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NineThePuma
2011-11-14, 04:21 PM
Just to be clear, I'm balancing around the Pathfinder races.

First are the Gnolls, who went from "bruisers" to "hunters" and I generally wanted them to feel like they were less "GRAR, RAPE AND PILLAGE" who only want food and to be more "primal hunters" with Scent. Now the question is, "Is this race usable?"
• Dexterity +2, Constitution +2, Intelligence -2.
• Size Medium.
• A gnoll’s base land speed is 40 feet.
• Scent.
• +1 natural armor bonus.
• Automatic Languages: Gnoll, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Giant, Orc.
• Favored Class: Ranger.

Yitzi
2011-11-14, 09:48 PM
It's clearly +1 LA, but certainly seems a playable race.

NeoSeraphi
2011-11-14, 09:54 PM
It's clearly +1 LA, but certainly seems a playable race.

I dunno, Pathfinder races are pretty strong.

The bonuses to its stats are standard, so what is superior about it?

It gets +1 NA, +10' speed, and the scent ability. That all is pretty strong, but I wouldn't say it's LA +1.

NineThePuma
2011-11-14, 10:57 PM
Part of me wants to give them, say, Net or Bolos proficiency. But that might be a bit much..

Seerow
2011-11-14, 11:10 PM
Part of me wants to give them, say, Net or Bolos proficiency. But that might be a bit much..

It's not like they're particularly strong proficiencies. I don't see any reason for it, but I also see no reason not to.

Yitzi
2011-11-14, 11:26 PM
I dunno, Pathfinder races are pretty strong.

The bonuses to its stats are standard, so what is superior about it?

It gets +1 NA, +10' speed, and the scent ability. That all is pretty strong, but I wouldn't say it's LA +1.

Oh, I missed that it's Pathfinder. So yeah, then it's a +0 LA race.

Tanuki Tales
2011-11-15, 12:08 AM
Just chiming in;

I know the playtest rules are borked and are being re-written, but since they're the only semi-official standard until April, I just felt that I'd like to say that the updated Gnoll is still weak by Pathfinder's current race building rule sets.

Scent is 4 points, +1 Natural Armor is 2 points and Speed increase by 10 feet is 1 point.

Base races are supposed to be 10 points (borked, as said, but also as said, only semi-official rules currently).

I can't remember if the Xenophobic Language array (which is what I believe these Gnolls have) was 0 or -1 points, but we'll go with 0 for now.

So the grand total is 7 points, 3 points shy of the current semi-official standard for base race power in PF.

NineThePuma
2011-11-15, 12:12 AM
Link to standards?

NeoSeraphi
2011-11-15, 12:13 AM
Just chiming in;

I know the playtest rules are borked and are being re-written, but since they're the only semi-official standard until April, I just felt that I'd like to say that the updated Gnoll is still weak by Pathfinder's current race building rule sets.

Scent is 4 points, +1 Natural Armor is 2 points and Speed increase by 10 feet is 1 point.

Base races are supposed to be 10 points (borked, as said, but also as said, only semi-official rules currently).

I can't remember if the Xenophobic Language array (which is what I believe these Gnolls have) was 0 or -1 points, but we'll go with 0 for now.

So the grand total is 7 points, 3 points shy of the current semi-official standard for base race power in PF.

Clearly they need scaling spell resistance then. :smalltongue:

Tanuki Tales
2011-11-15, 01:17 AM
Link to standards?

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcp6&source=rss

Seerow
2011-11-15, 01:29 AM
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcp6&source=rss

Yes, the system that tells us +2 to a skill is worth as much as scaling spell resistance, and worth far more than +move speed.


Please, that system is a piece of crap and eyeballing wins out over even bothering to look at it.

Togath
2011-11-15, 02:01 AM
Still the race here is a little dull, perhaps granting it a weak(but flavorful)
feat such as endurance or run as a bonus feat?
It would boost the race closer to other pf races, and make it a more interesting choice for a race to play as.

AugustNights
2011-11-15, 09:20 AM
Please, that system is a piece of crap and eyeballing wins out over even bothering to look at it.

A curiosity, do you prefer or recommend a better system, or perhaps have one of your own?

OP: It's pretty boring, isn't it? Why not add some flavorful, uniquish abilities? As it stands, I wouldn't really want to play this race. The 40 move speed is nice, but not that nice. Scent is alright, but easy to get through other sources, and +1 Natural Armor class isn't really all that impressive. No Darkvision? No racial bonus to Hide (if only in a certain terrain type)? No EX ability based on the sheer horror that a Hyena is? Maybe a bonus on CMB on trip attacks? Maybe an ability to eat anything organic? I dunno. Right now it feels like more of a set of ability bonuses and a penalty without much to sink one's teeth into, which is my take on many races.
What makes a Gnoll unique?
Why should I play one?
Why not play an X instead?

Tanuki Tales
2011-11-15, 10:28 AM
Yes, the system that tells us +2 to a skill is worth as much as scaling spell resistance, and worth far more than +move speed.


Please, that system is a piece of crap and eyeballing wins out over even bothering to look at it.

Scaling SR (6+HD) is worth more like Skill Focus since they already had racial feats for granting SR before the ARG playtest was launched, so it's not as crap as you say in at least that case.

And honestly, movement speed is still something not worth much anything since movement has no real impact on combat and is usually handwaved or roleplayed away out of combat.

So...while the current race building rules are somewhat borked, your particular issue with it holds not much substance.

RedWarlock
2011-11-15, 02:57 PM
Plus, y'know, PF's skill focus scales. Not greatly, but it does improve, with precedent for more. (Does PF do epic in their core? 'Cuz I could see that bonus bumping at, say, 25/30 ranks..)

And it's an estimation, anyway. It's the edition-old question, what's better, power now, or power later? Which one IS better, well, it depends. In rough terms, they feel they're similar. (Plus, it's a beta. Values and judgements could change.)

NineThePuma
2011-11-16, 09:07 AM
How about the following racial trait?

Necrotic Resistance: When a Gnoll would receive a negative level, they may make a fortitude save to avoid taking the negative level. This save is at the same DC as it would be 24 hours later. In addition, Gnolls take half damage from negative energy.

And here's the next race.
Warforged scouts possess the following racial traits.
• +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, –2 Strength, –2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma.
• Type: Construct (Living Construct)
• Small size. +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, –4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 3/4 those of Medium characters.
• A warforged scout’s base land speed is 30 feet.
• Stealth*Plating (Ex): The stealth plating used to build warforged scouts provides a +1 armor bonus. This plating is not natural armor and does not stack with other effects that give an armor bonus (other than natural armor). This composite plating occupies the same space on the body as a suit of armor or a robe, and thus a warforged scout cannot wear armor or magic robes. A warforged scout can be enchanted just as armor can be. The creature must be present for the entire time it takes to enchant him.
Stealth plating also provides a warforged scout with a 5% arcane spell failure chance, similar to the penalty for wearing light armor. Any class ability that allows a warforged scout to ignore the arcane spell failure chance for light armor lets him ignore this penalty as well.
Stealth Plating provides a +2 circumstance bonus to both Hide and Move Silently checks, as though it was a Masterwork Tool.
• Light Fortification (Ex): When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on a warforged scout, there is a 25% chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.
• +2 racial bonus to Spot and Listen checks.
• Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: None.
• Favored Class: Does anyone use these rules anymore?

Hyudra
2011-11-16, 09:51 AM
They're scavengers, what about...

Carrion Eater: Gnolls are capable of subsisting on a diet that would leave others ill or dying. They get a +4 to saving throws to avoid contracting diseases from foods they eat, and a +2 to saving throws against ingested poisons.

NineThePuma
2011-11-16, 10:17 AM
Way too circumstantial. I've yet to have a DM cover ingested diseases. I mean... Are there any ingested diseases right now?

Hyudra
2011-11-16, 10:46 AM
Way too circumstantial. I've yet to have a DM cover ingested diseases. I mean... Are there any ingested diseases right now?

Blue guts, and depending on how your DM handles it, eating the flesh of other humanoids can cause ghoul fever.

NeoSeraphi
2011-11-16, 11:00 AM
Favored Classes in Pathfinder are relevant, Nine. You get extra hit points or skill points when you take levels in them. (I don't think Pathfinder has multiclassing XP penalties)

NineThePuma
2011-11-16, 11:41 AM
Favored class would be Magitech Templar, then.

Cieyrin
2011-11-16, 11:51 AM
Favored Classes in Pathfinder are relevant, Nine. You get extra hit points or skill points when you take levels in them. (I don't think Pathfinder has multiclassing XP penalties)

Indeed, not to mention alternate favored class bonuses that can really make a difference, like Half-Elf Summoners getting bonus evolution points or Human Sorcerers getting bonus spells known. It's a nicer system, where you get a benefit for straight classing, as opposed to a penalty for uneven multiclassing.

Tanuki Tales
2011-11-16, 11:53 AM
Favored class would be Magitech Templar, then.

That's not how Favored Class works in Pathfinder.

NineThePuma
2011-11-16, 12:16 PM
That's not how Favored Class works in Pathfinder.

MagiTech Templar is a class. The Warforged in my 'verse favor it.

How does that not work?

Tanuki Tales
2011-11-16, 01:12 PM
MagiTech Templar is a class. The Warforged in my 'verse favor it.

How does that not work?

Races don't have "Favored Classes" anymore.

You pick a base class and whenever you take a level in it you get 1 HP or 1 skill point (depending on what you selected) or the special racial benefit you get for selecting a specific class as your Favored class.

NineThePuma
2011-11-16, 01:24 PM
... Okay, as of this moment, that is not how favored classes work in my Pathfinder Campaign Setting book. Therefore, I'm ignoring it.

I don't care what the "Advanced Races Guide" might do. It's not out yet.

Tanuki Tales
2011-11-16, 01:56 PM
... Okay, as of this moment, that is not how favored classes work in my Pathfinder Campaign Setting book. Therefore, I'm ignoring it.

I don't care what the "Advanced Races Guide" might do. It's not out yet.

Um, that's from core, not the ARG.


Each character begins play with a single favored class of his choosing—typically, this is the same class as the one he chooses at 1st level. Whenever a character gains a level in his favored class, he receives either + 1 hit point or + 1 skill rank. The choice of favored class cannot be changed once the character is created, and the choice of gaining a hit point or a skill rank each time a character gains a level (including his first level) cannot be changed once made for a particular level. Prestige classes (see Prestige Classes) can never be a favored class.

From the Pathfinder SRD.

NineThePuma
2011-11-16, 02:02 PM
That's from the APG, sorry. They changed how it worked later on.

Either way, it doesn't matter.

Cieyrin
2011-11-16, 02:07 PM
That's from the APG, sorry. They changed how it worked later on.

Either way, it doesn't matter.

It was expanded in the APG but it's been that way since Core released. Races having specific classes they can only use as their favored classes was last seen in PF Beta. But yes, as you say, it doesn't really matter.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-16, 02:16 PM
That's from the APG, sorry. They changed how it worked later on.

Open up your core book and look at the races chapter. Now. :smallmad:

NineThePuma
2011-11-16, 02:35 PM
See sig for response.

Also; how pathfinder does it doesn't really matter. I raided pathfinder for the races and how their skill system worked. Nothing else, really.

Tanuki Tales
2011-11-16, 02:40 PM
See sig for response.

Also; how pathfinder does it doesn't really matter. I raided pathfinder for the races and how their skill system worked. Nothing else, really.

Then don't title your thread 3.P?

Not our fault if we're assuming you're using Pathfinder with backwards compatibility instead of your own homebrew system based off of 3.5 and Pathfinder.

NineThePuma
2011-11-16, 02:52 PM
Did I say it was your fault? You've quite effectively derailed my thought processes from home brew. It doesn't bloody matter how favored classes work ANYWHERE. I didn't include a favored class in my Scouts; someone said it needed one. I mentioned one. You jump down my throat over it. I'm rather aggravated at this point, so try to understand when I say I don't CARE what pathfinder does. My 'brew is intended to be used alongside the pathfinder races, as I said in the OP. That does NOT say that I am using it in any specific way, and coming into my thread and nitpicking a minor detail that doesn't matter is extremely irritating.

AugustNights
2011-11-16, 03:07 PM
2 copper on the Gnoll ability: A bonus on saves against ingested diseases and poisons is quite a bit less circumstantial than a resistance to negative levels. Why not offer an Active ability?

The Warforged Scout is alright, Living Construct is always a nice little thing, but their Stealth Plating is really more of a Hinderance than a boon. That may be intended. Do they qualify for Warforged armor feats? Do you use them?

I'm actually currently rewriting races for my games, and I just realized that I want every race to have an active ability. Thanks.

NineThePuma
2011-11-16, 03:23 PM
2 copper on the Gnoll ability: A bonus on saves against ingested diseases and poisons is quite a bit less circumstantial than a resistance to negative levels. Why not offer an Active ability?

The Warforged Scout is alright, Living Construct is always a nice little thing, but their Stealth Plating is really more of a Hinderance than a boon. That may be intended. Do they qualify for Warforged armor feats? Do you use them?

I'm actually currently rewriting races for my games, and I just realized that I want every race to have an active ability. Thanks.

I've been playing D&D for a while, and maybe it's just my DMs, but I've never encountered ingested poisons. There's this really low level spell called Detect Poison, and once your DM shows that he likes poisons, you tend to make your own food or cast it at the start of the meal.

Meanwhile, Undead have this love of Negative levels, and Undead make up a LOT of monsters. I might pick up an anti-disease ability (good for helping you not turn into a ghoul or gift off the effects of a zombie virus), but against only ingested stuff? That's really circumstantial. And strictly worse than what the Dwarves have (which was +4 against poisons, IIRC)

I use the armor feats, and that's a good point about them. I'll make a note that anything that replaces your composite plating replaces your Stealth Plating instead.

Tanuki Tales
2011-11-16, 04:04 PM
@Nine:

No, what Seraphi said was that Favored Classes are still relevant.

Which, in Pathfinder's rule system means what has been pointed out as it meaning.

And what your OP stated was you were balancing your races around the other Pathfinder base races.

Again, how is the casual observer supposed to understand that you aren't creating homebrew for use in a game that follows the Pathfinder rule set while importing 3.5 material (which is generally what the 3.P tag means) and that you are making material for your own homebrew rule set when you don't inform anyone until this late in thread?

You then went on to say that the actual rulings for Favored Classes were not what they actual were in the Core rulebook and then erroneously said what I said was coming from the ARG. When this was pointed out, you then went on to again make an incorrect claim concerning the core rules and tried to just shrug the fact you were incorrect off as being "unimportant" (which isn't a problem in (the rules themselves being unimportant) of itself since we now know you're using your own homebrew rulings which are completely in your right to change).

Then when I pointed out that you should have used the proper thread title tag if you hadn't wanted any confusion from those who were unaware (I can see at least three in this thread) that you were using your own homebrew rule system you make the reply you did, which was honestly very uncalled for.

Edit: Regardless of anything else, I'm done here. Good day.

Cieyrin
2011-11-16, 07:48 PM
Stuff

I think we've acknowledged and beat the equine cadaver to jelly at this point. Let's move on and back to new PF races that meld well with Core, eh?

As for the gnoll, I think it needs some weapon proficiencies, like the other nonhumans tend to have. Specifically, Gnolls seem to me to favor spears and flails and making flind bars martial for 'em would be neat. Maybe a racial bite attack would be good as well.

NineThePuma
2011-11-22, 01:13 AM
Elves

+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Constitution.
Medium: As Medium creatures, elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Elf base land speed is 30 feet.
Sleepless: Elves do not sleep, instead meditating. An elf needs only four hours of meditation to receive the benefits of eight hours rest. They also possess immunity to magic sleep effects.
Fey Step (Sp): Elves possess an innate affinity for magic, and over millennia this affinity has manifested itself as the ability to teleport. As a move action an elf can teleport up to 20 ft. They must have line of sight to the location. They cannot teleport to an occupied square.
Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan.

NeoSeraphi
2011-11-22, 01:25 AM
Fey Step is really powerful. It grants you no worries from Grapple or Swallow Whole, as well as (if teleportation lets stand immediately) Tripping, or any other form of falling prone.

Since it's a supernatural ability, it doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.

I dunno. That kind of thing strikes me as a class feature (like Abundant Step) not as something you should be able to do from level one regardless of what class you are...and at will

Cieyrin
2011-11-22, 12:45 PM
Fey Step is really powerful. It grants you no worries from Grapple or Swallow Whole, as well as (if teleportation lets stand immediately) Tripping, or any other form of falling prone.

Since it's a supernatural ability, it doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.

I dunno. That kind of thing strikes me as a class feature (like Abundant Step) not as something you should be able to do from level one regardless of what class you are...and at will

Having a use limit per encounter would work wonderfully for toning this down a bit, methinks. Then it becomes a decision instead of just something you can do whenever you feel like.

NineThePuma
2011-11-22, 06:05 PM
My bad. Was intended as a Spell-like, but I accidentally tagged it as Su; I blame my keyboard.

That would render grapple/swallow whole a threat again, IIRC, and tripping isn't a threat anyway. After all, if the enemy can trip you, why are you WALKING toward him?

I actually really wanted to avoid a use limit, because a race with the innate ability to teleport whenever they want let me screw around with architecture big time.

Yitzi
2011-11-22, 07:24 PM
good for helping you not turn into a ghoul or gift off the effects of a zombie virus

There's a difference? :smallsmile:

NineThePuma
2011-11-22, 08:18 PM
Not particularly. I tend to use a different disease than Ghoul Fever for Zombie Virus though.