What would you assume from a system that did this?

[Trekkin]

I'd put this in Homebrew, but it's not my homebrew and I'm not trying to get it critiqued with a view to changing it. I'm trying to understand the rationale behind a design decision that's got me absolutely bemused.

In brief, I've been invited to play in a campaign with a system that is best described as modified d20 modern, as some sort of homebrew psion that runs off Knowledge checks to put things together on the micro scale with their mind. The catch is that Knowledge skills are not class skills for this particular class, or for any psionic class in this system. This was apparently a very specific design decision,albeit for reasons I'm apparently not to know, and in a system that otherwise looks solid, so I'm left to wonder why exactly that was done, especially as they get 2+int skill points per level and their casting stat is now Con.

Thus my question, Playgrounders, as I've got this nascent system in front of me and am quite earnestly puzzled as to what I'm to do with it. What would you, as a player, think if, say, Spellcraft were suddenly not a class skill for Wizards, or Truespeak not a class skill for Truenamers? As a designer, why might you implement something like this?

[MickJay]

Reasons I can think of:

1) to simulate some aspect of the nature of the psychic powers (e.g., for whatever reason, psions have a hard time gaining knowledge and skills in general; maybe using psychic powers alters the brain somehow, maybe the powers are somehow artificially awakened or granted, resulting in limiting of other mental functions, etc)

2) to limit the power of psions by forcing them to pick specific niches, or by simply making their powers unreliable

3) the GM doesn't want people to play psions, for one reason or other

[Thane of Fife]

Well, it depends on how the checks work. Are they purely scaling (i.e. DC 2x CR +15 or whatever style checks)? Non-scaling (psionically making a ladder is DC 10)? A mixture of both?

In the first case, perhaps the cross-class skill levels are judged to better progress with DCs. If the DC is based on the target's Int, or something, then full skill ranks might outstrip it too rapidly.

In the second case, cross-class skill ranks allow each DC to remain meaningful longer. If a sample DC is 10, for example, then by level 5 you're practically guaranteed to succeed. Cross-class ranks, however, mean that you'd achieve similar competence at about level 13, while still getting better all the time.

MickJay's explanations are also good, and I'll also throw out that as a Casting class, which often would need only one stat, giving few skill points could be a good way to suggest investment in other ability scores (like Intelligence) as well.

Also, what does the rest of the class look like? I don't precisely recall how d20 modern works, but are we talking full attack bonus, or character who has nothing but psionic powers?

[Urpriest]

Considering how much d20 Modern encourages multiclassing, this rule in practice would lead to psions with level+3 ranks in a few Knowledge skills, rather than (level+3)/2 ranks in many, since a one-level dip is enough to set max ranks to the class skill limit. Barring Able Learner-alikes, though, you won't have much versatility since you'll only be able to keep a few Knowledge skills up. So if it's well thought through it's meant to discourage versatility and encourage dipping things like Smart Hero.

[Trekkin]

Also, what does the rest of the class look like? I don't precisely recall how d20 modern works, but are we talking full attack bonus, or character who has nothing but psionic powers?

Manifesting is all it does, really, and time-consuming manifesting to boot. The rest of the class, as far as it exists yet (system is still under construction) has poor BAB, no good saves, etc. The only explanation I've gotten thus far is "fluff reasons".

That said, it's been confirmed I'll need only a few knowledge skills to work normally, so perhaps it is a method of stretching out the usefulness of DCs.

[Mando Knight]

Only explanation I'll give you is "GM is a jerk and/or hasn't thought things through properly."

Not having Knowledge (ALL THE THINGS) as class skills I can understand. Not having Knowledge (class's area of expertise) as a class skill is something completely moronic, since that's the class's area of expertise. It would be another thing if it was universally cross-class, but if a non-psionic computer nerd has an easier time learning the skills used to apply psionic ability than the psion himself does, there's something utterly wrong... like saying a liberal arts major has an easier time understanding physics than an engineer.

Also, giving a character "Bad Everything" (BAB, Skills, Saves, etc.) is just bad class design. It's in the half-step between LA and racial HD in terms of buying off superior capabilities, and those are rarely worth their cost. Unless this system's manifestation is just that good, it's not worth it.

[Swordguy]

As a GM, my explanation for something like that would be that psions are just emerging as a sub-species of human. They aren't common or well-known, and so people who are psions don't get to "practice" what they do ahead of time. You just "become" a psion, and have to learn to deal with it in-game. Think an X-files or Delta Green-style universe...or a very early-timeline Babylon 5 universe (2100 or thereabout, not the 2200's when the show takes place).

I can't really help you on the mechanical aspects of the game, but on a fluff-level rationale, that's what I think your GM is going for. I would argue, however, that you should get a knowledge skill or two as a class skill based on your background to emulate what you did before you manifested. If you were a carpenter, Knowledge (architecture) would be apropos, or Knowledge (tactics) if you were a soldier.

It's probably going to come down to the question of what's more important, the concept or the mechanics? If you really want to play the psion, be prepared to play it the GM's way. Ask to improve one or two things slightly (have a single good save, for example, or 4+int skill points), but don't go off on him about how the entire class is pointless due to his "being a bad GM", and be prepared to have him say "no". He may have something nice for the psion planned for later on, after all.

[jindra34]

Only reason I can think of implementing this is trying to regulate the power of a class, or group there of. Sadly it seems a relatively ham-handed me (mental power type characters should be expected to have the self-control reflected by good will save progression, plus the essential no background in what you are doing aspect.) Though my final opinion would depend on the fluff (I would ask for it NOW) I doubt I would play in a game where the DM changes basics in for fundementally illogical reasons.

[Trekkin]

Though my final opinion would depend on the fluff (I would ask for it NOW)

And I've gotten it. Apparently psions work "instinctually", and therefore don't get Knowledge skills because that's not what they spend their time actually training. It's the same reason anything that could possibly be construed to do what Able Learner does has been houseruled not to do that. Now, naturally, I'd have to question why an adventuring psion wouldn't pick up the equivalent knowledges just by doing what they do and figuring out how to do it better, let alone undertake such study of their own free will as a means of better utilizing their powers, but apparently it doesn't work that way. I did get that using powers doesn't take a skill check unless you're using them for something "complicated", but given that the fluff behind these powers is mentally rearranging chemical bonds, I'm hard-pressed to think of anything that isn't going to require a Knowledge(chemistry) check.

Thankfully, I rolled a high Int score, so the point is halfway moot, but I'm still trying to figure out the logic behind this design decision other than "your character must be at least this bafflingly incoherent to ride the campaign".

[Knaight]

And I've gotten it. Apparently psions work "instinctually", and therefore don't get Knowledge skills because that's not what they spend their time actually training.

That is just dumb. There is a mechanic for determining what a character is actually spending their time training, its called spending skill points. Its a modern setting, education is assumed, knowledge skills should be available for everyone. Or do psionic abilities somehow magically prevent people from going to school?

[Trekkin]

That is just dumb. There is a mechanic for determining what a character is actually spending their time training, its called spending skill points. Its a modern setting, education is assumed, knowledge skills should be available for everyone. Or do psionic abilities somehow magically prevent people from going to school?

My backstory actually has me as a lab tech, because "microkinesis" (the chemical rearrangement powers) as described in the system would be a potent research tool...and here's where it gets really, really weird.

Every character is more or less gestalt between a racial class that cannot be changed once chosen and a trained class that can be multiclass.(I say more or less because the trained classes are strictly better than the racial classes, so except in odd cases the gestalt is meaningless except for class skill diversification.) The "racial" class is supposed to represent your background (aliens get one, humans can pick from several), and the trained class your chosen adventuring vocation. Apparently, no racial class allows access to knowledge skills because "the dedication to really learn sciences and such requires dedicated study. As such, for a racial class to allow access to any knowledge skill seems a bit unrealistic".

So my racial class is apparently that of a secret agent, because that's the closest fit the system can allow.

[Knaight]

My backstory actually has me as a lab tech, because microkinesis as described in the system would be a potent research tool...and here's where it gets really, really weird.

Every character is more or less gestalt between a racial class that cannot be changed once chosen and a trained class that can be multiclass.(I say more or less because the trained classes are strictly better than the racial classes, so except in odd cases the gestalt is meaningless except for class skill diversification.) The racial class is supposed to represent your background, and the trained class your chosen adventuring vocation. Apparently, no racial class allows access to knowledge skills because "the dedication to really learn sciences and such requires dedicated study. As such, for a racial class to allow access to any knowledge skill seems a bit unrealistic".
Knowledge skills not going with racial classes (I assume you have something like human, psychic human, psionic resistant human) makes sense. Its not having knowledge skills because one has psionic capability that is dumb.

[Trekkin]

Knowledge skills not going with racial classes (I assume you have something like human, psychic human, psionic resistant human) makes sense. Its not having knowledge skills because one has psionic capability that is dumb.

Actually, racial classes like Soldier, G-Man, Badass, and a few more I don't know about, in addition to the species-specific racial class all nonhumans are assigned by default. It's not the clearest of systems.

[Knaight]

Actually, racial classes like Soldier, G-Man, Badass, and a few more I don't know about, in addition to the species-specific racial class all nonhumans are assigned by default. It's not the clearest of systems.

Now this just looks like bad design all around. And arguing that something like Soldier shouldn't have knowledge skills regarding, say, the military is patently absurd.

[Trekkin]

Now this just looks like bad design all around. And arguing that something like Soldier shouldn't have knowledge skills regarding, say, the military is patently absurd.

And yet, my DM insists that it's important to the system that that be the case, which takes me back to my original post: I can't figure out half of these design decisions, so I keep hoping there's some mechanical reason I'm not seeing.

[Knaight]

And yet, my DM insists that it's important to the system that that be the case, which takes me back to my original post: I can't figure out half of these design decisions, so I keep hoping there's some mechanical reason I'm not seeing.

The reason is looking increasingly clear: your GM is a terrible game designer.

[jindra34]

Knaight's got it right, your DM/GM just doesn't quite seem to understand that the mechanics and fluff aren't sticking together. And I can think of a few settings where Psionics work in the manner described by the fluff and in none of them are psion type characters treated as common louts. If the fluff was that psions required massive meditation and asceticism and thus created a disconnect between them and the rest of the world (there upbringing and training literally causing them to process things differently) then I might understand the lack of knowledge skills by default, but it would still create the disconnect in my mind with the low will save progression.

Also Intuitive or instinctive capabilities are represented by Wisdom (and associated skills and features) more than either Constitution or Intelligence.

[Trekkin]

Also Intuitive or instinctive capabilities are represented by Wisdom (and associated skills and features) more than either Constitution or Intelligence.

To be fair, it's not explicitly Con-based; instead of power points, psions have to make a pseudo-fort save or move one step down a Star Wars Saga Edition-type condition track every time they manifest anything, with the DC of that save varying with the level of the power (which is itself capped by level). Level-equivalent hovers at about a 50% chance of success. At the bottom of that track is death, a step above which is unconsciousness (the theoretical bottom, below which only careless psions can go through misuse of their various abilities to forestall fatigue), and the others slap penalties on attack rolls, skill checks, checks to use powers, etc of varying degrees. This is stated to be justified by Con becoming "Tenacity", which feeds into both fort and will saves; a character's Wisdom score no longer affects saving throws.

So Con doesn't determine the pp/day psions get, just how likely it is a given power will massively mess up their day. But hey, basically free cantrips by high level!

[jindra34]

Do you by any chance have what amounts to a full version of these rules/changes. Because having access to them might help us understand your DM's thought process better. Keying the two big saves off of one stat seems is going to cause trouble. Are any other stats changed?

[Trekkin]

Do you by any chance have what amounts to a full version of these rules/changes. Because having access to them might help us understand your DM's thought process better. Keying the two big saves off of one stat seems is going to cause trouble. Are any other stats changed?


I wish I did, but he's only telling us "what we need to know". I do know that weapons are skills now, and Fighter is an 8+Int class to let them take weapons skills. Similarly, armor now adds DR rather than AC, there are three levels of DR, you have to voluntarily reduce your Strength bonus to under +3 to do nonlethal damage...there are a bunch of little changes, but nothing cohesive. I'll see what I can find.

[Thane of Fife]

And I've gotten it. Apparently psions work "instinctually", and therefore don't get Knowledge skills because that's not what they spend their time actually training.

So, uh, what do they spend time training? Not BAB or saves, apparently. Or skill points. Are there other class skills?


Also, are you sure that psion isn't your racial class and secret agent your normal one?

[jindra34]

I wish I did, but he's only telling us "what we need to know". I do know that weapons are skills now, and Fighter is an 8+Int class to let them take weapons skills. Similarly, armor now adds DR rather than AC, there are three levels of DR, you have to voluntarily reduce your Strength bonus to under +3 to do nonlethal damage...there are a bunch of little changes, but nothing cohesive. I'll see what I can find.

So you have Bab and weapons as skills? And if you swing a nonlethal weapon too hard it becomes lethal? And instead of DR having numbers it is now just three levels? Essentially I'm having a huge huh? moment. And you should never play a system where you don't have full access to the rules for character actions at the start.

[Trekkin]

So, uh, what do they spend time training? Not BAB or saves, apparently. Or skill points. Are there other class skills?


Also, are you sure that psion isn't your racial class and secret agent your normal one?

Quite sure, as he explicitly said so. And apparently they spend their time training manifesting exclusively.

I'm starting to dredge up more of the system, and apparently:

1. If fighters can do +1d6-+3d6 damage per swing, they can quickly catch up to casters. Direct quote.
2. Precision damage (which includes both sneak attacks and crits) only counts if you penetrate something's DR with your normal damage.
3. DR decays when hit, like Saga Edition shields.
4. If your movement rate is 5 squares per round faster than someone else's, you can become invisible to them by moving. Move speed also grants a bonus to attack, damage rolls, and AC, which is now DR.

I think I'm going to have to revise my earlier query: How much of an overhaul does this system need?

[Mando Knight]

This guy really doesn't seem to know what he's doing. Play with him if you feel the need to, but all signs are pointing to "get out now."

The overhaul I personally think it needs is (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━━┻

[Coidzor]

They're a paranoid **** who decided to limit the magic system from the wrong direction, mostly.


And yet, my DM insists that it's important to the system that that be the case, which takes me back to my original post: I can't figure out half of these design decisions, so I keep hoping there's some mechanical reason I'm not seeing.

Then you're too trusting in this case and looking for goodness where there is none, or so it seems.

[jindra34]

I think at this point it would be easier to start from the ground and fluff then it would be to overhaul the system into something playable while preserving the fluff. The D20 system is incredibly finicky, and due to their inherent unrealism hard to adapt to a complete change of world as your DM is doing.

[Thane of Fife]

Quite sure, as he explicitly said so. And apparently they spend their time training manifesting exclusively.

Wait, does manifesting require knowledge skills, or are those skills required to achieve effects? I mean, on a macroscopic scale, could you automatically lift things with your mind, but need Knowledge; Architecture to build a house out of them, or is the skill necessary for absolutely anything? (Note that I understand that such a power might not be available, but it serves as an analogy, I think)


4. If your movement rate is 5 squares per round faster than someone else's, you can become invisible to them by moving. Move speed also grants a bonus to attack, damage rolls, and AC, which is now DR.

I can grasp this, from an urban fantasy perspective, but uh, the scale seems a bit odd. That means that flying bats are invisible to humans. Horses are invisible to halflings. Humans are invisible to toads.

[erikun]

At this point, I don't think you will be able to identify an overall theme or direction to your GM's houserules. These aren't part of a 'common' or 'generic' homebrew that is popular on the internet; as far as I can tell, most of these changes seem to be whatever the GM felt should be changed.

It looks like you are playing some kind of Star Wars d20/d20 Modern hybrid, with lots of houserules.

Pretty much the only thing I can suggest would be to stick around only if you enjoy spending time with these people. It seems like your GM is either refusing to tell you the rules of the system or is making them up as he goes along, so it does not seem like you will ever get a clear look at everything that is available.

[Trekkin]

Wait, does manifesting require knowledge skills, or are those skills required to achieve effects?

For this specific field of psionics, called microkinesis, knowledge checks are required to know what you're doing. Apparently my char could psionically sharpen a knife, for instance, without such a check, but the bulk of the power, that of rearranging chemical bonds mentally, requires K(chem) checks to work. For instance, severing a hemp rope by depolymerizing the cellulose or magnetizing a chunk of iron by rearranging the domains require such checks.

Perhaps there's some major utility to the power I'm not seeing, but the functions it was listed as being able to fulfill are explicitly said to need K(chem) or K(bio) checks. I can still manifest without them, and can still throw things around without them through telekinesis, but that's an entire school of psionics dependent on skills psions don't get.

The powers are described as more rules-light and flexible than spells, to be sure, but I've thrown dozens of examples at my GM and been told they all require such checks, so I'm left to wonder what utility he intended for microscopic, submicroscopic, molecular, atomic, and eventually subatomic telekinesis that wouldn't fall under the umbrella of biology, chemistry, or physics. These weren't complex examples, either; see the magnet example above.

[jindra34]

For this specific field of psionics, called microkinesis, knowledge checks are required to know what you're doing. Apparently my char could psionically sharpen a knife, for instance, without such a check, but the bulk of the power, that of rearranging chemical bonds mentally, requires K(chem) checks to work. For instance, severing a hemp rope by depolymerizing the cellulose or magnetizing a chunk of iron by rearranging the domains require such checks.


Those uses I can see as requiring Knowledge checks, as they are pretty much using your abilities as tools to literally manipulate single atoms. That is stuff that is pretty advanced chemistry, biology and physics. And why would you want to sever a rope by depolymerizing it when you could just give it a quick clean cut?

[The Glyphstone]

What would I assume? I'd assume the GM has never homebrewed before, and should probably get some smaller projects under his belt before taking on an entire game system from scratch.

[Trekkin]

Those uses I can see as requiring Knowledge checks, as they are pretty much using your abilities as tools to literally manipulate single atoms. That is stuff that is pretty advanced chemistry, biology and physics. And why would you want to sever a rope by depolymerizing it when you could just give it a quick clean cut?

Because if you can depolymerize a rope, you can probably do it to, say, bulletproof Lexan windows. Those are harder to cut.

And I quite agree a Knowledge check would make sense. Where I start scratching my head is when those abilities, in a larger sence, are explicitly described as the essence of that school of psionics, (manipulating single atoms was stated verbatim) and they require those checks without making those Knowledge skills class skills.

[Dingle]

Maybe he's trying to give a choice between Power and versatility

if you want to use raw power, just keep taking psion levels

if you want to play with stuff, you have to multiclass to scientist every few levels.

it gives warlock/wizard or sorc/wizard in only 1 base class

[LibraryOgre]

Just from what you've described, I'd say he's looking for a relatively low-powered game. He wanted psychic powers to reflect game-world knowledge, as opposed to being an esoteric branch of knowledge, and their own skill. A skilled psychic will understand what he's doing in the physical world, not just mumbo-jumbo that doesn't have any other applications (i.e. Spellcraft is useful for nothing but magic).

By making them non-class skills, he was probably trying to keep power levels under control, but you can mimic that by increasing the DCs of everything by 5-10 points.

[Tyndmyr]

Thus my question, Playgrounders, as I've got this nascent system in front of me and am quite earnestly puzzled as to what I'm to do with it. What would you, as a player, think if, say, Spellcraft were suddenly not a class skill for Wizards, or Truespeak not a class skill for Truenamers?

Based on D20M? I'd assume that the OP did not fully understand the different ways to get the skill cap boosted to class skill levels. Or more negatively, that he did, and thought it was a secret he could later exploit.


As a designer, why might you implement something like this?

I wouldn't put something so obviously exploitable in a class like that.

Edit: Upon reading further(note that in D20, able learner is printed in multiple books), I am forced to conclude that he is an inexperience homebrewer who doesn't have the requisite experience with the system. He probably thinks he's being clever. It's not. Note that his explanations are confusing, and resemble someone who, rather than admit he made a mistake, insists that EVERYTHING ELSE is the mistake, and begins changing that.

I would personally avoid such a game.

[Sith_Happens]

For this specific field of psionics, called microkinesis, knowledge checks are required to know what you're doing. Apparently my char could psionically sharpen a knife, for instance, without such a check, but the bulk of the power, that of rearranging chemical bonds mentally, requires K(chem) checks to work. For instance, severing a hemp rope by depolymerizing the cellulose or magnetizing a chunk of iron by rearranging the domains require such checks.


Apparently psions work "instinctually",

These two things in combination make no sense. If psions do their thing by instinct, then they should instinctually know how to cut a rope or make a magnet, even if they failed high school chemistry. You don't have to evaluate a quadratic function to know where a thrown object is going to land, you've evolved the ability to eyeball it. Likewise, a psion would be able to "feel out" what exactly he's doing to an object without necessarily knowing the physics behind it.