Psion/Wilder Gestalt

[hushblade]

Two questions:
1. Is it legitimate to prestige into a class that advances manifesting in psion, while still advancing Wilder on the other side of the gestalt?
2. You get power points from both classes, right? You get casting slots for two spellcaster classes after all.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. Yes, that's perfectly fine.
2. Yes, and keep in mind psionic characters use a single pool of daily powerpoints from which to manifest all of their powers.

[Godskook]

In my opinion, this really isn't worth it though. Sure, you can now afford to nova a bit better. Or you could go wizard//psion or sorcerer//wilder, and get access to a lot of things psionics didn't get, while reducing your MAD significantly. It can also help with powers-known if you go int-based, as many semi-mandatory powers also show up as spells, and its just better to learn some of them as a Wizard than as a Psion.

[hushblade]

Well I was thinking to avoid MAD I would take Psion spells that have saves, and Wilder spells that don't, then I can still be INT focused and only have CHA at 19 maximum by level 17 so I'm allowed to cast level 9 spells.
Err, powers rather.

[Godskook]

What is it you're wanting to get out of Psion//Wilder that's not better served with the above alternatives?

[TheOOB]

When making a Gestalt character you using want to diversify your character and make them able to handle more kinds of situations. Since you only have one action a round, you'll be much better served giving yourself more options for what to do with those actions, because having both psion and wielder doesn't make your powers any better.

[1of3]

I'd rather have Psion/Ardent, if I wanted two psionic classes. Ardent offers some things Psions can't do and heavy armor.

[Psyren]

Go Erudite instead of Psion - you get access to way more powers known (the majority of which you can then manifest on your Wilder side, bypassing UPD), more discipline powers, and a free psicrystal. Your Erudite side will serve simply as a power repository, meaning you'll never need more than 19 Int (e.g. start with 14, +5 tome) and can focus your stat boosts on Cha. If you can use one of the Erudite ACFs it gets exponentially better.

Grab 2 levels of Paladin on your Erudite side as well. This will give you Cha to saves, MWP, a boosted fort save and some nice d10s. It will also make PrC'ing into Sanctified Mind a breeze, and their Partition Mind ability works fantastically for Wilders to help you stave off Enervation.

[erikun]

Psion//Lurk, Psion//Psychic Rogue, and Ardent//Psychic Warrior get the benefit of an expanded range of options and get bonus PP from having a high ability score twice. Psion//Wilder would only benefit from high INT once.

Other than that, I suppose it could work. If your table is okay with online material, pick up the Educated Wilder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) variant for additional powers.

[Psyren]

Psion//Lurk, Psion//Psychic Rogue, and Ardent//Psychic Warrior get the benefit of an expanded range of options and get bonus PP from having a high ability score twice. Psion//Wilder would only benefit from high INT once.

The trouble is that all of those options have much lower base PP on one side (particularly Psion/Psychic Rogue), so the SADness becomes a wash at best and detrimental at worst.

For instance - a Psion 10//Lurk 10 with, say, 22 Int, would have 30 bonus PP on each side, plus base pp of 88 from Psion and 27 from Lurk, for a total of 175 PP. (60 + 88 + 27 = 175.)

A Wilder 10//Psion 10 gets more base PP than that (88+88 = 176)! And only then would you go into the bonus PP on each side. Plus the Wilder side is getting you 5th-level powers (4th-level EKs) while the Lurk is still on 4ths (3rd-level EKs.) So in this instance, you're actually better off being MAD.

[erikun]

The trouble is that all of those options have much lower base PP on one side (particularly Psion/Psychic Rogue), so the SADness becomes a wash at best and detrimental at worst.

For instance - a Psion 10//Lurk 10 with, say, 22 Int, would have 30 bonus PP on each side, plus base pp of 88 from Psion and 27 from Lurk, for a total of 175 PP. (60 + 88 + 27 = 175.)

A Wilder 10//Psion 10 gets more base PP than that (88+88 = 176)! And only then would you go into the bonus PP on each side.
A quick look at the table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/index.htm#abilitiesAndManifesters) for bonus PP seems to indicate that the balance point is around a 34 ability score, meaning that having over 34 INT would make Psion//Lurk better, while less than 34 INT would make Psion//Wilder better. I guess it depends on what you expect the value to be, then.


Plus the Wilder side is getting you 5th-level powers (4th-level EKs) while the Lurk is still on 4ths (3rd-level EKs.) So in this instance, you're actually better off being MAD.
You are going to be using Expanded Knowledge for 4th level powers in either case, because it is dependent on your highest level powers and the Psion-half will have access to 5th level in both cases. (Power list does not matter with Expanded Knowledge.)

[Psyren]

A quick look at the table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/index.htm#abilitiesAndManifesters) for bonus PP seems to indicate that the balance point is around a 34 ability score, meaning that having over 34 INT would make Psion//Lurk better, while less than 34 INT would make Psion//Wilder better. I guess it depends on what you expect the value to be, then.

Right - but as you climb in levels, base PP increase too, and the rate is not linear. This moves the goalposts considerably.

For instance, at 15:

Psion 15//Wilder 15 = 390 PP base
Psion 15//Lurk 15 = 262 PP base

The P//L build needs 128 PP to merely catch up to the PW build's base PP, never mind any that the former gets from ability score. From the same bonus PP table you linked, that means 28+ Int.

But the MAD build really only needs 19 Int - the rest can go to Cha. You don't even need a lot of items for this, as you can start with 14 Int + 18 Cha, use a Tome to hit 19 when needed (relying on a Headband of Intellect before then) and focus all of your stat score increases, other item slots etc. on Cha.

The SAD build catches up post-epic - which doesn't really matter as few games get that far.

Good point re: EK, wasn't thinking clearly on that one.

[AmberVael]

I don't think it's quite as clear cut as you're trying to make it.

For one, being SAD will allow you to better distribute scores into other crucial abilities more readily, like constitution. Plus, if you can focus heavily on one ability, you'll probably be able to throw out higher saves.

For another, all of the lower power point classes have other reasons to take them. For example, the lurk has medium BAB, more skills, a good reflex save, and some other perks. Psychic Warrior grants tons of feats, medium BAB, a good fort save, and higher hit points. All of these things are very nice in gestalt.

And frankly? You may not need all those power points. A boost from a second class is quite likely to be enough. You're not going to get more actions from your build, and having more powers doesn't mean you're going to manifest that much more often.

It's also interesting to note that the "partial manifesters" like Lurk and Psychic Warrior have the advantage of a number of powers being lower level on their list, meaning more efficient manifesting (and you don't have to buy them all with Expanded Knowledge).

[hex0]

If magic/psionic transparency is in effect you might be able to Channel touch psionic powers as a Duskblade. Duskblade//Psion

[Psyren]

I don't think it's quite as clear cut as you're trying to make it.

Oh, I agree with you; in fact, I'm not saying it's clear-cut at all. On the contrary, the "clear" answer in gestalt is usually "be SAD" - I'm the one muddying the issue by bucking that kneejerk trend.


For one, being SAD will allow you to better distribute scores into other crucial abilities more readily, like constitution. Plus, if you can focus heavily on one ability, you'll probably be able to throw out higher saves.

Granted that we don't know what the OP is working with stat-wise, but that sort of trade-off really only matters with low point buy and/or low wealth. So long as you're able to get a 19 in the secondary manifesting stat by level 17, you really don't lose a whole lot. The non-wilder side merely has to focus on powers that don't offer saves - which it probably will be anyway, since the wilder side will likely be pushing out the offense due to Surge.


For another, all of the lower power point classes have other reasons to take them. For example, the lurk has medium BAB, more skills, a good reflex save, and some other perks. Psychic Warrior grants tons of feats, medium BAB, a good fort save, and higher hit points. All of these things are very nice in gestalt.

If you're an Ardent/Psywar (the Wis-SAD combo), you already have the medium BAB and fort save. The feats are nice of course, but simply aren't as useful without the extra PP to power them.

Psion/Lurk is more useful, but except for very niche roles the Lurk is often not bringing that much to the table. Would you rather maintain your focus to enable your weak sneak attack, or expend it to power a metapsionic feat? Would you rather be using your swift on one of your lukewarm augments, or firing off another quickened power?


And frankly? You may not need all those power points. A boost from a second class is quite likely to be enough. You're not going to get more actions from your build, and having more powers doesn't mean you're going to manifest that much more often.

This is not true at all - psionics can directly translate ammunition into actions far more easily than any other magic system. Schism, Hustle, Temporal Acceleration, Synchronicity, Anticipatory Strike and various metapsionics - power points are the major limiting factor for psionics, not actions.


It's also interesting to note that the "partial manifesters" like Lurk and Psychic Warrior have the advantage of a number of powers being lower level on their list, meaning more efficient manifesting (and you don't have to buy them all with Expanded Knowledge).

Lower-level powers aside, you won't need that many EKs; a Psion//Wilder will have more powers known than an Ardent//Psywar or Lurk//Psion anyway. For the few powers that you may want to nab from the lesser manifesters early, you'll get more than enough bonus EKs from either your Psion side or Educated Wilder to grab.

[DonutBoy12321]

Lower-level powers aside, you won't need that many EKs; a Psion//Wilder will have more powers known than an Ardent//Psywar or Lurk//Psion anyway.

I disagree. The Psion//Wilder would have 36 powers from Psion, and 11 from Wilder. That adds up to a total of 47, without Expanded Knowledge.

Psywar's know 20 powers. That means that Ardent needs to know 27 powers just to equal the Psion//Wilder. The Ardent side, however, can use the Substitute Powers variant, letting all Mantles have 10 powers. The Ardent gets 3 Mantles by level two, which means 30 powers. Thus, the Psywar//Ardent easily surpasses the Psion//Wilder in powers known.

[Psyren]

I disagree. The Psion//Wilder would have 36 powers from Psion, and 11 from Wilder. That adds up to a total of 47, without Expanded Knowledge.

Psywar's know 20 powers. That means that Ardent needs to know 27 powers just to equal the Psion//Wilder. The Ardent side, however, can use the Substitute Powers variant, letting all Mantles have 10 powers. The Ardent gets 3 Mantles by level two, which means 30 powers. Thus, the Psywar//Ardent easily surpasses the Psion//Wilder in powers known.

First off, you're incorrect - Ardent has a maximum of 21 powers known no matter how many mantles they possess. All more mantles give you are more powers to choose from. So your total for Psywar//Ardent is 21 + 20 = 41.

Second, if you're allowing Mind's Eye, Wilder gets 15 from Educated, not 11. This gives the Psion//Wilder a total of 36 + 15 = 51.

[DonutBoy12321]

First off, you're incorrect - Ardent has a maximum of 21 powers known no matter how many mantles they possess. All more mantles give you are more powers to choose from. So your total for Psywar//Ardent is 21 + 20 = 41

... *facepalm*
And that is what I get for not reading books well enough.

[candycorn]

I'd personally prefer Psion//Factotum.

Seriously SAD, has multiple ways to break the action economy, gets to add int to damage, gets SLA's, on top of the other stuff, gets a great skill list, knowledge devotion synergises exceptionally well, and, well...

Did I mention supremely SAD?

[hex0]

(Full BAB class)//Psi Warrior to 5 then War Mind//Psi Warrior would be decent. War Mind gets tons of PP. Also, you know. Full BAB and better saves and HD.

Also don't bother with Lurk. Psion//Psychic Rogue->Psychic Assassin would be much better.

[Rubik]

You might actually consider something like erudite 10/metamind 10//ardent 10 (with dominant ideal)/erudite 5/ardent. Take those last 5 erudite levels in the dead spots of metamind, and also take Practiced Manifester (Ardent).

Or go with shaper/constructor//factotum/spellthief. Steal your own SLAs, and use the shaper's ability to use awesome metacreativity powers that can save you power points if used judiciously (since they either cost almost nothing -- ie, Psionic Minor Creation) or have good durations (astral construct). You're the ultimate multipurpose tool, good in dungeons, combat, social situations, and just about anything else you can think of.

[Mnemnosyne]

I don't think I would gestalt two full-manifester psionic classes, for many of the aforementioned reasons, but if I WAS going to, I'm pretty sure I'd make it Psion/Ardent or Erudite/Ardent. That way I can put the most awesome powers to apply metapsionics to in my Ardent's dominant ideal mantle.

[Psyren]

You might actually consider something like erudite 10/metamind 10//ardent 10 (with dominant ideal)/erudite 5/ardent. Take those last 5 erudite levels in the dead spots of metamind, and also take Practiced Manifester (Ardent).

Psion Uncarnates are great for gestalt too; you gain one of the most powerful defenses in the game while keeping a lot of manifesting punch.

[Arbitrarious]

Go Erudite instead of Psion - you get access to way more powers known (the majority of which you can then manifest on your Wilder side, bypassing UPD), more discipline powers, and a free psicrystal. Your Erudite side will serve simply as a power repository, meaning you'll never need more than 19 Int (e.g. start with 14, +5 tome) and can focus your stat boosts on Cha. If you can use one of the Erudite ACFs it gets exponentially better.

Could you explain this to me? I thought that power points pooled, but powers known were kept separate. I guess you can use your other power list as another psion or power stone and manifest it that way, but that adds a full round to time. Is there some rule I'm missing that allows you to manifest from another list with your main class? Thanks!

[Psyren]

Could you explain this to me? I thought that power points pooled, but powers known were kept separate. I guess you can use your other power list as another psion or power stone and manifest it that way, but that adds a full round to time. Is there some rule I'm missing that allows you to manifest from another list with your main class? Thanks!

When you multiclass as a psionic character, your powers known are pooled:


Multiclass Psionic Characters

If you have levels in more than one psionic class, you combine your power points from each class to make up your reserve. You can use these power points to manifest powers from any psionic class you have.

Thus your gestalt "knows" all the psion and wilder powers it gets from either side.

Where they normally get segregated is by manifester level. However, Wilders, Psions and Erudites all share a list - the general psion list (i.e. non-discipline powers.) You can thus manifest powers from this list using either side of your psion//wilder (or erudite//wilder) gestalt.

What you cannot do is manifest discipline powers using your wilder side, because those are not on the Wilder list.


The "address power stone" rules don't apply here because you're not manifesting from "another's" powers known - you're manifesting from yours:


Manifest an Unknown Power from Another’s Powers Known

A psionic character can attempt to manifest a power from a source other than his own knowledge (usually a power stone or another willing psionic character). To do so, the character must first make contact (a process similar to addressing a power stone, requiring a Psicraft check against a DC of 15 + the highest level power in the power stone or repertoire).

You're not manifesting "from a source other than your own knowledge" because all the powers are pooled in your head (see the first quote.)

[Tokuhara]

I actually prefer Erudite//Archivist as a base, with it being the following:

Erudite (StP) 15/Arch Psion 5//Archivist 5/Walker in the Waste 10/Contemplative 1/Divine Oracle 1/Church Inquisitor 1/Dracolyte 1/Sacred Exorcist 1

[hex0]

Psychic Rogue 5/Psion 5
Psychic Assassin 2/Psion 2
Telflammar Shadowlord 6/Psion 6
Psychic Assassin 7/Psion 7

[Psyren]

I actually prefer Erudite//Archivist as a base, with it being the following:

Erudite (StP) 15/Arch Psion 5//Archivist 5/Walker in the Waste 10/Contemplative 1/Divine Oracle 1/Church Inquisitor 1/Dracolyte 1/Sacred Exorcist 1

Note that Arch Psion is 3.0 and requires you to know a defunct feat (Psionic Focus). Power Specialization should be usable to qualify instead though.

[Tokuhara]

Note that Arch Psion is 3.0 and requires you to know a defunct feat (Psionic Focus). Power Specialization should be usable to qualify instead though.

I was using the version from Mind's Eye. I think it uses Power Specialization, but I am unsure

[Psyren]

I was using the version from Mind's Eye. I think it uses Power Specialization, but I am unsure

The Mind's Eye version (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20021122b) is 3.0 and was never updated. Note other 3.0 psionics references in its entry, such as Remote View as a class skill and the progression of 0-level "free manifestations."

[hex0]

The Mind's Eye version (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20021122b) is 3.0 and was never updated. Note other 3.0 psionics references in its entry, such as Remote View as a class skill and the progression of 0-level "free manifestations."

Wow. Master of Power Negation and Innate Psionics are pretty tight.

Psion 5/Psychic Warrior 5
Psion 10/Metamind 10
Arch Psion 5/Psychic Warrior 5

?

[Tokuhara]

Wow. Master of Power Negation and Innate Psionics are pretty tight.

Hence why I like it. Look at 3.0 Archmage and compare to 3.5. Do the same to Arch Psion. done