Balancing greenbound summoning

[molten_dragon]

I love the idea of the greenbound summoning feat. I've always wanted to make a completely plant-based druid, and greenbound summoning would help give it some teeth. I also realize that it's extremely overpowered as it stands. The easiest way to balance it I think would be to simply make it have a spell level adjustment. I'm not sure how high it should be though. I've heard that whoever designed it originally meant for it to be a +2 adjustment. I'm wondering if that's a bit too high though. Getting one greenbound wolf with a third level spell probably isn't as beneficial as getting a bunch of normal wolves. So what do you think, should it be a +2 or maybe just a +1?

If it matters, I also use a minor houserule on summoning spells. When casting a spell to get multiple weaker creatures, picking creatures off the list one level lower gets you 2 of them instead of 1d3 and picking creatures off the list two levels lower gets you 4 instead of 1d4+1. I've always hated the idea that I could waste a higher level spell slot and still only get 1 critter.

[Keld Denar]

Honestly, I think the best fix is simply to remove the SLAs from the Greenbound template, especially the Wall of Thorns. Maybe restrict the Entangle to 1/day as well. Other than that, I think its fine.

[molten_dragon]

Honestly, I think the best fix is simply to remove the SLAs from the Greenbound template, especially the Wall of Thorns. Maybe restrict the Entangle to 1/day as well. Other than that, I think its fine.

Even doing that though, it's still a lot more powerful than augment summoning, and without the crappy prereq.

[sonofzeal]

You can add templates out of Manual of the Planes like "Vivacious" for +1 spell level, and Greenbound seems better than most of them. Even removing the SLAs, it's at LEAST a +1 spell level. I agree it's not that great at +2... but I do believe that variants shouldn't expect to be quite as good in general, because you can always find particular niches where they really shine.

I'd run it at +2. But maybe boost the HD of summons by one or so, assuming you're re-writing statblocks ahead of time.

[Qwertystop]

If you're trying to make a plant-based Druid, I have an ACF replacing Wildshape for that. Here it is. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186028)

It's past the Thread Necromancy deadline, so if you have anything to say about it, please PM me and I'll revive it.

[Claudius Maximus]

You can add templates out of Manual of the Planes like "Vivacious" for +1 spell level, and Greenbound seems better than most of them. Even removing the SLAs, it's at LEAST a +1 spell level. I agree it's not that great at +2... but I do believe that variants shouldn't expect to be quite as good in general, because you can always find particular niches where they really shine.

I'd run it at +2. But maybe boost the HD of summons by one or so, assuming you're re-writing statblocks ahead of time.

I would cut the SLAs and leave it at +1.

That or simply homebrew a different, more appropriate template. Look at Ice Beast and the Thomil and Orglash templates for inspiration. Those are other summoning templates and I think those are more balanced than Greenbound.

[kulosle]

If it matters, I also use a minor houserule on summoning spells. When casting a spell to get multiple weaker creatures, picking creatures off the list one level lower gets you 2 of them instead of 1d3 and picking creatures off the list two levels lower gets you 4 instead of 1d4+1. I've always hated the idea that I could waste a higher level spell slot and still only get 1 critter.

i highly advice against this, or at least let the summoner choose. this mean that the spell no longer has a variable meaning it can't be the target of maximize/empower and another one that i'm forgetting. it would seriously weaken the spells if you did this. maybe add a clause to the spell that says, to a minimum of the average rounded down.

also comparing feats is an exercise of futility. greenbound summoning>augment summoning>skill focus>mobility. a level adjustment sounds harsh, especially if you don't let it then be considered a meta magic feat. one thing to consider is giving it more difficult prerequisites. having a feat requirement makes a feat a lot less overpower, although i also think that is a bit harsh unless it is a good feat anyways. augment summoning as a prerequisite is what i would suggest. that a lot of feats eaten up and you've become a one trick pon... okay that is not true your still a tier 1 druid, but you definitely lowered your power level an smidgen.

on another note, why are you trying to balance a feat that you are adding on to a druid. that's like trying to minimize the amount of damage a nuclear warhead does. if you gm can't handle a feat, how is he going to handle a druid?

[Gavinfoxx]

The author intended it to be a metamagic feat, initially. +2, I think?

[sonofzeal]

The author intended it to be a metamagic feat, initially. +2, I think?
How the heck do you get Swordsage'd by the original post?!?

Inquiring minds must know!!! :smallcool::smallcool::smallcool:

[Coidzor]

That or simply homebrew a different, more appropriate template. Look at Ice Beast and the Thomil and Orglash templates for inspiration. Those are other summoning templates and I think those are more balanced than Greenbound.

Where are those from? I remember hearing about the Ice Beast before, but haven't heard of those last two at all...

[Feytalist]

Both are found in Unapproachable East, a FR sourcebook. The thomil is a rock spirit, while the orglash is an ice spirit. Somewhat similar to elementals. Fluffwise, they are created by the witches of Rashemen to protect the land.

[Gavinfoxx]

How the heck do you get Swordsage'd by the original post?!?

Inquiring minds must know!!! :smallcool::smallcool::smallcool:

ctrl-f for 'meta', did not see it in the original post.