(3.PF)Swordsage Maneuver help

[herrhauptmann]

I'm currently working on an epic melee character who has some levels in swordsage. Problem is, I can't decide which maneuvers to give him, or if the last 3 feats should be martial study/stance.
I've gotten permission to use Endarires Stone Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9233697#post9233697) discipline

Witchhunter is a combination of OA Witch hunter, ToM witch slayer, and a little of the Occult Slayer. Where prereqs include the feat Mageslayer (and grants the rest of the chain in the progression).

Character uses a 2 handed fighting style (mini charger, leap attack/shocktrooper), so strength is highest, and dex is average.

Progression: (Quorbred Karsite)
Ranger 1
Ranger 2
Ftr 1
Ftr 2
Swordsage 1
Witchhunter 1
Witchhunter 2
Witchhunter 3
Witchhunter 4
Witchhunter 5
Witchhunter 6
Witchhunter 7
Witchhunter 8
Witchhunter 9
Witchhunter 10
Sage 2 (IL 9)
Sage 3
Sage 4 (IL 11)
Sage 5
Sage 6 (IL13)
WH 11 (IL 13)--1 Feat
WH 12 (IL 14)
WH 13 (IL 14)---2 Feats (one restricted to fighter/epic list)

So which maneuvers and stances would you guys suggest?
About the only thing I'm sure I want is Endarires Giant Stance.

Edit: I can know 11 maneuvers, and 3 stances.
The diamond mind maneuvers for replacing saves are near useless, since we're using the PF skill set, which does not have concentration.

[navar100]

You will want Shadow Stride and Shadow Blink for 50ft teleportation moves. Shadow Stride still allows you a standard action and Shadow Blink allows you a full round action, but both are good for quick escapes if needed.

If you only get/want one 9th level maneuver, make it Time Stands Still. Two full attacks is awesome. Add in Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip for extra joy.

There are also the staple of the Diamond Mind saving throw maneuvers. Pump your Concentration and hardly ever fail a saving throw.

If you need an extra damage boost, Infernal Blade is nice. It's fire damage, but not every thing that ever exists has protections against it. Consider this one a luxury instead of strategy.

[herrhauptmann]

You will want Shadow Stride and Shadow Blink for 50ft teleportation moves. Shadow Stride still allows you a standard action and Shadow Blink allows you a full round action, but both are good for quick escapes if needed.

If you only get/want one 9th level maneuver, make it Time Stands Still. Two full attacks is awesome. Add in Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip for extra joy.

There are also the staple of the Diamond Mind saving throw maneuvers. Pump your Concentration and hardly ever fail a saving throw.

If you need an extra damage boost, Infernal Blade is nice. It's fire damage, but not every thing that ever exists has protections against it. Consider this one a luxury instead of strategy.
Inferno blade? Or infernal blade?
In trying to find 7th level maneuvers that can function well in a level 25 game, I really don't have the room for luxury.

Can't use girallon windmill, since I'm not doing TWF. Nor do I have access to that maneuver, since it requires an IL of 15. Ditto TST. I can solve that, sort of, by buying a few items that grant maneuvers. And martial scrolls scrips. But I can't just rely on scrolls. Especially if I don't have many ranks in martial lore.

[Douglas]

The diamond mind maneuvers for replacing saves are near useless, since we're using the PF skill set, which does not have concentration.
Concentration still exists in Pathfinder, it just got changed to a freebie separate mechanic instead of a skill you have to purchase. Under Pathfinder concentration rules, using a blindingly obvious conversion from casting to initiating, a Swordsage would have a concentration bonus of his initiator level plus his wisdom bonus.

[herrhauptmann]

Concentration still exists in Pathfinder, it just got changed to a freebie separate mechanic instead of a skill you have to purchase. Under Pathfinder concentration rules, using a blindingly obvious conversion from casting to initiating, a Swordsage would have a concentration bonus of his initiator level plus his wisdom bonus.
Why wisdom? It's not his 'casting' stat like cha/int for sorcerers and wizards.

Anyway, if that's all it is, I'll actually be slightly better off just using my regular saves... Base 17 Will, 16 Fort, 13 Ref +7 vest of resistance, and racial bonus on saving throws vs spells, spell like effects, as well as psionic powers and psi-like effects (I assume they won't transfer to racial bonuses on concentration checks vs spells).

[Douglas]

Why wisdom? It's not his 'casting' stat like cha/int for sorcerers and wizards.
It's the closest equivalent he's got, seeing as all his class abilities are based on it and most of the Swordsage-specific disciplines use it for their save DCs.

Warblade would use intelligence, and Crusader would use charisma.

But yeah, if your initiator level is low because you're only doing a dip and you're not boosting wisdom, then the save replacers with Pathfinder concentration aren't worth much.

[navar100]

Infernal Blade.

You don't need two weapon fighting for Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip; that just makes it better. Time Stands Still is still worth it.

You will have to adapt Swordsage skills to Pathfinder. For Diamond Mind, I suggest using Sense Motive where normally you'd use Concentration.

[Fenryr]

In the Paizo Messageboard some players suggest to use Perception instead of Concentration (in order to use Diamond Mind). Or you can use Sense Motive as navar100 says. The idea is to use a skill, not a real concentration check.

[Talionis]

Best seventh level maneuvers: shadow blink.

Best sixth Moment of Alacrity increasing initiative by twenty, and Scorpion Parry.

Best fifth Pouncing Charge, Dancing Mongoose, Shadow Stride, Leaping Flame, Hearing the Air Stance

Second Level: Mountain Hammer, Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt,


I would look more to counters that are siuationally good. Two handed fighting and pouncing suggests Tiger style it also can work with charging too. Some ok charging buffs in Desert Wind too.

[herrhauptmann]

Infernal Blade.

You don't need two weapon fighting for Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip; that just makes it better. Time Stands Still is still worth it.

You will have to adapt Swordsage skills to Pathfinder. For Diamond Mind, I suggest using Sense Motive where normally you'd use Concentration.

Girallon says you need to be wielding two or more weapons to initiate it. The only reason I can see arguing that you can do it while attacking with only 1 weapon, is that it doesn't specify you have to attack with both weapons. Just wield 2 or more. So I'll ask the DM if he'll allow it, but I doubt he will.

Where is Infernal Blade?
All I see is Inferno blade: Desert Wind 7.

[herrhauptmann]

I will take shadow jaunt/stride/blink from SH. Got a method of flight, but teleport is always useful.

Best seventh level maneuvers: shadow blink.

Best sixth Moment of Alacrity increasing initiative by twenty, and Scorpion Parry.

Best fifth Pouncing Charge, Dancing Mongoose, Shadow Stride, Leaping Flame, Hearing the Air Stance

Second Level: Mountain Hammer, Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt,


I would look more to counters that are siuationally good. Two handed fighting and pouncing suggests Tiger style it also can work with charging too. Some ok charging buffs in Desert Wind too.

Moment of alacrity is Diamond mind?
Leaping flame and Scorpion parry = DW?
Dancing mongoose and Pouncing charge? Tigerclaw?
I'll check all those later tonight.

Sometimes I really wish that ToB put all maneuvers in alphabetical order like spells are. Rather than grouping them entirely by discipline. Makes it a lot easier to find them when I'm unsure of school.

[Tvtyrant]

I actually wish that they were organized by their level within their discipline, rather than alphabetically within their discipline.

[herrhauptmann]

I actually wish that they were organized by their level within their discipline, rather than alphabetically within their discipline.

That'd be nice too.

[Talionis]

Wingedcoyote did this, its broken down by School and level the number behind it is the number of maneuvers needed in that school to take that maneuver.

Maneuvers Organized by # of Pre-Reqs, Alphabetized, School, & Level

Desert Wind

Level 1
Blistering Flourish (Strike, 0)
Burning Blade (Boost, 0)
Distracting Ember (Boost, 0)
Flame’s Blessing (Stance, 0)
Wind Stride (Boost, 0)
Level 2
Burning Brand (Boost, 0)
Fire Riposte (Counter, 1)
Flashing Sun (Strike, 1)
Hatchling’s Flame (Strike, 1)
Level 3
Death Mark (Strike, 0)
Fan the Flames (Strike, 1)
Holocaust Cloak (Stance, 1)
Zephyr Dance (Counter, 1)
Level 4
Firesnake (Strike, 2)
Searing Blade (Boost, 2)
Searing Charge (Strike, 1)
Level 5
Dragon’s Flame (Strike, 2)
Leaping Flame (Counter, 2)
Lingering Inferno (Strike, 2)
Level 6
Desert Tempest (Strike, 2)
Fiery Assault (Stance, 2)
Ring of Fire (Strike, 2)
Level 7
Inferno Blade (Boost, 0)
Salamander Charge (Strike, 3)
Level 8
Rising Phoenix (Stance, 3)
Wyrm’s Flame (Strike, 3)
Level 9
Inferno Blast (Strike, 5)

Devoted Spirit

Level 1
Crusader’s Strike (Strike, 0)
Iron Guard’s Glare (Stance, 0)
Martial Spirit (Stance, 0)
Vanguard Strike (Strike, 0)
Level 2
Foehammer (Strike, 0)
Shield Block (Counter, 0)
Level 3
Defensive Rebuke (Boost, 1)
Revitalizing Strike (Strike, 1)
Thicket of Blades (Stance, 1)
Level 4
Divine Surge (Strike, 1)
Entangling Blade (Strike, 1)
Level 5
Daunting Strike (Strike, 1)
Doom Charge (Strike, 1)
Law Bearer (Strike, 1)
Radiant Charge (Strike, 1)
Tide of Chaose (Strike, 1)
Level 6
Aura of Chaos (Stance, 2)
Aura of Perfect Order (Stance, 2)
Aura of Triumph (Stance, 2)
Aura of Tyranny (Stance, 2)
Rallying Strike (Strike, 2)
Level 7
Castigating Strike (Strike, 2)
Shield Counter (Counter, 2)
Level 8
Divine Surge, Greater (Strike, 2)
Immortal Fortitude (Stance, 3)
Level 9
Strike of Righteous Vitality (Strike, 3)

Diamond Mind

Level 1
Moment of Perfect Mind (Counter, 0)
Sapphire Nightmare Blade (Strike, 0)
Stance of Clarity (Stance, 0)
Level 2
Action Before Thought (Counter, 0)
Emerald Razor (Strike, 1)
Level 3
Insightful Strike (Strike, 0)
Mind Over Body (Counter, 0)
Pearl of Black Doubt (Stance, 1)
Level 4
Bounding Assault (Strike, 2)
Mind Strike (Strike, 2)
Ruby Nightmare Blade (Strike, 2)
Level 5
Disrupting Blow (Strike, 2)
Hearing the Air (Stance, 2)
Rapid Counter (Counter, 0)
Level 6
Insightful Strike, Greater (Strike, 2)
Moment of Alacrity (Boost, 2)
Level 7
Avalance of Blades (Strike, 3)
Quicksilver Motion (Boost, 3)
Level 8
Diamond Defense (Counter, 0)
Diamond Nightmare Blade (Strike, 3)
Stance of Alacrity (Stance, 3)
Level 9
Time Stands Still (Strike, 4)

Iron Heart

Level 1
Punishing Stance (Stance, 0)
Steel Wind (Strike, 0)
Steely Strike (Strike, 0)
Level 2
Disarming Strike (Strike, 0)
Wall of Blades (Counter, 0)
Level 3
Absolute Steel Stance (Stance, 1)
Exorcism of Steel (Strike, 1)
Iron Heart Surge (Other, 1)
Level 4
Lightning Recovery (Counter, 2)
Mithral Tornado (Strike, 2)
Level 5
Dancing Blade Form (Stance, 2)
Dazing Strike (Strike, 2)
Iron Heart Focus (Counter, 2)
Level 6
Iron Heart Endurance (Boost, 2)
Manticore Parry (Counter, 2)
Level 7
Finishing Move (Strike, 3)
Scything Blade (Boost, 3)
Level 8
Adamantine Hurricane (Strike, 3)
Lightning Throw (Strike, 2)
Supreme Blade Parry (Stance, 3)
Level 9
Strike of Perfect Clarity (Strike, 4)

Setting Sun

Level 1
Counter Charge (Counter, 0)
Mighty Throw (Strike, 0)
Step of the Wind (Stance, 0)
Level 2
Baffling Defense (Counter, 1)
Clever Positioning (Strike, 0)
Level 3
Devastating Throw (Strike, 1)
Feigned Opening (Counter, 1)
Giant Killing Style (Stance, 1)
Level 4
Comet Throw (Strike, 1)
Strike of the Broken Shield (Strike, 2)
Level 5
Mirrored Pursuit (Counter, 2)
Shifting Defense (Stance, 2)
Soaring Throw (Strike, 2)
Stalking Shadow (Counter, 2)
Level 6
Ballista Throw (Strike, 2)
Scorpion Parry (Counter, 2)
Level 7
Hydra Slaying Strike (Strike, 3)
Level 8
Fool’s Strike (Counter, 3)
Ghostly Defense (Stance, 3)
Level 9
Tornado Throw (Strike, 5)

Shadow Hand

Level 1
Child of Shadow (Stance, 0)
Clinging Shadow Strike (Strike, 0)
Island of Blades (Stance, 0)
Shadow Blade Technique (Strike, 0)
Level 2
Cloak of Deception (Boost, 0)
Drain Vitality (Strike, 1)
Shadow Jaunt (Other, 0)
Level 3
Assassin’s Stance (Stance, 1)
Dance of the Spider (Stance, 0)
Shadow Garrote (Strike, 0)
Strength Draining Strike (Strike, 1)
Level 4
Hand of Death (Strike, 0)
Obscuring Shadow Veil (Strike, 2)
Level 5
Bloodletting Strike (Strike, 2)
Shadow Strike (Other, 0)
Step of the Dancing Moth (Stance, 2)
Level 6
Ghost Blade (Strike, 3)
Shadow Noose (Strike, 0)
Stalker in the Night (Strike, 0)
Level 7
Death in the Dark (Strike, 0)
Shadow Blink (Other, 0)
Level 8
Balance on the Sky (Stance, 3)
Enervating Shadow Strike (Strike, 3)
One With Shadow (Counter, 3)
Level 9
Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike (Strike, 5)

Stone Dragon

Level 1
Charging Minotaur (Strike, 0)
Stone Bones (Strike, 0)
Stonefoot Stance (Stance, 0)
Level 2
Mountain Hammer (Strike, 0)
Stone Vise (Strike, 0)
Level 3
Bonecrusher (Strike, 3)
Crushing Weight of the Mountain (Stance, 1)
Roots of the Mountain (Stance, 0)
Stone Dragon’s Fury (Strike, 1)
Level 4
Bonesplitting Strike (Strike, 2)
Boulder Roll (Boost, 4)
Overwhelming Mountain Strike (Strike, 0)
Level 5
Elder Mountain Hammer (Strike, 2)
Giant’s Stance (Stance, 2)
Mountain Avalance (Strike, 2)
Level 6
Crushing Vice (Strike, 0)
Iron Bones (Strike, 2)
Irresistable Mountain Strike (Strike, 0)
Level 7
Ancient Mountain Hammer (Strike, 3)
Colossus Strike (Strike, 2)
Level 8
Adamantine Bones (Strike, 3)
Earthstrike Quake (Strike, 2)
Strength of Stone (Stance, 3)
Level 9
Mountain Tombstone Strike (Strike, 0)

Tiger Claw

Level 1
Blood in the Water (Stance, 1)
Hunter's Sense (Stance, 1)
Sudden Leap (Boost, 1)
Wolf Fang Strike (Strike, 0)
Level 2
Claw at the Moon (Strike, 0)
Rabid Wolf Strike (Strike, 0)
Level 3
Flesh Ripper (Strike, 2)
Leaping Dragon Stance (Stance 1)
Soaring Raptor Strike (Strike, 1)
Wolverine Stance (Stance, 1)
Level 4
Death From Above (Strike, 1)
Fountain of Blood (Boost, 2)
Level 5
Dancing Mongoose (Boost, 2)
Pouncing Charge (Strike, 2)
Level 6
Rabid Bear Strike (Strike, 2)
Wolf Climbs the Mountain (Strike, 2)
Level 7
Hamstring Attack (Strike, 3)
Prey on the Weak (Stance, 2)
Swooping Dragon Strike (Strike, 3)
Level 8
Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip (Boost, 3)
Raging Mongoose (Boost, 3)
Wolf Pack Tactics (Stance, 2)
Level 9
Feral Death Blow (Strike, 4)

White Raven

Level 1
Bolstering Voice (Stance, 0)
Douse the Flames (Strike, 0)
Leading the Attack (Strike, 0)
Leading the Charge (Stance, 0)
Level 2
Battle Leader’s Charge (Strike, 1)
Tactical Strike (Strike, 1)
Level 3
Lion’s Roar (Boost, 1)
Tactics of the Wolf (Stance, 1)
White Raven Tactics (Boost, 1)
Level 4
Covering Strike (Boost, 1)
White Raven Strike (Strike, 1)
Level 5
Flanking Maneuver (Strike, 2)
Press the Advantage (Stance, 2)
Level 6
Order Forged From Chaos (Other, 2)
War Leader’s Charge (Strike, 2)
Level 7
Clarion Call (Boost, 3)
Swarming Assault (Strike, 3)
Level 8
Swarm Tactics (Stance, 1)
White Raven Hammer (Strike, 3)
Level 9
War Master’s Charge (Strike, 4)

Thank wingedcoyote for contributing this useful organizational scheme

[navar100]

Girallon says you need to be wielding two or more weapons to initiate it. The only reason I can see arguing that you can do it while attacking with only 1 weapon, is that it doesn't specify you have to attack with both weapons. Just wield 2 or more. So I'll ask the DM if he'll allow it, but I doubt he will.

Missed that part. It's not a must have maneuver, just a really nice one that synergizes very well with Time Stands Still. If your character it really not built for it, don't sweat it.


Where is Infernal Blade?
All I see is Inferno blade: Desert Wind 7.

Whatever it's called. I'm way from my books. 3d6 + initiator level fire damage added to all attacks, stacks with magic weapon properties even if fire.