Am I too powerful? [PF]

[Dyllan]

I'm playing a Synthesist Summoner in a campaign starting at level 10. We were each given 30k to spend on starting gear.

Long story short, my character's relevant stats (with mage armor cast and my Eidolon on) are:
Large
AC 38
Fort 10
Ref 11
Will 14
Attack +21/+16 (3d6+20) - +2 reach weapon with trip ability - 25 foot reach
CMB for tripping (which I specialized in) 32, and tripped guy provokes attacks of op
CMD 38

I'm the only PC with an AC over 30, and do more damage than anyone else in the party. Also, I have better saves than most of the party. And my trip is insane.

The DM seems to think I'm overpowered. He told me he's probably just going to have us fight things that are immune to tripping or have a ton of legs. I'm out damaging the glass cannons in the party, and I didn't design my Eidolon as a glass cannon (I would've gone for quadraped and pounce if I had).

I know, compared to a full caster, no melee character is too powerful... but I don't want to overshadow every other melee character either.

Am I too powerful, do you think, for level 10 (with low gear), or does the rest of my party just suck?

Edit: Typo at the top, that was level 10, not 20.

[sonofzeal]

You seemed to have answered your own question.

If {a} you're outperforming your teammates in the areas of their specialty, {b} you don't have any major accompanying weaknesses, and {c} it's become a noticeable gameplay problem to other people in your group... then yes you're too powerful.

[graeylin]

i can't speak to the tripping, but I have a 15th level druid with far better AC, comparable saves (or better), slightly worse melee stats (much worse damage, but she's NOT a melee druid). And, she's not optimized at all. So, I would say, at level 20, with those stats, it's the rest of your group that is falling behind. Way behind.

But I don't understand why you only get 30K to spend, that's way below WBL for level 20 PC's.

[Little Brother]

i can't speak to the tripping, but I have a 15th level druid with far better AC, comparable saves (or better), slightly worse melee stats (much worse damage, but she's NOT a melee druid). And, she's not optimized at all. So, I would say, at level 20, with those stats, it's the rest of your group that is falling behind. Way behind. This.

If, at level 20, dedicated melee can't keep up with THAT, they are doing something very, VERY wrong. VERY wrong. You're being kinda... How to say? Synthesist in general is kinda douchey, IMO. The class was designed to do what you're describing, sorta like druid, but worse. It still lets you be passable in melee, which you are, despite dumping your physical stats.

Either way, on the melee, you should not be out-performing a melee character. I could make straight fighter 20(not the caster) that could vastly outperform that in melee. It's mediocre. It's obvious you weren't trying to bust it because if that's it... It's just.. they suck. Do they know what this miraculous thing called the Tome of Battle is?

But I don't understand why you only get 30K to spend, that's way below WBL for level 20 PC's.A little under a 25th

[Dyllan]

Thanks for the insight, and I must apologize for a typo.

We're level 10. I said 10 at the bottom of the post, but accidentally typed 20 at the top. I've edited it to fix it.

So, for level 10, am I overpowered, or are they underpowered?

[Little Brother]

Thanks for the insight, and I must apologize for a typo.

We're level 10. I said 10 at the bottom of the post, but accidentally typed 20 at the top. I've edited it to fix it.

So, for level 10, am I overpowered, or are they underpowered?
In my opinion? No. You lose immediately to grease. You lose to solid fog. Dismissal+Silence=uLose. Too many things have too many "NO" buttons. You're a stupid good meleer, but a high-powered Druid would tear you to shreds, as would a Cleric.

[Andreaz]

Thanks for the insight, and I must apologize for a typo.

We're level 10. I said 10 at the bottom of the post, but accidentally typed 20 at the top. I've edited it to fix it.

So, for level 10, am I overpowered, or are they underpowered?

Since it's a relative thing...both.

But just considering what each class can do... they suck. Really bad. All they can do is damage, and they are good enough at it that it's always better for the casters to let them do it instead of trying to compete.
But good luck telling your group that.

[Eldariel]

AC 38 is really high for level 10 melee; the expected values are in the neighborhood of 30 for non-caster melee types. Casters can obviously go higher but that's casters so meh. However, if people focus on it heavily (such as through Expertise), such numbers can be reached. Generally they tank your offense though and thus become uninteresting alternatives. Could you list your exact build? 'cause exactly how much you've invested in this is kind of a big factor in the whole deal.

Your saves aren't especially high (level 10 Druid, by contrast, would probably have ~+13 Fort and ~+16 Will with similar Ref to yours for example). They are, however, well-rounded so you have a character without any obvious weaknesses.


And yeah, Tripping, even nerfed in PF, is the strongest combat maneuver and thus it's expected a character using it outperforms melee characters not using it (to a degree anyways; obviously pure damage still works too). The amount of penalties and bonuses you apply if you knock someone prone nearby is massive and a Trip-specced character can do it without losing out on any damage on his own turn.

But yeah, Synthesists are some of the more common complaints on PF games because much like 3.5 Druids, they outperform melee characters in their niché with little work (on both sides). And they need far less stats than focused melee.

[Hiro Protagonest]

You seemed to have answered your own question.

If {a} you're outperforming your teammates in the areas of their specialty, {b} you don't have any major accompanying weaknesses, and {c} it's become a noticeable gameplay problem to other people in your group... then yes you're too powerful.

/thread

Everything else is going to be people complaining about how everyone else is too weak. Hint: if everyone says you're wrong and you say everyone else is wrong, you're generally going to be wrong. The only part where you might not be is in moral matters, like when cap opposes Iron Man and Iron Man has the country on his side. But that's a whole other bucket of worms.

But 38 AC at level 10? And +38 on trip? Yeah, I consider that overpowered.

[Wings of Peace]

This.

Do they know what this miraculous thing called the Tome of Battle is?


Pretty sure ToB isn't a Pathfinder book.

[Little Brother]

Pretty sure ToB isn't a Pathfinder book.Backwards compatibility dude. 3.5 works with Pathfinder and vice versa. And Baccob knows PF melee needs the help even worse than 3.5.

[Dazed&Confused]

Compare yourself to the other players, if you're too far from them, then you're unbalanced(not necessarily overpowered) and should change, or help them get better in some way.

AC 38 is really really high though. The char itself isn't actually overpowered, but your AC is kinda over the top if you take CR 10 monsters into account.

[Wings of Peace]

Backwards compatibility dude. 3.5 works with Pathfinder and vice versa. And Baccob knows PF melee needs the help even worse than 3.5.

Backwards compatible doesn't mean that they're interchangeable though. Generally for a Pathfinder + 3.5/3.0 group you would use the term 3.P not Pathfinder.

Edit: In Pathfinder Society play for example, 3.5 material is disallowed altogether if I'm not mistaken.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm pretty sure ToB doesn't give an AC of five higher than the highest attack bonus of a level appropriate encounter, and eight higher than the next highest attack bonus. And his average trip result is ten higher than his already extremely high AC.

[Coidzor]

Backwards compatible doesn't mean that they're interchangeable though. Generally for a Pathfinder + 3.5/3.0 group you would use the term 3.P not Pathfinder.

Indeed, I believe you could, you know, take it as a suggestion to move towards such because Pathfinder clearly doesn't do enough on its own. :smalltongue:


Edit: In Pathfinder Society play for example, 3.5 material is disallowed altogether if I'm not mistaken.

Which is to be disregarded unless they tell us they're doing that. And if they were, then, well, isn't Synthesist banned from that anyway?