[3.5] - Virgin DM, Party of 5. Advice? [updated 11/21/11]

[killem2]

Hey there.

I've played D&D in the past, though not for almost 11 years now. I stopped with 2.0 just a little bit of 3.0. My buddies who play Magic:The Gathering, one day just suggested it, and so we're going to do it.

We're using 3.5. Now, I'm a pretty lax guy, I have not been a DM before so, for me to be a hard ass right off the bat just doesn't make sense and I don't really see the point.

I wanted really just any general advice based on the party make up and what I allowed upon character creation. I used the 5d6 drop bottom 2 rolls, but with a slight errata to the "high powered character paragraph in the book". I told them they would reroll any stat that would leave that a score of less than 10 after a racial, and dropped the make sure everyone has a +2 bonus thing")

Overall, its not really too insane. We have a guy with and 18 str and 20 dex (racial helped) and he's going to be a fighter, but aside from him, we're all pretty much hanging around the mid to high teens with a few stats with no bonus (but no penalty either)

I'm also allowing everyone to go into a prestige class (as that would be fun to make adventures for to unlock the initial level and go from there):

Gnome Illusionist -> Master Specialist
Halfling Rogue -> Master Thrower into a later (Invisible Blade)
Elf Fighter -> Order of the Bow Initiate
Elf Monk -> Tatoo Monk (tiger)
Dwarf Cleric -> Hammer of Moradin

So over all, well rounded group. I've already started by making sure they all made there characters with out knowing what they others have. (sure I know, but I have willpower lol)

Any big advice I should know, any shortcuts I should take, any tables I should tatoo onto my forearms lol.

btw, I really am glad I found a non -wotc forum.

[Aegis013]

Welcome to GiantinthePlayground.

The number one thing is to talk to your players out-of-game. Make sure they understand what kind of game you want this to be and make sure they're happy to play in that kind of game. If all of the players aren't happy, with something, it's probably better to bend it so everybody can enjoy the game.

Nothing there looks particularly powerful compared to the others with the exception of the Wizard depending on what he's doing. That's not the player or his choice of PrC btw, it's just... Wizards be crazy.

As far as tables, the XP table and the Treasure by encounter tables are ones I reference frequently (both in the DMG) for DM'ing, but for the most part, you can get away with very little table maintenance.

I would jot down some random names and personality quirks so you can random generate NPCs quickly as needed (like, roll a d4 and a d20 and the d4 provides a gender, set up however you want, and the d20 provides a personality quirk, from a table you make up) This can help you not stumble around and think of what or who would be in this house. Or whatever the situation at hand might be.

You seem to be off to a decent start, so good luck, have fun!

[killem2]

Thanks for the advice. The gnome is actually me haha. I usually play a wizard when I played back in the day but we never made it far enough to do anything really cool. I wanted to try a specialist this time as I usually ALWAYS go for he big flash damage stuff. Not to say I DON'T want that, but since we have such a diverse group (that I was ok with them know as far as class just not skills and feats) I figured for once, I can actually try the crowd control variant of a wizard.

The npc on the fly generator is a fantastic Idea, as I'm good at coming up with large scale things but I fear my move to move in a town type situation may be crappy.

We def talk out of game, we are cool with each other and play magic the gathering nearly twice a month for hours on end so we respect each other in the gaming field.

Do you know if they made tables for things such as "attacks of opportunity"? It seems like if you sneeze the wrong way, everyone and their mother gets an AoO. LOL.

[Morph Bark]

Welcome to GitP!

First off, are you both DMing and playing the gnome at the same time? In general, it is advised against doing so (unless you use a rotating DM), as the DMPC can end up stealing the spotlight, which makes the players feel inadequate or left behind.

Also, how experienced are the players? If they are more experienced with 3.5 they are more likely to know ways to optimize (especially if they visit DnD forums). If there is a difference in experience level, it's generally nothing to worry too much about, but if they are playing the spellcasters of the party, then you should beware and ask them to tone it down.

Have you heard of JaronK's Tier system?

[killem2]

The cleric and rogue are the same person, he's by far extremely experienced he played with a group 3 times the size of ours back in florida before he moved back to iowa so he's really helpful.

I am playing the gnome and dming, I'm actually fairly confident I'll be able to keep the action pretty heavy in their corner so much so that all I really need to do is get us to meet up and I can hang back and sling spells.

I have not heard of that system myself, no. What is it?

[Morph Bark]

Tier system for base classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=bc18425e5fa73d30e4a9a54889edf4 4e&topic=1002.0)
Why each class is in its tier (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5256.0)
Tier system for PrCs (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0)

Are the Fighter and Monk also being played by the same person?

[killem2]

No, the monk and fighter are two people. See, the fighter came later on, (we hadn't started yet) so out of fear of only have 3 classes, the cleric rolled a rogue as well, and since we already had them all setup ready to go, and I didn't mind, we would have the fighter join as well.

So really the only person with two is the cleric and he's the one that knows alot about the game and he's a good guy and level headed He just wanted a rogue to really push the RP envelope with rather than the uberness scale with :)

The uber scale is left to the monk and fighter that's their kinda thing haha.

[killem2]

Update: We've scheduled our first session on Dec 11th, so I have a fair amount of time to get enough content started for us! It'll be about a 6-7 hour gaming session (give or take 30 mins).

I do have some more concerns. Primarily the race breakdown. I am fairly sure I can throw the two elf pc together in the same general regional. Perhaps not the same town but on my map I have a forest called Elfhollow Woods. So I think I can make the Monk and the Fighter come from that area.

The Dwarf Cleric and the Halfing rogue, I think I can bring together through just dumb luck. I plan to make the cleric start off in his quest to be a Hammer of Moradin. (obv, he's way off from that at level 1, but I can build the RP ground works ahead of time) In this quest, I thought I would have him run into the halfling who is badly hurt and about to get jumped by some goblins or something.

My Character the Gnome Illusionist I can easily just throw into the mix as he has left his arcane academy by request of the master order as a requirement for all new wizards to test what they have learned.

I have attempted to make it some way easy on myself (as the dm), and put the starting home of the cleric (Moradin), and the elves (elfhollow woods) and the gnome (city to yet be named) all within 10-12 mile triangle (assuming 1/2 inch = 1 mile on my map).

I have the current map drawn out on 1 8.5x11 sheet of cardstock and I plan to just add on to that as we finish each section. Eventually all of these (sections) can be put next to each other to show the entire world.

So, with a Fighter who wants to become an Order of the Bow, a monk who wants to become a Tatooed monk (tiger), the cleric who wants to become a hammer of moradin, the rogue who wants to become am invisblade/master thrower, and me the wizard who is keeping it simple and going master specialist.....

What's an easy way to really get us together, with out it looking obvious?

[Quietus]

On the tier system : With everyone fairly new to the game, that'll matter a lot less. Do watch out for one player showing up the others constantly, but with low optimization, it'll depend largely on stats and luck more than anything.

On the DMPC : Be careful. Be very, very careful. There's a reason many of us would like to set DMPC's on fire; they are very difficult to do well, and it's far too easy to set yourself up to look really good. Any time the DMPC gets the spotlight is time your players DON'T have it, and that's not a good thing.

In general : Play it loose, have fun, and try to avoid saying no. The "Yes, but" or "Yes, and" rule should be in effect - instead of saying "No, you can't do X", try and say "Yes, but it will be very difficult and require XYZ".

Whenever you want your players to find a clue, make sure you have at least three ways for them to find it - and that none of them involve your gnome. Rather than leaving the secret note explaining the plot in one guy's desk (the players might not look there, or might not roll high enough on search to find it), you can have the note in the guy's desk, you can have enemies know things that can be diplomacied/beaten out of them, you can have mooks complaining loudly about how crappy this plan is when your party scout makes a good listen check. Always assume they'll miss the first clue, and ignore the second, before finding the third. This is known as the Three Clue Rule (http://thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/three-clue-rule.html). Doing this helps avoid railroading, though there'll be a certain amount assumed given that you're fresh to DMing.

Overall, though, just don't sweat the little things. Kick back, have a good time, and if players complain, just give it some thought. Hell, bring it to these forums and we'll help you out.

[Slipperychicken]

Do you know if they made tables for things such as "attacks of opportunity"? It seems like if you sneeze the wrong way, everyone and their mother gets an AoO. LOL.

Yes they did. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm) And the site I linked to, d20srd.org, has most of the core rules copy-pasted for easy access.


Most of my DMs like to keep several statblocks for unnamed NPCs like "generic soldier guy", or "generic commoner", then use one that seems appropriate if the PCs start interacting with them. Also, having a list of names ready (probably using a name-generator), not assigned to anyone in particular, so you can glance at the list and pick a pre-made name as needed.


As for bringing them together, I've never DM'd, but my DMs so far usually have the whole party hired by the same entity (they all get letters telling them to come to the first questgiver for briefing, then are sent on their first mission as a mercenary group or something). Of course, there are many ways to do this.

Learn what kind of game the group has in mind (dungeon-crawl, intrigue, hack&slash, mystery, horror, etc). Obviously, elements can mix and match and blend as desired.

Above all, have fun. If everyone's having fun, you're doing it right, and no one can say otherwise.

[killem2]

Thanks guys. I think i will try to not sweat bringing them together, I mean, really, that should be only a fraction of their history, and if I do it right, the many adventures to come should black out exactly how they came to be.

I'll update again if anything else stumps me. I'd rather just keep my questions in one thread, so I don't clutter the boards.

[Quietus]

My advice? Tell them where they're starting, maybe even the circumstances they're starting off in, and ask each of them to explain why they're there. Let the players decide how much investment they have in their starting location. If they're okay with "I was wandering and happened to be here", awesome.

[killem2]

My advice? Tell them where they're starting, maybe even the circumstances they're starting off in, and ask each of them to explain why they're there.

This worked great. I have a pretty basic way to linking them all together.


I should ask, because it seems to be the pink elephant in the thread here...

Is it unusual for a DM to have a PC as well? I remember from my 2.0 days our dm always had a PC and it never was an issue. Or is it normally frowned upon because the average person might have trouble keeping the distance between what they know (since they are the dm) and their char?

[One Tin Soldier]

This worked great. I have a pretty basic way to linking them all together.


I should ask, because it seems to be the pink elephant in the thread here...

Is it unusual for a DM to have a PC as well? I remember from my 2.0 days our dm always had a PC and it never was an issue. Or is it normally frowned upon because the average person might have trouble keeping the distance between what they know (since they are the dm) and their char?

It seems to be that, in combination with the fact that it is really tempting to make the DMPC really good at whatever they do, usually overshadowing the party in the process. Players don't like sitting there watching the DM roll dice against himself.

For instance, I just started a game with a DMPC druid in the party. (I had rolled up the character a while before, when I thought I would be joining a different game.) It is really tempting to have him prepare the most useful spells for the day's encounters. To counter this, I'll have him multiclass into barbarian (which was part of the character concept in the first place), and I'm also thinking of letting the players choose which spells he prepares. Just food for thought.

[Aegis013]

This worked great. I have a pretty basic way to linking them all together.


I should ask, because it seems to be the pink elephant in the thread here...

Is it unusual for a DM to have a PC as well? I remember from my 2.0 days our dm always had a PC and it never was an issue. Or is it normally frowned upon because the average person might have trouble keeping the distance between what they know (since they are the dm) and their char?

It's not THAT unusual, but when you have a bad experience with it, it leaves the idea rotten for you for a long time.

DM's who place PC's into their party often excessively optimize, or show significant preferential treatment to their own character, which can be very frustrating to the other players. (Because they're not being treated fairly)

Also, DM's often use their PC as a crutch to get the party out of sticky situations (which invalidates the party and their choices and I, and others, think that's just not fun) or to spoon-feed them information that they should really be investigating to find out, which takes away an aspect of the game.

Realistically, it's always better to think of a DMPC as an NPC unless you're rotating DM's and everybody who DM's is going to have a PC anyway, but I've never been in a group that did that.

[killem2]

Whew! I'm safe then. I just plan on getting spells that help in combat mostly and as we grow I might get other stuff.

It's kinda why I picked illusionist and why I picked master specialists. Sure it can be pretty awesome, but I am roll playing this gnome as an illusionist 1st gunslinger 2nd.

I've also set an internal limitation to myself that I will keep one spell per class (such as a spell that can unlock a door, if the rogue might be down, or fail), that can do their job, but everything else is going to accent combat. I really want to be a crowd control wizard with lots of tricks.

[Elboxo]

Elf Monk -> Tatoo Monk (tiger)


D:<


No seriously, if someone wants to make an unarmed fighter suggest to them to look at Magic of Incarnum - Totemists, if you can get a copy, another good choice is just monk 2/ranger or barbarian and fighter into a rage class like frenzied berserker, it means they will have Full Base attack Bonus and extra interesting class abilities they will make use of, as for elf... well, -2 con is never good, personally I'd go with Orc, or water orc if you'd allow from Unearthed Arcana, +4 str, +2 con, -2 mental stats, For the fighter I'd suggest two levels in ranger to save you a feat ( Rapid Shot ) while still progressing full BaB, something like Ranger 2/Fighter 2 would work well, getting pre-requisite feats early on.

Nice to see a dwarven cleric! WOOOOOOOOO

Gnome illusionist will be great fun!

So yeah, welcome! My only real suggestion for change here, if you don't have books outside of core, is to at least push monk up to Full BaB or to ask them to reconsider another class and take Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat. If they stay monk, recommend this feat to them: Superior Unarmed Strike: http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-2844-superior-unarmed-strike.html

If you are a monk, you deal damage with your fists as a monk 4 levels higher, that should push him/her up to around d8 or d10 damage per attack, which is more like it!

Remember the main thing is to have fun!

[Taelas]

If they're new to the game, the Monk thing above might not come into play. Different people have different priorities regarding what they want out of the game, so your Monk player might be completely happy with the character. On the other hand, if there is a lot of combat in the game, the Monk could end up feeling as if he doesn't add much.

The problem is that the Monk is a fairly weak class, despite a long list of class abilities. (They are mostly either plainly not good, too situational, or require too much investment to make it worth your time.) As a front-line combatant with a lot of abilities depending on Wisdom, the Monk requires a fairly wide spread of ability scores (Strength for hit and damage, Dexterity for AC, Constitution for hit points, and Wisdom for the abilities). That is more than most other classes. For example, the Wizard can be happy with just a high Intelligence (though he prefers at least a moderate Dex and a decent Con).

[Elboxo]

If they're new to the game, the Monk thing above might not come into play. Different people have different priorities regarding what they want out of the game, so your Monk player might be completely happy with the character. On the other hand, if there is a lot of combat in the game, the Monk could end up feeling as if he doesn't add much.

The problem is that the Monk is a fairly weak class, despite a long list of class abilities. (They are mostly either plainly not good, too situational, or require too much investment to make it worth your time.) As a front-line combatant with a lot of abilities depending on Wisdom, the Monk requires a fairly wide spread of ability scores (Strength for hit and damage, Dexterity for AC, Constitution for hit points, and Wisdom for the abilities). That is more than most other classes. For example, the Wizard can be happy with just a high Intelligence (though he prefers at least a moderate Dex and a decent Con).


Good point, if it is gonna be combat heavy, might I suggest some homebrew class features? Maybe similar to the idea of Stunning Fist? Things like disabling a limb on an opposed strength check for 1 round every 3 character levels, or less if you feel so inclined

[killem2]

I'll mention the other books to him to look over. He is dead set on being a monk. That's ok with me, I'm not going to punish him for picking a weak class, but I'm sure he'll start to see the path he's taken soon. I'm fairly confident in the cleric and fighter we have, and yeah there's always me the bonkers mage. I think we'll be ok though.

[Acanous]

The best advice I can give you is to rent Tyndmyr for a couple hours to synergize and optimize your NPCs and encounters, Eldariel or Coidzor to check over your wizard and the cleric PC and figure out how well they are optimized (and subsequent likelyhood of breaking your campaign), and Kharot or Urpriest to doublecheck your plot for mechanically exploitable holes.

JaronK's tier system has already been posted, you might want to give that a once-over. The following items should be considered very carefully before you allow them in your game:
Thought Bottle
Deck of Many Things
Candle of Invocation
Nightstick

[Elboxo]

I'll mention the other books to him to look over. He is dead set on being a monk. That's ok with me, I'm not going to punish him for picking a weak class, but I'm sure he'll start to see the path he's taken soon. I'm fairly confident in the cleric and fighter we have, and yeah there's always me the bonkers mage. I think we'll be ok though.

Cool! Well if he's realised it may not be as powerful as though compared with others, ask him to consider Supreme Unarmed Strike and perhaps you could think about buffing the class up to full BaB, this makes it considerably stronger in combat, as the low damage suddenly becomes d10s, getting him for bang for his buck, early on.

[Malachei]

On the tier system : With everyone fairly new to the game, that'll matter a lot less. Do watch out for one player showing up the others constantly, but with low optimization, it'll depend largely on stats and luck more than anything.

I couldn't agree more.

Welcome to GITP, killem2. Note these forums have a reputation for having a high number of players focused on optimization. While this may be interesting for you, my advice would be not to indulge too much into making the most powerful characters, but focus on creating the best game for your group.

Roleplaying: My advice would be to focus on roleplaying and not rollplaying. Let them experience the magic of D&D without needlessly engaging in too much mechanics. Ask the experienced player to help the others, without letting him direct the game. Don't let rules discussions get in the way. The first experiences in D&D are magical, and I remember fondly when a monster was a dangerous, unknown enemy and not something I know the stats of. Actually, I even more fondly remember the first sessions, in which others told me which die to roll. It was, indeed a magical night. So go ahead and create your fantasy novel: Invent fantastic location, surprises, use light and perhaps a sound system for atmosphere. Design a plot full of suspense and motivation for the PCs to solve.

If he wants to be a monk, let him be a monk: Don't worry about one player picking a weaker class until it is creating an issue in actual play. In fact, don't worry about balance beforehand. You can fix balance on the way. It is easier done that using houserules, and it works better than the tier system, because they don't apply to your group anyway (as it assumes similar player experience and similar optimization levels). In fact, as you are using dice rolls to create characters (still the standard and traditional method of non-play-by-post character creation) and not point buy, you'll have some imbalances anyway, just because some player is more lucky with the rolls.

If you see one player is left behind, search for the answer why this is the case. Is the player not using his character's potential? Then the experienced player can help. Is the character weak compared to the others? Then assign a nice magic item in the next treasure.


The best advice I can give you is to rent Tyndmyr for a couple hours to synergize and optimize your NPCs and encounters, Eldariel or Coidzor to check over your wizard and the cleric PC and figure out how well they are optimized (and subsequent likelyhood of breaking your campaign), and Kharot or Urpriest to doublecheck your plot for mechanically exploitable holes.

JaronK's tier system has already been posted, you might want to give that a once-over.

Why would a beginner group want to optimize?

I'm saying let them play the (roleplaying) game, not optimize the (mechanical) characters.

Adventures:

IMO, the most important factor whether you will be having fun is the quality of the adventures you play. Not the houserules, not the optimization level, not the tiers of your characters, etc. You can throw all that out of the window if your adventure is boring. There are many low-level starter modules out there, some are available online. The WOTC archives may still have some, but there is a thread over at Enworld in which the old module conversions to D&D are reposted. For a more up-to-date module, Crucible of Freya from Necromancer / Sword & Sorcery games, but fully 3.0 compatible (now out of print?) is well done, IMO. It also has a prequel, The Wizard's Amulet, which was available online and for free.

Old Dungeon magazine issues are a big help to see how modules are designed and to integrate some of them into your campaign. Even if you have a clear campaign outline, it can serve as input. Also, the guys over at Paizo have done some excellent Pathfinder Adventure Paths. They all start level 1 and carry until level 15. IMO, it should not be hard to convert them to 3.5, but the first adventure paths (Shackled City, Savage Tide, which appeared in Dungeon Magazine, plus some of the first APs, such as at least Rise of the Runelords, IIRC) are actually completely based on 3.5 rules.

You may also read some adventures in the IC (in-character) threads in the play-by-post games on this forum. Many are running excellent campaigns here, which can serve as an inspiration for both roleplaying, as well as campaign and encounter design. My personal games are in my sig, below (the Red Hand of Doom campaign is on GITP... which is, by the way, and excellent, official adventure, however starts at level 5-6).

[Acanous]

Why would a beginner group want to optimize?

Well, the OP mentioned a few things:
Played 2nd Ed
Players play M:tG
Both of these things speak to me that the players enjoy a challenging, well-thought-out game, and are more open to rules minutae than the average newcomer.
Coming to third edition, there will be some misconceptions (Paladins, for example, are nowhere near as good in 3.5 as they were in 2E. The new Holy Avenger stats alone see to that.) but after a session or two, they'll probably get the hang of things. Especially if you have some well-built encounters to show off the different abilities and types of encounter that the players can pull. In 3.5, much like in Magic, the players have access to every single tool in the system...just limited space to include them.

One other thing, though: You're running a DMPC. That is something that even the most experienced of DMs will tread lightly with. Further, he's one of the most powerful classes in the game. There's a very high chance this will cause you problems down the line. Be wary of outshining your players, and try to be more of a supportive character.

[ILM]

One other thing, though: You're running a DMPC. That is something that even the most experienced of DMs will tread lightly with. Further, he's one of the most powerful classes in the game. There's a very high chance this will cause you problems down the line. Be wary of outshining your players, and try to be more of a supportive character.
Just to further that point: if you're even considering making him a Shadowcraft Mage down the line (Gnome Illusionist/ Master Specialist is kind of a classic entry), give it up or your game will implode.

[killem2]

I have a new dilemma. Much worse than any thing else stat wise or char wise I've brought up here... :smalleek:


The monk, who wishes to become a Tattooed monk, (regardless of crapiness or waste of time it might be on the optimization front) is showing very strong signs of not wanting to RP the tattooed monk.

When it comes to RP I'm not exactly a ruthless person who will make you feel inferior if your imagination and RP skills suck, but I do firmly believe in keeping at least some degree of fantasy feel.

The issue is, the speaking in cryptic riddles. This is fantastic flavor but he has been joking with his dad (who is the cleric/rogue chars) that he may never speak. Which is kind of... sucky.

What do you do with this as a DM?

[killem2]

The gods must be watching lol. I just got a text from the kids day saying nm he's going dwarf fighter.

prestige class (stonelord)

I'LL TAKE IT.

All is well here.



Just to further that point: if you're even considering making him a Shadowcraft Mage down the line (Gnome Illusionist/ Master Specialist is kind of a classic entry), give it up or your game will implode.


Are you saying I should give up the master specialist or not go shadowmage. Not sure what shadow mage is, doesn't sound anything close to what I want from my character though.

[Elboxo]

The gods must be watching lol. I just got a text from the kids day saying nm he's going dwarf fighter.

prestige class (stonelord)

I'LL TAKE IT.

All is well here.





Are you saying I should give up the master specialist or not go shadowmage. Not sure what shadow mage is, doesn't sound anything close to what I want from my character though.

Shadow Craft Mage is a Gnome-only illusionist prestige class that lets you cast the spells Shadow Evocation/Conjuration ( Spells that replicate spells of the namesake, with a % of how 'real' the shadows are, usually 40% I think ) Shadow-Craft Mage lets you cast those spells ( Shadow evoc/etc...) at a higher % of 'reality' meaning more powerful, in fact I've seen people get it up to 140% real, this means 140% damage or such, or shenanigans like 140% real Gate spell. It basically allows you to screw with reality with illusions, if you didn't break it, it may be fun, no idea. :/


Dwarf Fighter.... Okay..... He seems a tad set of un-flavourful classes, but then again, if he can change his willingness to RP, dwarves are always very fun; cue Wenches and Ale by Alestorm. If you have the Unearthed Arcana, get him to take a loot at Dwarf Paragon, it allows some nice options while continuing your dwarf-ness! For the dud levels of Fighter it's good, it's 3 levels, it gives you d10 Hit-Die, full BaB, and at level 2 your saves against poison and ALL SPELLS OR SPELL-LIKE ABILITIES increases by 1, bringing it up to 3, and on the third and final level, you get a +2 boost to Constitution, (+1 hp per level automatically, and thereafter whenever he levels up ) which stacks with everything, Barbarian is a great choice for those high-Con classes too, a dip for Whirling Frenzy, or two for Wolf totem ( Free Improved Trip Feat ) and the Extra Rage feat is a nice touch.

As said before though, since it's mostly a low optimization group, just have fun! Try to get the players to think of unusual weapons or RP themes that will change things, suggest to someone to take a Net for example, the person is entangled, and on a successful strength check, can't move! Cheap and easy way to make fun and combat prowess for low level characters.

[killem2]

Update: As of right now, the party is still 5, We still have the Dwarf Cleric, Gnome Illusionist, and Halfling Rogue. We now have a Dwarf Fighter and an Elf Ranger.


New question, regards to giving information secretly to players at the table. I have the fighter and cleric (cleric who wants to be come a hammer of moradin and the fighter who wants to become a stone lord) starting together.

As a test of might if you will the Arch Cleric of this sectior of the Hammer (hammer of moradin) is sending them down to a long since deserted area of underground tunnels and such that used to serve as the cities exit to the outside. Since then, the city has a bridge, and path way that goes right out side the city and down, so the passage was sealed off generations ago.

This network is partially used by group of bandits (to which the ranger and rogue are tied into story wise) but the cleric and fighter will have ZERO knowledge of this from the get go.

My question is, after defeating some basic orcs and goblins they discover some rather extravagant items, non-magical but classy. (Gold staff, silver dagger with rubys, highly ornate brooch.) Basically stuff that as far as worth would be found rather easily on creatures of level 10+. Severly out of place in other words.

Is it ok for me to make a wisdom check when they find these items, and give them an index card that states what they notice?

I feel I have to do this, because if the rogue or ranger hear outloud what they find, then it would harm the suspension of disbelief.