[3.PF] Templates and alignment change.

[Fenryr]

Hello! 'm the DM and I have a paladin in my party. He uses a lot Detect Evil. While I let him detect a lot of enemies, it tends to be boring and not surprising. So I started using wall stones, intelligent positions and some spells to avoid easy detection.

Now, I saw the Simple Template: Fiendish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/fiendish) and no alignment change. I used it on a stone golem (I saw no restriction on what type of creature is aviable) and he got a little upset when the monster used Smite Good on him. He said "That's not possible, he should be evil". I never thought about it, actually.

So, the fiendish template should make monsters and NPC evil? Or by default all creatures in the Lower Planes are evil? ('m not a very experienced DM, so is highly likely I made that mistake) Is there a reason why it doesn't change alignment?

[Calanon]

Hello! 'm the DM and I have a paladin in my party. He uses a lot Detect Evil. While I let him detect a lot of enemies, it tends to be boring and not surprising. So I started using wall stones, intelligent positions and some spells to avoid easy detection.

Now, I saw the Simple Template: Fiendish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/fiendish) and no alignment change. I used it on a stone golem (I saw no restriction on what type of creature is aviable) and he got a little upset when the monster used Smite Good on him. He said "That's not possible, he should be evil". I never thought about it, actually.

So, the fiendish template should make monsters and NPC evil? Or by default all creatures in the Lower Planes are evil? ('m not a very experienced DM, so is highly likely I made that mistake) Is there a reason why it doesn't change alignment?

If the Template doesn't change the creatures alignment or have an entry for it at all then it can be safe to assume that no change occurs.

Albeit my knowledge of Pathfinder is...limited >_>

[Shadowknight12]

Don't make your life complicated. If the rules don't say that the template turns the creature evil and you don't see any reason for it to be evil, then it's not evil. It's whatever alignment you think makes sense. Particularly, you could say that unemotional creatures who don't engage in evil acts can be non-evil even if they do hail from the Lower Planes. A step further would be that any type of creature that doesn't engage in evil acts can be non-evil if that's what you want.

As an aside, that's why I don't really like playing with the alignment system. It generates a very uncomfortable and thorny set of expectations that sometimes I just don't care to fulfil.

[Tanuki Tales]

What exactly is wrong with an evil creature using Smite Good? :smallconfused:

[Yora]

Nothing, but there are legitimate objections to neutral creatures using smite good.

[CheshireCatAW]

A neutral creature can very easily have Smite Good. Sometimes creatures get abilities that are not symmetrical. Making the same neutral creature also have Smite Evil might make it look better on paper, but it's not necessarily the way the creature would evolve.

[Tanuki Tales]

Nothing, but there are legitimate objections to neutral creatures using smite good.

The OP states though that the PC took umbrage because an evil creature used Smite Good and shouldn't be able to because they were evil. Thus my confusion.

I don't see a problem with a neutral creature using Smite Good or Smite Evil though; if Neutral Clerics pick what energy they channel than neutral creatures should have as much a reason to smite good or smite evil. Unless you think they should only smite Chaos or Law.

[Shadowknight12]

The OP states though that the PC took umbrage because an evil creature used Smite Good and shouldn't be able to because they were evil. Thus my confusion.

I don't see a problem with a neutral creature using Smite Good or Smite Evil though; if Neutral Clerics pick what energy they channel than neutral creatures should have as much a reason to smite good or smite evil. Unless you think they should only smite Chaos or Law.

You are confused. The OP stated that he gave the Fiendish template to a neutral creature and made the creature remain neutral rather than switching its alignment to evil. The paladin's Detect Evil showed him that the creature was non-evil, and could Smite Good. The paladin's player complained that it was unfair for a non-evil creature to be able to Smite Good.

The Fiendish template does not change the alignment of the creature it is applied on.

[Fenryr]

Thank you for all the responses. This is a very special player. He thinks a lot about roleplay and alignment. Ninjas (Complete Adventurer) shouldn't be able to be Lawful Good, according to him.

Anyways, if the Fiendish template doesn't change alignment, cool. And it can be applied to any creature. While I know I can get a golem get a fiendish template with some lore, there is no need to say "I'm the DM. Deal with it :smallcool:.", right?

[Novawurmson]

Thank you for all the responses. This is a very special player. He thinks a lot about roleplay and alignment. Ninjas (Complete Adventurer) shouldn't be able to be Lawful Good, according to him.

Complete Scoundrel would take issue with your player. It specifically spells out how Lawful Good characters can be roguish and tricky, even if they lead an orderly life and try to help people.

[Coidzor]

Not always, but it's something that bears consideration when you're making something fiendish since the lower planes, at least in the 3.X material you're using, are made of evil of various flavors. Especially considering that skeletons and zombies, despite having no status as moral actors, have evil alignments so that paladins can use Smite Evil on them.

I would probably have run it so that he could have used Smite Evil on it, but it would not have pinged on his evil-dar that he could do so until it used the Smite Good ability or its ability to do so was otherwise revealed.

[Godskook]

It bears mentioning that the 3.5 template that the PF one is based on does include the alignment change.