Rainbow Warsnake?

[NeoSeraphi]

Alright, I give up. I keep seeing in the 3.5 forum talk about the "Rainbow Warsnake" prestige class and how it helps warmages function and how it opens up classes by giving them full cleric spellcasting or something.

I've never heard of this class, never read it before in any of my sourcebooks (and my collection is not small) and it's not in the fantastic CrystalKeep Index of Prestige Classes, so what exactly are all of you talking about?

[Darth_Versity]

Its the Rainbow Savant. Complete champion I think (or possibly divine, AFB)

[Little Brother]

Its the Rainbow Savant. Complete champion I think (or possibly divine, AFB)Rainbow Servant, Complete Divine

It works by putting that on a Warmage, so you spontaneously cast the entire cleric list, plus a few domains. Especially tasty since Rainbow Servant is actually full casting.

[Darth_Versity]

Rainbow Servant, Complete Divine

It works by putting that on a Warmage, so you spontaneously cast the entire cleric list, plus a few domains. Especially tasty since Rainbow Servant is actually full casting.

Thats the one. I hate not being near my collection!

[Amphetryon]

Rainbow Servant, Complete Divine

It works by putting that on a Warmage, so you spontaneously cast the entire cleric list, plus a few domains. Especially tasty since Rainbow Servant is actually full casting.
While I agree with the part I emphasized, there's still heated debate over this one. The text and table are not in agreement on Rainbow Servant being full casting, so Rainbow Warsnake and it's Dread Necromancer cousin, the Dread Rainbow, will have more trouble in games where the DM enforces the table over the text. "Text trumps table" is the general rule, but consult your DM, etc.

[NeoSeraphi]

Indeed. 6/10 casting would seem much fairer to me if I was DMing, seeing as it grants access to a completely different spell list. Plus, good luck finding a secret city of coautls...

[Little Brother]

Indeed. 6/10 casting would seem much fairer to me if I was DMing, seeing as it grants access to a completely different spell list. Plus, good luck finding a secret city of coautls...6/10 casting makes it horrible, though. With Versatile Caster, you can get wish as a warmage, arcane disciple gives you miracle, you can nab almost anything, which you give up on as a warmage.

Also, backstory. It already happened:smalltongue:

[NeoSeraphi]

6/10 casting makes it horrible, though. With Versatile Caster, you can get wish as a warmage, arcane disciple gives you miracle, you can nab almost anything, which you give up on as a warmage.

Also, backstory. It already happened:smalltongue:

6/10 casting and full cleric spell list, with spontaneous casting, is not horrible. The one thing clerics can't do very well is blast. If you give up access to 9th level spells (6/10 will still let you get 8th level) for one of the largest spell lists and spontaneous castings in the game, that's completely fair.

[MesiDoomstalker]

6/10 casting and full cleric spell list, with spontaneous casting, is not horrible. The one thing clerics can't do very well is blast. If you give up access to 9th level spells (6/10 will still let you get 8th level) for one of the largest spell lists and spontaneous castings in the game, that's completely fair.

But why give up 9ths if the rules work in your favor to keep 9ths? I understand that from a balance point, but from an optimization standpoint, spontaneous 9ths from 1 limited list and another, tier 1 list, is an awesome goal.

[Little Brother]

6/10 casting and full cleric spell list, with spontaneous casting, is not horrible. The one thing clerics can't do very well is blast. If you give up access to 9th level spells (6/10 will still let you get 8th level) for one of the largest spell lists and spontaneous castings in the game, that's completely fair.I'd rather have Gate, thanks. Or Shapechange. Or Wish. Or any number of other things that do far more than all the 8th level spells combined.

Remember, you can cheat Eclectic Learning to get 9th level spell that way, so a Warmage can nab 9ths.

Remember, in D&D, 9 x 1>8 x 20. A wizard did it.

[NeoSeraphi]

I'd rather have Gate, thanks. Or Shapechange. Or Wish. Or any number of other things that do far more than all the 8th level spells combined.

Remember, you can cheat Eclectic Learning to get 9th level spell that way, so a Warmage can nab 9ths.

Remember, in D&D, 9 x 1>8 x 20. A wizard did it.

Well, personally I enforce text trumps table, so I wouldn't disagree, but this is one situation where I think WotC messed up their text. Seems like they'd want to drop the full progression in favor of the versatility.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'd rather have Gate, thanks. Or Shapechange. Or Wish. Or any number of other things that do far more than all the 8th level spells combined.

Remember, you can cheat Eclectic Learning to get 9th level spell that way, so a Warmage can nab 9ths.

Remember, in D&D, 9 x 1>8 x 20. A wizard did it.

Which is *WHY* most GM's enforce table over text on that particular class. It's a deliberate nerf to bring the class down from the realms of 'broken like Incantatrix or Planar Shepherd' to 'powerful'.

[Cruiser1]

Rainbow Servant is full casting in both text and table. The English printing has it 6/10, however later foreign language editions such as Portuguese correct the discrepancy and have the table 10/10 casting too. Therefore it's full casting both RAW and RAI, although some GM's may still choose to nerf it. Does anybody know where to actually get foreign language printings of books such as Complete Divine?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Rainbow Servant is full casting in both text and table. The English printing has it 6/10, however later foreign language editions such as Portuguese correct the discrepancy and have the table 10/10 casting too. Therefore it's full casting both RAW and RAI, although some GM's may still choose to nerf it. Does anybody know where to actually get foreign language printings of books such as Complete Divine?

I heard it was in fact the opposite, that the table in foreign printings was identical to that of the English copies, and that the foreign text supported the 6/10 progression. It's all hearsay anyway until someone comes up with a picture of that page in a foreign version.


It has a built-in adaptation for it to be based on a different creature instead of Couatls. A few years back a guy played a Warmage/Phoenix Servant in a game I ran, I gave him the Good, Fire, and Renewal domains, he had a lot of fun with it. I'd made it 6/10, but it was a gestalt game so he mixed it with Crusader and (would have) still got 20/20 spellcasting and 9th level maneuvers.

[hex0]

Honestly, if you don't take the cheese to get in early (some of the methods are debatable) Warmage 6/Rainbow Servant 10/XXX 4 isn't horribly overpowered because you suck for a long time until you get to level 16. Meanwhile, a 'normal' cleric could have taken much better prestige classes and would be able to outclass you easily. A Warmage 1/Wizard 4/Ultimate Magus 10 would probably be stronger as well.

[SaintRidley]

I've got a friend studying in Spain who plays. I skyped him this thread and he sent me back the relevant text.

Seems the table still has 6/10 casting, and the text says:


Cuando gana un nuevo nivel de sirviente del arco iris, el personaje gana nuevos conjuros por día como si tambien hubiera ganado un nivel en cualquier clase lanzadora de conjuros que le permitía lanzar conjuros arcanos de 3.er nivel antes de añadir la clase de prestigio. [...] Esto significa básicamente que suma el nivel de sirviente del arco iris al de la otra clase lanzadora de conjuros que tuviera, y segun esto determina el número de conjuros por día.

So text still supports 10/10.

So, at least in Spain text and table are still at odds.

[Cruiser1]

So, at least in Spain text and table are still at odds.English, Spanish, German, French, and Italian are 6/10. Portuguese is 10/10. Does anybody know how many total languages Complete Divine was printed in? For more details on Rainbow Servant and arguments for/against it being full casting, see this thread: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5213.0

[Rejakor]

Oh nooooo, there's a prestige class that lets warmages and dread necro's do what a base cleric 20 has been able to do all game at level 11.

Quickly, nerf it!


They don't even get Turning or Domains. Who cares. And they have to spend 11 levels (over 80% of their career, given not many games go above 13, 14) as a freakin' warmage.

[Yuki Akuma]

Erm.

You are aware that being able to cast absolutely any Cleric spell whenever you damn well please without having to prepare them in advance is a massive improvement over basic Cleric casting, yes?

Who cares about domains? Or turning, for that matter? They're not that important. Clerics have one of the best spell lists in the game, without domains, and being able to spontaneously cast any of those spells is a massive, massive advantage.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Erm.

You are aware that being able to cast absolutely any Cleric spell whenever you have a spell slot of appropriate levelwithout having to prepare them in advance is a massive improvement over basic Cleric casting, yes?

Who cares about domains? Or turning, for that matter? They're not that important. Clerics have one of the best spell lists in the game, without domains, and being able to spontaneously cast any of those spells is a massive, massive advantage.

Fixed that for you. :smallwink: But I agree, spontaneous Cleric without a limited spells known list is ridicoulously more powerful than base cleric. IIRC, you could also do a lot of the stuff arcanes can abuse but divine can't because your still an arcane caster.

[Yuki Akuma]

Oh, also, Warmages have more spell slots than Clerics, too.

[NeoSeraphi]

And you do get 3 domains, by the way, (Good, Law, and Air) from the class. Granted they're pretty subpar, but holy aura is a good spell, in my opinion.

Still...it's kind of funny that even if you go through all that (being a warmage who gains access to every cleric spell in the game) you still can't fly. I guess grow wings helps with that, but it's just amusing to me that you get all that versatility and then you have to rely on air walk.

[Rejakor]

11. LEVELS. of. WARMAGE.


Have you played a warmage in the same group as a cleric or a druid?

holy crap!

It's like playing a frickin' CW Samurai! At least fighter can do some things! You go pew pew for the notmuchdamage and then you get some kind of BFC and you thank the heavens and spam it as hard as you can and then something ignores it and you CRY.


Also, uh, Divine Metamagic says hi. As does the Heroism domain. Oh, and the heavy armour proficiency. Or the decent skills/lvl/free knowledge devotion if you went the cloistered cleric route.

I mean uh, yeah.. if you really really need that Neutralize Poison then it's better to be a Warsnake than it is to be a Cleric who didn't prepare Neutralize Poison... but as a rule I find that competent clerics tend to be too busy breaking faces with their ridiculous glowing doom-mace to be too worried about healing people until after combat... and there's this thing called 'scrolls', that I hear you can get, that let you have the right spell at the right time for a fairly piddly amount of gold AT LEVEL ELEVEN.

I mean.. the sorc/wiz spell list is pretty different. Having the 'right' spell at the right time is actually pretty meaningful from the sorc/wiz list. But the cleric list...? It's samey buffs, samey healing effects, useless alignment/fluff spells, and some crappy crappy blasting that you don't ever want ever. By the time you hit level eleven you have enough prepared spells that you have the ones you want prepared, you have the ones you use a lot in wands, and you have the ones you might need in scrolls.

So yeah.. stripped naked, the warsnake makes a better combat healer than the cleric.

At no point does this make up for ELEVEN. LEVELS. OF. FREAKIN'. WARMAGE.


EDIT: Also, that cleric? He hasn't locked in his levels. He can PrC out at like, level 3. He could pick up some Bone Knight. Or whatchamacallit Templar. Or whatever. Not a huge deal, but there are some nice PrC bonuses out there, that the warsnake just cannot have, as he's plugging his levels into Rainbow Servant in the hope of the big ol' level 11 payday.

[Prime32]

English, Spanish, German, French, and Italian are 6/10. Portuguese is 10/10. Does anybody know how many total languages Complete Divine was printed in? For more details on Rainbow Servant and arguments for/against it being full casting, see this thread: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5213.0I'd heard that the version which used 10/10 was changed by publishers who spotted the inconsistency, not WotC.

[NeoSeraphi]

snip

Sure, you say that. You can say all of that. What about the games that start above 11th level? Then you've got a spontaneous cleric who can also blast and has the ability to go into whatever cleric prestige class he wants (including sacred exorcist to pick up turning for Divine Metamagic, or contemplative to grab the Hero Domain) and he didn't actually suffer at all. He didn't earn that right.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Ok so the complaint about being Warmage for 10 levels (11 levels and you become Cleric with a Warmage's past) then why not use Beguiler or Dread Necromancer? They have better lists to begin with. Dread Necromancer would be the epitome of Necromancers while Beguiler will have plenty of spells where Cleric's lack, mostly Enchantment and Illusion.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

11. LEVELS. of. WARMAGE.

I get what you're saying. It's not 11 levels of Warmage, it's more like grinding through ten levels of Warmage to hit 11th and be competitive. I'll agree that it's not pretty, but I don't think it's quite as bad as you make it out to be. You'll definitely be using early entry, so let's have a look at what you can be doing for the first half of your career (i.e. 90% of the character's play life):

Level 1-3: Spam Magic Missile and thank your lucky stars for Warmage Edge, which contributes just as much damage as the spell itself. Versatile Spellcaster gives you access to 2nd level spells, so maybe Ice Knife or Fireburst plus Warmage Edge if opponents are grouped up. Or, you know, the good ol' light crossbow.

Level 4-5: Versatile Spellcaster-up some (Lesser Rod of Extended) Ice Storm, Sleet Storm, and Stinking Cloud, and shout "I'm helping!" as loud as you can, because it's about time.

Level 6-7: MOAR Ice Storm, Sleet Storm, and Stinking Cloud, or you can VS a Black Tentacles.

Level 8-10: Black Tentacles, Sleet Storm, and Stinking Cloud, but Ice Storm is starting to lose most of its luster by this level. Maybe throw a nuke if the situation calls for it, but the more crowd controls you cast the fewer someone else has to.

Warmage is basically a few strong crowd controls with maybe a nuke thrown in for good measure, and probably worth the grind to 11th level to get the whole Cleric list, but not worth playing (along side Tier 1-2's) otherwise. It's even better if you start play higher than 1st level, preferably 4th+, since that's when you'll first start to feel like you're making a significant contribution.

[JaronK]

Yeah, the 6/10 or 10/10 thing depends on the translation you use. Each is different. Basically, it's pretty hard to figure out intent... My guess is that it was originally either 6/10 or 10/10, and then some other designer decided it was overpowered and changed it... in only one place. But there's no way of knowing which is which.

Honestly, it comes down to what your DM is going to say... I imagine in low OP games the DM will only allow it as a 6/10 (it's still not bad, it's basically a Mystic Theurge kind of build that's still worth it for a Warmage), while high OP games might have DMs that allow it as a 10/10.

JaronK

[Yuki Akuma]

11. LEVELS. of. WARMAGE.

*snip*

Have you ever actually looked at the Cleric spell list? Just curious.

[hex0]

Why 11 levels of warmage? You can enter Rainbow Servant from Warmage 6. :smallconfused:

Even Warmage 6/Rainbow Servant 10 with 6/10 casting isn't that horrible. I mean you have some slots to work with, at least.

[jiriku]

Or heck, split the difference and call it 8/10.

[Claudius Maximus]

Why 11 levels of warmage? You can enter Rainbow Servant from Warmage 6. :smallconfused:

Even Warmage 6/Rainbow Servant 10 with 6/10 casting isn't that horrible. I mean you have some slots to work with, at least.

It's a generalization. It's really Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 10. At 11th level you become good, but before that you're just a warmage.


Or heck, split the difference and call it 8/10.

This is exactly what we did in the Test of Spite. Still pretty much killed the class, since losing one spell level was essentially suicide in most cases.

[Qwertystop]

I think it's that Warmage would need it most.

Dread Necromancer's default strategy is to create undead. An army of undead is a fairly useful strategy, so they don't necessarially need the alternatives from a Cleric list. At a glance, I also see nothing on the Cleric list to help that other than Inflict spells to heal the army.


Beguiler's default strategy is a combination of illusions and enchantments. It's fairly good until most enemies are immune to mind-affecting, and illusions are still good past then until you hit continuous True Seeing. Again, the Cleric list cannot bolster this strategy, and alternates aren't necessary.

Warmage's default strategy is to blast. This is a poor strategy unless you optimize it to the point of one-hitting everything, which Warmages can't do. They need the alternates provided by the Cleric list.

[Wings of Peace]

What's all this hearsay about Warmages? I'm only familiar with my Beguiling Rainbow. :smallsmile:

[Tvtyrant]

What's all this hearsay about Warmages? I'm only familiar with my Beguiling Rainbow. :smallsmile:

I call it the rainbow shadowsnake, but its all good :D

[NeoSeraphi]

Why 11 levels of warmage? You can enter Rainbow Servant from Warmage 6. :smallconfused:


He's talking about entering the class as a warmage 2 through questionable interpretations of the RAW and then getting your cleric casting at level 12 instead of level 16. The 11 levels of warmage is referring to the 11 levels you spent "only" having warmage casting.

[NeoSeraphi]

What would you all think about a duskblade entry though?

[MesiDoomstalker]

What would you all think about a duskblade entry though?

Clerics do have a lot of touch range spells. Too bad you'd have to be epic to get full-round channeling and you'd have to have several epic feats just to get 9ths. On a Duskblade base, I'd personally let it be 10/10. Your not getting 7-9 and your missing out on full-attack channeling which limits you quite a bit.

[gbprime]

What would you all think about a duskblade entry though?

10/10, definately. Duskblades only get 5th level spells tops and they don't get all of them on their list, they have to pick a spell known at each level. So loading up all cleric spells... not game breaking.

[Gotterdammerung]

Oh nooooo, there's a prestige class that lets warmages and dread necro's do what a base cleric 20 has been able to do all game at level 11.

Quickly, nerf it!


They don't even get Turning or Domains. Who cares. And they have to spend 11 levels (over 80% of their career, given not many games go above 13, 14) as a freakin' warmage.

Um your missing several points.

The low skill prerequs let you use many ways to cast above your level, the least cheasy being human with flaws and earth spell sanctum spell to make the prerequs at first lvl.

The prestige class itself gives you several domains.


Being able to spontaneously cast from the cleric list and know all spells on the cleric list is much stronger than a regular cleric who has to prep specific spells.

The prestige class allows you to cast both arcane and divine spells. Making your warmage both an arcane casting class AND a divine casting class. Opens up a can of worms for prestige classing. massive dips for extra domains, or massive dips for even more class spells known (prestige bard, prestige paladin, prestige ranger [or prestige mystic ranger] for instance)

If you want turn attempts 1 warmage/10 rainbow servant/1 Sacred Exorcist/8 whatever you want.



If you think this combo is no big deal, it probably just means you don't fully understand its potential.

Personally I like it better as 1 sorcerer/10 rainbow servant/1 sacred exorcist/ 9 geomancer

This allows me to set up combos like

Earth bound Persistant extended delay death

+Earth bound persistant extended Effulgent epuration

+ the stage 4 drift Boar's Ferocity


It also lets me ignore material components choosing to use a divine focus instead. Making a lot of spells more cost effective.

As well as other sorcerer cheese. Like swift spell + standard metamagic'd spell. And arcane fusion abuse. (the fusions get real fun when you have the entire cleric list of spells known.)

[NeoSeraphi]

As well as other sorcerer cheese. Like swift spell + standard metamagic'd spell. And arcane fusion abuse. (the fusions get real fun when you have the entire cleric list of spells known.)

You can't do this. You just gain access to the cleric spell list, you don't learn every spell on it automatically. Sorcerers still have to pick and choose from the cleric spell list every time they gain access to a new spell.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Um your missing several points.

The low skill prerequs let you use many ways to cast above your level, the least cheasy being human with flaws and earth spell sanctum spell to make the prerequs at first lvl.

The prestige class itself gives you several domains.


Being able to spontaneously cast from the cleric list and know all spells on the cleric list is much stronger than a regular cleric who has to prep specific spells.

The prestige class allows you to cast both arcane and divine spells. Making your warmage both an arcane casting class AND a divine casting class. Opens up a can of worms for prestige classing. massive dips for extra domains, or massive dips for even more class spells known (prestige bard, prestige paladin, prestige ranger [or prestige mystic ranger] for instance)

If you want turn attempts 1 warmage/10 rainbow servant/1 Sacred Exorcist/8 whatever you want.



If you think this combo is no big deal, it probably just means you don't fully understand its potential.

Personally I like it better as 1 sorcerer/10 rainbow servant/1 sacred exorcist/ 9 geomancer

This allows me to set up combos like

Earth bound Persistant extended delay death

+Earth bound persistant extended Effulgent epuration

+ the stage 4 drift Boar's Ferocity


It also lets me ignore material components choosing to use a divine focus instead. Making a lot of spells more cost effective.

As well as other sorcerer cheese. Like swift spell + standard metamagic'd spell. And arcane fusion abuse. (the fusions get real fun when you have the entire cleric list of spells known.)

This build doesn't work. Sorcerer's don't have spells known of 2nd level till 4th level and thus can't use the early entry tricks to get into Rainbow Servant. And as NeoSeraphi said, you don't gain access to all Cleric spells, you gain access to choose Cleric spells. Its the same with Wizard, but far less frustrating as you could just scribe a small library of Cleric Spellbooks (at fairly substainial cost too).

[Gotterdammerung]

The early entry still works.

0 lvl spell
+ earth spell + heighten
=2nd lvl spell
+sanctum spell
=3rd lvl spell.


But your right about the spells known part thanks for pointing it out.

Was building on bad info.

You could still salvage it through warmage (or dread necro or beguiler) with A level of prestige paladin of the arcane order
regaining effulgent efulation.

But it would be harder to find a way to get the fusions.

So the super defense trick could still work.

[kulosle]

so i really like the idea of dipping this character into all the prestigious classes, just for the sake of having all of the spell lists. it's bee said before that adding paladin or ranger to your spell list makes it so you still have useful things to do with your low level spells. i wouldn't do this if it wasn't still 10/10 or else i would also loose 8th level spells

something fancy like beguiler 1/rainbow servant 10/prestigious bard 1/prestigious paladin 1/prestigious ranger 1/sacred exorcist 1/mind bender 1/contemplative 1/ i know there are other classes that give either bonus spells or domains just can't think of them at the moment. any who, this character would still have sooo many spells. i really want to try this now. good thing my dm enforces text over chart.

wait scratch everything. the skypledge class from the races of the wild. am i reading this correctly, can i have a have someone with access to cleric and druid spell list (even if its a limited amount a day, that is all you need for the druid list)? so yeah 7 of that to be sure.
beguiler 1/rainbow servant 10/skypledged 7/ sacred exorcist 1/ prestigious bard 1

oh wait it require you to be raptoran which prevents you from doing the first level trick. so it would have to be beguiler 3/rainbow servant 10/skypledged 7 not as cool but still.

[llamamushroom]

Looking through my Complete Divine, I'm pretty sure that it was originally intended as 6/10 casting, and they left it out of the text (see the table for the Rainbow Servant, and table 2-1: Divine Prestige Classes [p20], which lists the French Target under "moderate spellcasting"). That doesn't counter the "text trumps table" argument, as both pieces of evidence are tables, but it is my personal interpretation.

On the other hand, if I were playing/DMing, I'd go with 10/10. Because that character would be awesome.

[kardar233]

What happens if you dip Prestige Paladin/Ranger and grab SotAO on a Warsnake? Does that mean you can spont-cast the entire Wizard list too?

Are there any good PrCs to take on the way up to Rainbow Servant?

[Acanous]

yes, if you had Arcane Order on top, you would spont cast from both lists. You'd still have to spend a round to get the spell from Arcane lists, but yeah. Could be fun.

[erikun]

something fancy like beguiler 1/rainbow servant 10/prestigious bard 1/prestigious paladin 1/prestigious ranger 1/sacred exorcist 1/mind bender 1/contemplative 1/ i know there are other classes that give either bonus spells or domains just can't think of them at the moment. any who, this character would still have sooo many spells. i really want to try this now. good thing my dm enforces text over chart.
Prestige Paladin and Prestige Ranger require divine spellcasting, and only add spells to your divine spellcasting list. Rainbow Servant only gives you access to the Cleric's spell list; it does not make you a divine caster.

Contemplative also requires divine spellcasting. Divine Oracle is probably a better choice. I'm not sure what spells the Mindbender is supposed to give you.

There is also the Frost Mage from Frostburn, which grants you a handful of additional spells as well.

[Sception]

Optimizing of the spontaneous theme casters is generally about adding spells to their lists, since that's what they lack, and adding more spells gets the most benefit from their casting style and per day uses. It's not so necessary with Beguiler or Dread Necro, since their gimmicks are still largely functional over the functional level range (although necros can be highly campaign & combat disruptive if they don't show restraint), but for the war mage, well, their gimmick mostly isn't all that functional at all, so its much more important to them.

Rainbow Servant is the best way to add spells to lists, so its the ideal one for these classes to go for (particularly war mage, which needs it most). Well, except for Dread Necro - Rainbow Servant requires good alignment, Dread necro forbids you from starting with it, so you're already going through premeditated alignment shifting shenanigans before you even consider that frequent use of [evil] spells in, even in the service of 'good' goals, in most campaigns is going to bump a character down to neutral anyways. It's just more bother then its worth for them.

Anyway, yeah, expanded spell lists is what war mages need to function, and the Servant is the best at doing it, so it's practically the default build for them. The 10/10 is raw and, by Q&A, rai. DMs are free to nerf anything, of course, but 8/10 is a serious blow, and if you're going to cut it to 6/10, you might as well just ban it outright, because you've turned it into a trap. Giving up four caster levels is simply unacceptable for any caster, even war mages, and a character who can cast any fifth level cleric spell they want spontaneously isn't even remotely equivalent to a character casting 7th level spells (or even 8th level! Remember that War mages already have the slower spell level advancement of a spontaneous caster).

There are other, less efficient ways to go about it. You can make a semi-effective war mage as like, I don't know, a sandshaper / divine oracle with a couple arcane devotee feats? I mean, losing Radiant Servant is a blow, and an unnecessary one, imo (although that will depend on the relative op level of the rest of the party) but one that can be mitigated somewhat by taking other choices. But don't go for the 6/10 progression. If you don't like it, then ban it. I mean, there are perfectly legitimate reasons to do so. Have you ever played in a game with a rainbow warsnake? They can take as much real world time every single round flipping through half a dozen books to choose what to cast that turn as the cleric spends each morning choosing spells for the entire day. If you allow the rainbow warsnake, you better be ready to introduce a turn timer.

But if you're going to ban it, ban it. Don't try to trick players into jaying themselves over by offering an option that looks like exactly what they need but then cripples them in the process of giving it.

[MesiDoomstalker]

war mage...
war mage...
warblades...
warblades ...
Warmages...
warblade

WAIT! Warblades can take Rainbow Servant and gain access to full Cleric casting?! Thats as broken as Arcane Swordsage! To be honest, I rofl'ed while reading your post. How could you start right, mix up with a widly different class, go back to doing it right then back to wrong again? :smalltongue:

[Sception]

Two days without any sleep, due to a plumbing disaster. Saturday night was spent fixing the problem & running a wet-dry vac & later carpet cleaner, sunday night was spent trying to sleep and being unable to due to the combined mechanical noise of three dehumidifiers, a heater, and two fans.

It was terrible. :smalleek:

[MesiDoomstalker]

Two days without any sleep, due to a plumbing disaster. Saturday night was spent fixing the problem & running a wet-dry vac & later carpet cleaner, sunday night was spent trying to sleep and being unable to due to the combined mechanical noise of three dehumidifiers, a heater, and two fans.

It was terrible. :smalleek:

Understandable. It was too funny not to say anything. I was just tickling your ribs, so to speak.

[Rejakor]

Oh no, the Good domain. How incredibly powerful.


Basically, it boils down to this. If you've banned DMM, and Divine Power, and your cleric tends to sit in the back row and cast buff and heal spells, and maybe the occasional Corpse Candle, and the rest of your party is at a comparable optimization level, and you're starting the game at level 11+, then yeah, sure, a Warsnake might be on par or above par. Assuming that he uses better spells than the cleric does.. i.e. if you handed them both cleric characters, the warsnake's player would still be doing better... then yeah sure. The cleric spell list just doesn't have enough situational spells that actually matter (unlike the wizard spell list) to make a big enough difference with spont vs prepared. With spontaneous cure spells, the cleric is filling his prepared slots with BFC, buffs, and situational spells anyway. Corpse Candle or Delay Poison are the first spells to get cured out, that's if you're being dumb and not just wandwhipping away the hit point damage.

[Sception]

no offense taken, I could use the chuckle. To be honest, I'm apt to mistype warmage as warmage warblade and vice versa at the best of times.

[edit] ok, wow, it is clearly time for bed.

[MesiDoomstalker]

no offense taken, I could use the chuckle. To be honest, I'm apt to mistype warmage as warmage warblade and vice versa at the best of times.

[edit] ok, wow, it is clearly time for bed.

Must resist urge to laugh uncontrollably.....I failed. :smallbiggrin:

[NeoSeraphi]

Oh no, the Good domain. How incredibly powerful.


Basically, it boils down to this. If you've banned DMM, and Divine Power, and your cleric tends to sit in the back row and cast buff and heal spells, and maybe the occasional Corpse Candle, and the rest of your party is at a comparable optimization level, and you're starting the game at level 11+, then yeah, sure, a Warsnake might be on par or above par. Assuming that he uses better spells than the cleric does.. i.e. if you handed them both cleric characters, the warsnake's player would still be doing better... then yeah sure. The cleric spell list just doesn't have enough situational spells that actually matter (unlike the wizard spell list) to make a big enough difference with spont vs prepared. With spontaneous cure spells, the cleric is filling his prepared slots with BFC, buffs, and situational spells anyway. Corpse Candle or Delay Poison are the first spells to get cured out, that's if you're being dumb and not just wandwhipping away the hit point damage.

Yes, but clerics can't spontaneously heal. They also can't spontaneously cast restoration or resurrection, and if you haven't prepared those, your allies pay the price (if you're really unlucky, they can pay it with actual level loss, which you can't heal).

Not to mention the ridiculous amount of spell slots a warmage gets, which means you get the cleric spell list, only much more so. Add that to the fact that the only thing the cleric doesn't do well is blast, and the warmage has the spells to blast, and you have a seriously powerful character. Maybe not as powerful as an actual cleric, but why should we only be comparing caster to caster here?

People say "Oh no, I won't get 9th level spells if I only have 6/10 progression!" but having 8th and lower level spells will still make you better than the rest of the party, assuming you're the only caster, which, seeing as you have spontaneous crowd control, summoning, healing, and blasting, you could easily cover most of the party's caster bases.

[dextercorvia]

Prestige Paladin and Prestige Ranger require divine spellcasting, and only add spells to your divine spellcasting list. Rainbow Servant only gives you access to the Cleric's spell list; it does not make you a divine caster.

Contemplative also requires divine spellcasting. Divine Oracle is probably a better choice. I'm not sure what spells the Mindbender is supposed to give you.

There is also the Frost Mage from Frostburn, which grants you a handful of additional spells as well.

Actually, Rainbow Servant says the spells that aren't on a PHB arcane list are cast as divine spells.

[Sception]

It is entirely possible for a T1 caster to burn five levels on commoner and still end up better off then your average T4 or T5 build, yes.

That still doesn't make spontaneous casting of the full cleric list worth a five level delay on new spell levels when compared to a normal cleric. (the normal one level delay for spontaneous casters plus four lost caster levels from a nerfed RS), or even a four level hit compared to just being a warmage, meh as they are, to begin with. The 11th level nerfed RS can cast third level spells. The 11th level cleric can cast 6th level spells. The 11th level RS may have more first and second level spells per day, but not more 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 6th level spells, or even more spells total. And your party on the whole certainly isn't better off in that case, either. And if the game is assuming a party with 11th level casters capable of casting 5th and 6th level spells, then the party relying on a nerfed rainbow warsnake to provide all of their casting requirements is going to be in a very bad situation indeed.

If you don't want the RWS in your campaign, by all means, ban it. It elevates a Warmage from T3/4 to T1, and that's a hideous power boost to get even from the capstone of a 10 level PrC, to the point that if it's allowed, War mages very well might feel obligated to take it, and that's no fun.

But don't think that it puts the character outside of the scope of what the T1's already bring to the table. And don't hold out the 6/10 progression version and try to pretend that it's raw, or rai, or anything other then a way to make your character worse.

[Gnaeus]

Um your missing several points.

The low skill prerequs let you use many ways to cast above your level, the least cheasy being human with flaws and earth spell sanctum spell to make the prerequs at first lvl.

Yes, in some campaigns, that might work.

In my campaign, that character's tower of cards collapses the moment he steps out of his sanctum, and suddenly he is a first level sorcerer with a bunch of extra HD filled with class features and casting that he no longer qualifies for.

Depending on group power level, I may or may not allow 10/10 warsnakes. I would never allow early entry to anything with versatile spellcaster or sanctum spell (OK, I would allow sanctum spell, but it is really only useful for NPCs. See above). I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. Assuming early entry to determine how effective the class is poisons the rest of the debate.

[gbprime]

yes, if you had Arcane Order on top, you would spont cast from both lists. You'd still have to spend a round to get the spell from Arcane lists, but yeah. Could be fun.

You're still limited by what's in the spellbook you're using though.

[Yuki Akuma]

You're still limited by what's in the spellbook you're using though.

No you're not. Mage of the Arcane Order can retrieve any Sorcerer/Wizard spell with his Spell Pool class feature.

[Analytica]

No you're not. Mage of the Arcane Order can retrieve any Sorcerer/Wizard spell with his Spell Pool class feature.

Technically, it says all 1-9th-level Sor/Wis spells from the PHB plus any others the DM chooses to add. Just as some splatbooks technically say that the DM may choose to add the spells in that book to the game, possibly requiring additional prerequisites to access them.

[kulosle]

looking at the requirements for the prestigious classes, you can still take prestigious ranger if you get the animal bonus domain or does anyone else know how to get calm animal on you spell list? prestigious paladin requires that you take level in exorcist for turn undead. so beguiler 1/rainbow servant 10/exorcist 1/ prestigious paladin 4/ contemplative 1/prestigious mystic ranger 1/prestigious bard 1/x 1; sound like fun to me.

[Heliomance]

Yes, in some campaigns, that might work.

In my campaign, that character's tower of cards collapses the moment he steps out of his sanctum, and suddenly he is a first level sorcerer with a bunch of extra HD filled with class features and casting that he no longer qualifies for.


Why? If you let him do it in the first place, then Rainbow Servant meets its own prereqs, and so when he steps out of his sanctum he retains the ability to cast whatever level spells it is he needs to cast, and so doesn't stop being able to cast them.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Why? If you let him do it in the first place, then Rainbow Servant meets its own prereqs, and so when he steps out of his sanctum he retains the ability to cast whatever level spells it is he needs to cast, and so doesn't stop being able to cast them.

This is the correct logic to use to justify retraining early entry tricks once youve progressed far enough in the prestige class to self qualify. I particularly like this with Open Minded and skill heavy PrCs.

[Gotterdammerung]

Prestige Paladin and Prestige Ranger require divine spellcasting, and only add spells to your divine spellcasting list. Rainbow Servant only gives you access to the Cleric's spell list; it does not make you a divine caster.

Except that the 10th lvl ability of the rainbow servant states that divine spells that are not on your normal list are cast as divine spells. This instantly turns your base spell casting class into a divine casting class as well as an arcane casting class. Why? Because you warmage casts arcane spells as arcane spells, divine spells as arcane spells, AND divine spells as divine spells.

On top of that, if you choose go my style and head into geomancer, you further blur the lines between arcane and divine.

Bottom line though, If your a caster who casts divine spells as divine spells, you are a divine caster. If you are a caster who casts arcane spells as arcane spells you are an arcane caster. If you do both, you are both.


Yes, in some campaigns, that might work.

In my campaign, that character's tower of cards collapses the moment he steps out of his sanctum, and suddenly he is a first level sorcerer with a bunch of extra HD filled with class features and casting that he no longer qualifies for.

You are welcome to change/nerfbat anything you see fit, as GM.

I would hope that as GM you would warn your players that you are going to change how a feat works. Not just let them take it and then go HAHAH YOUR BONED!

But assuming you left the feat as is. The combination works.

First of all, lets examine the language of the prerequisite. "Able to cast 3rd lvl arcane spells."

Now lets make a point about the degree of prerequisites. Prerequs only check character potential. NOT current potential. For instance, if my prestige class says I need to "be able to cast dimension door" I do not need to ALWAYS HAVE D. Door prepped. I only need to have the capability to prep and cast it.

Earth spell- If I prepare a spell with the heighten metamagic while in contact with the earth, My heightens have a stronger effect. For this example, I prep a 0 lvl spell and heighten it to 1st lvl. Earth spell boosts it to a 2nd lvl spell.


Sanctum spell- a sanctum is any place I take 24 hours to link up with. If I apply the metamagic feat Sanctum spell to a spell that i cast inside my sanctum, then it is treated as 1 lvl higher spell. For this combo, at the time Sanctum spell is applied, My acid splash is a 2nd lvl spell. Sanctum spell makes it treated as a 3rd lvl acid splash.

I don't ever have to actually cast this 3rd lvl acid splash. Just the fact that I CAN DO IT. Prerequ's me for the prestige class.

The prestige class asks the question, Are you able to cast a 3rd lvl arcane spell?

The answer is, Yes I am able to cast a 3rd lvl spell. (I have to go to my sanctum to do it, but I am able to do it.)


Even If you decide to change prerequisites to constant capability checks. I can still level up in rainbow servant. Under these new rules I won't gain any class abilities for my levels until I can meet the prerequs again. But when I reach warmage1/rainbow servant 5 my natural spellcasting confirms the prerequ. For this to work I simply need to stop for 24 hours and create a sanctum so I can lvl up each of the 5 rainbow servant levels. Upon stopping for the 5th time, I will gain the natural casting to support the prerequ.

But note, constant prerequ checks will have massive unintended side effects for other classes. For instance, A frenzied berserker who take a penalty to bab from power attack, will be at risk of losing his prestige class abilities if the penalty lowers his bab to lower than the bab prerequ of frenzied berserker. A teflamar shadowlord will lose all of his class abilities if he runs out of teleports for the day. All prestige classes that say "able to prepare arcane(or divine) spells" will cease to function immediately after the character has prepared their spells (because they now can no longer prepare spells until the next day). And various other glitches. The prerequ system was not meant to be constantly checked. They are questions of POTENTIAL.

[NeoSeraphi]

But note, constant prerequ checks will have massive unintended side effects for other classes. For instance, A frenzied berserker who take a penalty to bab from power attack, will be at risk of losing his prestige class abilities if the penalty lowers his bab to lower than the bab prerequ of frenzied berserker.

I agree with the rest of your post, but not this part, as the wording of Power Attack is very clear. You are not taking a penalty to your Base Attack Bonus. You are taking a penalty to your attack rolls, with a limit equal to your Base Attack Bonus. If you were actually penalizing your Base Attack Bonus, you would get no iterative attacks and would temporarily lose BAB prereq feats.

[Gotterdammerung]

I agree with the rest of your post, but not this part, as the wording of Power Attack is very clear. You are not taking a penalty to your Base Attack Bonus. You are taking a penalty to your attack rolls, with a limit equal to your Base Attack Bonus. If you were actually penalizing your Base Attack Bonus, you would get no iterative attacks and would temporarily lose BAB prereq feats.

Just a small mistake, the rest still applies.

After re-reading power attack from memory it is a penalty to attack restricted by bab. So wouldn't work the way I presented it.

But there are many working examples.

Please resist the urge to launch a Argumentum ad logicam my way over this small oversight.


Some more examples to make up for it.

#1 if turning attempts is a prerequ, you would lose all the prestige class features once you used all of your turning attempts.

#2 evasion prerequ- lose your class features if you're helpless. (if the prerequ states "evasion as a class feature" then you are safe. But not all of them do.)

#3 Any spell casting prerequ - lose class features if you cast all your prerequ spells.


ect ect.

[NeoSeraphi]

Some more examples to make up for it.

#1 if turning attempts is a prerequ, you would lose all the prestige class features once you used all of your turning attempts.

#2 evasion prerequ- lose your class features if you're helpless. (if the prerequ states "evasion as a class feature" then you are safe. But not all of them do.)

#3 Any spell casting prerequ - lose class features if you cast all your prerequ spells.


ect ect.

You're right, if the DM reads the rules of qualifications like that it can mess a class up big time, and any DM who does things like that wouldn't be any fun to play with.

That's just the third time in the last few days I saw someone refer to Power Attack as a "penalty to your Base Attack Bonus" so the rules lawyer in me had to step in. It doesn't make you any less right.

[jindra34]

Except that the 10th lvl ability of the rainbow servant states that divine spells that are not on your normal list are cast as divine spells. This instantly turns your base spell casting class into a divine casting class as well as an arcane casting class. Why? Because you warmage casts arcane spells as arcane spells, divine spells as arcane spells, AND divine spells as divine spells.



So would that enable you to go into Mystic Theurge or a similar class and select the same class for both the Divine and Arcane sides?

[Gotterdammerung]

So would that enable you to go into Mystic Theurge or a similar class and select the same class for both the Divine and Arcane sides?

Technically, yes. But there are certain things... you should not do.

[MesiDoomstalker]

So would that enable you to go into Mystic Theurge or a similar class and select the same class for both the Divine and Arcane sides?

While you could take Mystic Theurge, it would not "double over" the casting progression, at least not how I see it. Its a "bonus from same source" issue. Both are "bonuses" to casting from the same source, i.e. class. Since its the same casting thats being progressed by both sides, each level overlaps with its self. But thats my interpretation.

[jindra34]

Technically, yes. But there are certain things... you should not do.

I'd expect encyclopedia's to go flying at my head for doing that, but it does open up an option if your DM is sticking to the table for Rainbow Servant to recover those lost caster levels.

[Qwertystop]

That goes much further than recovering lost caster levels. You end up with 6 more caster levels than HD.

[SaintRidley]

That goes much further than recovering lost caster levels. You end up with 6 more caster levels than HD.

There is precedent for divine and arcane spells being treated differently - see things like the Ur-Priest's spell resistance against divine spellcasting only. Perhaps Mystic Theurge could work on a rainbow Warsnake along the same lines, effectively only advancing spellcasting by 1 per level but still advancing the arcane and divine separately?

Although if you just want to be silly in epic levels for no real reason, pick up some wizard casting, go ultimate magus (warmage as spontaneous, wizard as prepared) then go mystic theurge (warmage as divine, wizard as arcane).

No actual reason to do it. It's just funny.

[Qwertystop]

That made me realize something. There are many spontaneous arcane classes, and several spontaneous divine ones, but there's only 4 prepared casters of any type, aren't there? Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Archivist?

[arguskos]

That made me realize something. There are many spontaneous arcane classes, and several spontaneous divine ones, but there's only 4 prepared casters of any type, aren't there? Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Archivist?
Fun fact: Paladins and Rangers prepare spells. :smalltongue:

[Yuki Akuma]

Spirit Shamans sort-of prepare spells.

All martial adepts prepare their maneuvers.

All incarnum classes prepare their soulmelds.

[Siosilvar]

Fun fact: Paladins and Rangers prepare spells. :smalltongue:

As do Wu Jen. IIRC, Spirit Shamans have a weird hybrid; they get spontaneous casting from spells that they choose daily.

[NeoSeraphi]

That made me realize something. There are many spontaneous arcane classes, and several spontaneous divine ones, but there's only 4 prepared casters of any type, aren't there? Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Archivist?

Ranger, Paladin, Wu Jen (Complete Arcane), Death Mage (Dragon Compendium), Blackguard, and I'm probably missing a few.

[Yuki Akuma]

As do Wu Jen. IIRC, Spirit Shamans have a weird hybrid; they get spontaneous casting from spells that they choose daily.

And, unlike all other spontaneous classes, Spirit Shamans have to 'learn' their spells pre-metamagic'd.

This does mean they can use Quicken without shenanigans, though.

[Qwertystop]

Ah.... wow....

I missed a lot.

Initiators and meldshapers don't count. Those aren't spells.

[dextercorvia]

Ranger, Paladin, Wu Jen (Complete Arcane), Death Mage (Dragon Compendium), Blackguard, and I'm probably missing a few.

All of the Divine half-casters, to my knowledge, things like Consecrated Harrier, Holy Liberator, Pious templar, and Temple Raider of Olidammara. Also, the quick nines divine classes: Blighter, ur-priest divine crusader, and Apostle of Peace.

[NeoSeraphi]

Right, and now we compare that list to the "plenty" of spontaneous casters:

Assassin, bard, sorcerer, duskblade, warmage, dread necro, beguiler, healer, favored soul, spirit shaman (Spirit Shaman should really count for both lists), shugenja, and hexblade.

I think prepared wins.

[Qwertystop]

Wow...

My splat-fu is horrible today. Just a few minutes ago I said that Warblades get proficiency with all simple and martial weapons...

[dextercorvia]

Right, and now we compare that list to the "plenty" of spontaneous casters:

Assassin, bard, sorcerer, duskblade, warmage, dread necro, beguiler, healer, favored soul, spirit shaman (Spirit Shaman should really count for both lists), shugenja, and hexblade.

I think prepared wins.

Spontaneous gets the one-off Arcane half casters like: Vigilante, Unseelie Dark Hunter, and Trapsmith, and the arcane accelerated casters: Sublime Chord, Nar Demonbinder, and Suel Arcanamach (it kind of fits both ways).

We can add Chameleon and Knight of the Chalice to the prepared list.

[Gotterdammerung]

This seems like a possibility

warmage1/rainbow servant 10/ heartfire fanner1/sublime chord1/mystic theurge7 (boosting warmage on the divine side and SC on the arcane side.)

Using precocious apprentice and sanctum spell for early entry
and taking Apprentice:Performer at 1st lvl to gain perform and diplomacy as permanent class skills for prerequs.


4-8th lvl sublime chord spells (picked from sorcerer/wizard spell list (including sorcerer specific spells like arcane fusion and arcane fusion greater)

1-9th warmage spells (spells known = all warmage and cleric spells).

CL 27 (or higher depending on how you like to do SC combined lvls math)


(eventually dark chaos shuffle out the early entry and apprentice feat.)

[Zaq]

You're all wrong about Healers. They're prepared.

Yes, they SHOULD be spontaneous, but they're not.

[kulosle]

problem with that is that you already have to take two flaws and be human to have enough feats for the early entry trick of rainbow servant. but yes you totally could do something similar to that. but seeing as how we already have the wizard spell list attached to this monstrosity i don't think its truly necessary. i thought the mystic theurge said that they had to be separate classes but it doesn't so yeah by RAW you totally can. now isn't that just the sharpest cheese you've ever tasted. is there a better dual caster class to choose. would this combo make dread rainbow true necromancer worth it?

[NeoSeraphi]

You're all wrong about Healers. They're prepared.

Yes, they SHOULD be spontaneous, but they're not.

*faceplams* With that tiny spell list? Geez, and I thought that class couldn't get any worse...

[NeoSeraphi]

problem with that is that you already have to take two flaws and be human to have enough feats for the early entry trick of rainbow servant. but yes you totally could do something similar to that. but seeing as how we already have the wizard spell list attached to this monstrosity i don't think its truly necessary. i thought the mystic theurge said that they had to be separate classes but it doesn't so yeah by RAW you totally can. now isn't that just the sharpest cheese you've ever tasted. is there a better dual caster class to choose. would this combo make dread rainbow true necromancer worth it?

Dread Rainbow True Necro? No way. You have to be good to be a Rainbow Servant, which means no more animate dead or create undead. There would be no point to that at all.

[Zaq]

*faceplams* With that tiny spell list? Geez, and I thought that class couldn't get any worse...

The one saving grace is that having prepped casting lets them use sanctified spells, which increases their repertoire a bit. (Still should be spontaneous, though.)

[kulosle]

but once your're done advancing rainbow servant you don't need to be good anymore. so then the usual down side to true necromancer of being horrid spell progression, but awesome (but not worth it), class features is no long the issue. this is actually better spell progression. i think i'd let a player do this in a cheese campaign just to see how it goes.

[Morph Bark]

Dread Rainbow True Necro? No way. You have to be good to be a Rainbow Servant, which means no more animate dead or create undead. There would be no point to that at all.

You can cast [Evil] spells even if you aren't evil yourself. The only problem is that Dread Necros need to be nongood, so they cannot enter the PrC at all.


WAIT! Warblades can take Rainbow Servant and gain access to full Cleric casting?! Thats as broken as Arcane Swordsage! To be honest, I rofl'ed while reading your post. How could you start right, mix up with a widly different class, go back to doing it right then back to wrong again? :smalltongue:

Arcane Swordsage with Rainbow Servant!

[kulosle]

but again take a level in it then become good, because there is no down side, and then take rainbow servant. or does not being able to take levels in it not let you add spell casting to it?

[hamishspence]

but again take a level in it then become good, because there is no down side

In some splatbooks, if you no longer qualify for a class or PRC, you lose all supernatural and spellcasting abilities granted by it.

Though for some PRCs (dragon disciple) this can produce weird effects when the capstone is reached- which might require the DM to specify "except in this kind of case".

Some classes explicitly specify that even if you no longe qualify, you retain all class abilities (bard).

So it may depend on DMs interpretation, as to if a Dread Necromancer retains all spellcasting abilities when they become Good.

[Little Brother]

You can cast [Evil] spells even if you aren't evil yourself. The only problem is that Dread Necros need to be nongood, so they cannot enter the PrC at all.They have to start non-good. They can migrate.

[Tsuzurao]

The restriction isn't a "Must be [X alignment]" restriction. It's a "Cannot be [X alignment]" one, and the restriction is "Cannot be Chaotic or Evil". There are still two alignments that a Dread Necromancer/Rainbow Servant can be (Lawful Neutral or True Neutral).

[SaintRidley]

Dread Rainbow True Necro? No way. You have to be good to be a Rainbow Servant, which means no more animate dead or create undead. There would be no point to that at all.

Speculating a game where alignment is justly thrown out... (and anyway, all DN requires is nongood; RS only requires nonevil and nonchaotic, so LN and N are acceptable for Dread Rainbows)

True Dread Rainbow... so you're into TN at level 12.

DN 1/RS10/TN 9 gets us, under the pungent cheddar assumption that we can double stack casting advancement, 14 levels of casting advancement from 9 TN levels.

So we cast as a 25th level DN with three free domains, cleric spells spontaneous, + 3 CL on necromancy spells and the and a 90 foot aura of desecration. Oh, and Divine Metamagic to go with your rebuking.

[Heliomance]

Dread Rainbow True Necro? No way. You have to be good to be a Rainbow Servant, which means no more animate dead or create undead. There would be no point to that at all.

Hellbred maybe?

[Gotterdammerung]

problem with that is that you already have to take two flaws and be human to have enough feats for the early entry trick of rainbow servant. but yes you totally could do something similar to that. but seeing as how we already have the wizard spell list attached to this monstrosity i don't think its truly necessary. i thought the mystic theurge said that they had to be separate classes but it doesn't so yeah by RAW you totally can. now isn't that just the sharpest cheese you've ever tasted. is there a better dual caster class to choose. would this combo make dread rainbow true necromancer worth it?

I was using precocious apprentice and sanctum spell for early entry instead of

sanctum spell heighten earth sense earth spell

The only reason I suggested the 4 feat route is because it is the least cheasiest early entry.

But I have to use precocious apprentice for this one because I need a free first lvl feat for Apprentice: Performor (dmg2) so i can get diplomacy and perform on my skill list to make prerequs for heartfire fanner.


Also, dread necro rainbow tru necro would be pretty darn cool.

But like I said, I would never use this loophole to double stack warmage off of a theurge chassis prestige class. Some things are just too cheesy.

[Grim Reader]

Back in the twilight days of 3.5 there was a thread on the Wizards own forums called something like "Hotly debated topics" My google-fu does not find it, but I'm sure someone has it marked.

It was basically the community asking hotly debated questions of the developers who talked them over and gave rulings on the open questions of 3.5. The Rainbow Servant progression was one of them.

The official word was, text trumphs table. Its 10/10. That came with a recommendation that this was over the curve. Not because the end result is powerful, but because it makes RS far and away more attractive as a PrC for some classes (Warmage) than any other PrC. But RAW, its been explicitly ruled 10/10.

The thread also ruled that Precocious Apprentice do not work for early entry. (With questionable reasoning, imho "It gives a chance to cast a spell, not the ability to") Nor does Earth Spell, or Sanctum shenanigans. However Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell was explicitly ruled to work. Heighten Spells text means it does qualify, without running afoul of Versatiles level limit.

[Sception]

There's also practical optimization issues.

In many home games, DM's simply do not allow those kind of spell level shenanigans for early PrC access, even the one that's been pretty consistently ruled to work.

It's the same issue with the Dreadbow Necrosnake. It's perfectly RAW legal to start as a neutral dread necromancer, become good to qualify for the PC, and continue being good and casting [evil] spells, since nowhere does it say that casting [evil] spells is an evil act. However, in many games that use the alignment rules, the DM won't accept premeditated alignment changes, and likewise many DMs consider [evil] spells to be evil acts, and consistent use of them will bump you down to neutral (evil methods to advance good goals will tend to land characters in the grey zone).

RAW they're legal, but it can be hard to find an actual game that allows them.

[Claudius Maximus]

nowhere does it say that casting [evil] spells is an evil act.

BoVD and FCII disagree. I think BoED might also rule them as evil, but I'm less sure. And that's just if it's not in core, which I'm not sure about.

[Amphetryon]

There's also practical optimization issues.

In many home games, DM's simply do not allow those kind of spell level shenanigans for early PrC access, even the one that's been pretty consistently ruled to work.

It's the same issue with the Dreadbow Necrosnake. It's perfectly RAW legal to start as a neutral dread necromancer, become good to qualify for the PC, and continue being good and casting [evil] spells, since nowhere does it say that casting [evil] spells is an evil act. However, in many games that use the alignment rules, the DM won't accept premeditated alignment changes, and likewise many DMs consider [evil] spells to be evil acts, and consistent use of them will bump you down to neutral (evil methods to advance good goals will tend to land characters in the grey zone).

RAW they're legal, but it can be hard to find an actual game that allows them.
As has been pointed out a few times now, being LN or N satisfies alignment requirements for Dread Necromancer and Rainbow Servant. No alignment shenanigans required for entry.

[Wings of Peace]

There's also practical optimization issues.

In many home games, DM's simply do not allow those kind of spell level shenanigans for early PrC access, even the one that's been pretty consistently ruled to work.

It's the same issue with the Dreadbow Necrosnake. It's perfectly RAW legal to start as a neutral dread necromancer, become good to qualify for the PC, and continue being good and casting [evil] spells, since nowhere does it say that casting [evil] spells is an evil act. However, in many games that use the alignment rules, the DM won't accept premeditated alignment changes, and likewise many DMs consider [evil] spells to be evil acts, and consistent use of them will bump you down to neutral (evil methods to advance good goals will tend to land characters in the grey zone).

RAW they're legal, but it can be hard to find an actual game that allows them.

I'd allow them. I also don't mind premeditated alignment changes as long as the players can weave it into their rp in an interesting manner.

[Qwertystop]

I'd allow them. I also don't mind premeditated alignment changes as long as the players can weave it into their rp in an interesting manner.

Yeah. It's only premediated out of character. In character, it just works out that way.

[Gotterdammerung]

Back in the twilight days of 3.5 there was a thread on the Wizards own forums called something like "Hotly debated topics" My google-fu does not find it, but I'm sure someone has it marked.

It was basically the community asking hotly debated questions of the developers who talked them over and gave rulings on the open questions.


The thread ruled that Precocious Apprentice do not work for early entry. (With questionable reasoning, imho "It gives a chance to cast a spell, not the ability to")

This is why I ignore most Official FAQ's, erratas, and interviews.

It's always filled with a bunch of short-sighted faulty logic. And the worst part is you can't counter their statements because it is "official". Well, being official doesn't make any less moronic.


Precocious Apprentice
[General]

Your master has shown you the basics of a spell beyond the normal limits of your experience and training.

Prerequisite: Spellcasting ability (Int or Cha) 15, arcane caster level 1st

Benefit: Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to. You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell. Until your level is high enough to allow you to cast 2nd-level spells, you must succeed on a DC 8 caster level check to successfully cast this spell; if you fail, the spell is miscast to no effect. Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level, even if this level is insufficient to cast the spell under normal circumstances. When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would. Finally, you gain a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks.

Special: You can take this feat only as a 1st-level character.

The text here is refuting what the designer is implying.

You actually gain the spell slot. You actually cast the spell from that spell slot.

It gives you "the ability to cast the spell".

Yes there is a chance it won't work, but since when has that ever mattered?
You can't arbitrarily add new criteria for prerequisites, Mr designer.

At least not without large scale unintended consequences.

Sweet, now thanks to Mr. Brain Dead Dev, if a wiz/sorc/ultimate magus gains a spell failure chance from armor, they suddenly lose access to everything from ultimate magus because they no longer have the ability to cast the spell, only the chance to cast the spell.

[Gotterdammerung]

Oooo, and suddenly spells, attacks, and abilities that constantly force concentration checks to cast just got a lot more powerful.

Grapple a wizard, he loses his prestige class!

Call down a horrible storm, buncha people lose their prestige classes!

ect ect

[Morph Bark]

Oooo, and suddenly spells, attacks, and abilities that constantly force concentration checks to cast just got a lot more powerful.

Grapple a wizard, he loses his prestige class!

Call down a horrible storm, buncha people lose their prestige classes!

ect ect

Except, yanno, if they have enough levels in the PrC to cast the required spell level anyway, it won't work. :smalltongue:

[Gotterdammerung]

Except, yanno, if they have enough levels in the PrC to cast the required spell level anyway, it won't work. :smalltongue:

No I think your missing the point. By stating that the spell gained by precocious apprentice is not appropriate for meeting prerequisites only because of the variable for success, the dev sets a precedent for ALL prerequisites. By this guys ruling, If at any time one of your prerequ's becomes subject to a variable for success, then it is no longer appropriate as a prerequ.

Precocious apprentice gives you a REAL spell slot (that never goes away btw)
and a REAL spell that you can cast. The only limiting factor is you must designate the spell and then the spell slot can only be used for that chosen spell, and you must make a caster lvl check when you cast the spell to determine success.

This guy is saying it isn't usable as a prerequ because it has a chance to fail.

This changes the rules. For example, if a wiz3/cleric3/mystic theurge10 puts on armor with a spell failure chance, his wizard spells now have a chance to fail, and are therefore unsuitable for use as prerequisites, according to this guys ruling. That poor wizard therefore loses access to 10 lvls of mystic theurge, severely nerfing his character.


It is a completely ridiculous ruling. And it shows why FAQ's, errata's, and Dev Q&A's are full of fail.

[kulosle]

yes i was being theoretical, i'm not a huge fan of throwing alignment around, but i just wanted to know how awesome of a character a true dread rainbow necrosnake would be. i also would not allow mystic theurge to give both of it's advancement to the same class, but i was just thought experimenting via RAW. so i think the next cheese game i play i will use this character for funzies and see how it plays.

and making prerequisites on a must always succeed standard is the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard. i would never rule a game that way, i would just say that early entry tricks don't work.

[KicktheCAN]

The problem with the FAQs is that oftentimes, instead of examining the rules and from them deducing whether or not something works, they decide whether or not it works and then come up with a rules reason why. They go about it all backward!

[Pilo]

Regarding the precocious apprentice feat problem, there is something in the feat text that explicitly states that you can't cast second level spells.

AND I QUOTE :

"When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells,"
From : http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-2236-precocious-apprentice.html

So if there is this in the feat text, it means that you can't cast 2nd-level spells.