[3.5] Gestalt based on the Tier

[Adamantrue]

I'm running my first Gestalt game, which has let me play around with other options. I've limited it so that A Tier 4 can Gestalt with Tier 5, and Tier 3 can Gestalt with Tier 6. Note that we're not fans of Psionics, but that still leaves a lot of Classes to choose from.

I started doing a work-up of the Tier 4-5 combinations, so I can prioritize some work I wanna do as a DM (basically setting up Custom Classes on the Excel-based TheOnlySheet (http://theonlysheet.com/homepage/)), and a few combinations kinda stuck my fancy.

Monk-Ranger: The basic chassis is pretty nice, with Ability Score synergy & picking up each other's slack (especially with some ACFs). Arcane Hunter (CM) & Trap Expert (DS) along with some Evasion alternatives for one side of the Gestalt make for some cool options. Focused on Archery Combat on the Ranger side, you got a Full BAB Flurry once it moves into melee, and with the Monk speed you really choose the range of the encounters.

Paladin-Marshal or Knight-Marshal: Again with the Ability Score synergy, but there is an interesting compatibility with the fluff VS the crunch. Marshal has some abilities I really like, but the flavor always seemed a bit lackluster in and of itself. The Paladin & Knight seemed inherently interesting from the roleplaying perspective, but their abilities were just too limited.

Paladin-Barbarian: With a Paladin of Freedom or a Paladin of Slaughter, you can get around alignment restrictions, making this an option. I'm really thinking an Intimidating Rage-Imperious Command-Never Outnumbered combination would be even more brutal on a frame that could get that much more out of Charisma. I wanna take a better look at all the ACFs available, as superficially this doesn't get as much out of the Gestalt as the others.

Fighter-Rogue: Sneak Attack, Evasion, and Uncanny Dodge are noticeable additions to combat options, but the real perk is the options outside combat, the only real failure of the Fighter. Its pretty basic, but its solid, with a lot of options for customization.

So...are there any combinations of Tier 4-5 Gestalts I should make a point to check out, besides the ones I just mentioned (one some that I should specifically avoid despite superficial impressions)? I know there was a similar thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220411) a few weeks ago, but this a little more limited & focused (so a lot of those suggestions aren't an option).

[docnessuno]

Rogue - Swashbuckler
Barbarian - Soulknife
Warlock - Ninja

[Psyren]

Warlock - Ninja

Scout is better here, especially if you can get Flyby Attack.

[docnessuno]

Scout is better here, especially if you can get Flyby Attack.

True, but warlock and scout are both tier 4, and OP requested 4+5 combinations. also the Warlock has easy invisibility access, taking sudden strike from horrible to decent.

Also: Warlock-Fighter and Warlock-Swashbuckler with eldritch glaive

[Hunter Noventa]

I'm not sure what tiers they are, but Warlock and Spellthief have good synergy, depending on your opponents. Invisible + Eldritch Blast Sneak Attack = Stealing spells with lasers from 30ft away.

[Gnaeus]

Generally, you want a class that can give you access to high level powers/effects on one side. Soo.....

Warmage,
Healer,
Warlock
Adept

Any combo with one of those will likely be stronger than any combo lacking one of those.
Warmage is the winner, since it is clearly tier 4, but as an arcane full casting class it is not difficult to expand its spell list with feats or PRCs.

Healer has a crummy spell list, but being able to cure status conditions doesn't suck, tier 4-5s may be weak enough that even in combat healing is viable, free unicorn, and ultimately Gate. He can also use exalted spells or get items or feats that use his spell slots.

Warlock has a lot of utility, like flight and invisibility. Also, the best item crafter in that range.

Adepts aren't full casters, but their very limited list includes gems like Animate Dead, Polymorph, Heal and True Seeing.

Couple any of those 4 with a melee or skillmonkey or defensive class with decent attribute synergy and you have a winner.

[hex0]

Dread Necromancer/CW Samurai wouldn't be too horrible. Scare the crap out of people.

Factotum/Truenamer, anyone?

For 4/5, I'd do Warmage/Rokugan Ninja. That would be pretty tight if you can spell sneak attack people, and hey! Full BAB.

[gorfnab]

Paladin // Dragon Shaman is not too shabby for a party leader and mini heal bot

[deuxhero]

Paladin of Freedom//Barbarian is good with the right ACFs (Chargin smite, mystic fire knight and the Barbarian ACF that trades fast movement for pounce).

[Gnaeus]

Paladin // Dragon Shaman is not too shabby for a party leader and mini heal bot

Paladin//dragon Shaman is ok thematically but very weak. Paladin is a primarily defensive class, which is good in gestalt when pared with something with strong actions. Dragon Shaman is a very passive class, which is good in gestalt when pared with something with powerful actions. Thematically, they work together ok. In practice you want to pair either one with an active class. Preferably a full or half caster, but if not then a damage dealer like Rogue or Barbarian.

[Novawurmson]

I'm not sure what tiers they are

Tier system for classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0)

Why each class is in its tier (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5070.0)

[Adamantrue]

I'm digging the Ninja (CA)-Warlock combination, after taking a good look at some of the possibilities. Cha, Wis, and Dex would have to be the focus, but you do get a lot of complimentary abilities that can play around with a more fantastic, myth-inspired archetype.

Monk-Adept seems like it could be a good match, with enough Ability Score synergy to make it work. Paladin-Adept would probably work better, but I personally am not really a fan of the idea of juggling two Spell Lists.

Swashbuckler-Warmage might work well for my games, providing a Musketeer feel in a world without gunpowder (and I like playing Charismatic Swashbucklers). Knight-Warmage or Paladin-Warmage might work better, but Swashbuckler just seems a more comfortable fit.

Healer-Warmage would provide a ridiculous amount of Spells in completely opposite directions, and strangely may prove to be the powerhouse of the format (though again, I don't like the idea of two Spell Lists). Healer-Warlock would also be a strong contender, and with a non-Vancian approach on half of the Gestalt it would probably be preferred.

Swashbuckler-Rogue may be a little more interesting than Fighter-Rogue. It has the potential to be flashier (always a plus), but I'm not sure if it would be functionally any better. Perhaps Swashbuckler-Scout, which would have a different approach and feel entirely. There has to be a way to get a Swift & Deadly (DotU) to trigger Skirmish well before your attack routine ends.

[Gnaeus]

Swashbuckler-Rogue may be a little more interesting than Fighter-Rogue. It has the potential to be flashier (always a plus), but I'm not sure if it would be functionally any better. Perhaps Swashbuckler-Scout, which would have a different approach and feel entirely. There has to be a way to get a Swift & Deadly (DotU) to trigger Skirmish well before your attack routine ends.

Swashbuckler is almost always weaker than Fighter in any build, except for 3 level dips to get int to damage (which still usually isn't worth it) or for Daring Outlaw. Gestalt doesn't really specify how those dual progression feats work in gestalt. If you CAN use daring outlaw, something like Swashbuckler 20//rogue3/scout 17 could be decent, along with its brother Ranger 20//Scout 3/Rogue 17 with swift hunter.

[Emperor Tippy]

Factotum 19/Exemplar 1//Monk 18/Mindbender 1/Swordsage 1 using the options to move monk abilities to Int could be nifty with the right feat selection. Especially if you VoP Chaos Shuffle to pick up the extra 12 feats.

Use Braces of Armor +1 loaded down with all of the armor enhancements you need and then just cast Greater Mage Armor (possibly from an eternal wand) for +6. Then you get your Int to AC on top of that.

Offensively, you are going to be making a lot of use out of your Cunning Strike, and Cunning Insight abilities. Iaijutsu Focus could also help with damage. Pick up one of the dodge variants, pay the 6K for mobility, and then grab spring attack to take advantage of your speed.

For something extra nifty, use feats before your sword sage level to pick up One With Shadow, Shadow Blink, and Balance on the Sky then trade them for crappier maneuvers right before you level up to get SS. Once you get the SS level you reselect the good maneuvers that you want and then trade the crappier ones you spent feats on away for more Font of Inspiration.

Some feats you should have: Darkstalker, Craven, Quick Reconnoiter, Kung Fu Genius.

Will you be remotely as impressive as you could be? No.

Will you still be able to contribute consistently, have a great time playing around, and be quite versatile? Yes. You will more than cover the assassin, spy, scout, skill monkey, and skirmisher rolls. You will get screwed damage wise when facing sneak attack immune foes (which is why you have the weapon crystals for at least half damage) but otherwise you will be able to put out the damage.

Grab Extend Spell and Persistent spell along with the wand grip that lets you burn extra charges to apply meta you know to a wand's spell and for 9 charges you can persist various nifty spells (Wraithstrike comes to mind).

[Adamantrue]

While that may be kinda cool, it is beyond the scope of the Tier Limits I mentioned at the beginning.
Swashbuckler is almost always weaker than Fighter in any build, except for 3 level dips to get int to damage (which still usually isn't worth it) or for Daring Outlaw. Gestalt doesn't really specify how those dual progression feats work in gestalt. If you CAN use daring outlaw, something like Swashbuckler 20//rogue3/scout 17 could be decent, along with its brother Ranger 20//Scout 3/Rogue 17 with swift hunter. One of the Homebrew ACFs I have for the Swashbuckler is trading out Improved Flanking for Pounce (based on the ACFs a Barbarian has from Complete Champion). A TWF build with Pounce wouldn't be horrible, or something a Fighter can easily replicate, and along with Skirmish it could rock. I'd prefer to have another alternative available, which is why I'm wondering about options with Swift & Deadly (though sadly, I'm not seeing it).