Synthesist Mech Build Help

[Prospector]

So I having to make a character for this Saturday (Pathfinder Society event), and wanted to try something different. So I was watching some anime and it it hit me: Mech. So I tried to figure what would be the best way to achieve it and came upon the Synthesist. And what better race to build/pilot the mech than a gnome.

However I know there is a lot of questions about the archetype, so I only have a partial build so far:

Race: Gnome

Class: 1 Summoner (Synthesist Archetype)

Attributes:
Rating Mod
Str: 06 -2
Dex: 08 -1
Con: 14 +2
Int: 16 +3
Wis: 12 +1
Cha: 18 +4

HP: 10

Skills:
Knowledge (Arcana)
Knowledge (Engineering)
Knowledge (Planes)
Spellcraft
U.M.D.

Feats:?

Spells:
0: Detect Magic, Guidance, Mage Hand, Read Magic
1:Grease, Enlarge Person

Eidolon Base: Bipedal
Size: Medium
Spd: 30
Ac:+2 Natural Armor
Attributes:
Rating Mod
Str: 16 +3
Dex: 12 +1
Con: 13 +1
Free Evolutions: claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs)
Purchased Evolutions: ?

I'd like any help in making the build in theme with a mech designer/pilot yet effective in combat. Thanks in advance.

[jaybird]

Well, I suppose the first question is: natural attacks, manufactured melee, or manufactured ranged?

[SamBurke]

I would go for the "Kali" build: IE, slashing everything in sight with THF.

Extra arms, extra strength.

Get large as fast as you can.

Saph had an awesome guide, which someone will hopefully be kind enough to post a link to....

[Wings of Peace]

Does the PF society let the Synthesist wear armor while bound with the Eidolon? Cause NA + A = Monster ac early on.

[Prospector]

Well, I suppose the first question is: natural attacks, manufactured melee, or manufactured ranged?

I'm not sure. Probably either natural attacks or manufactured melee. What would be more mech-ish flavor in peoples opinion? Or what is better (mechanically) for the bipedal base?

Edit: Just checked and no Armor the summoner wears does not stack with the eidelon's bonuses. The eidelon's supersedes the armor.

[Barstro]

I've always considered range/thrown to be more of a "Mech" thing than melee. I think you can go with multiple arms and fire/load all sorts of crossbows.

If you want melee, you first need to figure out what your Mech will do and build accordingly. I know it isn't much help, but Eidolons are so versatile that it's hard to say "this is what you need to do". The nice part is, if you don't like what you did, just build a new biped next level; you can change everything except base form, feats, and skills.

[panaikhan]

Take a couple of levels of Gunslinger (Musket Master 3, probably) and go for Long Range Assault Mech. If they get close enough, you can still claw them.
Or maybe go Quadruped and be the mount for someone small in your party (as is happening in our group - the Halfling Synthesist acts as mount for the Gnome Alchemist

[Prospector]

The problem with long range is it doesn't work mechanically well for the biped. The Biped has Str 16 and a Dex 12. Unless I'm forgetting something, almost all range attacks use Dex as their primary stat. Just seem like a waste of a decent Str score to go range.

Edit: While being someone's mount might be fun, by the nature of Pathfinder Society I never know if my party will include someone who wants to do mounted combat.

[JadePhoenix]

You could get a magic sowrd, like the Power Rangers.

[Barstro]

The problem with long range is it doesn't work mechanically well for the biped. The Biped has Str 16 and a Dex 12. Unless I'm forgetting something, almost all range attacks use Dex as their primary stat. Just seem like a waste of a decent Str score to go range.

Good point. Could take Serpent, but then you wouldn't be "Mech" until you managed leg and arm evolutions.

You could be a wand-user for the ranged damage. But, it's just not the same.

[Prospector]

I was thinking it might be easier make a power rangers/kamen rider than a straight up mech. However that brings up a whole new series of questions, like how many levels of Summoner I should take and what other class should I pair it up with to best reflect power rangers/kamen rider style of fighting?

[jaybird]

Well, if you want something out of a sentai show, maybe a Summoner/Paladin mix? The only mental stat you need is CHA, and STR 13 to take Power Attack. Why Paladin? Full BAB, an amazing Smite, a decent self-buff spell list, and best of all, you get CHA bonus to all your saves. Plus, the whole "warrior of good and justice" thing fits in with the sentai theme.

[JadePhoenix]

I was thinking it might be easier make a power rangers/kamen rider than a straight up mech. However that brings up a whole new series of questions, like how many levels of Summoner I should take and what other class should I pair it up with to best reflect power rangers/kamen rider style of fighting?

Kamen Rider is easy to do. Pick up a few Monk levels so you can get a fitting combat style (and enough damage for your Rider kick) and use Synthesist for all the abilities you'll need.
After that, Enlightened Fist is a good option.

[Prospector]

I do like the sound of the synthesist/paladin hero of justice. Any recommendations on how many levels of each I should go in each (lvl caps at 12)? Oh, does a synthesist's eidelon need to take weapon training evolution?

[jaybird]

I do like the sound of the synthesist/paladin hero of justice. Any recommendations on how many levels of each I should go in each (lvl caps at 12)? Oh, does a synthesist's eidelon need to take weapon training evolution?

Well, at least 2 levels of Paladin for CHA to saves. If your GM will let you use your Eidolon as your Divine Bond, definitely Paladin 5, which will also let you have level 3 spells on your Summoner. Paladin 8 is good as well, as that's where you gain immunity to Charm spells and SLAs. This works with Synthesist 4 which gives you +2 to AC and +2 to all your saves as long as you're fused. Alternately, 6/6 will give you a 1/day DimDoor at-will, which can be a life-saver.

tl;dr:

Summoner/Paladin:
7/5: level 3 spells, Divine Bond
6/6: 1/day DimDoor, 2 Mercies
4/8: +2 AC, +2 saves, immune to Charm

Comparing what you get, it really becomes a debate between whether you want level 3 spells or immunity to Charm/better BAB/more HP. With your massive bonus to saves, you shouldn't really need that immunity, and Haste is better then even 12 levels of Paladin for BAB. Eidolon takes care of HP issues. IMO, Summoner 7/Paladin 5 is the way to go.

Not sure about Weapon Training evolution, but you should just need the weapon proficiency on your PC to use manufactured weapons...

[Prospector]

Well I'm doing this for Pathfinder Society. I'm pretty sure making my eidelon my devine bond is out of the question, since it isn't a weapon and it isn't one of the described 'mounts'. Unless there is something I'm missing.

[jaybird]

Well I'm doing this for Pathfinder Society. I'm pretty sure making my eidelon my devine bond is out of the question, since it isn't a weapon and it isn't one of the described 'mounts'. Unless there is something I'm missing.

Well, use your divine bond for a weapon, then :smalltongue: still, level 3 spells>BAB+HP. Haste is good. Take advantage of a Hasted Smite Evil.

[Prospector]

Any suggestions on initial feats (changeing race to human)?

[jaybird]

Any suggestions on initial feats (changeing race to human)?

Improved Initiative is ALWAYS good.

[Prime32]

I was thinking it might be easier make a power rangers/kamen rider than a straight up mech. However that brings up a whole new series of questions, like how many levels of Summoner I should take and what other class should I pair it up with to best reflect power rangers/kamen rider style of fighting?Did a build before, though I wasn't really paying much attention to power.
Kamen Rider Birth (http://kamenrider.wikia.com/wiki/Kamen_Rider_Birth)
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/AnimeZodiac/Kamen%20Rider/KamenRiderBirth1.jpghttp://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110330213331/kamenrider/images/f/f1/KamenRiderBirthCLAWsForm.jpg
Human Summoner (synthesist) 9
Feats: Belier's Bite, Combat Reflexes, Eldritch Claws, Improved Unarmed Strike, Lunge, Power Attack
Equipment: Metamagic wand grip (Maximise), Pearls of power (Cell medals), Wand of Empowered magic missile, Staff of <metabreath spells>

Eidolon: Birth System
Biped
Evolutions: Ability increase [Str] (2), Claws (free), Damage reduction [chaotic] (3), Energy attacks [acid] (2), Improved natural armor (1), Limbs [arms] (free), Limbs [legs] (free), Low-light vision (1), Weapon training [simple/martial] (4)


Birth Buster: Wand of magic missile
Birth Buster, Cell Burst: Wand of magic missile + metamagic wand grip

Birth CLAWs (low level)
Breast Cannon: Use evolution surge to manifest Breath Weapon evolution.
Caterpillar Leg: Use lesser evolution surge to manifest Limbs (legs) evolution.
Crane Arm: Use lesser evolution surge to manifest Reach evolution, activate Lunge.
Cutter Wing: Use evolution surge to manifest Fly (magic) evolution.
Drill Arm: Use lesser evolution surge to manifest Bite evolution.
Shovel Arm: Use lesser evolution surge to manifest Slam evolution.

Birth CLAWs (high level)
Breast Cannon: Use greater evolution surge to manifest Breath Weapon (3/day) evolution.
Caterpillar Leg: Use greater evolution surge to manifest Limbs (legs) + Large evolutions.
Crane Arm: Use greater evolution surge to manifest Reach + Pull evolutions, activate Lunge.
Cutter Wing: Use greater evolution surge to manifest Fly (magic) + Wing Buffet evolutions.
Drill Arm: Use greater evolution surge to manifest Bite + Burrow evolutions.
Shovel Arm: Use greater evolution surge to manifest Slam + Grab evolutions.

[Prospector]

That sounds like just what I was looking for Prime32! Looks like a fun build. Do remember how well it did?

[Prime32]

That sounds like just what I was looking for Prime32! Looks like a fun build. Do remember how well it did?Never tried it in play.

[grarrrg]

With a bit of reflavoring this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12152413&postcount=124) would fit nicely.
Problem is, it isn't really a "Start at level 1" type of build.

For your purposes I'd recommend along the lines of:
Start with Gunslinger 1 (Mysterious Stranger)
Then Ranger 2 (Trophy Hunter) to re-gain Quick Clear
All the rest in Summoner (Synthesist).
Human or Halfling are decent races, rearrange the Stats so your starting Dex is at least 16, you can pull the points out of Wis as you don't need that anymore.

[Prospector]

Ok, then that brings up some question. Does Improved Unarmed Initiative change the die size from a 1d3 to something bigger? And does anyone know if you can used your fused stats to qualify for feats?

Oh and grarrrg thanks for the suggested build. Wile interesting and fun looking build, it isn't quite what I was looking for.

[Prime32]

Ok, then that brings up some question. Does Improved Unarmed Initiative change the die size from a 1d3 to something bigger?Does what? :smallconfused:

And does anyone know if you can used your fused stats to qualify for feats?In 3.5 you could (but would only be able to use them while you qualified). In PF I assume this still holds true, but official designer statements are unpredictable and rarely follow from the books.

[grarrrg]

And does anyone know if you can used your fused stats to qualify for feats?

*my interpretation*
I would say you must be able to qualify for the feat in your non-Eidolon-form.
But, Eidolon-form can alter the effects/usability of feats.

Example 1: Summoner with 13+Str takes Power attack. Changes into Serpentine-form (12 str w/2 arms), can NOT make Power Attacks.

Example 2: Summoner with 15+Dex takes Two-Weapon Fighting. Changes into Eidolon-form (13+Dex w/4+ arms), no longer qualifies for Two-Weapon (Dex), BUT DOES qualify for Multi-Weapon Fighting (13 Dex, 3+ arms), and Multi-Weapon explicitly 'replaces' Two-Weapon Fighting for creatures with 3+ arms. So in this case Two-Weapon "morphs" into Multi-Weapon.

Example 3: Power Attack scales up for every 4 points of Bab. If by switching to Eidolon-form your Bab would become a multiple of 4, then you'd get the additional penalty/bonus. At level 5, Summoner has 3bab, Eidolon-form has 4bab, so a Summoner would have -1 Acc +2 Dam, but the Eidolon would have -2 Acc +4 Dam.

[Barstro]

And does anyone know if you can used your fused stats to qualify for feats?

Great question for your DM. I'd rule that you can do it, but only get to use it while fused.

Sythestist (especially when multi-classed) has so many rules questions that are not addressed by RAW (or at least silly) that you should really just clear everything with your DM first, and be prepared to change the rules as the game progresses.

[Prospector]

I was asking if Improved Unarmed Combat increased the die size, because you normally only do a d3 point of damage (according to the weapons table).

I like Prime32's interpretation, but I can see grarrrg side as well. Though that interpretation kinda defeats the purpose of the synthesist. And Bastro, I'm trying to make this build Pathfinder Society legal.

[Prime32]

3.5e had at least two PrCs which were designed so that you could meet the prereqs using magic items, and directly stated this. Albeit, a Fighter/Wayfarer Guide relying on a helm of teleportation will be pretty terrible.

[grarrrg]

I like Prime32's interpretation, but I can see grarrrg side as well. Though that interpretation kinda defeats the purpose of the synthesist. And Bastro, I'm trying to make this build Pathfinder Society legal.

You also need to ask "If I take a feat I qualify for ONLY as an Eidolon, what happens if I later no longer qualify for it?"

Say you're a level 7 Synthesist, your Biped has 15 Dex (base 12 +3 levels) and has taken Two-Weapon Fighting.
You level up to 8 and decide you want it to be large. Large comes with a -2 Dex penalty, and you don't feel like spending the Evo points to bring it back up to 15.
What happens to the feat?

Partly because of the above, I still say you MUST qualify as a 'plain' Summoner to take a feat.

[Barstro]

Say you're a level 7 Synthesist, your Biped has 15 Dex (base 12 +3 levels) and has taken Two-Weapon Fighting.
You level up to 8 and decide you want it to be large. Large comes with a -2 Dex penalty, and you don't feel like spending the Evo points to bring it back up to 15.
What happens to the feat?


Same thing as what happens to a "person" with those stats who has Enlarge Person cast on him/her. I don't know what that answer is, just that it should be the same thing.

[Prospector]

You also need to ask "If I take a feat I qualify for ONLY as an Eidolon, what happens if I later no longer qualify for it?"

Say you're a level 7 Synthesist, your Biped has 15 Dex (base 12 +3 levels) and has taken Two-Weapon Fighting.
You level up to 8 and decide you want it to be large. Large comes with a -2 Dex penalty, and you don't feel like spending the Evo points to bring it back up to 15.
What happens to the feat?

Partly because of the above, I still say you MUST qualify as a 'plain' Summoner to take a feat.

My counter questions are: What happens when you have say a human with those stats and then has cast Enlarge Person on him? What if they suffered permanent ability drain? Does he lose the TWP? Or does it just go inert till you qualify for it?

Edit: You beat me to the punch Bastro

[grarrrg]

Same thing as what happens to a "person" with those stats who has Enlarge Person cast on him/her. I don't know what that answer is, just that it should be the same thing.

:smallsigh:
You both are missing the point, and have thus left me with only 1 option. I hate to do this but...

The rules.

(all underlines are done by me)
Feats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats)
Prerequisites

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.

A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.

Ability Scores (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Dexterity-Dex-):

Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.

Eidolon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner):

If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished.

Synthesist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist):

While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores ..., but retains his own mental ability scores....

Putting all the above together:
You must qualify for feats at the time they are taken. They can only be used while you qualify for them. You do not lose them, but you cannot use them.

Choose your Synthesist Specific Ruling option below:
Option A You "use" the Eidolons scores, you still keep your own. Because you must qualify for a feat with your own scores, you can never use your Eidolon's scores to qualify.
Option B The Eidolon's scores do indeed modify your own, but because they are rarely (if ever) maintained for 24 continuous hours, then they never have a chance to become considered "permanent" bonuses, and thus you cannot use them to qualify for feats.


What I said the first time stands.
You must qualify for ALL feats as a normal, non-eidoloned, Summoner.
The Eidolon has access to feats (if it qualifies), and can modify feats effects, but it cannot qualify for taking feats.

[Barstro]

Option A You "use" the Eidolons scores, you still keep your own. Because you must qualify for a feat with your own scores, you can never use your Eidolon's scores to qualify.

Option B The Eidolon's scores do indeed modify your own, but because they are rarely (if ever) maintained for 24 continuous hours, then they never have a chance to become considered "permanent" bonuses, and thus you cannot use them to qualify for feats.


It isn't hard at all to stay awake for 24 hours. So, if you believe in Option B, that can work. Personally, I do not believe in Option B.

The question that you actually asked earlier is;

"If I take a feat I qualify for ONLY as an Eidolon, what happens if I later no longer qualify for it?"
Why would you ask that question if you do not believe in the premise that you CAN take a feat if you qualify as only an Eidolon?

Both my and the other post were in response to that above question. You cannot pose a question about a hypothetical and then state that we should never have answered the question because the hypothetical cannot happen.

And your conclusion for this past post is the same/

What I said the first time stands.
You must qualify for ALL feats as a normal, non-eidoloned, Summoner.
The Eidolon has access to feats (if it qualifies), and can modify feats effects, but it cannot qualify for taking feats.
Now, why would you even say that "The Eidolon has access to feats (if it qualifies)", and then say "[The Eidolon] cannot qualify for taking feats"? (Summoner takes a feat, can use it in Eidolon form if he still qualifies)


The jist of your argument is; "The Summoner must, on his own, qualify for any feat he wants to take".

I do not necessarily disagree with that statement. But that conclusion would mean that you believe a Synthesist cannot take any monster feats, further limiting the Synthesist as contrasted to other Summoners.

[grarrrg]

It isn't hard at all to stay awake for 24 hours. So, if you believe in Option B, that can work. Personally, I do not believe in Option B.

I will grant that you can stay awake for longer than 24 hours at a stretch. But that isn't really a "long term" type of solution.


The question that you actually asked earlier is;

Why would you ask that question if you do not believe in the premise that you CAN take a feat if you qualify as only an Eidolon?

Both my and the other post were in response to that above question. You cannot pose a question about a hypothetical and then state that we should never have answered the question because the hypothetical cannot happen.

The question proposed was an example, you were free to answer the question itself, but both of you missed the intent of the question, which is that Eidolons are very "fluid". You can change (almost) anything you want about them, thus making it ridiculously easy to (potentially) qualify for feats.

Going back to the 24 hour rule, an Enlarged Person only stays that way for a few minutes, a Large-Eidolon stays that way until your next level-up (or you cast Transmogrify, or etc...). So there are different lengths of "temporary".


The jist of your argument is; "The Summoner must, on his own, qualify for any feat he wants to take".

I do not necessarily disagree with that statement. But that conclusion would mean that you believe a Synthesist cannot take any monster feats, further limiting the Synthesist as contrasted to other Summoners.

I forgot about the Monster feats...
And now the rules start arguing with themselves and all I'm left with is "Ask your DM until/unless Paizo ever puts out an Errata/FAQ for the Synthesist."

Yeah, the Synthesist is fun, isn't it?