Wizard vs. Sorcerer. What's the better choice?

[Campbellk8105]

In campaigns I play in I don't typically play a whole lot of spellcaster types. A few of my friends always Play magic users and always choose sorcerer over wizard, or the choose wizard and the use a "Wizards suck ritual" and it converts them from wizard to sorcerer. I know a bonus for sorcerers is that they don't need a spell book but otherwise I'm just curious why they play sorcerers over wizards.

[legomaster00156]

Is this 3.5 or Pathfinder?

[nolispe]

Wizards are just about universally better.
This is due to a series of factors:
- WIzards have a faster spellcasting progression, getting new spells a level before sorcs, basically making them a level higher than any given sorc for all important purposes.
- Wizards get bonus feats - not great, but something.
- Wizards can change out their spell selection each day, which is the important one, as this means they can alter themselves to perfectly fit any given challenge.
- Wizards can happily have spells in their spellbook for just about every contingency ever, and they're only ever eight hours away from that.
EDIT: Or fifteen minutes. Always forget that. Also, uncanny forethought.
- Wizards are Int based, which is a better stat than Cha, since it also gives them a zillion skill points.
- Wizards can use metamagic without being shafted, as opposed to sorcs.

And probably a few other ones.

The main reasons that Sorcerers sometimes seem to be better are:
- Spontaneity in their spells, wihch is pretty much irrelevant as they know so few spells anyway that it's all but worthless. Despite this, this is the only thing sorcs really have against wizards, with the exception of a few spells (wings of flurry, etc)
- More spells. This is minor, as by about fifth level you'll never run out of spells anyway. And a focused specialist wizard catches up to the sorc on spells per day. Oh, and the Wizard's already a level ahead, so...
- Not needing a spellbook - pretty minor, really. It's just a book. Carry it around.

[Zergrusheddie]

There is no real mechanical reason to play a Sorcerer over a Wizard; the Wizard is flat out better. For player reasons, I would say it's because they don't like having to prepare spells or like being able to cast more often.

[AmberVael]

- Wizards can happily have spells in their spellbook for just about every contingency ever, and they're only ever eight hours away from that.

Note that this is eight hours at most. A clever wizard with enough slots to spare will leave a few slots open and prepare them as things come up- it takes 15 minutes to prepare it, of course, so it's not a combat viable tactic, but cutting down waiting from 8 hours to 15 minutes can be really useful.


I agree with those who have said the wizard is more powerful, but I know a lot of people who find the sorcerer more enjoyable to play, if only because they're simpler and more streamlined. To someone who doesn't enjoy the complexity of wizard spell preparing, the sorcerer may well be stronger- if you prepare the wrong spells and don't keep track of which ones you have, need to get, and so on, your wizard won't be very strong. Versatility is where their power comes from.

[hex0]

Sorcerer have some sorcerer only spells and Draconic feats. I really like Draconic Vigor.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The only reason to play Sorcerer over Wizard is that Wizards require a LOT more bookkeeping on the player's part, which can get exceedingly involved and complicated, if one utilizes all the resources available.

A sorcerer gains a set amount of spells known. That's it. His spell list sheet probably won't be more than a couple of pages, even well into epic.

A Wizard, on the other hand, gains 2/level, then however many scrolls he can beg, borrow, or steal, plus whatever wizard guilds are out there who makes libraries available for copying. Theoretically, a Wizard could have literally every single spell ever published on the Wiz/Sorc list in his grimoires (although he'd need multiple BBB's to pull it off, but by no means impossible).

Then there's the recovery method, which is a whole 'nother set of book keeping. Sorcerers don't need to worry about which spells they prep that day, they have their spells known... and that's it. Wizards have to choose, on a daily basis, which spells they are going to use that day.

This is seen as a huge nerf to Wizards by most casual players because they fail to realize that they can set up a spell list that does it all, and further fails to realize that they can utilize various divination magics to plug in the free slots with *exactly* what they need that day.

However, this does mean that it can take a wizard player who is unfamiliar with this process several hours to get his Spells Known list down pat, which is a severe annoyance to the rest of the players at the table. So they mostly just take the exact same spell list on a daily basis, and hope it works out... so basically 'sorcerer lite' because they never change up their spell list. This is where the majority of 'sorcerers are better than wizards' rumors come from... pure laziness or lack of preparedness on the part of an individual playing a Wizard.

tl;dr version: Wizards have an amazing amount of flexibility over a Sorcerer, but only if the player is willing to put in the real-life time and effort into it.

[legomaster00156]

A sorcerer gains a set amount of spells known. That's it. His spellbook probably won't be more than a couple of pages, even well into epic.
Unless he takes levels in Wizard (Sorcerer/Wizard is completely unoptimized, though), he'll never have a spellbook.:smallconfused:

[gbprime]

Sorcerer is easier on the GM, yes. the player cannot handle every single contingency that crops up, even after receiving piles and piles of loot. The wizard can handle anything with enough prep and money for spells in his spell book.

So players like wizards, GMs like sorcerers. :smallamused:

[Emperor Tippy]

I agree with those who have said the wizard is more powerful, but I know a lot of people who find the sorcerer more enjoyable to play, if only because they're simpler and more streamlined. To someone who doesn't enjoy the complexity of wizard spell preparing, the sorcerer may well be stronger- if you prepare the wrong spells and don't keep track of which ones you have, need to get, and so on, your wizard won't be very strong. Versatility is where their power comes from.
I'll second this.

To play a good wizard and enjoy it requires a mind set that not everyone has. It's also probably the most time consuming class to build and play well.

We play D&D for fun and enjoyment, not as a chore or to win a prize for "winning" the game.

For the majority of people, a Sorcerer will probably be consistently more fun and less work to play. It also has the benefit of forcing you to be innovative with your use of spells.

[BlackestOfMages]

Sorcerer have some sorcerer only spells and Draconic feats. I really like Draconic Vigor.

the problem with the draconic feats though is most of them give you abilities that you missed out on by having such a limited spell selection, which feels a bit cheap that you have feats specifically to fix the huge holes in your class the wizard is dangeling in front of you...

[Calliope121]

I find sorcerers to be much better than wizards. Yes, a wizard can cast any spell in their spell book, but I would say that only one in ten wizards actually bother to have spellbooks written down ( at least that I have noticed) Mechanically, I would agree that the wizard is slightly more powerful, but they are time consuming, break up play, and even though they can choose to memorize spells in 15 minutes, sometimes you don't need a whole bunch of fancy spells, because if you prepared all your spells for combat, and suddenly come across a pit with a monster behind you, you still don't have the right spell, and you have less spells than a sorcerer, so you will run out of fire faster.

[Emperor Tippy]

Sorcerer is easier on the GM, yes. the player cannot handle every single contingency that crops up, even after receiving piles and piles of loot. The wizard can handle anything with enough prep and money for spells in his spell book.
Not really true. A well built and well played Sorcerer is almost as versatile as an average batman wizard. You just have to be really careful of your feat and item selection and choose well.

[Psyren]

Pretty much what Shneekey said. Which you choose depends on how much convenience you're willing to give up (or your DM to assist you with) for power.

Do note that Focused Specialist Wizards get as many spells/day as a Sorcerer while only giving up minimal utility (with proper spell selection/party make-up.)

[gbprime]

Not really true. A well built and well played Sorcerer is almost as versatile as an average batman wizard. You just have to be really careful of your feat and item selection and choose well.

That I agree with. Plus the sorcerer doesn't usurp the roles of the other party members nearly as often.

[hex0]

Unless he takes levels in Wizard (Sorcerer/Wizard is completely unoptimized, though), he'll never have a spellbook.:smallconfused:

Ultimate Magus?

[Campbellk8105]

So essentially it just comes down to the player and the effort he wants to put into maintaining a spell list/book. One of my friends simply made a few different "Spell Lists" from his spellbook to prepare each day based on what we might do or know what we're going to do. Keeping of course the spells that can be handy in many situations.

Ahhh Grease, how I love you so.

[Emperor Tippy]

It also depends on what level the players are.

Once you get Shapechange it becomes at least an order of magnitude easier to get your spell list set up thanks to all of the options it gives you to replicate spells.

[Doc Roc]

At relatively low optimization levels, at least by my standards, there are some serious perks to being a sorcerer. Runestaves help allieviate some of your troubles, Drakehelms offer some cool stuff otherwise unavailable, arcane spellsurge is basically undiluted joy straight from the jug, and a couple of good MM reducers want you to be a spontaneous caster.

Now, if you think that Spontaneous Divination makes wizards spontaneous casters (and it probably does), and you don't mind playing carefully and with great thought, then wizards are probably superior in most cases outside of some of the very highest end tricks.

Then again, there's always Loredrake + Draconic Rite Dragonwrought Kobolds.

If you want to expand your spell list as a sorcerer, I can help. If you want to be a favored soul, and be hilariously OP, I can help.

[Essence_of_War]

Another plus for sorcerers that I didn't see mentioned was "on the fly metamagic".

Not having to choose your metamagic slots in advance is a huge perk for the sorcerer. The downside of this, that metamagic'd spells take a full round action, is trivially bypassed by a feat (rapid metamagic), an ACF (PHB2, familiar) and/or a spell (arcane spellsurge). This perk, along with the cool sorcerer only spells, are explored to their logical limit by DeAnno's Mailman (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer).

Some of the sorcerer only spells are just really fun:
Wings of Flurry - uncapped d6/level force damage + daze? don't mind if I do!
Wings of Cover - a potent 'no' button
Regular and Greater Arcane Fusion - SO saucy.

Finally, an additional aesthetic reason is the old observation that restrictions breed creativity. Having a limited spell list is a big restriction, but some players can get really excited about having to make that limited spell list 'work' in campaign that promises lots of different situations.

[JohnDaBarr]

Well somehow I believe Sorcerer is a better choice in low to mid games and after 13-15 lvl wizard has the upper hand. Besides most people and my DnD group never or rarely go to the high lvl's.

I personally prefer the Wiz but Sorc is a really nice choice.

And yeah Ultimate Magus is a good way to go but I believe Beguiler is a better choice, anyway you go you'll have more spell slots then HP!

[Novawurmson]

Who are you going to be playing with? If you're playing with a Druid, a Cleric, and an Artificer, go Wizard. If you're playing with a Ranger, Barbarian, and a Rogue, go Sorcerer; you'll be closer to everyone else's power level.

[Lans]

Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer/full list caster >Wizard unless theirs a trick I don't know about. Either getting a full spell level ahead of the wizard or all cleric or druid spells known.

[Emperor Tippy]

Nah, mechanically and power wise the wizard is always better off than the Sorcerer.

Being a level behind on spells, having a limited spell list, having to deal with their meta problems; Sorcerer is mechanically inferior to the wizard in terms of potential power.

Which does nothing to change the fact that the Sorcerer is still one of the most powerful classes in the game (and arguably the second most powerful of the core classes), is great fun to play, and takes about 1/100th as much time and effort when compared to a wizard.

[Doc Roc]

Loredrake + Draconic Rite, Tippy. Depending on your reading of dragonspawn abominations, this could get even worse, but I think one could comfortably argue that there's no way to abominate a dragonwrought.

[Wings of Peace]

Sorcerer is better than the Wizard in that it's easier to learn to play because there's no planning ahead past what spell to learn. However, in the hands of an experienced player the Wizard is going to be the superior class because the player will be able to guess with reasonable accuracy what spells he'll need to cover any situations that may arise.

I myself just have my Wizards take Versatile Spellcaster.

[Doc Roc]

It is interesting to note that it is much easier at high-op levels to switch your spells known than your spells prepared in general. Uncanny Foresight helps even this for the Wizard though... Hard to say here.
Limited Wish -> Psychic Reformation == Rebuild All Spells!

[sonofzeal]

I do find that Spontaneous Spellcasting is seriously underrated. I've gamed in almost a dozen different groups, and I have never once seen a Wizard be prepared for every contingency, or a Wizard who knows exactly what's going to happen in a day (unless everyone does). The flexibility of changing your spell list every day is only useful if you have a solid idea of what's needed. Even if you know that you'll be doing some infiltration and to expect locked doors and you prepare "Knock", how many do you prep? Every Knock you prep is one less Invisibility or Alter Self or Detect Thoughts, all good infiltration spells, and how do you make that choice without thorough foreknowledge? You can take one of each, but then the second locked door thwarts you.

And, let's face it, these things often come in chunks. You might not need a spell for weeks and then suddenly that's ALL you need.

A spontaneous caster's limited Spells Known is troublesome yes, but if you pick your toolbox well then you always have something appropriate - and more importantly, you have it in sufficient quantity to be useful. A Sorc may not have Knock but will likely have one spell to deal with solid physical obstacles, and if you face four locked doors that day then the Sorc can cast that spell four times.



And yes, the Wiz can use scrolls to extend their number of casts, but a Sorc can use them to cover up contingencies their list doesn't cover too.


(All that said, Wiz still gets spells earlier, and Focused Specialist Wizard gets more spells than Sorc, and both of those are big advantages. But ignoring those, I'd far rather have a Sorc's Spontaneous mechanic than a Wizard's Prepared mechanic, any day of the week.)

[jiriku]

It is interesting to note that it is much easier at high-op levels to switch your spells known than your spells prepared in general. Uncanny Foresight helps even this for the Wizard though... Hard to say here.
Limited Wish -> Psychic Reformation == Rebuild All Spells!

Mmmm, true, but since replacing all of your prepared spells requires only a sanctum rary's arcane conversion and a repeat sanctum mordenkainen's lucubration, it's not that much more difficult to change your prepared spells.

[Rubik]

I prefer psions, myself. All the (nonbroken) benefits of a sorcerer combined with a number of benefits of a wizard (and without the paperwork).

You don't get the uberpowerful spells or the insanity of spell slots, but that's a plus for me, too.

[FearlessGnome]

Limited Wish -> Psychic Reformation == Rebuild All Spells!

I saw this somewhere before. Get a knowstone of LW -> Spend just enough exp to swap for the spells you need, when you need them (You can get a lower level spell from a higher slot).

How long does the psychic reformation take? Just a standard action due to LW? Because give the sorcerer the ability to swap spells known in the middle of combat, and suddenly wizards don't look so much stronger anymore.

[Shadow Lord]

StP Erudites. They can do everything both of the others can do, and then some.

[Wings of Peace]

StP Erudites. They can do everything both of the others can do, and then some.

Except Metamagic.

[DeAnno]

The XP cost of limited wish makes it an awkward option for spamming to change spells midcombat, but it is a good option to smooth out leveling and for switching spells around once in a while.

The Sorc's only big advantage over the Wizard is action economy, with the Fusion line and easier use of Arcane Spellsurge (not counting the insanity of Loredrake skeeze). There are other small useful things like Wings of Cover as well, and the ability to arguably gish better with the classic Sorcadin builds. Also, if you use a Greater Draconic Rite then you free up a class level at the end where you can dip Marshal and have a huge party bonus to either initiative or Spell Penetration or some other important thing.

Spontaneous casting is better than people give it credit for, and still worse than prepared casting in most circumstances. If you are not the primary caster in your party though it can be useful for very focused characters responsible for a specific role (I've found the Mailman makes a good bodyguard for Batman in cases where the DM makes things difficult instead of easy).

[holywhippet]

I would be tempted to say the sorcerer outclasses the wizard at very low levels. Those extra spells per day can make a difference at the start of the game. At higher levels the balance shifts because magical devices become more available. Either class can invest in items like scrolls, potions and especially wands to round out any holes in their casting abilities.

I'd say the sorcerer might have an edge if they are forced into an unexpected battle. A wizard might have spells that won't work on the enemies they are facing. For example, sleep and color spray won't work on undead. A sorcerer in the same situation is almost certain to have a straight up blasting spell they can fall back on.

Generally though, the sheer number of spells available to a wizard will mean they can be prepared for any kind of contingency.

Here's a question though - if you only wanted a level or two dip to qualify for a PrC, would you go sorcerer or wizard? I'd think sorcerer since the benefits of being a wizard are long term.

[Emperor Tippy]

A lot of it really depends on 1) the respective players, 2) the starting level, and 3) how cheesy each player is willing to go.

I've also found that it tends to be a poor wizard who actually runs low on spells or doesn't have a spell that's useful.

Go Elf Generalist with Spontaneous Divination are you pretty much have to be doing something wrong to run low on spells.

There is also the fact that a lot of spells are far more useful and capable than most people give them credit for.

I could probably take out the average level 20 sorcerer or wizard build using nothing more than 5th level or lower spell slots; and do so safely.

[hex0]

Sorcerers have a better skill list, if that is anything. (Other than ALL the knowledge skills)

Bluff can be one of the best skills because of the synergy boosts and everything. And a high CHA means Sorcerer can be the face.

[Rubik]

Sorcerers have a better skill list, if that is anything. (Other than ALL the knowledge skills)

Bluff can be one of the best skills because of the synergy boosts and everything. And a high CHA means Sorcerer can be the face.

But they only have 2 skill points per level, and no other reason at all aside from skills to boost Int. And those 2 points are going to Concentration and Spellcraft.

[Lans]

Actually they have an ACF that lets them Intelligence mod times per day applay a metamagic with out increasing casting time.

[Eldariel]

Actually they have an ACF that lets them Intelligence mod times per day applay a metamagic with out increasing casting time.

Which is a far cry from Rapid Metamagic feat which removes the limitation entirely. Fact is you're still paying approximately a feat for it (the ACF trades Familiar, which is also a feat).

[DeAnno]

But they only have 2 skill points per level, and no other reason at all aside from skills to boost Int. And those 2 points are going to Concentration and Spellcraft.

It's because of this that Sorcerer is generally more of a fan of high point buy than the Wizard.

[sonofzeal]

Actually they have an ACF that lets them Intelligence mod times per day applay a metamagic with out increasing casting time.
...which is usually enough because the difference between a standard action and a full round action, while critical for a melee sort, is of less value to a mage who regularly has little or nothing to spend that extra move action on. Most casters in most of my games rarely move-and-cast. Once they're comfortably behind the beatsticks, they just hang around lobbing spells. Full-round casting doesn't hurt them much at all. Sometimes that move action's important... but not all that regularly.

[DeAnno]

Actually they have an ACF that lets them Intelligence mod times per day applay a metamagic with out increasing casting time.

The more overlooked ACF is the free Draconic Heritage, which can give something really useful like Hide or Spot as a class skill.

[Ormur]

Yeah, the Wizard can be a bother to play. I needed like three spreadsheets and a bunch of time each session to organize my spellslots. Fortunately the other player was a Druid that took even longer (preparing spells and checking out wildshape forms). Nothing beats that ultimate power though.

Another constraint I found was time. The campaign was quite deliberately time sensitive and I often couldn't learn all the spells I'd have wished for or scribe all the scrolls with situational spells that would have allowed me to free up more spell slots. It's true I didn't really run out but habitual teleportation, stuff like assay spell resistance quicken true-strike or other low level spells and the occasional unforeseen immunity meant that I couldn't fully utilize the wizard's versatility. At least at my level of optimization.

[Calanon]

I agree with those who have said the wizard is more powerful, but I know a lot of people who find the sorcerer more enjoyable to play, if only because they're simpler and more streamlined. To someone who doesn't enjoy the complexity of wizard spell preparing, the sorcerer may well be stronger- if you prepare the wrong spells and don't keep track of which ones you have, need to get, and so on, your wizard won't be very strong. Versatility is where their power comes from.

I play D&D with 4 different groups of players and show up to every game (I play 7 days a week usually after school) and play a Wizard in all of them, the problem of preparing spells has never really come up for me since after a while your going to have favorite spells that you like more than other spells and will prepare them more often then others. Eventually you start playing as a Sorcerer with a spellbook, the only thing I've noticed that Wizards have over Sorcerers is the ability to best use Item creation feats to the best potential and even then that is limited However, I do like Wizards over Sorcerers.

[candycorn]

For people who think wizard has less slots than sorceror... It need not be so.

{table]Class| Lv 1 | Lv 5 | Lv 10 | Lv 15 | Lv 20
Elf Generalist | 3/2 | 4/3/2/2 | 4/4/4/3/3/3 | 4/4/4/4/4/4/3/2/2 | 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/5
Focused Specialist | 5/3 | 6/5/4/3 | 6/6/6/5/5/4 | 6/6/6/6/6/6/5/4/3 | 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6
Sorceror | 5/3 | 6/6/4/- | 6/6/6/6/5/3 | 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4/- | 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6[/table]
At level 1: Focused Specialist ties spells at all levels, Elf generalist is -2/-1.
At level 5: Focused Specialist is 0/-1/0/+3, Elf is -2/-3/-2/+2.
At level 10: Focused Specialist is 0/0/0/-1/0/+1, Elf is -2/-2/-2/-3/-2/0.
At level 15: Focused Specialist is 0/0/0/0/0/0/-1/0/+3, Elf is -2/-2/-2/-2/-2/-2/-3/-2/+2.
At level 20: Focused Specialist ties spells at all levels, Elf is -2/-2/-2/-2/-2/-2/-2/-2/-2/-1.

That's in prepared spells. As you can see, leveling, focused specialist tends to have more higher level spells and slightly fewer lower level spells. (odd levels are +3 of highest level, -1 of spell 2 levels lower, starting at level 3. even levels are +1 of highest level, -1 of spell slot 2 levels lower.) That's a net gain.

And yes, you give up a lot of schools for focused specialist. You still have more day-to-day versatility, given good spell specialization choices.

[Doc Roc]

I do seem to remember there are some good ways to get moar spellz/day as a sorcerer, as well, but I don't know what they are off the top of my head, other than playing a tainted scholar and cackling mindlessly.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I do seem to remember there are some good ways to get moar spellz/day as a sorcerer, as well, but I don't know what they are off the top of my head, other than playing a tainted scholar and cackling mindlessly.

There's the Nightmare Spinner, which gives a bonus Illusion spell slot per spell level, as if you specialized, but that costs a spellcaster level. There are also those wacky kobold tricks, which help leap frog your way past the wizard in terms of actual levels.

There's probably more, but those are the ones that come immediately to mind.

[Axier]

It really depends on how you like to play. If you want to optimize, than specialist away, but Sorcs get different feats and don't step on others toes as much. If you are worried about Metamagic, there is an alternate class ability that will replace your familiar with metamagic utility in UA. It is also IMHO a lot more entertaining to play Sorcerer, and if you work it you can get plenty of utility to it.

At the end of the day, Dwraught Kobold Loredrake is superior in all cases, but some DMs might not like it. It is pretty gouda.

Sorc/Psionic Class Cerebramancer is kinda nice as well.

[Niceman]

Forgive me if I wax long or digress as I am known to do, but here goes. For me it's not so much what's better as every situation is different. In general if there's time to prepare I think the wizard's versatility wins, but while limited, a sorcerer is always ready with what they've got at a moment's notice.

Both have strengths and weaknesses. The trick is managing them effectively. In our weekly game we have both a wizard and a sorcerer. I play the wizard. It's been touched on before, but while I hold the lead in versatility, our Sorcerer can really exploit certain situations. I'll have a wide range of spells, but only one or maybe two memorizations of any given one. The sorcerer list is limited but he has his complete list at all times. If he finds fireball is really effective, then all of his third levels can be fireballs. I may have one or two then I have to improvise with less effective lower spells or overkill with higher. Conversely many's the time I'll have just the right spell for dealing with an unexpected situation and the sorcerer has to step back and let me handle it.

There is another aspect which is more ambiguous and largely overlooked, but still rather important. The RP in RPG stands for Role-Playing. What you play goes hand in hand with how you play it and that can make the difference in what's better. By and large the general styles of sorcerers and wizards are different and both excel in their own situations. Yes I know that you can play your character with whatever personality and style, but I'm talking in general terms their personalities and styles go hand in hand with how they handle their spells.

In our game, my wizard is the go-to guy for the level headed plan, knowledge, matters of the arcane, and general leadership. He is enigmatic and powerful and commands respect both inside the group and negotiating with others. Conversely, our sorcerer is flamboyant and impulsive and thinks on his feet. He's dynamic and personable and looks at things sideways. Puzzles bore him so he'll use his magic outside the box in order to get around things rather than power through them.

[Emperor Tippy]

Elf Generalist Grey Elf with 18 base int has
4/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/7

A max Cha Sorcerer (36 at level 20) has
6/10/9/9/9/9/8/8/8/8

Throw in Domain wizard and the Wizard gets an addition spell per level.

Domain Elf Generalist Grey Elf Wizard with Spontaneous Divination is potentially far more powerful in high level play than any of the specialist variants.

Especially when you add in a PrC like Incantatrix which requires giving up a school. With Spontaneous Divination making specializing in Divination a lot less appealing, a specialist can end up with 3 schools missing if they go Incantatrix.

And Focused Specialist can be worse. 2 lost schools for non Divination specialization, 1 more from Focused Specialist, 1 more from Incantatrix leaving you with about half your schools left.

---
Basically, I don't recommend specialization in higher level play. Even Evocation gains enough spells from expanded sources that you actually notice missing it.

Where specialization can become real good is if you are using wizard as part of either a gish build or one of the various duel progression builds, because you can cover the missing spells out of your other casting class or you don't need them.

[nolispe]

There's the Nightmare Spinner, which gives a bonus Illusion spell slot per spell level, as if you specialized, but that costs a spellcaster level. There are also those wacky kobold tricks, which help leap frog your way past the wizard in terms of actual levels.

There's probably more, but those are the ones that come immediately to mind.

Actually, the Dragonwrought trick can be applied to Wizards fairly easily as well, since you might as well take Spellhoarding and have your uber caster level be in Wizard Casting, which is of course a level faster anyway. And while at that point you're playing a sorcerer, you're a Wizard in all but name.
So Spellhoarding Dragonwrought kobold > ordinary Dragonwrought kobold, if we're going to that cheese level.

[gorfnab]

Here is a thread from BG on how to make spontaneous wizards:
How you make your wizard like a spontaneous caster. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7150.0)

Also here is my "Easy Bake Wizard" which basically uses some tricks already mentioned in this thread. It basically removes two liabilities of the wizard, the spellbook and the familiar. If you really want the familiar anyways you can take Obtain Familiar as a feat. The other thing that the Easy Bake Wizard can potentially do is Vow of Poverty (not a bad option in gear/magic item shortage games like World's Largest Dungeon).

Elf, preferably Gray

Elf Wizard Racial Sub - Races of the Wild
Eidetic Spellcaster ACF - Dragon Magazine #357
Spontaneous Divination ACF - Complete Champion - Optional but great at higher levels
Collegiate Wizard feat - Complete Arcane

1st Level - 7+ Int mod 1st level spells known, all cantrips, 1 extra spell per day of highest level
No Familiar, No Scribe Scroll, No Spellbook

For a little cheese look into Domain Wizard from UA since it does stack with the Elf Wizard Racial Sub.

Note: Every level after 1st that advances wizard spellcasting gets you 5 spells known for free instead of the usual 2

Edit: If you're playing in Eberron, the feat Aerenal Arcanist (Player's Guide to Eberron) will net you an additional spell known per level netting you 8+Int spells at 1st level and 6 additional spells known every level after that.

[Leon]

The one that does what you want it to how you want to.

I prefer Sorcerers but sometimes the Idea i have for a character just screams wizard.
Sorcerers require a lil bit more thought when selecting spells but i'd recommend them any day of the week to a new player over a Wizard due to the otherwise simplicity and lack of book keeping.

[ericgrau]

There is no real mechanical reason to play a Sorcerer over a Wizard; the Wizard is flat out better. For player reasons, I would say it's because they don't like having to prepare spells or like being able to cast more often.

You gotta be careful about strictly better arguments. In the case you mentioned where players don't prepare new spells, there's a big advantage to being able to cast 3 X, 2 Y and 0 Z without knowing the exact combination before combat rather than 1 W, 1 X, 1 Y, 1 Z whether you need it or not. Select spells that are good even at low level, and some level disadvantage starts disappearing, at least after 3rd-4th level spells. So for lazy players of about level 8 or so the sorcerer can be better in almost every way. And lots of people don't like to micromanage, so it's the way to go for them.

[Tytalus]

Being a level behind on spells, [...]; Sorcerer is mechanically inferior to the wizard in terms of potential power.


Loredrake + Draconic Rite, Tippy.

While true, this argument applies only to kobolds PCs in games that accept serious cheese (applying loredrake in this context), and not to sorcerers in general. So Tippy's point stands just fine.

[Vowtz]

- More spells. This is minor, as by about fifth level you'll never run out of spells anyway. And a focused specialist wizard catches up to the sorc on spells per day. Oh, and the Wizard's already a level ahead, so...
- Not needing a spellbook -pretty minor, really. It's just a book. Carry it around.True, If you play on very easy mode.

[Doc Roc]

Of potential interest...
I may have figured out a way to dragonspawn a dragonwrought.

[Tyndmyr]

True, If you play on very easy mode.

I agree that volume of spells can matter. I tend to dump spells like candy. IMO, the optimal mage runs dry on spells at exactly the same time as he runs out of opponents. That'll get you the maximal per-day use from your magic. Yes, depending on level, this can indeed mean more than four encounters. That said, the extra spells over a focused specialist/domain wizard is minimal, and I don't feel that it's enough to justify other weaknesses, like being a level behind.

However, the spellbook does not matter. If the spellbook is defended(IE, everyone wants to listen to the giant pile of preparations), there is essentially no chance of it being stolen or destroyed. It's best to just not bother to target it, while they don't bother to tediously list the defenses. Best for all concerned.

[Mustard]

Here's what I like about sorcerers: You never need to say, "I'm out of Glitterdusts!" You simply choose to cast it again, as opposed to whatever else you would've prepared in advance, were you a wizard. This doesn't make them automatically better than wizards or anything, but it's a nice little luxury to enjoy when the situation comes up.

But my actual answer for the question stated by the thread title is: "Both. Play one first, then the other." Your future character queue may be long, in which case, I say: find a way. :smallsmile:

[hex0]

Actually, the Dragonwrought trick can be applied to Wizards fairly easily as well, since you might as well take Spellhoarding and have your uber caster level be in Wizard Casting, which is of course a level faster anyway. And while at that point you're playing a sorcerer, you're a Wizard in all but name.
So Spellhoarding Dragonwrought kobold > ordinary Dragonwrought kobold, if we're going to that cheese level.

Non-cheese version, play a Kobold Wizard and do the rite of greater draconic passage and then go into Ultimate Magus.

[Vowtz]

However, the spellbook does not matter. If the spellbook is defended(IE, everyone wants to listen to the giant pile of preparations), there is essentially no chance of it being stolen or destroyed. It's best to just not bother to target it, while they don't bother to tediously list the defenses. Best for all concerned.Simple situation: your party had some encounters, and you exausted most of your spells, you have another fight, lose, and are imprisoned.

After 8 hours of rest and 15 minutes of preparation, a sorcerer could escape easily, and a wizard without his spellbook is limited to preparing read magic.

Of course there are ways around that, like spell mastery, but the same can be said for the sorcerer limited knowledge.

For me, the thing that makes a wizard really superior to a sorcerer is the fact that he gains his most powerful spells one level earlier.

[lord_khaine]

Simple situation: your party had some encounters, and you exausted most of your spells, you have another fight, lose, and are imprisoned.

After 8 hours of rest and 15 minutes of preparation, a sorcerer could escape easily, and a wizard without his spellbook is limited to preparing read magic.



I would like to know, what sort of idiot is smart enough to take prisoner, dumb enough to take spellcasting prisoners alive, smart enough to take the wizards spellbook away from him, but to stupid to not bind and gag the live and awake spellcaster they captured?

[sonofzeal]

Also, exactly how often does that happen in most games?

[Vowtz]

I would like to know, what sort of idiot is smart enough to take prisonerAlmost anyone. For reasons like ransom, slavery, information...

dumb enough to take spellcasting prisoners aliveAnyone. If the point was to kill, then he just kill. "I will kill this prisoner because he is a spellcaster" sounds like metagaming.

smart enough to take the wizards spellbook away from himAgain, anyone. If you are imprisoned you obviously lose access to ALL your possessions.

but to stupid to not bind and gag the live and awake spellcaster they captured?Silent spell let you dimmension door out of a prison even gagged and bound.


Also, exactly how often does that happen in most games? A lot, heroes not always win.

In "Lord of the Rings" Gandalf was a prisoner, Frodo was a prisoner, Merry and Pippin were prisoners; In "The Hobbit" All dwarfs were prisoners at least twice; In "Pirates of the Caribbean" Jack Sparrow was imprisoned many times, Will Turner was made prisoner, all the crew were prisoners of a cannibal tribe; In OOTS Roy and Belkar were released from prison just some weeks ago.

In D&D I was a prisoner so many times I lost count, and when I'm DM, when PCs lose battles, they are imprisoned, not just slain, depending on the enemy.

[jiriku]

My experience in higher-level play is that there is no comparing the power of sorcerer to a wizard. With a firm mastery of the rules, it is very easy to make a sorcerer who is absolutely uber at one or two things. And it is very easy to make a wizard who is absolutely uber at most anything he puts his mind to. Therein lies the difference.

Others have suggested that sorcerers are better for new players than wizards. I've generally not found that to be true. Newbies don't understand the rules well enough to know which spells known to pick for their sorcerer, leaving them with a grab bag of "whatever looked cool". It's easier to build, but the end result is not more effective.

That said, I'll agree with many others that the real limit on the effectiveness of either class is player skill and ability to micromanage. Playing a wizard requires more time and rules mastery than playing a sorcerer, so if you're part of that slice of the gaming population that has sufficient time, inclination and ability to manage a sorcerer, but not enough for a wizard, then sorcerer is the way to go.

[dextercorvia]

A sorcerer built by an experienced player is easier for a newbie to play than a Wizard built by the same experienced player. That is fairly niche, however.

[Reaver225]

After 8 hours of rest and 15 minutes of preparation, a sorcerer could escape easily, and a wizard without his spellbook is limited to preparing read magic.And the sorcerer wasted a feat on Eschew Materials...?

[dextercorvia]

And the sorcerer wasted a feat on Eschew Materials...?

Normally, I'm very pro-wizard, but I'm even more pro-pedant.


Teleport
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 5, Travel 5
Components: V


Just as an example, of course. There are a surprising number of spells without material components, or with components that are readily available, even in captivity.

[Snowbluff]

And the sorcerer wasted a feat on Eschew Materials...?

Depends on how much of a bastard your DM. Some DM I know combat a party's caster by stealing their components with rogues.

[Eldariel]

Anyone. If the point was to kill, then he just kill. "I will kill this prisoner because he is a spellcaster" sounds like metagaming.

No, it sounds like common sense in a world where many spellcasters can, without any warning, just appear anywhere within miles from their current location. You can't capture one without Anti-Magic Shackles, or at least cutting vocal cords and both hands.

And most would-be capturers can't afford Anti-Magic Shackles so they'd most likely be smart enough to kill or maim any spellcasters that happen to be in a position to be captured before they leave the next day (unless the capturers can ensure there's no possibility of him and all the other captives disappearing the next morning, such as ensuring the spellcaster is arcane, out of spell slots and isn't allowed sufficient rest to refresh their mind).

[Emperor Tippy]

Almost anyone. For reasons like ransom, slavery, information...
Anyone holding a spell caster will drain/damage all their mental stats down below 10, spells don't matter then.

Anyone. If the point was to kill, then he just kill. "I will kill this prisoner because he is a spellcaster" sounds like metagaming.
No, it's an intelligent incharacter action. You can't hold a prepared caster short of extraordinarily involved preparations (which will still usually fail). You are better off killing them (ideally using one of the methods that keeps them from coming back).

Again, anyone. If you are imprisoned you obviously lose access to ALL your possessions.
Even the ones that you can't find? Like the ones stored inside your bones, in your stomach, in the extra-dimensional space in your tooth.

Silent spell let you dimmension door out of a prison even gagged and bound.
Not really, DD has a limited range and any prison holding a caster should have one of the anti teleportation magics up.

[Flickerdart]

It's possible to tattoo spells on yourself - it costs twice as much, but you can write down "Teleport" on your party Barbarian's armpit, or engrave it on your finger bone (and then heal over it with magic). It takes effort for even someone versed in Spellcraft to recognize a tattoo as a spell, and many characters with one tattoo could easily have a bunch more that are perfectly mundane.

[Emperor Tippy]

It's possible to tattoo spells on yourself - it costs twice as much, but you can write down "Teleport" on your party Barbarian's armpit, or engrave it on your finger bone (and then heal over it with magic). It takes effort for even someone versed in Spellcraft to recognize a tattoo as a spell, and many characters with one tattoo could easily have a bunch more that are perfectly mundane.

I prefer the inside of the ass cheek. So very rarely checked. :smallbiggrin:

And your wizard should always have a Simulacrum of himself left back at your base that he has a permanent Telepathic Bond with and that has a Craft Contingent Wish on it. Tell the Simulacrum to activate the Wish if you are every out of contact for a day or two, have the Wish set to pull you and your party from wherever you are to your base. That will get you even out of Dead Magic prisons.

Just remember to take additional steps if you are going to be purposefully visiting other planes as telepathic bond can't cross planar boundaries.

[Vowtz]

No, it sounds like common sense in a world where many spellcasters can, without any warning, just appear anywhere within miles from their current location.Some spellcasters, not many. If you look at DMG's tables you will see that, even in a metropolis, there is few people who can do that.


You can't capture one without Anti-Magic Shackles, or at least cutting vocal cords and both hands.

And how a creature without ranks in spellcraft, or knowledge(arcane) or (religion) know that?


And most would-be capturers can't afford Anti-Magic Shackles so they'd most likely be smart enough to kill or maim any spellcasters that happen to be in a position to be captured before they leave the next day (unless the capturers can ensure there's no possibility of him and all the other captives disappearing the next morning, such as ensuring the spellcaster is arcane, out of spell slots and isn't allowed sufficient rest to refresh their mind).
That's what I call metagaming, mechanics like anti-magic Shackles or knowing that anyone could simply disapear next morning, draining relevant stats, anti-teleportation, are not a common knowledge to most creatures in the world.

A hill giant can live all his life in the happy giant's community without seeing a teleport spell, even if he have some magic potions or wondrous items, or know that some wizards can do a lot of strange things.


It's possible to tattoo spells on yourself Yes, that would work like spell mastery, with some ugly differences.

[Emperor Tippy]

Some spellcasters, not many. If you look at DMG's tables you will see that, even in a metropolis, there is few people who can do that.
Few nations can use nuclear weapons, every nation knows that they exist.

Spellcasters are the same. However rare it is to have a caster who can teleport, it's common enough that it would be known that spellcasters can teleport. Whether the one you have captured can or can't is unknown, but that he at least potentially has that capability isn't a rare fact.


And how a creature without ranks in spellcraft, or knowledge(arcane) or (religion) know that?
"Hmm, the guard needs special prison cells to hold casters."


That's what I call metagaming, mechanics like anti-magic Shackles or knowing that anyone could simply disapear next morning, draining relevant stats, anti-teleportation, are not a common knowledge to most creatures in the world.
And most creatures can't capture a caster in the first place, especially a high level one. To do that requires a fair chunk of magic on your side already.


A hill giant can live all his life in the happy giant's community without seeing a teleport spell, even if he have some magic potions or wondrous items, or know that some wizards can do a lot of strange things.
And that hill giant is never going to capture a wizard that is actually high enough level to teleport.

[Flickerdart]

And how a creature without ranks in spellcraft, or knowledge(arcane) or (religion) know that?
Because the last time they tried to capture a spellcaster, he teleported away shortly after filling the place with horrible murderbeasts? And the time before that? And the time before that?

Yes, that would work like spell mastery, with some ugly differences.
Except you don't need to blow a feat, and can "master" many more spells while looking super badass.

[Vowtz]

And most creatures can't capture a caster in the first place, especially a high level one. To do that requires a fair chunk of magic on your side already.

And that hill giant is never going to capture a wizard that is actually high enough level to teleport.
which leeds back to my previous post:

True, If you play on very easy mode.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

which leeds back to my previous post:

Then please, enlighten me... how can a hill giant capture a Wizard of 11th level?

This, I gotta hear...

EDIT: Also, easy mode? That would be capturing a wizard and *NOT* taking advantage of the tactics which Tippy mentioned. It's not metagaming, it's the only way to provide one a challenge.

[Vowtz]

Then please, enlighten me... how can a hill giant capture a Wizard of 11th level?

This, I gotta hear...Someone stated something like that in another thread and I think everyone can agree:

"Underestimating the DM is not a smart move".

[Eldariel]

And how a creature without ranks in spellcraft, or knowledge(arcane) or (religion) know that?

The creature's superiors would. Anyone who's done research would. Anyone who's captured a spellcaster in the past would. Anyone in a position to imprison creatures living in a world where magical creatures and magic is as common as by the DMG would (seriously, it's not just spellcasters; Outsiders, Aberrations, Undead, any creature with magic could).

And anyone who doesn't understand magic fears it; if they somehow manage to get a spellcaster at their mercy, they'll just kill it out of fear specifically 'cause they do not know how many ways they have to escape their bondage. This would be especially true for tribal creatures of various kinds.

[Emperor Tippy]

which leeds back to my previous post:

No, I play on very hard mode.

Look at all the various builds and advice I offer in threads on these forums, 98% of it is variation's of stuff that I've either faced as a player or thrown against the party as a DM.

IC you are an adventurer. That's a profession where upwards of 90% are dead before they reach level 5. If you have survived then you are either a paranoid bastard or one the luckiest individuals to have ever lived.

You survive by thinking of how you could die, and then figuring out contingencies and plans to prevent that death. The higher the level, the more preparation is inherent in your profession.

[Vowtz]

Before hate falls upon me, I am not saying that a hill giant will capture any wizard easily, my point is that for any adventurer, being captured is a very real possibility, and a sorcerer can be able to handle it better than a wizard.

You see it all the time on movies, books and comics. The captor don't go cutting off the arms of every prisoner.

[Emperor Tippy]

Before hate falls upon me, I am not saying that a hill giant will capture any wizard easily, my point is that for any adventurer, being captured is a very real possibility, and a sorcerer can be able to handle it better than a wizard.
In reference to the bolded part, exactly. And even a wizard capable of casting first level spells is smart enough to recognize that fact. 18 Int makes you smarter than Einstein.

The wizard will know that being captured is a risk, he will thus think of ways to 1) minimize his chance of being captured and 2) escape capture if he is still caught.

Preplanned contingencies are incredibly incharacter for a wizard.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Someone stated something like that in another thread and I think everyone can agree:

"Underestimating the DM is not a smart move".

Which is not an answer to my question.

Before hate falls upon me, I am not saying that a hill giant will capture any wizard easily, my point is that for any adventurer, being captured is a very real possibility, and a sorcerer can be able to handle it better than a wizard. This, however, is an attempt to dodge the real answer: it can't.

You are right, a Hill Giant would not know to take these precautions. A Hill Giant would never be able to capture said wizard in the first place, so the fact that he wouldn't know to take precautions in an event which will never occur is not a problem. Then again, a Hill Giant would never bother capturing a wizard. If he can subdue one... said wizard becomes stew. Because a Hill Giant has no reason to capture a wizard. It is of no value to him other than as a quick meal.

The beings most likely to be able to capture a wizard alive are ones which will also take reasonable precautions.


You see it all the time on movies, books and comics. The captor don't go cutting off the arms of every prisoner.
Some of us don't like using Railroad Plot. Some of us also like things called 'concequences for your actions'. If you don't play like that, well that's your decision, and you are welcome to. But for myself, and the others who are positing questions... we prefer to not play on easy mode.

[Flickerdart]

Before hate falls upon me, I am not saying that a hill giant will capture any wizard easily, my point is that for any adventurer, being captured is a very real possibility, and a sorcerer can be able to handle it better than a wizard.

You see it all the time on movies, books and comics. The captor don't go cutting off the arms of every prisoner.
We've already demonstrated that with minimal amounts of preparation, this is patently untrue.

[hamishspence]

In reference to the bolded part, exactly. And even a wizard capable of casting first level spells is smart enough to recognize that fact. 18 Int makes you smarter than Einstein.

According to one article, which has been criticised quite a bit on this forum.

Extremely smart NPCs could have the "prodigy" template from DMG2, which upgrades their intelligence by 2, and gives them a bonus to Int-related checks on top of that.

So you could have a "prodigy of intelligence" who is INT 20, and 1st level- seems like a good way to represent the kind of people who get degrees several years early.

[Flickerdart]

Animal intelligence is 2. Average human intelligence is 10. You are as far above an ordinary person as they are above an animal in terms of your intelligence.

[hamishspence]

Animal Int is 2. Minimum PC Int is 3. But an Int 3 PC can read, write and speak one language (unless their class is specified as illiterate).

It's not a linear scale- there's a huge jump between Int 2 and Int 3.

[Vowtz]

Which is not an answer to my question.
This, however, is an attempt to dodge the real answer: it can't.


Then please, enlighten me... how can a hill giant capture a Wizard of 11th level?

This, I gotta hear...
Looks like you want to argue using some kind of Schrodinger's logic, which never get anywhere.

If you post a real character (level 10, teleport is a 5th level spell) then I'm sure Emperor Tippy can find a way to capture him using the mentioned hill giant given the stated situation:


Simple situation: your party had some encounters, and you exausted most of your spells, you have another fight, lose, and are imprisoned.

[Flickerdart]

Animal Int is 2. Minimum PC Int is 3. But an Int 3 PC can read, write and speak one language (unless their class is specified as illiterate).

It's not a linear scale- there's a huge jump between Int 2 and Int 3.
Some animals are incredibly intelligent. The jump from Int 2 to Int 3 is not as big as you'd think - chimps and gorillas can learn sign language, but are Int 2. It's not that much of a jump from one language to another - it's the abstract thought that's important. So Int 3 would be like an ape that could speak instead of sign, still incredibly simple and straightforward.

[hamishspence]

Int 2 covers a lot though, not all of which are chimp/dolphin level.

The ability to read and write at Int 3 is a fairly big jump as well.

Int 18 is certainly impressive (it's as high as a non-prodigy human can get without levelling) but that doesn't mean they're guaranteed to think of everything.

[Flickerdart]

Not everything, sure. But we thought of the possibility of a wizard being captured, and we're not Int 18 and don't think about adventuring every day.

[hamishspence]

I was thinking more of the "All wizards would have thought of everything, thus making them impossible to capture alive and transport safely" argument.

[Flickerdart]

I'm not sure anyone was making that argument. Wizards are only impossible to safely capture and transport if you use only those means of restraint that would not stop a Sorcerer.

[nedz]

Then please, enlighten me... how can a hill giant capture a Wizard of 11th level?

This, I gotta hear...


Easy:
Party gets into a big fight, Wizard gets knocked unconcious and left behind.
(some time later, after being attracted by the bright lights, ...)
Hill giants stumble across potential house cave slave.
They find his spell book and toss it away as worthless before lugging him back to their steading.

Ed:sp

[hamishspence]

I'm not sure anyone was making that argument. Wizards are only impossible to safely capture and transport if you use only those means of restraint that would not stop a Sorcerer.
How about:

You can't hold a prepared caster short of extraordinarily involved preparations (which will still usually fail). You are better off killing them (ideally using one of the methods that keeps them from coming back).

[Flickerdart]

Easy:
Party gets into a big fight, Wizard gets knocked unconcious and left behind.
lolnope


How about:
Eh, he had a bunch of caveats.

[Emperor Tippy]

What about it?

It's RAW fact that wizards are smart. There is no such thing as a stupid wizard.

As a consequence of being smart and embracing a dangerous profession the character will take steps to deal with foreseeable problems and circumstances.

Having a wizard with 30 Int who has adventured from levels 1 to 20 and doesn't have contingencies in place to escape capture is a poorly roleplayed wizard.

And considering all the various methods that can be used to prevent or escape capture, what I said is pretty much accurate in high level play.

You can drain a wizard down to 0 Int, chop off his arms and legs, remove his tongue, encase the rest of his body in adamantium, and drop him in a Dead Magic plane guarded by a hundred thousand level 20 Warblades and it still wouldn't hold a wizard who has taken even basic precautions.

His simulacrum or ice assassin will loose contact with him and then activate the Craft Contingent Wish to bring the wizard back to his base, at which point he will be dropped in the Healing Bed (coffin with a Craft Contingent Regenerate, Craft Contingent Heal, Craft Contingent Greater Restoration) and exit all better.

Please tell me how you would hold such a wizard if you capture him? Even leaving aside the difficulty of capturing him in the first place, holding him doesn't work unless you have a deity willing to prevent him from being Wished away.

[Vowtz]

Easy:
Party gets into a big fight, Wizard gets knocked unconcious and left behind.
(some time later, after being attracted by the bright lights, ...)
Hill giants stumble across potential house cave slave.
They find his spell book and toss it away as worthless before lugging him back to their steading.

Ed:spI think ShneekeyTheLost's point is that his wizard is invincible and will never get knocked unconcious. I'm looking forward to see his 10th level character sheet.