Is PETA a parody?

[Dumbledore lives]

I read a story recently and PETA has made a mario game criticizing him for wearing fur (here it is if interested (http://features.peta.org/mario-kills-tanooki/?utm_campaign=Mario%20Kills%20Tanooki&utm_source=PETA%20Pitch&utm_medium=Media)) and it just doesn't make sense, at first I thought it was a parody of these kind of groups going too extreme over the littlest things, but lo and behold it is on their website as the featured thing. The basic idea behind PETA is good but this is just ridiculous.

So what do you think of this and other publicity stunts?

[Mando Knight]

Gonna have to say that even though PETA may seem to be extremist to the point of being ridiculous, they're still very much a political organization and any discussion regarding them will be probably too political for this forum.

[Tebryn]

No PETA is legit and often times out of their minds I'm afraid. Like their Sea Kitten campaign (Fish). They're very interested in their agenda and sometimes that means they're less interested in sanity, like so many advocacy groups.

[Blisstake]

This can only end well...

[tyckspoon]

See also Poe's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law) for general information on this phenomenon.

[Dumbledore lives]

Maybe I should restate, I don't think PETA is actually a parody, I understand it is an organization, but it is just things like these that make me question some of the decisions that it makes, like focusing on minor things like a 25 year old game's powerup.

[Tebryn]

See also Poe's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law) for general information on this phenomenon.

I don't think it's quite that. The fact is most people know the intent of PETA if they know anything about the group. They are American based and Dumbledore is not so it's understandable he wouldn't have all the info.

[Starwulf]

I don't think it's quite that. The fact is most people know the intent of PETA if they know anything about the group. They are American based and Dumbledore is not so it's understandable he wouldn't have all the info.

I'm American, and I'm not sure I understand PETA's intent most of the time. They are out in left field like 95% of the time with harebrained campaigns that more make me want to shake my head and do the opposite of what they want because they are going about it so stupidly. This current campaign is probably even more ridiculous then their Sea Kitten campaign >< Mario in a Tanaka Suit. It's a suit that is based on a fictional video game creature, that doesn't even show up in the Mario universe besides it's suit. How do we even know it's a freaking animal? what if it's an evil creature that spits fire and harms innocent Mushroom Kingdom people?

Bah ><

[Keld Denar]

Wait....PETA doesn't stand for People Eating Tasty Animals?

My worldview, like my sanity, has just been shattered!

[Tebryn]

I'm American, and I'm not sure I understand PETA's intent most of the time. They are out in left field like 95% of the time with harebrained campaigns that more make me want to shake my head and do the opposite of what they want because they are going about it so stupidly. This current campaign is probably even more ridiculous then their Sea Kitten campaign >< Mario in a Tanaka Suit. It's a suit that is based on a fictional video game creature, that doesn't even show up in the Mario universe besides it's suit. How do we even know it's a freaking animal? what if it's an evil creature that spits fire and harms innocent Mushroom Kingdom people?

Bah ><

I can explain this line of reasoning.

Kids like video games. Violent video games cause kids to be violent. If we make a video game about how it's bad to hurt animals kids will think it's bad to hurt animals.

Yes, this way madness lies.

[Dienekes]

Huh, what a remarkably simple game with a rather unsatisfying conclusion.

Also makes me curious if they're going to target Davy Crockett next.

[Calmar]

Many boys used to play the old Super Mario Brothers 3. Today they use to wear fur.

[Orzel]

C'mon PETA. The villain is Duck Hunt and that stupid dog.

[THAC0]

Ah, this has given me motivation to finish up the beaver hat I am working on and get crackin' on the fox hat, since both are Christmas presents and need to be done soon!

[Wardog]

"Mario kills Tanooki"?

More like "Bad game mechanics kills Tanooki. Repeatedly".

Seriously, the number of times I died by getting caught between a wall and the left screen age was jus ridiculous.

Still, could be worse. They could have had the hands, the horrible, grasping hands from Eversion.

[TheCountAlucard]

"Mario kills Tanooki"?

More like "Bad game mechanics kills Tanooki. Repeatedly".

Seriously, the number of times I died by getting caught between a wall and the left screen age was just ridiculous.Indeed. :smallamused:

Frankly, their other dig at Mario (and, strangely, at KFC :smallconfused:) was better - it was a longer game, had little interludes between levels... and that sucked, too, of course, but not nearly as badly as this one.

@V: That's the thing - they don't want to save pets from unnecessary cruelty - they want people to stop having pets altogether. And blind people to stop having seeing-eye dogs. And so on.

And the means by which they go about it can hardly be considered ethical. Remember that video they released of a trapper catching a fox and skinning it alive? They paid him to do it. :smallmad:

[Karoht]

My fiance is a vet. I hear about animal cruelty all the time. It happens in some of the strangest of places. I could list all kinds of stuff for days. I'm not going to.

What I will do is ask, what is PETA doing, or what have they done, that has/will be effective, in minimizing the root causes of these abuses?


The biggest animal abuses come from the pet trade. Now I'm not saying we should stop having pets. But the sources of those pets are a big deal.

Birds. The bird trade isn't what it once was, but where do you think those exotic animals come from? Exotic places. Namely their natural habitat, or the wild. Parrots aren't actually classified as domesticated animals, for example. Many parrots, especially cockatoos, are wild caught, put in horrible conditions, and then shipped out of their countries illegally. In fact the movie Rio actually paints the picture rather well. The only reason this trade still operates this way? Because there is a market for it.

Dogs. We've all heard of puppy mills. We've all heard of backyard breeders. Why do you think they still operate? Because of the markets which still support them.

PETA could do well and repair it's image by trying to educate the public on even just the sourcing of their pets. If people bought from reputable breeders (not puppy mills and backyard breeders) instead of mills and illegal traders, that would be fine. If pet stores (I'm looking at you Petcetera, which is now closed) would stop buying from poor sources, that would be a massive difference.

Instead, PETA basically advocates under the premise that any contact with any animal is considered taboo. Which is where I have issue with them.

Anyone can point to something and say "You are doing that wrong" but not many can say "here is how to do this right, and look, it takes just a tiny bit more effort, hardly any at all" and encourage real change. I'll give PETA credit for pointing out the injustices (the real ones, not the fake ones like Mario), but they need to step it up if they want people to actually change or if they actually want to save these animals.

[Howler Dagger]

I heard a story once, from my 7th grade health teacher. He was explaining how google worked and how it could blow up on you when using it for a reaserch project. He said a kid once google searched "alzheimers(the disease he was doing a project on) and found peta page about how alzheimers is really misdiagnosed mad cow disease*, and *that you could get alzeihmers from eating cows, or an red meat, or any meat and that you just shouldnt eat meat.

Here is the article. (http://www.peta.org/b/thepetafiles/archive/tags/vegetarian/default.aspx)

*It isnt, to my knowledge
**this is how he told us

The thing is, they strecth the truth or sometimes make stuff up to further there causes.

Also, the titles of some of there areticles make no sense.

Can you guess what this article is about based on the title: Does Your Goldfish Need a Sweater? (http://www.peta.org/b/thepetafiles/archive/2011/11/15/does-your-goldfish-need-a-sweater.aspx)

[Lord Seth]

I heard a story once, from my 7th grade health teacher. He was explaining how google worked and how it could blow up on you when using it for a reaserch project. He said a kid once google searched "alzheimers(the disease he was doing a project on) and found peta page about how alzheimers is really misdiagnosed mad cow disease*, and *that you could get alzeihmers from eating cows, or an red meat, or any meat and that you just shouldnt eat meat.

Here is the article. (http://www.peta.org/b/thepetafiles/archive/tags/vegetarian/default.aspx)Okay, they did not say that Alzheimer's is misdiagnosed mad cow disease, they said that some cases of Alzheimer's may be misdiagnosed mad cow disease and that eating meat may increase your chance of Alzheimer's. Which are certainly weasel words, but they're still not saying what you claim they're saying.

Though there's definitely some exaggeration on that page, e.g. taking experts who say "don't eat too much of certain kinds of meat" and turning it into "don't eat meat."

[Icewalker]

Regarding their whole general stance as trying to stop people having pets instead of any idea of trying to help animals, they tend to euthanize homeless pets they take in. This website (http://www.petakillsanimals.com/) seems to address this in some detail.

[Tono]

You should look up the cooking momma parody they did, that was... something else.

[AtlanteanTroll]

You know the Mario game wasn't that bad. Especially since I was eating KFC while doing so. :smallbiggrin:

[Partof1]

I remember that one. That was borderline sadistic.

[H Birchgrove]

I wait for the day they throw blood on a rap star and gets taken down by his body guards. :smallamused:

[Traab]

I remember that one. That was borderline sadistic.

BORDERLINE?! It had a psychotic woman with a bloody knife grinning at us with the caption, "Your mommy murders rabbits!" or some such drek. Anyways, the mario game, its been decades, but dont you get the tanuki suit by grabbing a leaf powerup? I certainly dont recall chasing down a tanuki, jumping on its head, then skinning it to wear its fur. Im also unaware of tanuki fur granting the power of flight. Trust me, I tried, I must have killed 50 of the buggers and made a coat, I jumped off the roof 12 times and didnt even float slowly down. Then I tried the dead run flight ability and sprinted off a quarry cliff face. That sucked. It tore my coat

[Dienekes]

You should look up the cooking momma parody they did, that was... something else.

Just played it, having cleaned a bird before, that was hilarious. I rather liked how the visuals tried to make such a boring chore and delicious meal seem disgusting. Not actually bad, or monstrous but poorly cleaned.

And who saws off a turkey neck?

[Helanna]

@V: That's the thing - they don't want to save pets from unnecessary cruelty - they want people to stop having pets altogether. And blind people to stop having seeing-eye dogs. And so on.

That's always confused me. Besides the obvious, "my pets don't WANT to be set free, because they've all had multiple opportunities to escape and none have", what exactly do they think is going to happen if we just set all the animals free? Most of them will either not leave, or die. Or are we just supposed to not get any more pets? I'm pretty sure there are a few dog and cat types that, if people stopped breeding them, would just die out.

Seriously, I used to let my dog out without a leash all the time, she could've disappeared at any time. Instead, she ran into the street and got hit by a car. Now she always goes out on a leash, because obviously she can't be trusted in 'the wild' (aka thirty feet away from a road with hardly any traffic on it).



PETA could do well and repair it's image by trying to educate the public on even just the sourcing of their pets. If people bought from reputable breeders (not puppy mills and backyard breeders) instead of mills and illegal traders, that would be fine. If pet stores (I'm looking at you Petcetera, which is now closed) would stop buying from poor sources, that would be a massive difference.

I have heard that over 90% of pet stores get their dogs from puppy mills. Does anyone have a decent source on that? Because I really can't stand puppy mills at all, and that seems like an extraordinarily high percentage.

[Coidzor]

...Tanooki are mythological beasts... :smallconfused:

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

...Tanooki are mythological beasts... :smallconfused:

Not quite. The Tanuki, or Japanese raccoon dog.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/Tanuki01_960.jpg/800px-Tanuki01_960.jpg

[Tebryn]

It's Tanuki but yes. They're also based off real creatures.

[AtlanteanTroll]

...Tanooki are mythological beasts... :smallconfused:

Actually, no (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanuki).

Anyway ...

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/387956_2058853040451_1518408529_31561176_137896477 0_n.jpg

I couldn't resist.

[Telonius]

C'mon PETA. The villain is Duck Hunt and that stupid dog.

That dog is the anti-Yeller. Can't tell you how many times I wished they'd let you shoot at that little ^&(* when he laughed at you for missing.

[Savannah]

I have heard that over 90% of pet stores get their dogs from puppy mills. Does anyone have a decent source on that? Because I really can't stand puppy mills at all, and that seems like an extraordinarily high percentage.

I would be seriously surprised if 10% didn't come from puppy mills. If you'd asked me to guess, I'd have said 98+%. The best I can get for you from 30 seconds of googling is "Almost all pet store puppies come from puppy mills" (per the Humane Society of the United States (http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/puppy_mills/qa/puppy_mill_FAQs.html#I_think_my_local_pet_store_mi ght_be_sell)). Pet shops are in it for the $$ and any breeder worth his/her salt will be lucky to break even on the cost of the puppies because of the amount of medical screening for the parents and the time spent raising the puppies.

Do note, however, that some pet stores (PetSmart springs to mind) will have adoption events where dogs from local shelters are brought into the store. That's the only good time to get a dog from a pet store.

[Coidzor]

It's Tanuki but yes. They're also based off real creatures.

The legends about them using their genitals to smother people to death just got a whole lot creepier then. :smalleek:

[TheCountAlucard]

That's always confused me.Believe me, you're not the only one to have been confused by it.


what exactly do they think is going to happen if we just set all the animals free?You know what? I asked them that same question, only with regard to cows. They assumed I was trolling them, and gave me a rather rude brush-off. So now, yeah, I'm rather-opposed to their organization.


Most of them will either not leave, or die.Pretty sure they're fine with animals dying. Again, incinerators.


I'm pretty sure there are a few dog and cat types that, if people stopped breeding them, would just die out.See above.

[Tebryn]

The legends about them using their genitals to smother people to death just got a whole lot creepier then. :smalleek:

Ya....take a few glances at the pictures of the things. They're hysterical.

[Ravens_cry]

Wow, PETA. While I abhor cruelty to our fellow inhabitants of this planet, this is just silly.
One, you get the suit from a magic feather that in a puff of smoke transforms you into the suit.
No actual cruelty to any Japanese raccoon dog was implied or shown.
2nd, it is part of a series of games that have the jumping on and killing of turtles as a major part of their gameplay.
If you are getting all in a huff about a video game mechanic, why not this?
PETA, PETA, if you want people to take you seriously, if you want people to actually think you are a group that actually cares for the welfare of all creatures on this planet, you need to stop being so silly and choose your battle better.
Instead, in honour of the Tanuki, I say we hold a ball (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjkJfMrQ4bc). Two in fact. Big ones.

[Starwulf]

Speaking of adopting dogs from shelters, my wife heard an awesome story of such today on the radio(awesome, and totally terrifying). Some couple had decided to go adopt a dog from a local shelter. They ended up adopting a 130lb St. Bernard. They got home not 2 hours later, and the dog started freaking out, barking up a massive storm. They were wondering why, when their basement door flew open, and a burglar took off, trying to flee. The dog snagged him by his ankle, and wouldn't let go until the police got there. Turns out, he wasn't just there to rob them, he had CUT THE PHONE AND CABLE LINES. Yeah, murder, torture, rape, whatever, it was definitely in their future. So, a dog they rescued in turn saved their lives not even two hours later.

[TheCountAlucard]

Also, just looked at their Super Meat Boy "parody." :smallyuk:

Aside from being a stupid game, isn't it kinda missing the point? I mean, wasn't Meat Boy just a kid who doesn't have any skin, not a kid made of meat? :smallconfused:

[Ravens_cry]

Technically, we are all made of meat (http://www.eastoftheweb.com/short-stories/UBooks/TheyMade.shtml).

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Technically, we are all made of meat (http://www.eastoftheweb.com/short-stories/UBooks/TheyMade.shtml).

That short story is brilliant. Thank you.

[Ichneumon]

PETA's main problem is that their primary goal seems to be to get publicity and the easiest way to do so is to do things that are crazy. It's sad, but to them there seems all publicity is good publicity and actually convincing people or fundamentally changing things for the better for animals really does come second place to that. In many of their campaigns they don't take seem to take themselves seriously nor their cause. It's quite sad really, since often times their message is lost due to the way they bring it.

[TheCountAlucard]

Technically, we are all made of meat.Apparently Tofu Boy isn't. :smalltongue:

...and neither is Potato Boy, Super Meat Boy's developers' response to it. :smallamused:


...and actually convincing people or fundamentally changing things for the better for animals really does come second place to that.It doesn't even come in third. :smallsigh:

[Geno9999]

OH COME ON PETA!!! HOW CAN YOU LOSE THE BALL ON THIS ONE!?
They're missing the more important issue here! Turtle abuse! Do you know how many turtles get burned, stomped on, and get their shells stolen because of Super Mario Bros.!? I don't know either, but the data is out there!!!
:tongue:

[TheCountAlucard]

They're missing the more important issue here!No, no, they covered turtle abuse already - it got one brief mention in their first Mario parody - you know, the one about KFC. :smallsigh:

[AtlanteanTroll]

No, no, they covered turtle abuse already - it got one brief mention in their first Mario parody - you know, the one about KFC. :smallsigh:
Clearly he does not, and frankly, neither do I. Link?

[Ravens_cry]

Apparently Tofu Boy isn't. :smalltongue:

...and neither is Potato Boy, Super Meat Boy's developers' response to it. :smallamused:

I meant all non-fictional we's. :smalltongue:
Isn't that right Mr. Tickles?
***
Mr. Tickles says yes.

[Savannah]

Speaking of adopting dogs from shelters, my wife heard an awesome story of such today on the radio(awesome, and totally terrifying). Some couple had decided to go adopt a dog from a local shelter. They ended up adopting a 130lb St. Bernard. They got home not 2 hours later, and the dog started freaking out, barking up a massive storm. They were wondering why, when their basement door flew open, and a burglar took off, trying to flee. The dog snagged him by his ankle, and wouldn't let go until the police got there. Turns out, he wasn't just there to rob them, he had CUT THE PHONE AND CABLE LINES. Yeah, murder, torture, rape, whatever, it was definitely in their future. So, a dog they rescued in turn saved their lives not even two hours later.

That is really, really awesome. Heck, I feel safer with my 6-lb chihuahua I adopted a couple of months ago, as I know she'll start barking if there's something suspicious, and the last thing anyone intent on causing trouble wants is a barking dog. (She's not one of the chihuahuas that barks to alert you to the presence of oxygen in the atmosphere, fortunately!)

Back on topic, I think Ichneumon has it right, sadly.

[TheCountAlucard]

Clearly he does not, and frankly, neither do I. Link?First Game (http://www.kentuckyfriedcruelty.com/superchicksisters/)
Second Game (http://www.mccruelty.com/SuperChickSisters.aspx)

[AtlanteanTroll]

Did I mention I was reading this thread while eating KFC? Made me feel really good inside.

[Dienekes]

First Game (http://www.kentuckyfriedcruelty.com/superchicksisters/)
Second Game (http://www.mccruelty.com/SuperChickSisters.aspx)

Did you know retired Yoshi's are sent to slaughterhouse where they are hacked apart for human and Nintendog food? Maybe Yoshi's aren't for racing after all.

Comedy gold.

Also why do they reference Pamela Anderson so much? They actually have a character praise Barb Wire during the game.

[thubby]

peta makes me want to do something just out of spite. but everything i can think of involves hurting people, or cute fluffy creatures.
this is an... interesting conundrum.

also, tanuki are adorable

[Tebryn]

Because she's got great tracks of land.

[LaZodiac]

Apparently Tofu Boy isn't. :smalltongue:

...and neither is Potato Boy, Super Meat Boy's developers' response to it. :smallamused:

It doesn't even come in third. :smallsigh:

Could of sworn their rebuttal was actually made out of tofu.


Also why do they reference Pamela Anderson so much? They actually have a character praise Barb Wire during the game.

She's "an animal rights activist". If PETA had any semblance of inteligence, they'd realize Pam An was the person who populerized carrying dogs in bags.

Also, all I really have to say about this is that PETA is...unbelieveable.

[Tonal Architect]

Weren't PETA the guys behind some whacky campaign claiming humanity to abandon the consumption of cow milk, and instead completely substitute it for, er, breast milk?

That one resulted in some hilarious backlash, if I recall.

[Tebryn]

Weren't PETA the guys behind some whacky campaign claiming humanity to abandon the consumption of cow milk, and instead completely substitute it for, er, breast milk?

That one resulted in some hilarious backlash, if I recall.

They were.

[Ravens_cry]

That does not surprise me. It's actually among their more reasonable suggestions as a lot of humans are lactose intolerant past weaning. In fact, the mutants who aren't to at least some degree are the minority.
Of course, human breastmilk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance#Dairy_products) contains more lactose than cow breastmilk, so it is still bat**** insane.

[An Enemy Spy]

PETA's always up to something stupid. In my neck of the woods, they tried to outlaw the famous Pike Place Market fish throwers. For those of you who have no idea what the bloody hell I'm talking about. Pike Place market is a famous shopping center in Seattle where lot's of independent merchants sell their wares. The most famous store there is a seafood stall where the workers are famous for tossing the fish back and forth between eachother and to the customers.
PETA thinks that throwing an already fish around counts as cruelty to animals. Somehow. And they tried to put an end to it. They protested by laying on the street in fish costumes. Needless to say, nobody in Seattle gives two craps what those morons think.

[Ravens_cry]

Or two carps.:smallbiggrin:

[Dienekes]

Weren't PETA the guys behind some whacky campaign claiming humanity to abandon the consumption of cow milk, and instead completely substitute it for, er, breast milk?

That one resulted in some hilarious backlash, if I recall.

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNsrK6P9QvI) is the only way I know of how to describe my reaction to this news.

[Lord Seth]

It's funny that this topic was made today, because I was already reminded of the "Douche and Turd" episode of South Park earlier today when someone was talking about the importance of voting (the episode involves both the issue of voting and PETA).

[Coidzor]

Technically, we are all made of meat (http://www.eastoftheweb.com/short-stories/UBooks/TheyMade.shtml).

No Sax or Ben Bailey? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaFZTAOb7IE) :smallfrown:

[Elfinor]

Also why do they reference Pamela Anderson so much? They actually have a character praise Barb Wire during the game. PETA references sexy women all the time. That is their primary 'marketing' gimmick. Heard of 'I'd rather go naked than wear fur.'? That's PETA - they recruited celebrities to go naked. They also did a NSFW ad to promote vegetarianism that they were going to air during Superbowl 43. It got banned because... it's just that sexy.

It's so prevalent in the organization that it's actually at the stage where some commentators think they're protecting animals at the price of objectifying women. I think they have other issues to worry about, personally.

[Ravens_cry]

No Sax or Ben Bailey? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaFZTAOb7IE) :smallfrown:
Not everyone can access Youtube.

[Coidzor]

Not everyone can access Youtube.

No Youtube? :smallfrown: That's too bad, I'm sorry to hear that.


PETA references sexy women all the time. That is their primary 'marketing' gimmick. Heard of 'I'd rather go naked than wear fur.'? That's PETA - they recruited celebrities to go naked. They also did a NSFW ad to promote vegetarianism that they were going to air during Superbowl 43. It got banned because... it's just that sexy.

It's so prevalent in the organization that it's actually at the stage where some commentators think they're protecting animals at the price of objectifying women. I think they have other issues to worry about, personally.

Indeed. It's unfortunate that they keep making a big deal about these women being sexy when such is clearly not the case.

I'd swear they actually do something to skank up the appearance of those who don't normally appear skanky....:smallsigh:

[Ravens_cry]

No Youtube? :smallfrown: That's too bad, I'm sorry to hear that.

Not me personally, but I hear it is a common practise at some workplaces to block Youtube.
Also, some apelings still use . . .*shudder* dial-up.

[Serpentine]

I have heard that over 90% of pet stores get their dogs from puppy mills. Does anyone have a decent source on that? Because I really can't stand puppy mills at all, and that seems like an extraordinarily high percentage.I'd be very surprised if my local pet store bought from puppy mills. They're just not consistent enough - this week it's moodles, last week jack russell x pomeranians or something. I'm pretty sure the kitten my Boy bought there (who sadly got hit by a car :smallfrown:) was the kitten of a neighbour's cat (who really should've been desexed :smallannoyed:). So yeah, I think they mostly get whatever local pets poot out.
But, you know. Australia != USA.

[Morph Bark]

Someone should ask them if they are going to do a Mario game featuring frog skins next.

[Ravens_cry]

Someone should ask them if they are going to do a Mario game featuring frog skins next.
Don't give them ideas.:smallsigh:

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Remember the ads where they drew the parts of a cow on to a woman's body?

That was both sexy, AND made me hungry!

[Serpentine]

Wait a minute... They're not against animal cruelty. They're FOR cannabalism! :eek:

[Zen Monkey]

Read up on their "Angel of Death" program, which is based on the belief that it is better for them to kidnap and kill my dog than for it to have the horrible life of unlimited food, shelter, and health care that I provide.

You can also read up on the numerous investigations regarding their involvement with domestic terrorist organizations and the many connections that their higher-ups have had to several murders.

Their lower rank and file might just be some hippies, but their leadership consists of some seriously bad people.

[The Succubus]

Wait a minute... They're not against animal cruelty. They're FOR cannabalism! :eek:

And that is why I will never accept when a girl from PETA asks me, "Do you want to get a bite together this evening."

[Traab]

Read up on their "Angel of Death" program, which is based on the belief that it is better for them to kidnap and kill my dog than for it to have the horrible life of unlimited food, shelter, and health care that I provide.

You can also read up on the numerous investigations regarding their involvement with domestic terrorist organizations and the many connections that their higher-ups have had to several murders.

Their lower rank and file might just be some hippies, but their leadership consists of some seriously bad people.

I thought it was ALF that had the terrorist connections? I knew PETA had heavy duty hypocrisy in its upper levels, but I just ignored them as mindless loons.

[Jack Squat]

I thought it was ALF that had the terrorist connections? I knew PETA had heavy duty hypocrisy in its upper levels, but I just ignored them as mindless loons.

PETA's apparently been funding ELF, though they deny it. They've also financially helped out individuals who either had done or went on to commit illegal acts in the name of stopping animal abuse. I think getting more into it might cross some rules, but a quick Google will turn up more in depth results.

[Maryring]

Ironically, this thread taught me to better appreciate all the effort my sister and father spent on research, background-checks and the like before getting a dog.

[H Birchgrove]

peta makes me want to do something just out of spite. but everything i can think of involves hurting people, or cute fluffy creatures.
this is an... interesting conundrum.

also, tanuki are adorable

Eat a bacon hamburger with chicken nuggets instead of French Fries. Buy a leather jacket made of real leather. Buy a fur coat to your gf. Buy a car that runs on bio diesel and ask your petrol station if they have bio diesel made of tallow.

[Karoht]

On Pets:
Remember folks, it's not just cats and dogs.
Do you own a bird? Odds are that it or it's parents were wild caught.
Do you own any form of reptile?
Do you own fish?
Do you own a monkey?
Do you own a Ferret?

There are certain pets that odds are, we just shouldn't own. Our environments aren't easily suited to them, and it's contributing to these animals being removed from the wild. This lowers biodiversity of an area, along with potential fertility rates of the species by removing viable mates.


On other markets:
Certain animal products are highly valued for bizarre reasons. Tiger's Gall Bladder. Panda parts. Shark Fin Soup. If people weren't completely gullable morons then there would be no market for these animal products, thus no necessity to harvest them.

In fact much could be said for just ensuring that there simply was not a market for animals or their products.


On Laws:
In most north american juristictions, animal rights/cruelty laws are over a century old. Some basic updates would go a very very long way. Michael Vick might have served a proper sentence if these laws weren't outdated and mostly created with the treatment of livestock in mind rather than pets.

[The Glyphstone]

Or two carps.:smallbiggrin:

http://www.instantrimshot.com

[Tyndmyr]

Okay, they did not say that Alzheimer's is misdiagnosed mad cow disease, they said that some cases of Alzheimer's may be misdiagnosed mad cow disease and that eating meat may increase your chance of Alzheimer's. Which are certainly weasel words, but they're still not saying what you claim they're saying.

Though there's definitely some exaggeration on that page, e.g. taking experts who say "don't eat too much of certain kinds of meat" and turning it into "don't eat meat."

Well, that's a valuable lesson for the kid on reading carefully, seeking out multiple sources, etc, etc.

Also, on the whole "letting pets free" thing, I find that very irresponsible. Stray house cats are known to be the cause of a great deal of predation, and can actually jack an ecosystem up pretty good. Entirely aside from the dangers to the pet of not adapting to the wild(fairly likely) and dying miserably, you have the danger of them...adapting well. Then, you've basically just introduced new things to the ecosystem, which probably displaces existing things. I don't advocate doing such tinkering unless you have an idea of what you're doing(say working for the forest service and such), and you should probably consult with local authorities before releasing animals into the wild.

[Squark]

On Pets:
Remember folks, it's not just cats and dogs.
Do you own a bird? Odds are that it or it's parents were wild caught.
Do you own any form of reptile?
Do you own fish?
Do you own a monkey?
Do you own a Ferret?

There are certain pets that odds are, we just shouldn't own. Our environments aren't easily suited to them, and it's contributing to these animals being removed from the wild. This lowers biodiversity of an area, along with potential fertility rates of the species by removing viable mates

Nitpicking here; the ferret is an entirely domestic animal, like a cat, dog, fancy (domestic) rat, rabbit or mouse, or livestock. All of these animals shouldn't have any wild anscestors within quite a few generations, unless the breeding stock was contaminated.

I confess I don't know enough about birds, fish, or reptiles to say if those have been domesticated or not, although I can say that you're correct about the monkeys. Also, they're incredibly destructive, because those behaviors haven't been bred out of them.

A brief wikipedia search suggests at least a few breeds of fish have been succesfully domesticated (the goldfish in particular), as have some of the more common pet birds (Pigeons, Parakeets, Cockatiels, and Canaries).

EDIT: I'm not trying to attack your post. I'm just pointing out that several species of fish and birds can be bred as pets responsibly. The ferret, in particular, has been domesticated for over 2000 years (references to ferrets being used for rabbit control can be found dating back to the time of Caesar Augustus).

[Karoht]

Nitpicking here; the ferret is an entirely domestic animal, like a cat, dog, fancy (domestic) rat, rabbit or mouse, or livestock. All of these animals shouldn't have any wild anscestors within quite a few generations, unless the breeding stock was contaminated.

I confess I don't know enough about birds, fish, or reptiles to say if those have been domesticated or not, although I can say that you're correct about the monkeys. Also, they're incredibly destructive, because those behaviors haven't been bred out of them.

A brief wikipedia search suggests at least a few breeds of fish have been succesfully domesticated (the goldfish in particular), as have some of the more common pet birds (Pigeons, Parakeets, Cockatiels, and Canaries).While you are entirely correct, in the case of birds, there is still a good chance that a bird you find in a pet store is either wild caught, or a family member within a few generations was wild caught, despite their domesticaton as early as the 1870's. Just because they are domesticated doesn't mean it is the most common source. And the Eclectus? Domesticated in 1980? These animals live some 50-70 years. That means any one of them in a pet shop today could still have parents who were wild caught.

Iguana's were only domesticated 20 years ago, meaning that babies in a pet store could still come from parents that were wild caught. Most pet species of frog are only considered domesticated in the last 10 years. Pet stores don't even carry frogs because they're controlled species, which would have a major impact on environments if they got into the wild.

On fish, yes, goldfish are classified as domesticated, but it's the only fish on the list that is classified that way. Lion fish, puffer fish, clown fish (famous from Finding Nemo, please don't call it a nemo fish) and quite a few of the exotic looking fish are most likely wild caught from coral reefs. Though the more common freshwater species are starting to be sourced by north american breeders.


From Wiki:

To be considered domesticated, a population of animals must have their behavior, life cycle, or physiology systemically altered as a result of being under human control for many generations. Animals included in this list that do not fully meet this criterion are designated "captive-bred" or "semi-domesticated".As for the term domesticated, it isn't necessarily a good thing to be domesticating animals in the first place. And again, just because there are domesticated sources for an animal (reputable proper breeders) doesn't mean that an animal you find in a pet store comes from a domesticated source, let alone a domestic one. IE-Wild-caught fish and birds and reptiles.

[Traab]

Pet stores don't even carry frogs because they're controlled species, which would have a major impact on environments if they got into the wild.

Then why was I able to buy albino frogs for my fish tank? Cool buggers, they are solid white, except for their red eyes, and the bottoms of their feet are black. I call em my demon toads. They can also apparently survive out of water for decent lengths of time, considering how often they would jump out of my fish tank, only to be found covered in dust under the bookcase a couple hours later. Meh, probably wouldnt survive long as a species considering they dont exactly blend in.

[Squark]

While you are entirely correct, in the case of birds, there is still a good chance that a bird you find in a pet store is either wild caught, or a family member within a few generations was wild caught, despite their domesticaton in the 1870's. Just because they are domesticated doesn't mean it is the most common source. And the Eclectus? Domesticated in 1980? These animals live some 50-70 years. That means any one of them in a pet shop today could still have parents who were wild caught.

Iguana's were only domesticated 20 years ago, meaning that babies in a pet store could still come from parents that were wild caught. Most pet species of frog are only considered domesticated in the last 10 years. Pet stores don't even carry frogs because they're controlled species, which would have a major impact on environments if they got into the wild. Intersting. Did not know that. Hence why I didn't actually comment on that

On fish, yes, goldfish are classified as domesticated, but it's the only fish on the list that is classified that way. Lion fish, puffer fish, clown fish (famous from Finding Nemo, please don't call it a nemo fish) and quite a few of the exotic looking fish are most likely wild caught from coral reefs. Though the more common freshwater species are starting to be sourced by north american breeders. True, although I admit when I wasn't even thinking of salt water fish. And yes, calling a clown fish (it's not exactly a hard name to remember) the Nemo fish should be punishable by law. I was thinking more of the Betta, most of which are at the very least several generations removed from the wild, in order to get the beautiful colors and fin length that is impractical in the wild.


From Wiki:
As for the term domesticated, it isn't necessarily a good thing to be domesticating animals in the first place. And again, just because there are domesticated sources for an animal (reputable proper breeders) doesn't mean that an animal you find in a pet store comes from a domesticated source, let alone a domestic one. IE-Wild-caught fish and birds and reptiles. True. Which is why it's important to always get your pets from a reputable source. Preferably someone doing it for the good of the breed.

My comments are in bold. Overall, though, I agree with what you're saying. The real question is what can we do about it, but now we're starting to get into territory I'm not sure we can discuss on these forums.


Then why was I able to buy albino frogs for my fish tank?
You're probably in different countries, which thus have different laws.

[Xyk]

Not quite. The Tanuki, or Japanese raccoon dog.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/Tanuki01_960.jpg/800px-Tanuki01_960.jpg

That. Is. Adorable. I want to love it forever.

[Traab]

That. Is. Adorable. I want to love it forever.

I prefer red pandas! http://conservationreport.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/red-panda.jpg http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1326907130374&id=fb23229580b19105bcbb20fdb9789b57

[TheCountAlucard]

An observation I made while playing the game...

You generally can't catch Mario until a good minute or so into the game. As he flies along, the suit continuously drips a copious amount of blood. Considering that the suit apparently has that much blood on it, and that the skinned Tanooki is able to run him down after a minute-long chase, this leads me to believe that our little protagonist is some manner of undead, perhaps a revenant of some sort, or a Dawn of the Dead remake zombie, in which case having it take the skin back should be the least of Mario's concerns. :smallamused:

[Zen Monkey]

Do you own a monkey?

If I don't get to have a child, for whatever reason, this is plan B.
Monkeys are awesome.

[Dr.Epic]

I don't know about parody, but that game is too difficult. I can't even last 30 seconds.

[Forum Explorer]

PETA is insane and I think does more damage then good. If they didn't exist then perhaps some organizations that actually help animals will receive some more money

As for pets I recommend getting them from a private breeder. That way you get to meet them and actually see how they treat the animal before you make your choice. And this can be done for most animals (Probably not monkeys)

[Karoht]

My comments are in bold. Overall, though, I agree with what you're saying. The real question is what can we do about it, but now we're starting to get into territory I'm not sure we can discuss on these forums.Well, as far as PETA is concerned, educating the public would likely have a far better effect than breaking and entering and murdering someone's pet. Encouraging people to avoid poor sources for pets would go very far. Encouraging better laws (that aren't 100+ years old in some cases), would be a help.
If they want to keep up the sensationalism, they could easily do so towards bad breeders, pet stores who buy from bad breeders, or orient these silly video game style stunts towards the owners of animals or potential pet owners. My fiance's vet clinic shot and produced a short DVD about declawing a cat and they now force every single person who wants their animal declawed to watch it first. PETA could totally 1-up that. (See what I did thar?)




Then why was I able to buy albino frogs for my fish tank?Albino doesn't mean exotic species or controlled species. Depends on where you live mostly.

EDIT: And yes. Red Panda's for the win. My fiance used to work at the Calgary Zoo. The red panda's there are awesome.

[Gullintanni]

peta makes me want to do something just out of spite. but everything i can think of involves hurting people, or cute fluffy creatures.
this is an... interesting conundrum.

also, tanuki are adorable

Adopt a dog from a shelter. PETA doesn't believe in pets, and favors what they call, "Total Animal Liberation". Owning pets is, according to PETA, the moral equivalent of slavery.

Never mind that the dog in the shelter will be euthanized if it isn't adopted, because we can't let it out onto the street where it will also probably die...or that animals are proven to live longer, healthier lives under human care. PETA makes me angry. Grrr.

But yes, if you want to spite them, seriously, adopt a pet. And you know, keep eating tasty meat :smallwink:

[Zen Monkey]

As for pets I recommend getting them from a private breeder. That way you get to meet them and actually see how they treat the animal before you make your choice. And this can be done for most animals (Probably not monkeys)

I now need to find a way to befriend a monkey breeder. After a long day I can just go visit the monkeys, toss them a fruit basket and watch them have a party. It's better than anything on tv.

[bluewind95]

I read about this and craved a hamburger that day. But I'd already eaten, so I couldn't eat one.

... Guess what I ate yesterday.

Today I had a yummy ham and salami sandwich for breakfast.

[Karoht]

I now need to find a way to befriend a monkey breeder. After a long day I can just go visit the monkeys, toss them a fruit basket and watch them have a party. It's better than anything on tv.
There is a video of baby otters being fed at a zoo that I would be willing to wager is equally entertaining.

They stand on their hind legs and hop up and down waiting for food.
And they make a noise that sounds like 'bee'
Except they do this very rapidly. Picture about 10 of them doing this.
*jumping up and down* beebeebee bee beebee beebeebeebee beebee beebeebee bee.

Heart-breakingly adorable.

[Starbuck_II]

Took me 7 tries but I finally got Mario. The zombie Tanooki won, yeah!

[Savannah]

If I don't get to have a child, for whatever reason, this is plan B.
Monkeys are awesome.

Err...yes, but they're horrible pets. (Can I get any more emphasis on that?) If you're serious, you need to research this for a long time and consider very carefully what you're going to have to put up with. Do you have a veterinarian who's qualified to treat a monkey? Who's going to take care of it while you're on vacation? Can you guarantee you'll live in a place where it's allowed for the entire lifespan of the monkey? Is it even legal where you live? Are you able to prepare and provide the correct diet every single day? How will you guarantee you aren't contributing to the illegal and inhumane capture of wild monkeys for the pet trade? What will you do if your monkey becomes aggressive or can't be house trained or has some other behavior problem? (And "give it to a zoo" is not an acceptable answer.) That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are more issues you need to consider.

[Zen Monkey]

Err...yes, but they're horrible pets.

Don't worry, I wasn't serious. It's just a little fantasy that will never see reality. As a friend of mine put it, "I used to like monkeys too, until I smelled one."

[Savannah]

Oh good! I wasn't sure if it was a joke or not, and so decided to run with the worst possible interpretation on the grounds that discouraging someone who never wanted a monkey from having one can't hurt anything :smalltongue:

[MCerberus]

Their efforts, I think, would really be better spent helping out causes that show that they're not 'way out there' and would actually get support from the public. Local example, this state has pretty well had enough of the shame associated with puppy mills, and animal rights groups could have an effect helping to get things changed.

[Squark]

Agreed. If they focused on combating things the general public agrees are wrong (Puppy mills) and dealt with relatively sane things (like the immoralities of the exotic pet trade), they'd be much more effective. Promoting vegetarianism isn't bad by any means, but when you go so far people have to wonder if you are no longer serious, it does more harm than good.

[TheCountAlucard]

If they focused on combating things the general public agrees are wrong and dealt with relatively sane things, they'd be much more effective.Be that as it may, that's just plain not on their agenda. :smallsigh:

They're much more concerned with attention-whoring.

After all, rather than attack the fur industry or the suppliers themselves, they instead attack Nintendo and restaurants. One actually does the things they're protesting, but the other only gets them more attention if targeted.


Promoting vegetarianism isn't bad by any means...It is when you do it by their means. :smallannoyed:

Believe me on this one.

[Karoht]

It is when you do it by their means. :smallannoyed:
Believe me on this one.I think it's safe to suggest that their ends do not justify their attempted means.



They're much more concerned with attention-whoring.Yeup. So far so good I guess.

[Icewalker]

Honestly, I noticed one of the big effects of their over the top antics on my own perspective just the other day. I saw a little tiny sign on campus, no details on it, just expressing that there existed an animal rights group here. My first thoughts were "Are they as crazy and awful as PETA?" My second thought was "That's ridiculous, of course not," and my third was this post, but the point stands, they make a bad name for animal rights and conservationists in general.

[Asta Kask]

PETA... *sigh* PETA is to the animal rights movement what WBC is to mainstream Christians.

Raccoon dogs as pets (http://www.wasbeerhonden.nl/Pets.html)

[Gullintanni]

PETA... *sigh* PETA is to the animal rights movement what WBC is to mainstream Christians.

Raccoon dogs as pets (http://www.wasbeerhonden.nl/Pets.html)

I long to understand your analogy, but WBC? I think I figured it out. If it is what I think it is, then I don't really want to give them any publicity.

Edit: Yeah, I was right. Sometimes, the world makes me sad...

[Asta Kask]

Westboro Baptist Church. Just Google it.

Basically, PETA are real-world trolls.

[Gullintanni]

Basically, PETA are real-world trolls.

I think that's being too soft, but an accurate description would probably get me in trouble. It was an apt analogy though. Thanks for confirming.

[Tyndmyr]

I think it's safe to suggest that their ends do not justify their attempted means.

Honestly, their means probably don't help them achieve their ends. The reaction of people to nintendo spoofs and such is pretty much purely negative.

I mean, I honestly have no problem with the idea of things like minimizing discomfort for animals and such. Seems legit. But wild shenanigans don't get you taken seriously or advance your message.

WBC are real-world trolls as well. Not in a religious sense, but in a legal one. Note that the family consists of lawyers who sue a LOT. The actual venue of trolling (religion, gaming, animal rights) is mostly irrelevant. The whole trolling for attention thing is a fairly widespread phenomenon, and one that some have managed to turn to profit, at least for themselves.

[Juggling Goth]

Do you own any form of reptile?


I'm pretty sure the astonishing range of colours and patterns you can get on corn snakes is not found in the wild. There's a hell of a lot of selective breeding goes into those.

Regarding pets, rescue animals, etc, four of my pets are ex-battery chickens. (The other is the aforementioned corn snake.) As in, commercial intensive laying hens that were going to be slaughtered as they no longer laid enough to be worth feeding. I got them a month ago. They've learned normal chicken behaviour so fast - they were nesting and going inside at night much faster than I expected - even if their beaks are never gonna grow back and I need to take Arky to the vet to see about her dodgy leg. I've been vegetarian for 17 of my 28 years, and generally quite hardcore about animal welfare/rights, but I have a problem with PETA's notion that I should've just let my girls get made into cheap meat.

They make adorable pets, btw, and from my family this year for Xmas I'm asking for contributions to make them a lovely big walk-in run so they can have all the space and different textures and perches they could possibly want. Just... don't underestimate the amount of poo you'll have to clean up. And those normal chicken behaviours, that you're so tearfully happy to see develop? Involve a lot of digging and flinging stuff around. And there's the inevitable heartbreak when you're rehoming animals that have been pushed to the limit for the first year of their lives and will probably age young and badly as a result. But they're super-awesome.

[Asta Kask]

You misunderstand. You should have let them roam the English countryside in glorious freedom.

Until they meet the first fox and try to eat it.

[Juggling Goth]

Roam? My tiny run left two of them paralysed with confusion, and the other two plain refused to leave their carrying boxes. Having a few square feet to themselves blew their tiny chicken minds.

[Asta Kask]

Blue Screen of Death?

[Juggling Goth]

Totally! Imagine a whole countryside full of crashed chickens... I got a similar reaction when I introduced them to their first cabbage-on-a-string.

[Squark]

It is when you do it by their means. :smallannoyed:

Believe me on this one.

Not what I intended when I said that, as the rest of the post indicated. Sorry for the confusion. To put it bluntly, there's nothing wrong with promoting vegetarianism, but hoe PETA does it, in my opinion, of questionable morality and intelligence.

[Karoht]

Regarding pets, rescue animals, etc, four of my pets are ex-battery chickens. My fiance wants to keep a few as pets and not for eating or egg laying once we move out of the city. I'm cool with that, as from all my research, they do make good pets as long as you have the space.

A question I have about battery chickens that maybe you can answer.
If they lay an egg, do they still make their egg song or was that somehow stamped out of them back in the mill?

[Coidzor]

Someone should ask them if they are going to do a Mario game featuring frog skins next.

I can just see it now. Gratuitous french music(annoyingly enough, I can't find the stereotypical annoying french song via youtube. x.x Guess I'll have to learn its name one of these days) and Mario, where they conveniently forget that he's supposed to be Italian or Italian American. And baguettes. Baguettes everywhere.... :smalleek:


Their lower rank and file might just be some hippies, but their leadership consists of some seriously bad people.

One of their founders has the first name of Ingrid. That is not the name you give to a little girl if you want her to grow up to be a good person. It's the kind of name where you want the poor gel to become misanthropic and distant from the rest of humanity because kids will pounce on a name like that. Also it just sounds kind of dark.


Also, on the whole "letting pets free" thing, I find that very irresponsible.

Another big issue would be rabies. In the U.S. and UK and I believe other developed nations as well, the main refuge of it is in domestic and feral dogs. And since previously domestic dogs that have gone wild have no fear of man, they'll be hanging out in closer proximity to us and scavenging. So with the increased density of dogs that aren't being limited in their exposure to other dogs by owners, rabies is going to become an actual issue that will bleed over and have an effect on public health.

Well, unless you just start slaughtering the dogs en masse or something equally unsavory.


If I don't get to have a child, for whatever reason, this is plan B.
Monkeys are awesome.

Monkeys are the trolls of the animal kingdom, and of the primates especially(well, you know, barring the human ones). They're basically an argument in favor of their own extinction.

...Not unlike children...

...Touche, sir...

[Asta Kask]

Totally! Imagine a whole countryside full of crashed chickens... I got a similar reaction when I introduced them to their first cabbage-on-a-string.

You should introduce them to cats... :smalltongue:

[Squark]

You should introduce them to cats... :smalltongue:

Good God, no. Have mercy on those poor chickens.


And besides, free-range eggs, and the chickens who lay them, taste better.

What? I'm just saying...

[Juggling Goth]

My fiance wants to keep a few as pets and not for eating or egg laying once we move out of the city. I'm cool with that, as from all my research, they do make good pets as long as you have the space.

A question I have about battery chickens that maybe you can answer.
If they lay an egg, do they still make their egg song or was that somehow stamped out of them back in the mill?

They lay eggs pretty quietly. I got one on the journey back from the rehoming point and the first I knew about it was when I found the egg in the otherwise-empty carrier. And the other day my top hen Dippy dropped an egg in the food bowl and sauntered off fairly casually. Generally ex-battery hens are Warrens, hybrids bred specifically to produce a lot of eggs without much fuss. Certainly the Cochins (ornamental chicken breed) I work with make a lot more noise about it.

You probably will get some eggs, but it can be pretty random, and because of how intensive their early lives are, they're a bit more prone to laying-related problems later. At the moment, I get three eggs a day from four hens, which is way more than I can eat. But I wanted to give them a nice retirement, and the fact they can shoot food out of their butts was just a bonus.



Another big issue would be rabies. In the U.S. and UK and I believe other developed nations as well, the main refuge of it is in domestic and feral dogs.

Not in the UK, thankfully. It's why we give everyone such a hard time about bringing their pets in. There's been a couple of bat conservationists who've caught related lyssaviruses (at least one subsequently died), but we don't have classic rabies.


You should introduce them to cats... :smalltongue:

Heh. The average chicken can send the average cat away crying, but that's no reason to stress either of them out trying it.

[TheCountAlucard]

And besides, free-range eggs, and the chickens who lay them, taste better.While this is true, "free-range eggs" you buy in a store are in no way guaranteed to be as free-range as chickens with the same label. No regulation whatsoever is required for anything other than the chickens being raised for their meat being called "free-range."

...and technically, all the requirement needed to call your chicken "free-range" is that you give it access to the outside. You could open the barn door for five minutes a day, and bam, your chickens are free-range!

Anyway, I've given my Zombie Tanooki hypothesis some more thought, and I've decided I may well turn it into a bit of fiction.

[Squark]

While this is true, "free-range eggs" you buy in a store are in no way guaranteed to be as free-range as chickens with the same label... and technically, all the requirement needed to call your chicken "free-range" is that you give it access to the outside. No regulation whatsoever is required for anything other than the chickens being raised for their meat being called "free-range."

Anyway, I've given my Zombie Tanooki hypothesis some more thought, and I've decided I may well turn it into a bit of fiction.

Oh, of course. Keep in mind, my only experience with such eggs comes from some my family got from a small farm (My mom taught violin to one of the children, and they paid her with various fresh goods). I can vouch for the fact that said chickens were free-range, as I observed them walking around the property (and being annoyed by young children)

[Asta Kask]

If they lay an egg, do they still make their egg song or was that somehow stamped out of them back in the mill?

The 'egg-song' behavior smells to me like something that has been bred into chickens. Drawing attention to your nest while in the jungles of India sounds really stupid. Granted, chickens aren't intellectual giants but it seems to handy for a human raising chickens for the egg for it to be coincidence... I wonder if the Red Junglefowl does this - I suspect not.

[Juggling Goth]

They lay eggs pretty quietly.

... They do, however, make some great noises. Very rarely proper clucking. When I check on them when they're tucked in at night, they make these sleepy cooing sounds. When they want to be let out in the morning and I'm late and I'm an awful Mommy and they've been up for hours, they make this whining noise like an angry cat, but higher-pitched. And when they're going about their business pecking stuff, they make little squeaks and trills.

[Coidzor]

Not in the UK, thankfully. It's why we give everyone such a hard time about bringing their pets in. There's been a couple of bat conservationists who've caught related lyssaviruses (at least one subsequently died), but we don't have classic rabies.

Bah! Propaganda trying to lull you into a false sense of security. It's out there. Just waiting for enough feral animals to congregate in an area... Biding its time... Until it strikes back.

[THAC0]

and the fact they can shoot food out of their butts was just a bonus.



I nearly snorted my drink out my nose there.

Hoping to get a pair of chickens once we finish our upcoming move, largely for the shooting-food-out-butt reason.

[Starwulf]

Good God, no. Have mercy on those poor chickens.


And besides, free-range eggs, and the chickens who lay them, taste better.

What? I'm just saying...

Hmm, I'll be honest, I've had free-range eggs, and regular, and I've been unable to taste the difference, and considering the substantial price increase, It's just not worth it in my opinion. Same goes for actually eating those Free-Range chickens. Though, here there is a small difference in taste, it's just not worth the steep increase in price(usually 1 1/2 more expensive, sometimes up to double). I'll keep my money thanks ^^

[Worira]

Honestly, I noticed one of the big effects of their over the top antics on my own perspective just the other day. I saw a little tiny sign on campus, no details on it, just expressing that there existed an animal rights group here. My first thoughts were "Are they as crazy and awful as PETA?" My second thought was "That's ridiculous, of course not," and my third was this post, but the point stands, they make a bad name for animal rights and conservationists in general.

Well, no, actually, "animal rights" is a fairly specific term for a fairly fringe movement, and should not be confused with "animal welfare" or similar.

[LaZodiac]

even if their beaks are never gonna grow back

What happened to their beaks? *is completely ignorant about what battery chickens are*

[Savannah]

Battery chickens are chickens from commercial egg farms. They have the ends of their beaks clipped off because when you keep them in the horrible conditions they are in, they will attack each other from stress and overcrowding. So instead of giving them more room, the "solution" is to make it so they can't peck each other.

Also, re being happy at seeing normal behaviors, I'm currently teaching an 8 year old dog what to do with toys and how to react when people talk to her (previously, she would totally ignore me, as she'd apparently never had anyone talk to her before and had no idea I was actually talking to her), so I know how you feel, Juggling Goth. I'm glad your hens are getting so much better so quickly!

[H Birchgrove]

Well, no, actually, "animal rights" is a fairly specific term for a fairly fringe movement, and should not be confused with "animal welfare" or similar.

Yeah. It should also be noted noted that one of the famous intellectuals who get to have a say in these matters, Peter Singer, doesn't believe in "animal rights" for the same reasons he doesn't believe in human rights; he's an utilitarian.

[Coidzor]

Also, re being happy at seeing normal behaviors, I'm currently teaching an 8 year old dog what to do with toys and how to react when people talk to her (previously, she would totally ignore me, as she'd apparently never had anyone talk to her before and had no idea I was actually talking to her), so I know how you feel, Juggling Goth. I'm glad your hens are getting so much better so quickly!

A non-feral dog that's never been talked to by a human? Whoa.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Battery chickens are chickens from commercial egg farms. They have the ends of their beaks clipped off because when you keep them in the horrible conditions they are in, they will attack each other from stress and overcrowding. So instead of giving them more room, the "solution" is to make it so they can't peck each other.

I mean, if it's going to die be killed before it runs its course anyway ...

[Savannah]

A non-feral dog that's never been talked to by a human? Whoa.

She has some behavior that makes me wonder if she was kept by a deaf person, which might explain it. There are other things that make me suspect she was kept in the house and used as a breeding dog rather than a pet (and then dumped when she couldn't have puppies anymore). So I dunno. She's definitely had interactions with people, but apparently no one talked to her, cuddled her or played with her :smallfrown:

[Isolder74]

One thing that bugs me about PETA is that they spend millions of dollars hiring Porn stars, like Pamela Anderson, to pose naked and take part in their retarded media campaigns. What makes it worse is that most of the time said stars don't give a dame where the $'s are coming from or what their image and such is even being used for. It's the very definition of hypocrisy and hubris.

Contrast that with the HUmane Society and the ASPCA who do something actually useful with the money they are donated yearly and would give their right arm for even half of the funds PETA wastes doing what equates to nothing.

Every dollar donated to PETA would be better off used for kindling in a campfire!

[LaZodiac]

Not to be off topic, but...I don't think Pamela Anderson is a porn star.

Speaking of that dirty subject, PETA is making/made there own porn site. Only, if I understand correctly, random footage of animal brutality is spliced into it. All this is going to do is associate bloodshed with pleasure for some people. Bad move all around, really.

[THAC0]

Not to be off topic, but...I don't think Pamela Anderson is a porn star.



I guess that depends on whether or not you consider Playboy stuff to be porn?

[Tebryn]

One thing that bugs me about PETA is that they spend millions of dollars hiring Porn stars, like Pamela Anderson, to pose naked and take part in their retarded media campaigns.

I just want to say this but Pamela Anderson isn't a porn star. She's had a few of her personal videos leaked but she isn't a porn star.



I guess that depends on whether or not you consider Playboy stuff to be porn?

She's not famous for being in Playboy. She's famous because she was in a terrible TV show and had big tracks of land. She's not a porn star and I certainly don't think she'd say she was. She's not Asia Carerra or anything here folks.

[LaZodiac]

I guess that depends on whether or not you consider Playboy stuff to be porn?

No, but like Tebryn said, Baywatch certainly made good use of her...assets.

Also, I occasional get her and Paris Hilton mixed up. Atleast Pamela has......some talent.

[Serpentine]

While you are entirely correct, in the case of birds, there is still a good chance that a bird you find in a pet store [has] a family member within a few generations was wild caught... That means any one of them in a pet shop today could still have parents who were wild caught.

Iguana's were only domesticated 20 years ago, meaning that babies in a pet store could still come from parents that were wild caught. Most pet species of frog are only considered domesticated in the last 10 years.Personally, I'm fine with that. The sooner a stable and viable domestic breeding population gets going, the sooner none of them (or at least few) will be wild-caught.

My ex's dog was an RSPCA dog. He lived on a fairly large property (as far as a non-farm goes) out in the bush. When they brought the dog, Whisky, home, she got out of the car and stopped. She stared around, stared at the family, stared around again, looked at the family again, did three laps around the house and then stopped and stared at the family again before doing another few laps. And then they had to teach her how to get up the three stairs to the house :/

Personally, I do think we should enforce some basic animal rights - no needless pain and suffering, freedom to move around and behave normally, that sort of thing. I don't think that "right to not get eaten" is one of them - I don't think that's even a human right - but I do think "right to a swift and as painless as possible death" is.

Also: I don't like primates, and marmosets don't like toes :smallyuk:

Also also: My eggs of choice (http://www.ecoeggs.com.au/) (if I can't get home-raised, which is most of the time). This table may be of especial interest to those worried about egg brands claiming "free range" status but only barely adhering to the minimum legal standards:
http://www.ecoeggs.com.au/storage/images/Audit-Tables-2010-November-v2.png

[Coidzor]

Not to be off topic, but...I don't think Pamela Anderson is a porn star.

Speaking of that dirty subject, PETA is making/made there own porn site. Only, if I understand correctly, random footage of animal brutality is spliced into it. All this is going to do is associate bloodshed with pleasure for some people. Bad move all around, really.

One might even say there is a method to this madness, and they hope for people to actually start mixing animal abuse with their sex so they have something new to get up in arms about. :smallsigh:

[Gullintanni]

One might even say there is a method to this madness, and they hope for people to actually start mixing animal abuse with their sex so they have something new to get up in arms about. :smallsigh:

That would be astonishingly in keeping with everything I've learned about PETA thus far. :smallmad:

Also, Ingrid Newkirk is the relevant founders name. To learn more:
http://www.nokillnow.com/PETAIngridNewkirkResign.htm

[Traab]

I guess that depends on whether or not you consider Playboy stuff to be porn?

And her sex tape with tommy. In fact, didnt she have two home made sex tapes or something? But yeah, not primarily a porn star. Most of the choices as far as I can recall were just really hot film and tv stars posing in ways that might barely be banned from maxim magazine. Maybe.

[Tyndmyr]

Speaking of that dirty subject, PETA is making/made there own porn site. Only, if I understand correctly, random footage of animal brutality is spliced into it. All this is going to do is associate bloodshed with pleasure for some people. Bad move all around, really.

That sounds like the worst website ever.

[The Succubus]

While this is true, "free-range eggs" you buy in a store are in no way guaranteed to be as free-range as chickens with the same label. No regulation whatsoever is required for anything other than the chickens being raised for their meat being called "free-range."

...and technically, all the requirement needed to call your chicken "free-range" is that you give it access to the outside. You could open the barn door for five minutes a day, and bam, your chickens are free-range!

Anyway, I've given my Zombie Tanooki hypothesis some more thought, and I've decided I may well turn it into a bit of fiction.

I wonder what Tanooki actually tastes like.

[Juggling Goth]

She's definitely had interactions with people, but apparently no one talked to her, cuddled her or played with her :smallfrown:

Aw, poor little puddin'. I'm glad she's got someone to give her some love and teach her about fun stuff now.

Seeing Arky take her first dust bath - she rolled around in there for fifteen minutes, and completely ignored the two top hens who came over to try and harass her out of it - nearly made me cry.

Also:


My ex's dog was an RSPCA dog. He lived on a fairly large property (as far as a non-farm goes) out in the bush. When they brought the dog, Whisky, home, she got out of the car and stopped. She stared around, stared at the family, stared around again, looked at the family again, did three laps around the house and then stopped and stared at the family again before doing another few laps. And then they had to teach her how to get up the three stairs to the house :/

Another AWWWWWWW from me.

I guess the bright side is that if I'm hearing these stories, it's because someone took the animal in and sorted it out.

[Coidzor]

I wonder what Tanooki actually tastes like.

It's a decent sized land mammal from Japan... So probably not all that good or the Japanese would have eaten it to extinction as a temporary alternative to having to subsist off of seafood alone.

I'd swear it's either that or the resemblance to humans which best explains why they still have those belligerent simians still around...

[Squark]

Another AWWWWWWW from me.

I guess the bright side is that if I'm hearing these stories, it's because someone took the animal in and sorted it out.

I agree. Those stories are heartwarming to see these animals finally find someone who cares about them, and chilling when you realize what these poor animals must have gone through.

Both of the dogs I left at home before going to college are Rescue dogs, although the elder had a lot more traumatic life than the younger. The older Shelty spent the first year of his life moving from place to place; First he was adopted by a couple whose autistic son did not react well to barking*. As a result, poor Lucky spent his early childhood locked outside in a yard... And, from what we've been able to glean, they were not the tidiest of people**. After a few months, they took the poor dog to be put down. Thankfully the vet sent him to a rescue society instead, but because of the neglect, Lucky is a bit... aggressive around food, so it took a while for them to find a home he could stay at.

Then he was briefly adopted again by a very stupid family who did not understand that dogs who have spent most of their life being rushed from home to home do not learn to respond to whistles, nor can you change a 1 year old dog's name from Lucky to Laddy over the course of a few weeks. Then we adopted him. Poor thing was scared of fire hydrants when we took him on his first walk. He's gotten a lot better over the last thirteen years, though, although he still barks his fool head off, and you don't get anywhere near him when he's eating.

Our smaller, younger dog, who we've only had for a few years, was the pampered pet of a neighbor's great aunt. Frankie was never abused (although she might have been too pampered, as we had to teach her a few manners when we got her), but she passed away from cancer, which left Frankie with a bad case of Separation Anxiety (Meaning our house gets very noisy every time someone tries to leave). None of the relatives could take her in, and she was about to go to the humane society***, when my Mom heard about her, and we've had a Miniature Pincher ever since.


*Many autistic children do not take well to loud noises. And the Shetland Sheepdog is a very vocal breed.
**Well he has to have developed his fear of folding chairs and long poles somewhere, and it certainly wasn't the Rescue society's fault..
*** Thankfully a no-kill shelter, but it's still sad whenever an animal ends up there.

[Gitman00]

It's a decent sized land mammal from Japan... So probably not all that good or the Japanese would have eaten it to extinction as a temporary alternative to having to subsist off of seafood alone.

I'd swear it's either that or the resemblance to humans which best explains why they still have those belligerent simians still around...

Tanuki are canines, not simians.

I recently read a book by Michael Pollan called The Omnivore's Dilemma. It really opened my eyes to the horrific conditions at factory farms, and even a lot of "organic" farms. Fun fact: a cow can live in crowded, unhealthy conditions and be force-fed corn (a food it's not evolved to digest) and still be certified organic, as long as it's not fed animal products, antibiotics or non-organic vegetables.

Pollan is a decidedly non-vegetarian journalist writing from the perspective of healthy eating. Books like his, I think, do a lot more for animal rights than PETA's crazy antics and attention-getting tactics. Because of stupid stunts like this, no one takes them seriously. And because no one can take them seriously, they hurt their own - quite admirable - message of preventing cruelty to animals.

[dgnslyr]

Tanuki are canines, not simians.


I think he's wondering why there's still monkeys around, because those little fuzzballs can be real devils. Tanuki, on the other hand, are way to adorable to eat, and Japan certainly loves small, adorable creatures.

[Juggling Goth]

Fun fact: a cow can live in crowded, unhealthy conditions and be force-fed corn (a food it's not evolved to digest) and still be certified organic, as long as it's not fed animal products, antibiotics or non-organic vegetables.

Mmm. I think it depends a lot on where you are, and whether certain words have legal meanings. And on whose standard you're going with and what those legal meanings are. I think I'm mostly satisfied that Soil Association Organic, here in the UK, means decent animal welfare standards - Compassion In World Farming say they have the best welfare standard in the UK. But then there are 8 other organisations that can certify organic over here, and I'm not sure what their standards are like. Since, as you say, organic does not necessarily mean higher welfare standards. Common sense says they often go together, because overcrowded conditions tend to necessitate more use of antibiotics and whatnot, but not necessarily.

Free range, in the UK, is a term that has a legal meaning which is not what people think it means - they just have to have access to the outside, not to actually spend any time out there. Most of them spend most of their lives in a shed, and the RSPCA maximum stocking density for the indoor bit of free-range is thirteen hens per square metre. (One hen per square metre for the outside bit, but as I said, that's largely irrelevant, because most of them won't go out there.) Pretty horrific.

I was not impressed to learn that my tiny chicken run - which I see as purely a stopgap measure till they get a better one - allowed each hen more space than the RSPCA 'free-range' requirements.

Anyone know anything about chicken memory? I'd really like it if my girls were going to forget their early lives quickly.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Fun fact: a cow can live in crowded, unhealthy conditions and be force-fed corn (a food it's not evolved to digest) and still be certified organic, as long as it's not fed animal products, antibiotics or non-organic vegetables.

What's your point? It is organic. Organic doesn't mean it had a perfect life.

[Karoht]

I live in Canada, Southern Alberta to be precise. I live less than 2 hours away from farmland. See the conditions, pick your cow, etc. There are a few producers I trust. Yes, I know this is a lot of work, and it's expensive to purchase my meat this way every year, but it's cheaper over the long run and the quality level is awesome for the cost. $500 bucks gets me enough beef for the year. And it keeps very well in my deep freeze. Also, I make a lot of beef stew and freeze that as well.
Sadly, no place like that where I can get my chicken or pork nearby.

[Marnath]

Fun fact: a cow can live in crowded, unhealthy conditions and be force-fed corn (a food it's not evolved to digest) and still be certified organic, as long as it's not fed animal products, antibiotics or non-organic vegetables.

Every cow I ever met preferred corn-based feed to grass. O.o
Are you sure they don't digest it? Because it's supposed to be a great dietary supplement paired with hay.

[Gitman00]

Mmm. I think it depends a lot on where you are, and whether certain words have legal meanings. And on whose standard you're going with and what those legal meanings are.

Well, yes. I'm referring to the United States Department of Agriculture standards for organic certification. There are farmers who go above and beyond, but many adhere to the barest letter of the standard just to get the organic label and resulting price premium.


I think I'm mostly satisfied that Soil Association Organic, here in the UK, means decent animal welfare standards - Compassion In World Farming say they have the best welfare standard in the UK. But then there are 8 other organisations that can certify organic over here, and I'm not sure what their standards are like. Since, as you say, organic does not necessarily mean higher welfare standards. Common sense says they often go together, because overcrowded conditions tend to necessitate more use of antibiotics and whatnot, but not necessarily.

There are private organizations in the US that impose higher standards than the USDA. Eat Wild (http://www.eatwild.com/index.html) is one of them. My main point was that, in the US, "Organic" doesn't always mean better. For example, in overcrowded organic beef and dairy farms, they hire more vets to keep a close eye on the cattle since they're still living in poor conditions but aren't allowed to use preventive antibiotics. And on industrial organic vegetable farms, they hire workers to go around with blowtorches and burn weeds by hand, since they're not allowed to use chemical herbicides.


Free range, in the UK, is a term that has a legal meaning which is not what people think it means - they just have to have access to the outside, not to actually spend any time out there. Most of them spend most of their lives in a shed, and the RSPCA minimum stocking density for the indoor bit of free-range is thirteen hens per square metre. (One hen per square metre for the outside bit, but as I said, that's largely irrelevant, because most of them won't go out there.) Pretty horrific.

US Free Range laws are similar. And I agree. I'll never be a vegetarian, but since I learned about that, I do my best to eat local whenever possible, and know the conditions at the farms my food comes from. It's hard to do that at a supermarket.

EDIT:


Every cow I ever met preferred corn-based feed to grass. O.o
Are you sure they don't digest it? Because it's supposed to be a great dietary supplement paired with hay.

Well... cows like to eat corn because it's sweet. And it is much higher-calorie than grass. It's not as big an issue when corn is given as a supplement to a diet of primarily hay and grass, but most industrial feedlots finish beef cattle almost exclusively on corn or corn-based products. The reason is that corn is very cheap, you can get a lot more cattle into an industrial feedlot with a trough than a pasture can support, and the high-calorie diet means they reach slaughter weight a lot faster.

However, a cow's rumen is evolved to digest grass. Corn increases the acidity of the rumen, which normally has an almost perfectly neutral pH. This causes all kinds of health problems for the cows, which have to be countered by pharmaceuticals and supplements.


What's your point? It is organic. Organic doesn't mean it had a perfect life.

Well, that is my point. :smallwink: The reason for buying organic is because it's ostensibly healthier, better for the animals, and better for the environment. Yet foods with the organic label that are still produced industrially may not be much better. I'm just saying, know where your food comes from. Don't trust solely to the organic label.

[Gullintanni]

Well, that is my point. :smallwink: The reason for buying organic is because it's ostensibly healthier, better for the animals, and better for the environment. Yet foods with the organic label that are still produced industrially may not be much better. I'm just saying, know where your food comes from. Don't trust solely to the organic label.

This may not even necessarily be true. Organic means that your livestock and vegetation is more susceptible to disease, they're more expensive to raise and so in the case of livestock, farmers are even more likely to cut corners to save costs, and as compassionate care of farm animals is more expensive, this is a cut that's often made even on organic farms.

In addition, organic pesticides are often extremely toxic because you're forced to rely on unaltered, natural poisons to try and kill crop destroying pests, whereas synthetic pesticides are tailor made to have as little environmental impact as possible. Moreover; in double-blind studies, organic food has been proven to yield similar (no more and no less) nutrition levels as GE food, except that it's more expensive to produce and yields far less food on a per acre basis. That said, there's definitely an argument to made about grass fed vs. corn fed livestock, as that really CAN have an effect on the nutrition of the animal, and therefore of those who consume said animal.

One can argue that organic tastes better, but really, if you put a blindfold on a person, feed them one banana that's genetically modified and one that's certified organic, they won't reliably be able to differentiate. Most of it is preconceived expectations. This sort of preconceived expectation tends to have a larger effect on one's enjoyment of a given experience than one would believe.

...none of this is to say, of course, that compassionate care of livestock isn't an admirable goal. It certainly is. But organic crop production stresses our food supply even more for what has thus far proven to be no material difference. Organic or not, just be good to your livestock. That's what I think it really comes down to.

[MCerberus]

I only trust the meat packer at Dierberg's (local grocery chain that still has bakers, butchers, a deli, and lets you see fish before you buy one), and the local butcher.

You'd really be surprised what you come up with when you ask 'what's good today?'. The butcher has the added benefit of being able to sell you the good stuff cheaper than Tyson or Cargill can offer junk.

[TheCountAlucard]

One can argue that organic tastes better, but really, if you put a blindfold on a person, feed them one banana that's genetically modified and one that's certified organic, they won't reliably be able to differentiate.Technically, all the bananas we eat are "genetically modified." The domesticated bananas we eat are an entirely different culinary experience from the ones that grow in the wild.

On another note, in regard to the discussion about cows eating corn that their bodies can't digest... this brings to mind the whole deal with food companies "supplementing" their food with cellulose, a substance which the human body can't digest - is it just me, or is the similarity here a little too uncanny? :smalltongue:

[Juggling Goth]

this brings to mind the whole deal with food companies "supplementing" their food with cellulose, a substance which the human body can't digest - is it just me, or is the similarity here a little too uncanny? :smalltongue:

Isn't 'cellulose' just what all plant cell walls are made of? I mean, isn't that just dietary fibre, which is good for you because you can't digest it? And then you don't get constipation or bowel cancer?

I dunno; I saw this scare-story on Cracked and secondary-school biology went "hang on a minute..." I may well be misunderstanding it.

[Elfinor]

Isn't 'cellulose' just what all plant cell walls are made of? I mean, isn't that just dietary fibre, which is good for you because you can't digest it? And then you don't get constipation or bowel cancer?

I dunno; I saw this scare-story on Cracked and secondary-school biology went "hang on a minute..." I may well be misunderstanding it. You are correct. Cellulose is an insoluble fibre, and hence actually has different effects depending on the size of the granules - very finely ground insoluble fibre has a constipating effect, coarse has the opposite. It is partially digested by our intestinal bacteria (which are theorised to help with immunity and keeping 'bad bacteria' out) and we absorb some of the byproducts. I've never actually heard of food being supplemented with cellulose here (I'm a nutrition student in Australia) but I'll do some scrounging around and I'll see what I can find.

What I usually see when I'm out shopping is supplementation with Inulin, Oat Fibre and Psyllium Husks; these all have a higher soluble:insoluble fibre ratio than cellulose (not hard, as Cellulose is all insoluble). Just finished this year's last exam and it sounds more relaxing than frantically trying to memorise public health programs.

[Worira]

Yup, cellulose is a form of dietary fibre. In terms of sinister plots, it's up there with putting vitamin D in milk.

EDIT: No, cellulose is partially soluble. In fact, you say in your post, correctly, that it's partially digested by intestinal bacteria, which is the definition of a soluble fibre.

[Elfinor]

Hrmm... It's actually resistant to digestion:smallannoyed: So it's mostly insoluble. So at least I got the category right:smallbiggrin:

[Worira]

It's resistant to digestion by humans, and somewhat resistant to digestion by bacteria in the large intestine. All dietary fibre is resistant to digestion by humans, though.

[Elfinor]

That's what I meant: it's resistant to colonic fermentation/bacterial digestion. Hence, insoluble.

[Worira]

Except that it's not actually insoluble, it's partially soluble.

[Elfinor]

It's mostly an insoluble fibre. Most fibres are partially digestible, this does not make them all soluble.

The categorisation is based on its nutritional function - it works as an insoluble fibre.

EDIT: Can only find one journal article on the subject. It doesn't say what the source of the cellulose in food is (wood isn't pure cellulose, but I suppose it could be refined). It seems supplementation with cellulose helps improve fecal weight (correlates with reduced colon cancer risk) but only in people who are not constipated - there are other types of fibre that can help there (wheat bran).

Although it does replace some of the food's actual uh... foody content (vitamins, minerals, fat etc.) - I can't really see it being a gigantic issue, unless there's an already existing borderline nutrient deficiency.

[H Birchgrove]

... and somewhere, a mad scientist or a team of corporate scientists is are trying to make a cow that produces beer instead of milk. :smalltongue:

[Asta Kask]

Who told you about the beer project?

[H Birchgrove]

My pet cyborg fly. :smalltongue: (Actually, those do really exist... :smalleek: )

[Gullintanni]

Technically, all the bananas we eat are "genetically modified." The domesticated bananas we eat are an entirely different culinary experience from the ones that grow in the wild.


I just selected banana as an example to illustrate my point. Never mind that it was a particularly poor example, I think it still made my point understandably enough. :smalltongue:

[Tyndmyr]

Tanuki are canines, not simians.

I recently read a book by Michael Pollan called The Omnivore's Dilemma. It really opened my eyes to the horrific conditions at factory farms, and even a lot of "organic" farms. Fun fact: a cow can live in crowded, unhealthy conditions and be force-fed corn (a food it's not evolved to digest) and still be certified organic, as long as it's not fed animal products, antibiotics or non-organic vegetables.

Pollan is a decidedly non-vegetarian journalist writing from the perspective of healthy eating. Books like his, I think, do a lot more for animal rights than PETA's crazy antics and attention-getting tactics. Because of stupid stunts like this, no one takes them seriously. And because no one can take them seriously, they hurt their own - quite admirable - message of preventing cruelty to animals.

Organic has always been a meaningless term. Yes, it's derived from living matter. It's made of MEAT. Alternatively, you could use the other definition...it's made of carbon. Yup. Life on earth is carbon based. Still meaningless.

I have to wonder who first started using it as a label that was somehow supposed to denote higher quality and why they chose it.

It definitely doesn't mean that whatever it was lived a happy, healthy life. Or hell, that it's good for you. Plenty of neurotoxins are organic.

[Gullintanni]

It definitely doesn't mean that whatever it was lived a happy, healthy life. Or hell, that it's good for you. Plenty of neurotoxins are organic.

"When I said "deadly neurotoxin," the "deadly" was in massive sarcasm quotes. I could take a bath in this stuff. Put it on cereal, rub it right into my eyes. Honestly, it's not deadly at all... to *me.* You, on the other hand, are going to find its deadliness... a lot less funny." :smallbiggrin:

[The Succubus]

<GLaDOS>It's your old friend - deadly neurotoxin. </GLaDOS>

[Lord Seth]

... and somewhere, a mad scientist or a team of corporate scientists is are trying to make a cow that produces beer instead of milk. :smalltongue:Walter from Fringe is trying to make a cow produce chocolate milk.

[Tyndmyr]

"When I said "deadly neurotoxin," the "deadly" was in massive sarcasm quotes. I could take a bath in this stuff. Put in on cereal, rub it right into my eyes. Honestly, it's not deadly at all... to *me.* You, on the other hand, are going to find its deadliness... a lot less funny." :smallbiggrin:

Oh, I wasn't even referencing that. Just pointing out that, say, a wild spider's venom is "organically produced" by any sense of the word. That doesn't make it GOOD.

Things like "grass-fed beef" have useful meaning for the consumer. Organic really doesn't.

[H Birchgrove]

What about the nicotine-based insecticides that are possibly the culprit for the mass death of bees in North America? Do those count as "organic" or "ecological" insecticides (in USA)?

[Gitman00]

Organic has always been a meaningless term. Yes, it's derived from living matter. It's made of MEAT. Alternatively, you could use the other definition...it's made of carbon. Yup. Life on earth is carbon based. Still meaningless.

I have to wonder who first started using it as a label that was somehow supposed to denote higher quality and why they chose it.

It definitely doesn't mean that whatever it was lived a happy, healthy life. Or hell, that it's good for you. Plenty of neurotoxins are organic.

The word's history is an interesting one. As you point out, it originally (and still does, in scientific circles) meant a chemical compound that contained carbon. This was because it was originally thought that organic compounds could only come from living creatures, i.e. organs. This has been proven incorrect, but the word stayed around and the definition split: to the scientist, it still meant a carbon compound. To the layman, it meant matter that is or once was alive.

It wasn't until the 1940s that its modern agricultural definition appeared, in a magazine started by J.I. Rodale called Organic Gardening and Farming. The magazine was about growing food without the use of synthetic chemicals, i.e. organically. It's this definition that is meant when you see the organic label on supermarket food.

The problem isn't that the word itself is meaningless; it's that the meaning has been co-opted by corporations who now use it as an advertising gimmick and no longer adhere to the spirit of the organic movement.

[Karoht]

@Organic Food
You pay sometimes twice as much, you have no guarantee that it's actually any better for you to eat.

Meanwhile, going back to chicken, you can tell corn fed chicken from a mile away. The skin is usually a yellow color, the flesh is a yellowy-brown. The grain/grass fed free-range chicken? The skin is nearly a perfect white, the flesh is pink. I'll admit, I shop with my eyes, I'll take the one that looks better or has more visable quality upon inspection. I'm not saying it's the superior way to go or anything, but I find it's a decent method that usually works for me.


Farmers Markets. Good times.

[Gullintanni]

Oh, I wasn't even referencing that.

I'm totally aware of that. You just made me laugh entirely without intending to; and I'm of a mind that accidental comedy via semi-obscure (you know, everywhere BUT these boards) nerd references, ought to be pointed out and congratulated.

Thanks! :smallamused:

[Malachei]

Organic has always been a meaningless term.

Of course not. Just that from a chemist's perspective, it is used differently than from a grocery store owner's perspective, it is not a meaningless term.


It wasn't until the 1940s that its modern agricultural definition appeared, in a magazine started by J.I. Rodale called Organic Gardening and Farming. The magazine was about growing food without the use of synthetic chemicals, i.e. organically. It's this definition that is meant when you see the organic label on supermarket food.

The problem isn't that the word itself is meaningless; it's that the meaning has been co-opted by corporations who now use it as an advertising gimmick and no longer adhere to the spirit of the organic movement.

Yes. So the term, in the sense of food grown without synthetic chemicals, has been around for about 70 years... wow.

I think one issue is that the increasing demand for organic food leads to large corporations adopting it and labeling their products as organic. They may be, legally, but long-term buyers of organic food and the small organic grocery stores are aware that these are different quality levels. And I am sure in the light of this we'll see more and more small-scale organic trade brands, because organic is all about trust.

[Coidzor]

Meanwhile, going back to chicken, you can tell corn fed chicken from a mile away. The skin is usually a yellow color, the flesh is a yellowy-brown. The grain/grass fed free-range chicken? The skin is nearly a perfect white, the flesh is pink.

Weird. So what do they do to the chickens in supermarkets to make their flesh pink then? :smallconfused:

[Tyndmyr]

Of course not. Just that from a chemist's perspective, it is used differently than from a grocery store owner's perspective, it is not a meaningless term.

Not at all. Still meaningless to the consumer.

"grass fed beef" tells you something tangible that will affect what you get. It affects the taste, for one.

"organic" tells you absolutely nothing about the quality of the product. Nor is it at all useful for determining if the animal was raised in a humane fashion. It also tells you nothing about it's safety. It is...without any meaning to you, the consumer.

I view it much akin to when I see "cholesterol-free" labels on vegetable products, but I suppose that could be mildly useful for someone who is unaware that his vegetable lacks a liver.

[Malachei]

It is absolutely not meaningless to the consumer. A lot of consumers actively look for "organic" on their products, because they think it is healthier for them. For them, having no synthetic chemicals in the growing of the food is of actual value. They are willing to pay a price premium for organic food. Whereas organic food was available only in specialized stores some time ago, now even big supermarket chains are devoting (more and more) space in their shops to organic food.

[Gitman00]

Not at all. Still meaningless to the consumer.

"grass fed beef" tells you something tangible that will affect what you get. It affects the taste, for one.

"organic" tells you absolutely nothing about the quality of the product. Nor is it at all useful for determining if the animal was raised in a humane fashion. It also tells you nothing about it's safety. It is...without any meaning to you, the consumer.

I view it much akin to when I see "cholesterol-free" labels on vegetable products, but I suppose that could be mildly useful for someone who is unaware that his vegetable lacks a liver.

This last one cracked me up, because it is so true. xkcd has more on this subject: Free (http://xkcd.com/641/)

[Gullintanni]

It is absolutely not meaningless to the consumer. A lot of consumer actively look for "organic" on their products, because they think it is healthier for them. Whereas organic food was available only in specialized stores some time ago, now even big supermarket chains are devoting (more and more) space in their shops to organic food.

Yeah but even that's deceptive. Organic isn't proven to be any healthier. All it means is that the animal was raised absent the benefits of modern medicine, and that the plant strain in question hasn't be altered in a lab, and was grown without the use of synthetic pesticides.

Organic says nothing about the quality of the food, the living conditions of the animals, or the origin of the plant. It's generally assumed that organic food is of higher quality and that that is exclusively the result of "better", more natural conditions for the plant/animal...but as Tyndmyr said, it doesn't really give you any tangible information about the quality of what you're buying.

As meaningless terms go, this one's pretty close to the mark.

[H Birchgrove]

Ecological bananas and coffee are certainly better than the regular variants, considering the chemicals used to *protect* them, at the cost of the plantation workers' health. :smallfurious:

I'm also happy to not have antibiotics (and hormones) in cattle's fodder, may it be ecological cattle or Swedish cattle. If kids with ear ache can't get antibiotics these days because of the spread of antibiotics resistant bacteria, then cows shouldn't get antibiotics unless they're sick. :smallsigh:

[TheCountAlucard]

Of course not. Just that from a chemist's perspective, it is used differently than from a grocery store owner's perspective, it is not a meaningless term.Just like people who toss around the word "theory." :smallannoyed: Its scientific meaning is vastly different from the general-use version.

[Gullintanni]

Ecological bananas and coffee are certainly better than the regular variants, considering the chemicals used to *protect* them, at the cost of the plantation workers' health. :smallfurious:

I'm also happy to not have antibiotics (and hormones) in cattle's fodder, may it be ecological cattle or Swedish cattle. If kids with ear ache can't get antibiotics these days because of the spread of antibiotics resistant bacteria, then cows shouldn't get antibiotics unless they're sick. :smallsigh:

Yeah but that's really a problem of over-medication and poor safety standards. I'm with you that far, but the solution isn't to go 100% in the other direction...it's to improve safety conditions for banana plantation workers, including working in properly ventilated areas, with oxygen masks and contamination suits if necessary, and to stop flooding livestock "preventive" doses of antibiotics.

Of course, the coffee and banana industries ostensibly use 3rd world labour, and well...having a meaningful discussion about improving those kinds of conditions probably requires breach of some forum rules about real life...so I won't press the subject.

[Karoht]

You want to talk poor standards?
Go to Youma in the USA and see the cornfields.
Yes, Youma is pretty much in the middle of the desert.
Yes, Youma's soil is basically sand.
Yes, nearly all the available sources of water come from wells drilled some 300ft deep and a water table about as low or lower.

My grandparents were down there for the last 2 winters and saw this first hand. They flood the fields with a foot and a half of water at the start of the day. And they let the sun burn it all off, and then they fill it up again.

This is probably the worst agricultural case of trying to fit a round peg in a square hole I can find.

Why they don't grow drought species such as melons, cucumber, zucchini, squash, etc?
No clue. They import them in from mexico though.
/facepalm


I don't know if they do cattle down there, I sincerely hope not for the cow's sake.

@PETA
Hey, PETA. Yeah you. Drop the Mario thing for a minute and go deal with agricultural abuses. Go jump up and down in a supermarket or flashmob a herd of cattle or something.

[Tyndmyr]

It is absolutely not meaningless to the consumer. A lot of consumers actively look for "organic" on their products, because they think it is healthier for them. For them, having no synthetic chemicals in the growing of the food is of actual value. They are willing to pay a price premium for organic food. Whereas organic food was available only in specialized stores some time ago, now even big supermarket chains are devoting (more and more) space in their shops to organic food.

According to double blind studies, it is not.

So, this means that it is not, in fact, meaningful at providing them with what they are looking for.

Another random example. In a SC wal-mart, I went to grab some quaker maple & brown sugar oatmeal. One package was labeled diet, one was not. After looking at them both intently for a while, I determined that they differed only in A. the label, B. Price. Yes, I suppose that as a healthy food, you can consider it diet, but this is an instance where labeling is not at all helpful.

I have a pretty strong dislike of using labeling solely for such purposes...and, to bring this back to PETA...it's not unlike their Sea-kitten campaign.

[LaZodiac]

What do you mean by sea kitten?

[Worira]

You want to talk poor standards?
Go to Youma in the USA and see the cornfields.
Yes, Youma is pretty much in the middle of the desert.
Yes, Youma's soil is basically sand.
Yes, nearly all the available sources of water come from wells drilled some 300ft deep and a water table about as low or lower.

My grandparents were down there for the last 2 winters and saw this first hand. They flood the fields with a foot and a half of water at the start of the day. And they let the sun burn it all off, and then they fill it up again.

This is probably the worst agricultural case of trying to fit a round peg in a square hole I can find.

Why they don't grow drought species such as melons, cucumber, zucchini, squash, etc?
No clue. They import them in from mexico though.
/facepalm




I would imagine it's because the US doesn't have preposterously enormous subsidies for those other crops.

[AtlanteanTroll]

What do you mean by sea kitten?

PETA ran a campaign where they tried to get the term fish replaced with "sea kitten" because they thought people would stop eating them if they changed what they were called.

[H Birchgrove]

PETA ran a campaign where they tried to get the term fish replaced with "sea kitten" because they thought people would stop eating them if they changed what they were called.

*quadruple facepalm* :smallsigh:

Clearly, PETA members' brains could use some of the Omega-3 fatty acids. Though they can get it from seaweed or linseed oil.

Or free-range beef. :smalltongue:

[Traab]

PETA ran a campaign where they tried to get the term fish replaced with "sea kitten" because they thought people would stop eating them if they changed what they were called.

That is the awesomest thing I have ever heard.

[MCerberus]

That is the awesomest thing I have ever heard.

It had a really odd counter-effect though. "People for Eating Tasty Animals" was given a lot of media time during the story.

[Isolder74]

*quadruple facepalm* :smallsigh:

Clearly, PETA members' brains could use some of the Omega-3 fatty acids. Though they can get it from seaweed or linseed oil.

Or free-range beef. :smalltongue:

Facepalm harder. The entire reason they wanted to change the name was that they felt it was a terrible thing that you go fishing to catch fish. You see in their minds it's evil that the way you catch a fish is named the same as a fish. It seems in their minds they fear that they will be promoting fishing if they use the word fish when talking about fish.

[Tebryn]

You want to talk poor standards?
Go to Youma in the USA and see the cornfields.
Yes, Youma is pretty much in the middle of the desert.
Yes, Youma's soil is basically sand.
Yes, nearly all the available sources of water come from wells drilled some 300ft deep and a water table about as low or lower.

My grandparents were down there for the last 2 winters and saw this first hand. They flood the fields with a foot and a half of water at the start of the day. And they let the sun burn it all off, and then they fill it up again.

This is probably the worst agricultural case of trying to fit a round peg in a square hole I can find.

Why they don't grow drought species such as melons, cucumber, zucchini, squash, etc?
No clue. They import them in from mexico though.
/facepalm


I don't know if they do cattle down there, I sincerely hope not for the cow's sake.

I -really- think you mean Yuma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuma,_Arizona).

[H Birchgrove]

Facepalm harder. The entire reason they wanted to change the name was that they felt it was a terrible thing that you go fishing to catch fish. You see in their minds it's evil that the way you catch a fish is named the same as a fish. It seems in their minds they fear that they will be promoting fishing if they use the word fish when talking about fish.

:smallconfused: But calling manatees "sea cows" haven't made me or anyone else that I'm aware of eager to make steaks and hamburgers out of them. (Though they're threatened by other things caused by us eviiiiiil humans, like fast motor boats. :smallfrown: )

[TheStranger]

Man, I really want a manatee hamburger right now. Preferably with bacon, cheddar, and grilled onions.

Admit it, that sounds delicious.

[H Birchgrove]

What's wrong with baby seals? :smallconfused:

:smalltongue:

[TheStranger]

They taste like fish. You really want to eat herbivores or omnivores.

[Malachei]

According to double blind studies, it is not.

Source please. Really. I'd be very interested.


So, this means that it is not, in fact, meaningful at providing them with what they are looking for.

That may be, depending on the validity of the studies.

But that was not what I was saying. Somebody said it was a meaningless term for consumers. And I said that it is not, because an increasing number of people is willing to pay a premium for organic food over non-organic. It may be meaningless for their health, but it is not meaningless to them.

[LaZodiac]

PETA ran a campaign where they tried to get the term fish replaced with "sea kitten" because they thought people would stop eating them if they changed what they were called.

I...there is so many things wrong with that. For one, simply the very starting bad thing, PEOPLE EAT CATFISH. This plan is already impossible.

[TheCountAlucard]

This plan is already impossible.Just more evidence toward my suggestion that their real goal is centered around attention-whoring.

[Mystic Muse]

I...there is so many things wrong with that. For one, simply the very starting bad thing, PEOPLE EAT CATFISH. This plan is already impossible.

MMMmmmm. Fried Catfish is delicious.

[Ravens_cry]

MMMmmmm. Fried Catfish is delicious.
What does it taste like compared to, say, trout?
Because fresh, pan fried rainbow trout you caught yourself not an hour ago is beyond superlative.

[Mystic Muse]

What does it taste like compared to, say, trout?
Because fresh, pan fried rainbow trout you caught yourself not an hour ago is beyond superlative.

Never had it. I've only had Deep Fried Catfish among fish I consider worth mentioning.

Never liked Salmon or Tuna, though I'm pretty darn picky.

[Ravens_cry]

I've never had Tuna outside the can, so I can't really comment on its real taste, but salmon generally is very different from other fish in flavour, though I personally like it.
Except tinned, it's awful tinned.

[THAC0]

Never had it. I've only had Deep Fried Catfish among fish I consider worth mentioning.

Never liked Salmon or Tuna, though I'm pretty darn picky.

Have you had GOOD salmon or tuna? Not that farmed or canned stuff...

Fresh coho, just pulled out of the water by yourself, grilled with salt and pepper... tastes like king crab!

[Mystic Muse]

Have you had GOOD salmon or tuna? Not that farmed or canned stuff...

Fresh coho, just pulled out of the water by yourself, grilled with salt and pepper... tastes like king crab!

No I have not. I live in "The Middle of Nowhere" Indiana. The closest place with decent fishing is probably Lake Michigan. That is, if I could fish worth a damn, which I can't.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Once, my sister was canoeing in BC, when a fishing boat pulled up next to the canoe, and the fisher explained he had accidentally caught a few Coho Salmon that he wasn't allowed to. So, he gave them 2, I think big salmons.
My sister and her mates were so hungry, they ate half a salmon before they could get a fire going to roast delicious salmon-steaks. She says salmon, barely an hour out of the sea, raw, was the tastiest thing she's ever eaten.

[Traab]

Im not a fan of trout, if only due to the sheer number of nearly invisible bones that wind up in whatever you make of it. I LOVE sword sea kitten steaks. Soak them in a marinade, (any of a dozen types is great) then cook them on the grill. Oh god is it tasty. Tilapia is nice too. The Costco in my hometown sells breaded tilapia fillets that are just a really nice and easy meal to make. Add a little lemon after its done cooking and its just nummy.

[TheCountAlucard]

I see what you did there. :smallamused:

[The Giant]

Since PETA (and their goals) are inherently political in nature, discussing them on this message board is a political discussion and therefore not allowed by the Rules of Posting.

Thread locked.