Combining Schools

[dextercorvia]

Continued from this thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222548)


Evocation is too narrow a school. I whole heartedly support combining it with Abjuration, as they have a surprising amount of fluff overlap. It wouldn't hurt for Evocation to have some more status effects, although, it already has my favorite 2nd level save vs. daze. More like that would help its viability.


The thing is, of course, that Evocation COULD be a lot better. "Shaping raw magic into stuff" is a pretty great school in concept, and spells like Mage Armour (Transmutation IIRC) really should be Evocation spells. Wouldn't say no to Evocation blasts doing d8 instead of d6 damage, and later d10 damage.


And my point is not that Conjuration shouldn't have blast damage dealing spells, but that the ones that it does have make no sense. It shouldn't have them because the designers demonstrated time and again their own lack of understanding of core rules.

I do like Evocation being combined with Abjuration thought. And Necromancy could be Life and Death, gaining Cures and resurrect spells. Name it something else though... "death magic" doesn't leave much to the imagination.


Indeed, unfortunately there's a horrible trap is where Evocation becomes equated with blasting.

And blasting is boring.



I can't confirm it, due to me first getting into D&D in 3.5, but I'm told that in 2e, Necromancy did cover healing magic as well. If I remember right, the change was made when they hit 3e.


Healing and resurrection magic did indeed always fall under necromancy. For some reason, it was changed for 3rd ed.


This had the unfortunate side-effect of forcing the White Necromancer archtype to specialize in a school that isn't Necromancy. False Life, etc. only goes so far. Splats helped a little, but, for me this is one of the wedges between fluff and crunch that 3.5 really drove in.

Agreeing with Coidizor, Evocation doesn't really need to blast better. It doesn't make sense that the shaped raw magic school would get to bypass SR, eg. Expanding force based BFC, and status effects, and/or combining with Abjuration goes a long way to repairing the school's reputation. However, it isn't as bad of a school as it gets a reputation for. I have to think twice about dropping it at low or high levels. Enchantment is much easier for me to drop. Enchantment should probably be split between Divination and Illusion.

Reducing the number of schools would also make Focused Specialist more painful.


This is bad?


No, I intended it as a plus side, and a reason to do this. I guess I never actually said.


Well, there are a number of spells that it's the wizards' job to bring to the table so the game can function and the people he's babysitting survive that aren't universal or divination, so there'd be something unpleasant for the other players if more of the wizard's shtick were cut off by focused specialist.

How likely it is that the other players aren't already going to be taking classes to pick up the slack in games where someone will be a focused specialist rather than being forced into it by the wizard's player's choice to double specialize, I dunno.



I think it would encourage more players to play casters, to balance out what a specific one is missing. That would ease game play, as they would naturally be closer in Tier.... Except for the one guy that would still play a TWF fighter.

If the schools are:

Conjuration
Transmutation
Illusion (and distracting Enchantments like Confusion)
Divination (and mind control Enchantments like Charm Person)
Evocation (including Abjuration)
Necromancy

And a Focused specialist has to give up 3 of them, that is going to put him quite a bit closer to low T1/very high T2. Even if we allow barring Divination, going Incantatrix is going to hurt for a FS.

[Tenno Seremel]

Divination (and mind control Enchantments like Charm Person)
I'd like to have some in-game explanation from a wizard how that works (O.o) IMO Enchantment should remain. If it is perceived as too narrow it should be redefined/expanded (as in "enchant" ≠ enchanting minds only).

[jaybird]

Hmm...I wonder about using single school caster lists to determine the schools. In other words, if a set caster can function with just that one school and a few backups (such as DimDoor for Warmage), then it's a well designed school.

Beguiler naturally combines Enchantment and Illusion, while Necromancy is wide enough that Dread Necromancer is good with just those spells. Warmage needs blasting, control, and protection, so Evocation and Abjuration combined would be fine, with a buff to Evocation's blasts. Similarly with a hypothetical Tramsmutation (Thaumaturgist?) and Conjuration (Iunno...), they're good enough to function on the basis of single school lists. Divination is a larger problem...mind controlling Enchantments don't really fit into the theme of the school, and a single school caster of Divination would be significantly more dependent on the GM for his abilities compared to other single school casters.

I wonder if we couldn't split up Divination spells that fit into the other schools, then put all the remaining spells in the Universal school...

[Lapak]

If the schools are:

Conjuration
Transmutation
Illusion (and distracting Enchantments like Confusion)
Divination (and mind control Enchantments like Charm Person)
Evocation (including Abjuration)
NecromancyI like the idea a lot. To simplify things and keep from having to decide on a spell-by-spell basis, I'd say instead:

Conjuration
Transmutation
Illusion (combine Illusion and Enchantment)
Evocation (combine Evocation and Abjuration)
Necromancy (combine Necromancy and Divination)

This folds Enchantment entirely into Illusion, putting all the mind-affecting spells in one place. Combining Necromancy and Divination makes for a solid school, once that might really hurt to drop. And it can also make sense fluff-wise. Both can be seen as ways of contacting other layers of existence and imposing them on the material world: the realm of the dead, the realm of the gods, and possible future-states of the material world can all be seen in a similar light.

[Venger]

Conjuration
Transmutation
Illusion (and distracting Enchantments like Confusion)
Divination (and mind control Enchantments like Charm Person)
Evocation (including Abjuration)
Necromancy

I always thought illusion/enchantment were too specialised which leads to them often being banned by players who actually listen to Wotc about how to build characters (read: fireball all day erryday) and if we were merging schools, I would suggest merging enchantment/illusion like psionics did with the telepathy discipline.

Conjuration
Transmutation
Illusion (including Enchantment)
Divination
Evocation (including Abjuration)
Necromancy (including all healing, revivification, resurrection, heal etc. effects)

it always ticked me off that some spells reviving the dead (revive undead, animate dead, preserve organ, heal, etc) are necromancy, like they should be, but all the cures are conjuration. are the inflicts conjuration? no, they're necro. why are the cures/healing conj? that just makes it easier to ban necromancy because necro is too specialised and too many of its spells offer saves, like enchantment/illusion

with only 6 schools of magic, would banning divination theoretically be allowed? I always hated divination, especially that you couldn't ban it. it's only not entirely worthless in games where your DM is both prepared enough to write material in advance and adult enough to tell you story info before he planned on doling it out to you. otherwise is just collects dust

[Ziegander]

I wonder if we couldn't split up Divination spells that fit into the other schools, then put all the remaining spells in the Universal school...

I'm not sure how that would work out, but it's not a bad thought anyway.

Conjuration is limited to Calling, Creation, Summoning, and Teleportation. Conjuration also picks up Shadow effects (except that Shadow Evocation and Shades type effects no longer exist).

Transmutation remains as is (doubtless now, the most powerful school).

Illusion and Enchantment are combined into a single school that handles Charms, Compulsions, Figments, and Impressions (something akin to both patterns and phantasms). Call the school Mentalism.

Evocation and Abjuration are combined into a single school. This school handles the manipulation of forces as well as all energy except for Acid, Positive, and Negative? This school should also pick up things like Color Spray, probably even effects similar to Hypnotic Pattern, because they manipulate light to achieve an effect, and do not directly manipulate the mind.

Necromancy (renamed Sangromancy?) takes control of all positive energy and negative energy effects, gaining Cures, Heal, Raise Dead, etc.

Finally, Divination... it is really powerful, but now stands even further away from the rest of the schools.

[dextercorvia]

I'd like to have some in-game explanation from a wizard how that works (O.o) IMO Enchantment should remain. If it is perceived as too narrow it should be redefined/expanded (as in "enchant" ≠ enchanting minds only).

I would probably call it Mentalism. Detecting thoughts and modifying them are thematically linked in Fantasy lit.



Necromancy (including all healing, revivification, resurrection, heal etc. effects)

it always ticked me off that some spells reviving the dead (revive undead, animate dead, preserve organ, heal, etc) are necromancy, like they should be, but all the cures are conjuration. are the inflicts conjuration? no, they're necro. why are the cures/healing conj? that just makes it easier to ban necromancy because necro is too specialised and too many of its spells offer saves, like enchantment/illusion

I almost mentioned this earlier, but I was talking about the Wizard, who doesn't really care about healing/reviving etc.



with only 6 schools of magic, would banning divination theoretically be allowed? I always hated divination, especially that you couldn't ban it. it's only not entirely worthless in games where your DM is both prepared enough to write material in advance and adult enough to tell you story info before he planned on doling it out to you. otherwise is just collects dust

I'm leaning toward saying that Divination could be banned in this system, but only if it picks up extra spells to make it really hurt. That was why I included half of Enchantment in there. I would also make a Diviner choose the same number of barred schools as other specialists.

[MukkTB]

Conjuration
Transmutation
Illusion (combine Illusion and Enchantment)
Evocation (combine Evocation and Abjuration)
Necromancy (combine Necromancy and Divination)
/win

Fluff wise in the past necromancy used to mean contacting the dead to get information.

[Tenno Seremel]

I would probably call it Mentalism. Detecting thoughts and modifying them are thematically linked in Fantasy lit.

Detecting thought might be, but divining in general is not Mentalism. Detect thoughts is even mind-affecting which means it is even more odd for it to be divination. I think detect thoughts effect is Telepathy while Divination is more of Clairsentience. It's just Enchantment school is… narrow as is.

[erikun]

Is the idea to create less schools, all with roughly the same grade of versatility, or to combine schools for thematic reasons? Because while Shield does make sense as an Abjuration and Evocation spell, Fireball makes no sense as an Abjuration and Magic Circle against Evil isn't much of an Evocation.

I am also not sure quite what you mean by making them "naturally be closer in Tier" either. Even a Focused Evoker/Master Specialist was hardly as limited as a Warmage, and all this variant would do would be to make them even more so. Rather than having an Evoker which keeps Illusion, one who keeps Abjuration, and one who keeps Transmutation, you are forcing them all to keep Abjuration and toss out the rest.

Also note that if an Evoker is feeling weak due to their blasting spells under-performing at their level, allowing them to cast Protection from Arrows or Dispel Magic from their specialist spell slots is not going to help the problem any.

Necromancer-Wizards would suck even more now, as the "swap healing into Necromancy" doesn't matter one bit to them, and they must cut even more spells now to specialize.

[Treblain]

I never understood why schools even apply to clerics. What does it matter how skilled you are with a specific school of magic when all your spells are miracles given by the gods? Does your study of Spell Focus in Enchantment make you pray harder?

[dextercorvia]

Could we just roll Divination into Universal, and all of Enchantment into Illusion (now Mentalism)? That leaves Necromancy rather lacking, but except for a few spells, I don't really see Divination fitting into Necromancy.

That would drop us to five schools:

Conjuration
Transmutation
Evocation
Mentalism
Necromancy

[Tenno Seremel]

I never understood why schools even apply to clerics. What does it matter how skilled you are with a specific school of magic when all your spells are miracles given by the gods? Does your study of Spell Focus in Enchantment make you pray harder?

You are more in tune with that aspect of your god perhaps.

[dextercorvia]

Is the idea to create less schools, all with roughly the same grade of versatility, or to combine schools for thematic reasons? Because while Shield does make sense as an Abjuration and Evocation spell, Fireball makes no sense as an Abjuration and Magic Circle against Evil isn't much of an Evocation.

I am also not sure quite what you mean by making them "naturally be closer in Tier" either. Even a Focused Evoker/Master Specialist was hardly as limited as a Warmage, and all this variant would do would be to make them even more so. Rather than having an Evoker which keeps Illusion, one who keeps Abjuration, and one who keeps Transmutation, you are forcing them all to keep Abjuration and toss out the rest.

Also note that if an Evoker is feeling weak due to their blasting spells under-performing at their level, allowing them to cast Protection from Arrows or Dispel Magic from their specialist spell slots is not going to help the problem any.

Necromancer-Wizards would suck even more now, as the "swap healing into Necromancy" doesn't matter one bit to them, and they must cut even more spells now to specialize.

Both really. Abjuration and Evocation are both use raw magic to do stuff. Magic circle is an Evocation style effect -- it is only classified as Abjuration because it is protective. Think of Evocation/Abjuration (current definitions) as black/white aspects of Evocation (redefined)

This isn't meant to encourage more Evokers, but to make Specialist Conjurers and Transmuters (especially focused specialists) pay for the power of their school with actually reduced versatility.

With 5 schools, a FS Conjurer can keep one other school + Universal. That is probably still (barely) T1.

[Ziegander]

Necromancer-Wizards would suck even more now, as the "swap healing into Necromancy" doesn't matter one bit to them, and they must cut even more spells now to specialize.

Well, it would be my solution to place the healing into the Wizard's Necromancy spell list.

[Hirax]

I agree with merging abjuration/evocation, illusion/enchantment, and moving all healing spells to necro. I say leave divination alone though, even though with the mergers it would become by far the tiniest school, it's distinct enough that it's justifiable. If you must get rid of it I'd opt for making divination spells universal spells instead of school spells, to match the current setup of not being able to ban divination. Otherwise I think it would fit in with the newly merged enchantment/illusion schools. Due to enchantment, illusion, and divination being the smallest schools, that merger might still not result in the biggest school.

[erikun]

Both really. Abjuration and Evocation are both use raw magic to do stuff. Magic circle is an Evocation style effect -- it is only classified as Abjuration because it is protective. Think of Evocation/Abjuration (current definitions) as black/white aspects of Evocation (redefined)

This isn't meant to encourage more Evokers, but to make Specialist Conjurers and Transmuters (especially focused specialists) pay for the power of their school with actually reduced versatility.

With 5 schools, a FS Conjurer can keep one other school + Universal. That is probably still (barely) T1.
By that logic, Necromancy should just be broken up into other schools: Blasty necromancy moves into Evocation for throwing around raw magic, undead creation moves into Transmutation for making things, and undead summoning moves into Conjuration for conjuring things.

I am not seeing the Focused Specialist or Master Specialist very limited, especially one could still have all transmutation + conjuration + divination spells. (The only significant thing they loose from now is shadow illusions.) A Focused Conjurer/Master Specialist would run into limits, but with this system, that would simply not be a good idea.

In no way would they run into enough restrictions to become "barely T1". The base Wizard, with all spell access, is still in the higher T1 tier.

[Lapak]

By that logic, Necromancy should just be broken up into other schools: Blasty necromancy moves into Evocation for throwing around raw magic, undead creation moves into Transmutation for making things, and undead summoning moves into Conjuration for conjuring things.Nah. Blasty necromancy involves drawing life-energy out of things, not throwing raw magic AT them. Creating undead involves pushing life-energy into things that don't have it.
I am not seeing the Focused Specialist or Master Specialist very limited, especially one could still have all transmutation + conjuration + divination spells. (The only significant thing they loose from now is shadow illusions.) A Focused Conjurer/Master Specialist would run into limits, but with this system, that would simply not be a good idea.That's why I suggested folding Divination into Necromancy. Divination is under-rated; dropping it hurts. Folding it into Necromancy means that the Focused/Master Conjurer would have to choose between Transmutation and Necromancy/Divination. That's a painful choice: Time Stop or Foresight? Flying or Scrying? Or keep both, but lose instantaneous conjurations and teleports?

[Venger]

Could we just roll Divination into Universal, and all of Enchantment into Illusion (now Mentalism)? That leaves Necromancy rather lacking, but except for a few spells, I don't really see Divination fitting into Necromancy.

That would drop us to five schools:

Conjuration
Transmutation
Evocation
Mentalism
Necromancy

beat me to it. glad you like the illusion/enchantment fusion thing. I was going to suggest we merge divination with universal (they can't be banned? aren't they universal then?)

I only suggested moving all healing into necro because that way you can't leave it behind without losing healing, but I forgot that wizards do not cast cures. too many months spend playing a chameleon, I forget everyone else only has one list. my b.

I still don't get how anyone could ban necro anyway. that's where animate dead is!

[dextercorvia]

Necromancy is my second to drop school (usually) -- the first being Enchantment. If I want a darker feel, then I'll keep it.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Personally, I would rather keep Divination. If you're determined to be rid of it, just partition its spells-- most of them would land in Mentalism, Conjuration, or Necromancy. A handful of really basic Divinations could end up in Universal.

[Venger]

Necromancy is my second to drop school (usually) -- the first being Enchantment. If I want a darker feel, then I'll keep it.

enchantment has the fewest spells, so it's everyone's first school to drop. transmutation has the most so no one ever drops it

[dextercorvia]

enchantment has the fewest spells, so it's everyone's first school to drop. transmutation has the most so no one ever drops it

It also has to do with the caliber of spell in each. Enchantment has zero non-mind affecting spells, and they nearly all require a will save. I can target will saves with more universal spells from other schools. It is a force multiplier when it works. Transmutation has a number of just awesomely versatile spells, and buffs like haste, that you know will always be useful.

Shoot, now I want to playtest these rules.