Will negates (harmless)?

[Skorj]

Is there anything official on how to handle spells where the save is "Will negates (harmless)" when the target is unconscious? Or even a good online discussion of this? This has become an issue in my game, and I've never really had to deal with that before. If I just settle the dispute arbitrarily someone will be angry either way, so any rulings or convincing arguments would be great.

[senrath]

Unconscious targets are considered willing for the purposes of (Harmless) spells.

[Flickerdart]

Unconscious targets are willing for all spells, but willing doesn't mean "gives up the save". RAW, a creature can choose whether or not to attempt a saving throw against a spell even if it is unconscious, because the unconscious condition does not make an exception.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Unconscious targets are considered willing for the purposes of (Harmless) spells.

To expand on this, unconcious targets are always willing for any effects that are determined by williningness.

[Skorj]

To expand on this, unconcious targets are always willing for any effects that are determined by williningness.

Makes sense to me. But where can I find the rule? The d20srd has nothing under saving throws or unconsciousness about it, and I haven't found anything in my books yet (of course, searching those is harder).

[Fax Celestis]

Aiming A Spell

You must make some choice about whom the spell is to affect or where the effect is to originate, depending on the type of spell. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell’s target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate.
Target or Targets

Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

If the target of a spell is yourself (the spell description has a line that reads Target: You), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The Saving Throw and Spell Resistance lines are omitted from such spells.

Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Spell Descriptions: Aiming a Spell.

[Skorj]

Spell Descriptions: Aiming a Spell.

Awesome! Thanks. What an odd place to hide that rule.

[MesiDoomstalker]

As Flickerdart said, even when Unconcious, a target can still make a save. But he is an acceptable target for (Harmless) spells.

[Ravens_cry]

What about spells that are Harmless to some characters, but not others? For example, the Cure x Wounds line of spells, which messes up Undead?

[Shades of Gray]

Undead are never unconscious, IIRC. They die at 0 HP.

[Emperor Tippy]

Saving Throws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow)



A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.
Arguably an Unconscious character get's no saving throw as they are automatically willing and a creature can willingly give up it's saving throw.

[MesiDoomstalker]

What about spells that are Harmless to some characters, but not others? For example, the Cure x Wounds line of spells, which messes up Undead?

Cure X specifies that it functions as Infict X when used against undead. Inflict X lacks the (Harmless) tag. Plus they can't be unconcious so that helps.

[Optimator]

The text in the Nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nightmare.htm) spell implies that helpless creatures fail all saves, but I've always heard the helpless = willing argument and believed it. Now I don't know what to believe!

[Emperor Tippy]

The text in the Nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nightmare.htm) spell implies that helpless creatures fail all saves, but I've always heard the helpless = willing argument and believed it. Now I don't know what to believe!

Ask your DM, the rules aren't clear.

As I said above, Saving Throws can be voluntarily forgone by a creature that wants to willingly accept a spells result. Unconscious creatures are always willing. Whether or not that means that they give up their saving throw isn't clear by RAW and is a matter for DM adjudication.

[Safety Sword]

I don't think it's ambiguous at all.

As Fax posted (above), an unconscious target is automatically considered willing. Willing creatures don't get a save.

Therefore: Unconscious targets don't get saves.

Q.E.D.

Argument R.I.P.

[Claudius Maximus]

I don't think it's ambiguous at all.

As Fax posted (above), an unconscious target is automatically considered willing. Willing creatures don't get a save.

Therefore: Unconscious targets don't get saves.

Q.E.D.

Argument R.I.P.

Except that no. Arguably, willingness in targeting terms is a completely separate issue from willingness in the voluntary failure rules. It's ambiguous, like Tippy says. I rule against it, as a huge number of effects that target willing creatures specify that a saving throw can be made. I don't claim it as unambiguous RAW though, since by some readings those could all be specific exceptions.

[Krosta]

I think the rule about willing targets is being heavily misinterpreted.

Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
Emphasis mine.
The whole point of that rule is that some spells (such as gaseous form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousForm.htm), levitate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/levitate.htm), plane shift (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm), reduce animal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reduceAnimal.htm) or teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm), just to name a few) don't work at all if casted on unwilling creatures (see the "target" line). Notice how this rule is explained in the "aiming a spell" section. This have nothing to do about choosing or not to make a saving throw and, by RAW, nowhere is stated that an unconscious creature cannot choose if it's the case to attempt a saving throw or not.

Edit: Pretty much what Claudius Maximus said :smalltongue:

[Venger]

this is due to WoTC using very similar wording as usual that confuses us.

your examples of spells with "x willing creatures" in the target section is what "willing" means. if you are unconscious, you can be targeted with one of these

what OP is asking about is if you bonk someone on the head with a mallet and KO them, can you cast "programmed amnesia" or "dominate person" or "bestow curse" or whatever on them without them getting to make a will save

willing≠will save

I think, RAW that they still get a save against will save stuff while unconscious, kinda like how they still get a fort save against coup de grace.