Gaining Essentia Without Class Levels?

[Tibbaerrohwen]

I keep hearing a lot about Magic of Incarnum, but I can't get my hands on the book. I really have no idea what essentia is, beyond that there are some cool soulmelds that need it.
With this in mind, can you gain essentia without class levels in the classes from the book (totemist, incarnate and something else I think)?

Thanks.

[Darrin]

I keep hearing a lot about Magic of Incarnum, but I can't get my hands on the book. I really have no idea what essentia is, beyond that there are some cool soulmelds that need it.
With this in mind, can you gain essentia without class levels in the classes from the book (totemist, incarnate and something else I think)?


Yes. You can gain 1 essentia by picking one of the Incarnum races (Azurin, Duskling, Skarn), and you can also gain essentia by taking Incarnum feats. Most of the Incarnum feats that have an essentia capacity also give you 1 essentia.

Midnight Dodge, for example, can be used to qualify for anything that requires dodge, and you also gain 1 essentia that you can use elsewhere if you don't want to invest it into Midnight Dodge for 24 hours.

If you're psionic, then there are things you can do with Psycarnum Infusion (expend your psionic focus to treat a soulmeld/feat/class feature as if it was at maximum capacity) that can get into some recursive-loop shenanigans.

[Big Fau]

Yeah, but it isn't particularly useful (and feat-intense to boot). There's a magical location that provides essentia, but IIRC you only get the essentia while standing near it.


Why do you ask?

[Psyren]

There's a Ring of Essentia too, though if you don't have any of your own I think you'd need another Incarnum user to charge it for you.

[Kaje]

I think there's an Eberron PrC that allows you to temporarily steal essentia.

[Godskook]

1.There's really no point to essentia unless you have soulmelds.
2.There's very few soulmelds(and almost nothing else) that are worth using without taking levels in a meldshaper class.
3.Incarnate and Totemist both make great dips unless your DM is really good about using dispel against PCs.

[Psyren]

1.There's really no point to essentia unless you have soulmelds.

I wouldn't go that far; both incarnum feats and incarnum items also use essentia, and are often cheaper than their more universal counterparts. For instance, consider that a lesser ring of soulbound protection (essentia capacity 2, total deflection bonus to AC +3) costs 5,000 gp to make, whereas a ring of protection +3 costs 18,000gp - over 3x as much - for the same bonus. So if you do have essentia, you may as well use the cheaper essentia-powered items, especially since essentia stays invested as long as you want it to.

In a more niche case, I believe there are some monsters or attacks that try to drain your essentia first, and then damage your ability scores if you don't have any.

[Big Fau]

I wouldn't go that far; both incarnum feats and incarnum items also use essentia, and are often cheaper than their more universal counterparts. For instance, consider that a lesser ring of soulbound protection (essentia capacity 2, total deflection bonus to AC +3) costs 5,000 gp to make, whereas a ring of protection +3 costs 18,000gp - over 3x as much - for the same bonus. So if you do have essentia, you may as well use the cheaper essentia-powered items, especially since essentia stays invested as long as you want it to.

Add in the cost of two feats. The price tag on that ring is very misleading for a non-meldshaper.


In a more niche case, I believe there are some monsters or attacks that try to drain your essentia first, and then damage your ability scores if you don't have any.

Very niche at that, as they target Wis if you don't have Essentia (this is problematic for Divine casters, but not so much for a Fighter-type).

[Psyren]

Add in the cost of two feats.

1) One if you're an incarnum race.
2) The incarnum feat you pick up to hit +2 itself has benefits too.
3) Even if you only spend 1 essentia in the ring it is still cheaper (5000 vs. 8000.)


Very niche at that, as they target Wis if you don't have Essentia (this is problematic for Divine casters, but not so much for a Fighter-type).

If your fighter-type dumps Wis (as fighter-types tend to do) you're that much closer to catatonia as a result, not to mention failing will saves.

The point is that essentia does have uses for non-meldshapers, just like having a PP reserve has uses for non-manifesters.

[deuxhero]

Yeah, but it isn't particularly useful (and feat-intense to boot). There's a magical location that provides essentia, but IIRC you only get the essentia while standing near it.


Go go Acorn of Far Travel!

[Big Fau]

1) One if you're an incarnum race.
2) The incarnum feat you pick up to hit +2 itself has benefits too.
3) Even if you only spend 1 essentia in the ring it is still cheaper (5000 vs. 8000.)

Azurin only works if you were planning on being human anyway, otherwise you have to be a Duskling to get the extra point. Skarn and Rilkan do not get essentia.

Not every build can afford spending a feat. And, for the record, a feat costs 10,000gp by WotC's standards. So that 5,000gp for a +2 Deflection bonus is actually 15,000gp. Add another 10,000gp per essentia, and the price tag is exorbitantly higher than the regular ring.

[Psyren]

Azurin only works if you were planning on being human anyway, otherwise you have to be a Duskling to get the extra point. Skarn and Rilkan do not get essentia.

Fair enough, but both Azurin and Duskling are good races even if you aren't a meldshaper (and are fantastic if you are.)


Not every build can afford spending a feat. And, for the record, a feat costs 10,000gp by WotC's standards. So that 5,000gp for a +2 Deflection bonus is actually 15,000gp. Add another 10,000gp per essentia, and the price tag is exorbitantly higher than the regular ring.

Again, you're still not computing the opportunity cost correctly. An incarnum feat doesn't just give you essentia, it also gives you whatever the feat itself gives you.

For instance, if I need to pick up Dodge anyway to qualify for a PrC (say, Elocater) and I grab Midnight Dodge instead, I've essentially (no pun intended) gained essentia for free. Which I might as well use, and an item is a better place to spend it than a feat tax. Your 10k opportunity cost isn't taking that into account.

[gorfnab]

I think there's an Eberron PrC that allows you to temporarily steal essentia.
Thief of Life from Faiths of Eberron. You can cheese enter this class at level 2 if your first level is UA Generic Expert. I've wondered if UA Generic Expert 1/ Thief of Life 10/ Umbral Disciple 9 would actually be somewhat playable.

[Godskook]

I wouldn't go that far; both incarnum feats and incarnum items also use essentia, and are often cheaper than their more universal counterparts. For instance, consider that a lesser ring of soulbound protection (essentia capacity 2, total deflection bonus to AC +3) costs 5,000 gp to make, whereas a ring of protection +3 costs 18,000gp - over 3x as much - for the same bonus. So if you do have essentia, you may as well use the cheaper essentia-powered items, especially since essentia stays invested as long as you want it to.

In a more niche case, I believe there are some monsters or attacks that try to drain your essentia first, and then damage your ability scores if you don't have any.

The two arguments you've presented are:

1.Slight gold discount on items, at the cost of highly restrictive race choices.

2.The highly niche case(we're talking less than 1% probably) of encountering a rare monster that'd attack your essentia.

Between those two, if that's the best you've got, I stand by my statement.

[Darrin]

There's a Ring of Essentia too, though if you don't have any of your own I think you'd need another Incarnum user to charge it for you.

The Ring of Essentia doesn't give any bonus essentia. It's just a place to store it for 24 hours. Whoever puts essentia into the ring doesn't get it back until it's used or the 24 hours expires.

There is a way around this, but it may require a favorable DM ruling. If you have a way to generate temporary essentia, such as Psycarnum Crystal or Divine Soultouch, then you can store this bonus essentia in the ring. For Divine Soultouch, the temporary essentia is only supposed to last 1 round, but the ring "resets" the duration to 24 hours (this is where the DM may rule against you).

Psycarnum Crystal is easier to do this, since you get 1 bonus essentia whenever your psycrystal is within arm's reach. Put this bonus essentia into the ring, have your psycrystal step away and move back, and you have 1 essentia stored in the ring and, since it's no longer in your essentia pool, you get another bonus essentia from your psycrystal. If you had multiple rings (MIC dropped the price to 6000 GP), you could presumably fill them all this way.

[Psyren]

1.Slight gold discount on items, at the cost of highly restrictive race choices.

Given that the object of this thread is to gain essentia without meldshaper levels, wouldn't an Incarnum race or feats be a given? Or am I the only one actually reading the thread?

Needless to say, I stand by mine.

[TroubleBrewing]

There are quite a few feats that give you 1 point of Essentia, as well as something to invest it in. Practically every feat that starts with another word for "blue" (Azure, Cobalt, Indigo, Midnight, Sapphire, etc) is one of these.

[Godskook]

Given that the object of this thread is to gain essentia without meldshaper levels, wouldn't an Incarnum race or feats be a given? Or am I the only one actually reading the thread?

Needless to say, I stand by mine.

Azurin is pretty much just a worse Human unless you're a meldshaper, Dusklings are notable for their type, not the bonus essentia. And what I originally said is that there's no point to essentia without soulmelds, and little point to soulmelds without class levels.

And given that the object of my point is to say that class levels are highly advisable in almost all cases, you kinda haven't really addressed that point in a satisfactory manner.

[Psyren]

Azurin is pretty much just a worse Human unless you're a meldshaper

"Worse human" is like saying "Urban Druid." Still more than playable, and still better than many alternatives.


Dusklings are notable for their type, not the bonus essentia.

So if you play one for its type rather than as a meldshaper class, you don't get any essentia then?

Of course not, you still do. So you might as well use it.



And what I originally said is that there's no point to essentia without soulmelds

I know what you said, and it's still false. Both incarnum items and feats use essentia too.
If you have essentia, you might as well use it; if it saves you several thousand gold in the process, so much the better.


And given that the object of my point is to say that class levels are highly advisable in almost all cases, you kinda haven't really addressed that point in a satisfactory manner.

Class levels are irrelevant to this thread. If you want to discuss them, you're free to make another one.

[Rubik]

Soulmelds can be incredibly useful without class levels.

For instance, I often use the phase cloak bound to my shoulders chakra using the Psionic Open Chakra power (often boosting my manifester level and using cost reductions to do so at or before level 10). The ability to walk through walls, enemies, and even fly at perfect maneuverability at will is INSANELY useful, and you don't even need levels.

[Glimbur]

For instance, if I need to pick up Dodge anyway to qualify for a PrC (say, Elocater) and I grab Midnight Dodge instead, I've essentially (no pun intended) gained essentia for free. Which I might as well use, and an item is a better place to spend it than a feat tax. Your 10k opportunity cost isn't taking that into account.

You do lose out on the "normal" benefit of Dodge or Power Attack or whatever, as the feats(Midnight Dodge, at least) are scaled so that if you invest one essentia in the feat it's the same as taking the equivalent non-incarnum feat. If you're spending the essentia elsewhere, the only benefits the feat gives you is having the feat for pre-requisites and the point of essentia.

[Coidzor]

You may find this semi-recent discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12219746) of interest, OP.

[Talionis]

Cant a Chameleon use his Feat that he can change daily to aid in get a lot of different soulmelds and bind them?

[Big Fau]

Cant a Chameleon use his Feat that he can change daily to aid in get a lot of different soulmelds and bind them?

One soulmeld or one chakra bind, and then he has to use a spell to get a decent amount of essentia to use with it.


Really, it's easier to just dip Totemist 2-4.

[Fax Celestis]

I forget, does an essentia helm work for non-meldshapers?

[Big Fau]

I forget, does an essentia helm work for non-meldshapers?

Yes it does, but it's effect lasts for one round only.

[Chronos]

One soulmeld or one chakra bind, and then he has to use a spell to get a decent amount of essentia to use with it.
By RAW, you should be able to bind a soulmeld onto each of your chakras: Soulmelds stay shaped until you deliberately unshape them or an attack forces you to, and you need the feat to shape the meld, not to have it. It would be quite reasonable for a DM to houserule this, of course.

This won't give you any essentia to put in the melds, nor let you bind them, but plenty of melds are useful even without any essentia, and wearing items is generally better than binding melds anyway.