaneous Divinations feature from CCham) doesn't change my point: it, in fact, enhances it.

[Little Brother]

Right, it's like a reverse Arcane Preparation. The fact that it is a really good feat (just like the Spontaneous Divinations feature from CCham) doesn't change my point: it, in fact, enhances it.So you're saying that, since the wizard can do it for free, the sorcerer should have to pay tens of thousands of GP to get a mere fraction of it?:smallconfused:

[Godskook]

So you're saying that, since the wizard can do it for free, the sorcerer should have to pay tens of thousands of GP to get a mere fraction of it?:smallconfused:

1.Two feats is not 'free', even if it is what I'd call cheap.

2.I'd consider anything out of Exemplars of Evil to be "DM tech", by default. While technically I suppose it is available to PCs, its one of those things that sits on the edge of the PO/TO border, just by virtue of the book it comes out of. Hence, I wouldn't ever use it as a 'baseline' for determining what's fair or not.

[Little Brother]

1.Two feats is not 'free', even if it is what I'd call cheap.Two flaws at level one, or your two feats at first level if you're a human to make the sorcerer cry sweet, delicious tears.

2.I'd consider anything out of Exemplars of Evil to be "DM tech", by default. While technically I suppose it is available to PCs, its one of those things that sits on the edge of the PO/TO border, just by virtue of the book it comes out of. Hence, I wouldn't ever use it as a 'baseline' for determining what's fair or not.Why not? That's like saying Mindsight or Necrotic Cyst isn't fair because they're from monster books.:smallconfused:

[JaronK]

Why not? That's like saying Mindsight or Necrotic Cyst isn't fair because they're from monster books.:smallconfused:

Except that Mindsight really was created with Monsters in mind, not PCs. The same could be said of the Mother Cyst feat. This doesn't mean they're unavailable to PCs... but it does mean they were probably created without thinking about what PCs could do with them. Bad design choices, really (though Mother Cyst isn't that bad).

RAW you can use them, certainly. But they weren't necessarily thought out as PC tools.

JaronK

[Little Brother]

Except that Mindsight really was created with Monsters in mind, not PCs. The same could be said of the Mother Cyst feat. This doesn't mean they're unavailable to PCs... but it does mean they were probably created without thinking about what PCs could do with them. Bad design choices, really (though Mother Cyst isn't that bad).

RAW you can use them, certainly. But they weren't necessarily thought out as PC tools.

JaronKYes, but that doesn't mean they aren't, as he put it "not fair," much less at "TO level." They were included as feats, and are therefore fair game.

[Godskook]

Yes, but that doesn't mean they aren't, as he put it "not fair," much less at "TO level." They were included as feats, and are therefore fair game.

I did not put it as "not fair", I said it shouldn't be used as a baseline for what is or isn't fair. Those are completely different assertions.