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Ancalagon
2011-11-16, 09:03 AM
... and we do not even got told if Thog is dead or alive, that is to say if the Order finally managed to achieve some sort of victory over them. As far as I am concerned, this just moved from "lame" to "sucks".

To top all that, Rich knew beforehand this is going to be (from a storytelling point of view) somewhat undramatic, anticlimatic and somehow not really satiesfieing. He let Belkar not care at all for the latest "Linear Guild Intersection".

The fight itself was dramatic, the aftermath so far the biggest letdown the comic had so far. We do not know if the LG had to pay at least some price, Nale vanished in a very lame way (apparently, luckily, we do not know for sure yet if he got away) from relatively certain doom.

Maybe all this here is to serve a bigger dramatic point and it all leads to something totally awesome in the next three or four stirps, but right now, it seems, to me, I saw the biggest letdown of the comic so far. Us not knowing about Thog or Elan/Tarquin now delaying the revelation isn't building up tension in me (one instance of a reader), it just creates indifference towards the next comic. All steam the arc so far had (left after the anti-climax we just followed) vapoured out with the last panel of 815.

After the last comics I sadly have to constitute: Belkar totally hit the nail on the head!

Do you consider this Linear Guild Intersection similar or actually completely different and consider it to be pure awesome?

ThePhantasm
2011-11-16, 09:25 AM
Who said it is over? It seems quite apparent that there will be more, this is just a calm in the storm. I don't think this encounter with the LG is quite finished yet.

Metahuman1
2011-11-16, 09:27 AM
I do consider that it served a purpose actually. We saw some character development out of Belkar and Elan, it sped up finding out about the next gate, and it Illustrated a HUGH difference in V's Fighting style as he moves way form Evoker and takes his first steps toward unlocking his classes full power.

Andre
2011-11-16, 09:31 AM
Hey, aren't you the same guy of the "So, Nale escapes again..." thread? It's ok that you want him dead pretty badly, but the mere usage of Dimension Door does not equal to Ass Pull, especially if we compare it to a natural 20 that makes an oversized amulet go boom, or a Control Weather scroll that does something a Control Weather spell ain't supposed to do. *wink wink*

I mean, any caster or psionic always picks at least a few from the Dimension Hop/Door - Incostant Location - (Greater) Teleport - Plane Shift list, and the DMs hate them for it. Well, except the wizards who bar conjuration, but I don't believe they really exist. :smallbiggrin:

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-11-16, 10:02 AM
Of course we gotta wait to find out if Thog is dead or alive. It’s gonna take awhile for Tarquin’s lackeys to dig Thog out, and Tarquin ain’t gonna stick around when he’s got administratin’ to do!


Well, except the wizards who bar conjuration, but I don't believe they really exist. :smallbiggrin:
Except for Vaarsuvius! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html)

Andre
2011-11-16, 10:15 AM
Except for Vaarsuvius! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html)

Cue this. :smallamused:

Gift Jeraff
2011-11-16, 10:17 AM
Why would Nale get killed off after all that foreshadowing about him, Sabine, and the archfiends? I also don't see him dying before Tarquin dies. Just doesn't feel right for some reason.

And another purpose it served was Blackwing learning about the IFCC being involved and wanting V alive.

NerfTW
2011-11-16, 12:53 PM
... and we do not even got told if Thog is dead or alive, that is to say if the Order finally managed to achieve some sort of victory over them. As far as I am concerned, this just moved from "lame" to "sucks".


THE SEQUENCE ISN'T EVEN OVER YET.

Do you just want to complain or something? Because you've been doing this after every strip in this arc. Just wait until the scene is over before you start complaining that it's over.

Mantine
2011-11-16, 02:52 PM
Maybe all this here is to serve a bigger dramatic point and it all leads to something totally awesome in the next three or four stirps, but right now, it seems, to me, I saw the biggest letdown of the comic so far.

Agreed.
And I'd advise people to consider this point before retaliating with the usual "THE SEQUENCE ISN'T EVEN OVER YET" mindset.
As things are, this seems more of a letdown than "calm before the storm".
Of course, things may change, but as things stand now, that's how it is.

Boogastreehouse
2011-11-16, 03:45 PM
... and we do not even got told if Thog is dead or alive, that is to say if the Order finally managed to achieve some sort of victory over them. As far as I am concerned, this just moved from "lame" to "sucks".

Roy beat Thog by using his intelligence. That was a clear victory. Vaarsuvius beat Z by overcoming her/his biggest character flaw. That was a clear victory. Elan evaded his brother and gained information. That was a clear victory. Belkar took care of his cat. That was a clear victory.

Yes, the bad guys got away (probably Thog too), but that's because this ambush-situation only exists to clue the Order in to the idea that The Linear Guild is also after the Gate. They weren't meant to defeat the Guild here; this was just the scene that upped the ante.


To top all that, Rich knew beforehand this is going to be (from a storytelling point of view) somewhat undramatic, anticlimatic and somehow not really satiesfieing. He let Belkar not care at all for the latest "Linear Guild Intersection".

Not what you expected ≠ anticlimactic. I for one am very happy at this turn of events:

Rather than Tarquin sitting down with Elan and saying "well, son, you spent three days with me and now I'll tell you about Girard, just like I promised," we have a scene consisting of "oh no! Nale is after the gate too! Dad you have to tell us what you know now before it's too late!" "Your right, son, time is of the essence!"

This seems a lot more dramatic to me.


Maybe all this here is to serve a bigger dramatic point and it all leads to something totally awesome in the next three or four stirps, but right now, it seems, to me, I saw the biggest letdown of the comic so far.

Remember we're reading one page every couple weeks right now. When this is collected later the flow is going to be very different. I expect that this part of the book will be a real page-turner, mainly because we will have the option of turning immediately to the next page.

Kish
2011-11-16, 04:17 PM
"Your right, son, time is of the essence!"
[...]
Also: Your/You're, Its/It's, Then/Than.

Irony is a cruel mistress.

Math_Mage
2011-11-16, 04:24 PM
The Linear Guild intersection here is explicitly just a sideshow to the issues of Tarquin and Girard. That it managed to be this meaningful (Boogastreehouse summarizes the relevant points) is remarkable.

And it doesn't make sense to me that you complain about the gag joke at the end of 815, considering that gag jokes at the end of the strip is a perfectly ordinary pattern for GitP strips.

brionl
2011-11-16, 04:36 PM
Irony is a cruel mistress.

He should of expected to make a mistake like that.

Zherog
2011-11-16, 04:38 PM
...should of ...

*brain explodes*

Boogastreehouse
2011-11-16, 04:41 PM
Irony is a cruel mistress.

Oh NO!!!!!

Darn it!

I'm... I'm just going to leave it, as a reminder of the folly of hubris.

AutomatedTeller
2011-11-16, 05:12 PM
I don't even know that the Order will ever beat the Linear Guild. Stop Xykon, sure, for some definition of stop.

For all we know, Nale will be critical to stopping Xykon. I have no problem at all with not knowing Thog's fate or Nale's or Sabine's.

This is a perfectly fine "cliffhanger"

Peelee
2011-11-16, 05:59 PM
Oh NO!!!!!

Darn it!

I'm... I'm just going to leave it, as a reminder of the folly of hubris.

Its good to see that you can except you're limitations.

FujinAkari
2011-11-16, 06:09 PM
...you can except...

... this is beginning to cross the line between ironic and sad.

Lizard Lord
2011-11-16, 06:09 PM
Its good to see that you can except you're limitations.

I laughed out loud. :smallbiggrin:

Howler Dagger
2011-11-16, 06:11 PM
Its good to see that you can except you're limitations.
That was intentional right?

OT: It is not over, WHY DO PEOPLE ASSUME THAT IT IS OVER?

Gift Jeraff
2011-11-16, 06:12 PM
... this is beginning to cross the line between ironic and sad.I think you missed the other two "errors" in his post. And the joke.

Nevereatcars
2011-11-16, 06:12 PM
Its good to see that you can except you're limitations.

I see what you did there.

FujinAkari
2011-11-16, 06:16 PM
I think you missed the other two "errors" in his post. And the joke.

No, but since those were specifically cited in the thread I assumed them to be intentional. Accept/Except, however, had not been referenced and so is likely a legitimate error :P

Peelee
2011-11-16, 06:26 PM
No, but since those were specifically cited in the thread I assumed them to be intentional. Accept/Except, however, had not been referenced and so is likely a legitimate error :P

Funny, since my whole comment was built around the "accept/except" joke. I went ahead and threw in "you're" as soon as I started writing it, and almost didn't even think to remove the apostrophe from "it's" at the beginning. Glad that one was caught, I was proud of thinking of it.

FujinAkari
2011-11-16, 08:39 PM
Glad that one was caught, I was proud of thinking of it.

COMMA SPLICE!

Ok, I'll stop ^_^

Gift Jeraff
2011-11-16, 08:48 PM
No, but since those were specifically cited in the thread I assumed them to be intentional. Accept/Except, however, had not been referenced and so is likely a legitimate error :PAh, that makes sense. Sorry I ever doubted ya. :smalltongue:

Peelee
2011-11-16, 09:28 PM
COMMA SPLICE!

Ok, I'll stop ^_^

Ok, that was a legitimate error. I'll just claim that it's a semicolon, though, and argue that you just can't see the upper dot. Stopping does sound good, though, simply for no longer derailing this thread. Besides, I got way a much better response out if that joke than I expected. I'm happy.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-11-16, 10:04 PM
He should of expected to make a mistake like that.


Its good to see that you can except you're limitations.

Treehouse, you need to add of/have, its/it's, and except/accept.

Goosefarble
2011-11-16, 11:29 PM
Much as grammatical correction gets me hard, I think we should get back to the proper topic. In my opinion the scene wasn't even a letdown - we saw Zz'dtri come back, for a start. This is the first legit fightscene that I've ever had to read through at the upload rate (I started reading just before #673), and I'm not complaining. Were you really expecting the Linear Guild to resurface, just to all die here? Was Zz'dtri really going to come back, fight V, and then die again? To my mind that'd be much crappier than what we've gotten, which has been a decent fight scene, background exposition, and some damn awesome jokes. Even if it is finished, I'm cool with it; I'd quite like to get down to business with Girard and all that.

Ping Pong Along
2011-11-16, 11:54 PM
We should change the title of this thread to, "Grammar Thread: Give Us You're Best Shot."

irenicObserver
2011-11-17, 12:20 AM
Agreed.
And I'd advise people to consider this point before retaliating with the usual "THE SEQUENCE ISN'T EVEN OVER YET" mindset.
As things are, this seems more of a letdown than "calm before the storm".
Of course, things may change, but as things stand now, that's how it is.

you know what? screw it. I would have responded but the words escape me. I'll let someone more qualified (and on topic) to rein this in.

Boogastreehouse
2011-11-17, 12:50 AM
Treehouse, you need to add of/have, its/it's, and except/accept.

I'm actually almost exactly at the limit of characters allowed in my signature.

I could free up some characters if I removed my little Elan and Haley quotes, but that's one of the most touching scenes in the series so there's no way I'm taking it out.

Procyonpi
2011-11-17, 01:55 AM
I could free up some characters if I removed my little Elan and Haley quotes, but that's one of the most touching scenes in the series so there's no way I'm taking it out.

Mind spilling what the translation for Haley's line there is? I'm not buying NCfPB until Rich reprints it, the current going price on Amazon is ninety bucks. And I'm not motivated / clever enough to figure out all the cryptograms - I was making decent progress on one set of them, but said screw it when I realized Rich switched it up occasionally.

llamamushroom
2011-11-17, 02:15 AM
At the risk of derailing this thread further, here you go (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36138). Look at strip 262.

On topic, I can't say I agree with the OP. To be perfectly honest, I really like Nale, so his continued existence and slightly more intelligent planning is a plus for me. Also, the gag at the end was gold (in a way that made me want to break something). On the other hand, I can understand why that sort of joke (playing off the audience expectation that we'll get the A plot moving, and stopping it for a previously established character reason) would grate on some readers, specifically those who want to get to the big final climax sooner, rather than later.

Sometimes, Mr Burlew, you're so sharp you'll cut yourself.

i6uuaq
2011-11-17, 02:23 AM
We should change the title of this thread to, "Grammar Thread: Give Us You're Best Shot."

I like that this website can make me LOL even when the comic hasn't been updated.

OT:


For all we know, Nale will be critical to stopping Xykon. I have no problem at all with not knowing Thog's fate or Nale's or Sabine's.


This sounds suspiciously like a Gollum ending, especially since Elan spared Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html) a long time ago.

It might be a nice symmetry plot-wise if the two parties team up again to hunt down Xykon at the last gate - Nale towards his own ends, as encouraged by the IFCC and an eye to a betrayal, of course. The only trouble I see is that the Linear Guild is prone to taking disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slights, which may make cooperating for more than two rounds (or maybe two strips) difficult.

Kish
2011-11-17, 08:38 AM
Agreed.
And I'd advise people to consider this point before retaliating with the usual "THE SEQUENCE ISN'T EVEN OVER YET" mindset.
As things are, this seems more of a letdown than "calm before the storm".
Of course, things may change, but as things stand now, that's how it is.
I'm afraid I see no "point," just both of you asserting, "This is a letdown." "Why are you suddenly deciding the arc has ended at all, not to mention in a way you don't like?" is an entirely correct answer to that. If you've wanted Nale to be instantly killed ever since his first appearance in this arc, I could have told you you'd be disappointed if you'd said so.

Mind spilling what the translation for Haley's line there is?
"I am totally in love with you."

ThePhantasm
2011-11-17, 10:36 AM
Agreed.
And I'd advise people to consider this point before retaliating with the usual "THE SEQUENCE ISN'T EVEN OVER YET" mindset.
As things are, this seems more of a letdown than "calm before the storm".
Of course, things may change, but as things stand now, that's how it is.

It seems like that even though Roy suggests in the latest strip (815) that Nale is out to find Girard, thus foreshadowing yet another battle with Nale in this very arc / book? There is no way that this arc can possibly be over yet. There may be several battles in this particular encounter with Nale and the LG.

Also, if Nale had died in this fight, before we were able to get a Tarquin / Nale / Elan all meet at once scene, THAT would have been a tremendous letdown and waste of potential. This arc seems to very much be about Elan and Haley's families. There's a lot more to be done before the finale of this arc.

Ancalagon
2011-11-17, 10:38 AM
Sorry for opening this thread but not being able to reply at once.

My problem is not really Nale still being alive. Yes, I think he's overdue to dieing, but that is not the core issue here.

My problem so far is we had the Linear Guild re-apperaing, having a fight (some sort of climatic) but that a-few-strips-long sub-arc did not really have any sort of round closing. We saw some intense fight that ended with Nale, Thog and Zz'dtri being defeated.
Vaarsuvius victory (which could have been acted as satisfying end) was spoiled and we have no idea what happened to Thog or Nale. The story moved on to the "aftermath" of the fights (the scene is over, we even had it to cut to two new locations (the saurus and now something that seems to be the palace or a city)) which means the actual encounter is over.
But we are still left hanging in the air without having seen the dramatic action getting actually closed in any way.

It's like showing how James Bond fighting the Evil Villains First Henchman but then showing Bond hitting a solid punch on the guy who stumbles backwards - and the suddenly cutting to Bond drinking a Martini at the hotel bar. From a storytelling point of view in that climatic battle scene something is missing. That's what, I think, happened here. The immediate battle (build up over quite a few strips with the arena and whatnot) ended, but the drama did not get closed but vapored away.
The ending of 815 even rubs that in the readers face and in my case I did not find that funny or witty at all, it just increased my annoyance how bad the (otherwise very well build-up and good executed) mini-climax was closed.

If Nale now re-appears (and gets defeated) or if we now learn Thog's fate, it'd not be the same "climatic setup" anymore because that was over at latest when they boarded the Brontosaur and started to do the paperwork(!).
Yes, the story is not over, yes, there is more to come with Nale, but the battle and drama in that scene was and is over. It was lead in very nicely but not lead out at all. And that is what I think sucks.

Gift Jeraff
2011-11-17, 10:47 AM
The story moved on to the "aftermath" of the fights (the scene is over, we even had it to cut to two new locations (the saurus and now something that seems to be the palace or a city)) which means the actual encounter is over.Considering Durkon just healed Haley's petrification, I think they're in the same spot Nale and Sabine were last seen.

AutomatedTeller
2011-11-17, 11:10 AM
I thought it was funny. I don't really think it gets in the way of the drama of the story or anything.

jidasfire
2011-11-17, 11:18 AM
I can understand your frustration, as Nale is one of the villains who, for me at least, comes across less as the type you want to watch work because you're impressed by his style, and more the type you want to see get beat down again and again because he's so obnoxious. That said, I think it's intentional, and you are supposed to feel frustrated when he escapes justice.

Still, the battle was not without some consequence for him. Thog, YukYuk, and Zz'dtri were defeated, Nale himself was humbled, and Tarquin knows he's there now. This puts Nale in a much weaker position than he was before, and he can't really pull another of his trademark ambushes on the Order, because he's lost three agents and the element of surprise. That said, I don't think this was supposed to be Nale's climactic moment in this arc. He said himself he threw the ambush together at the last minute. Whatever big thing Nale is planning (and the point at which he may get his inevitable comeuppance) has yet to happen.

I have found that as far as climaxes in OOTS go, Rich Burlew doesn't disappoint. He has a keen understanding of how to create high story moments while keeping the unexpected turns coming, without making them feel like anticlimaxes or ass-pulls. So I guess I'd say just be patient. I doubt Nale will escape the current arc unscathed, even if he doesn't die.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-11-17, 12:05 PM
It seems like that even though Roy suggests in the latest strip (815) that Nale is out to find Girard, thus foreshadowing yet another battle with Nale in this very arc / book? There is no way that this arc can possibly be over yet. There may be several battles in this particular encounter with Nale and the LG.
It’s not even a matter of Roy suggesting it. The Linear Guild specifically left Azure City to find one of the other Gates. And the Linear Guild have been a sufficiently sized thorn in the Order of the Stick’s size that if they were to be fully defeated before reaching a Gate as they have set out to do, it had better be doing something far more important than a last-minute ambush of opportunity. As jidasfire implies, The Giant is into climaxes, not anti-climaxes.


Also, if Nale had died in this fight, before we were able to get a Tarquin / Nale / Elan all meet at once scene, THAT would have been a tremendous letdown and waste of potential.
Yes. Definitely.


The story moved on to the "aftermath" of the fights (the scene is over, we even had it to cut to two new locations (the saurus and now something that seems to be the palace or a city)) which means the actual encounter is over.
Of course the encounter is over. Two of the villains got away, and the other three are playing Schrodinger’s NPC, in custody, or mentally dominated and trapped on Semi-elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing with Vaarsuvius.


But we are still left hanging in the air without having seen the dramatic action getting actually closed in any way.
I find collapsing a significant section of gladiatorial arena onto one’s foe to be quite dramatic, myself.


It's like showing how James Bond fighting the Evil Villains First Henchman but then showing Bond hitting a solid punch on the guy who stumbles backwards - and the suddenly cutting to Bond drinking a Martini at the hotel bar.
Assuming you are talking about Nale and Sabine, it is more like Bond beating the villain half to death, but the henchman manages to steal the only car in a 1 mile radius anyway. Then, with no way to make a direct pursuit, Bond calls in a report to MI6 that the villain got away, walks to the bar while waiting for MI6 to phone in a new lead they have been working on.


From a storytelling point of view in that climatic battle scene something is missing.
Why, again, are we assuming that this was supposed to be the climax?

Reminder, the climax is the highest point of drama or emotion in a story, not just any high point.


That's what, I think, happened here. The immediate battle (build up over quite a few strips with the arena and whatnot) ended, but the drama did not get closed but vapored away.
What drama was left? Thog is defeated and most likely dead.


The ending of 815 even rubs that in the readers face and in my case I did not find that funny or witty at all, it just increased my annoyance how bad the (otherwise very well build-up and good executed) mini-climax was closed.
Do you think all Tarquin knows about Girard could actually be expressed in a two panels? All leaving the lampshade off would have done would have left Tarquin saying something totally shocking and everyone else yelling, “What!?” End result: the same kind of cliffhanger we have here.

Actually, I think the fact that they left the cliffhanger with the deep pause indicates that Tarquin has plenty of information on Girard, but if any of it is shocking, it is certainly not “the first thing you need to know about Girard.”


If Nale now re-appears (and gets defeated) or if we now learn Thog's fate, it'd not be the same "climatic setup" anymore because that was over at latest when they boarded the Brontosaur and started to do the paperwork(!).
If Nale re-appears, that’ll be the start of a whole new development. It will need none of the dramatic or emotional setup of the previous battle.

I don’t see why Thog’s fate should require any sort of a setup. Even if we were to try and encapsulate this one little scene as its own story, the fate of a guy trapped under 20 tons of rubble is the stuff of denouement, not climax.


Yes, the story is not over, yes, there is more to come with Nale, but the battle and drama in that scene was and is over. It was lead in very nicely but not lead out at all. And that is what I think sucks.
Question: Why is it so important that this scene requires any stronger resolution than, say, the Haley Reunites With Her Dad scene?

Ancalagon
2011-11-17, 02:33 PM
To prevent long quote-chains: What you said is mostly correct, there is just no closure. I explained before why I think that, if that's nothing you can follow, I have nothing real to add further.

The problem is not that Nale got away, but that nothing really changed and a few "dramatic" things were left hanging in the air (both fights of Roy as well as of Elan were not really "concluded". The fights are over, but not concluded; compare to Vaarsuvius for an over and concluded fight for example - we know the Drow "lost" and got taken by the guards) after this climax.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-11-17, 02:50 PM
To prevent long quote-chains: What you said is mostly correct, there is just no closure. I explained before why I think that, if that's nothing you can follow, I have nothing real to add further.
What I’m asking is why you think there should be closure. Especially closure of the type you are asking for, as you and I seem to disagree on what qualifies as “closure.”


The problem is not that Nale got away, but that nothing really changed…
The following things have changed…
The Order is aware that Nale and Sabine are alive and up to something in the Empire of Blood. They have guessed that it may have to do something with the gates.
Thog and Zz’dtri been removed from the Linear Guild equation, at least for the short term.
Roy has secured release not only for himself and Belkar, but also for Geoff and Ian.
Vaarsuvius is now trapped on another plane with a dominated kobold. Whatever plot-related purpose this may serve remains to be seen.
Durkon has discovered that mass death ward requires additional work.
Most importantly for the overall plot: Exposure of the Linear Guild and the suggestion that they may be after Girard’s Gate has caused him to expedite his dispensing of information on Girard. While he was going to give this information anyway, he was taking his sweet time up until now.


and a few "dramatic" things were left hanging in the air (both fights of Roy as well as of Elan were not really "concluded". The fights are over, but not concluded; compare to Vaarsuvius for an over and concluded fight for example - we know the Drow "lost" and got taken by the guards) after this climax.
Just because the exact status of one of the combatants is not revealed to the audience does not mean the combat was not “concluded”. Malack thoroughly routed Nale and Sabine; they ran away to fight another day. Their status: on the lam. And I don’t know how much more heavily you can conclude a fight after dropping 20 ton of rock on your half-orc opponent. Thog’s status: Pinned under rubble and likely dead.

And if “We don’t know whether Thog is alive or dead” somehow manages to invalidate Roy’s fight as a conclusion, how the hell is Vaarsuvius’s battle a conclusion? He is still trapped on the Semi-elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing, just as thoroughly as Thog is trapped under all that rubble.

And just because I would like an answer I will repeat my first question: Even if we were to accept the above does not qualify as closure for this scene, why is it that there should be closure? What makes it so important?

Unisus
2011-11-17, 03:33 PM
Actually, there is still suspension suspense in the "unclosed" lines. It's not as if, when in 5 strips (for example) Thog is found missing, anybody would say "so what?" Not interesting".

As far as i know, it was Hitchcock who stated, that suspension suspense is far stronger, if the subject in question is just left alone and not mentioned in the story, until the tension is to be released (i hope i got the words right - it's a bit complicated if you are not an natiove speaker...).

edit: now in correct English thanks to Nimrod's Son :smallsmile:

Math_Mage
2011-11-17, 03:57 PM
Wait, so you're not suggesting that the lack of closure on the Linear Guild is a problem, but rather that the lack of closure on the individual fights is a problem? It's not like the only way to give a fight closure is with a dead body.
-Roy vs. Thog had pretty explicit closure via falling masonry.
-V vs. Z+Yukyuk had pretty explicit closure via Plane Shift.
-Elan+Haley+Durkon vs. Sabine+Nale had pretty explicit closure via Malack intervention.

More importantly, re: "What changed?":
-Roy finally wins a combat with his INT score
-V finally gets past the "If my arcane power isn't working, use MOAR POWER" mentality in a meaningful fight (i.e. not vs. Random Encounter desert bandits)
-Belkar learned Empathy!

We also see Durkon's friendship with Malack pay off, and unify the two anticipated events of the Empire of Blood arc: the gladiatorial fight and Tarquin spilling the beans on Girard. Note that these events would have been separated by at least a day in the original schedule. Meanwhile you're complaining that as a result of the 815 gag they've been held up for a few more panels. Does that make sense?

So the fights hold up well as standalone fights with closure, as character development, and as narrative structure elements. What exactly is missing?

Nimrod's Son
2011-11-17, 09:10 PM
i hope i got the words right - it's a bit complicated if you are not an natiove speaker...
It's "suspense", not "suspension", but your point was perfectly clear all the same. :smallsmile:

thereaper
2011-11-18, 03:22 AM
Killing Nale accomplishes nothing. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html)

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-11-18, 09:05 AM
Killing Nale accomplishes nothing. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html)
I love how in this comic Haley seems to think it is easy to just grab a true resurrection, but then she spends all of Don’t Split the Party dutifully guarding Roy’s corpse because she isn’t certain that there is anyone on the planet even capable of casting true resurrection.

Ancalagon
2011-11-21, 12:07 PM
Having read 816... I fail to see why Nale was added as he was. He was not needed where he was (neither was Sabine). Thog and Zz'dtri and the Kobold would have been fully sufficient to do what they did (Thog to notify the Order about Nale being there and to die (if he did) and Zz'dtri to remove Vaarsuvius from the stage).

All Nale and Sabine did was to add a null-round of fight and add a climatic LG-battle before the actual climatic LG-battle. The second (real) climatic LG-battle totally lost drama due to this strange null-round.

Is there any stoytelling reason for Nale and Sabine being there I missed? The confrontation with the Lizreaper was cool, but cool enough to sacrifice the actual story-climax?

The explanation could be to have Nale and the Order starting at the line when they are running for the gate. But Sabine could teleport ahead (she should not approach Girard alone?) and spoil that. Durkon could Wind-Walk and spoil that. Tarquin could hand out those flying horses he has (Nale could have stolen one). I actually think this is the reason for Nale being in the city: Giving him and the Order an equal starting time and an equal distance towards Girard.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-11-21, 12:39 PM
Is there any stoytelling reason for Nale and Sabine being there I missed?
Because Nale is a total egomaniac who needs to personally defeat Elan all while getting a chance to gloat about it, for one.

On a more practical level, he wanted to shut down the Order right away rather than bothering with a “race” plotline, and Thog, Z, and YukYuk would be outmatched by the order on their own. So, like it or not, he and Sabine had to step in somewhere.

But mostly because he is an Egomaniac.

LudiDrizzt
2011-11-21, 01:52 PM
Its good to sea that you can except you're limitations.

Fixed. Welcome.

thereaper
2011-11-21, 02:47 PM
I love how in this comic Haley seems to think it is easy to just grab a true resurrection, but then she spends all of Don’t Split the Party dutifully guarding Roy’s corpse because she isn’t certain that there is anyone on the planet even capable of casting true resurrection.

Keep in mind that heroes never have access to the same resources that villains do (never mind the power of Plot, which decrees that a villain will keep coming back until they have served their purpose in the story).

It's a lot harder to get a PC raised than a villain (especially one who has infernal backing).

Gift Jeraff
2011-11-21, 02:56 PM
Plus, Haley correctly assumes that Zz'dtri still works for him, and we know Z has access to conjuration spells, which would make searching the multiverse for someone capable of true resurrection considerably easier (even if it still is extremely difficult).

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-11-21, 03:04 PM
Keep in mind that heroes never have access to the same resources that villains do (never mind the power of Plot, which decrees that a villain will keep coming back until they have served their purpose in the story).
Well it is hard for a villain to have access to a resource that doesn’t even exist. Which would be the case if there were no level 17+ clerics in the OotS-verse. Power of Plot is the only thing a villain that needs a nonexistent level 17 cleric has to keep going. And if Haley was taking that into account, it only proves how bad she had it for Elan. :smalltongue:

That said, I was more hinting that her experience with Roy may have given her a better perspective on how difficult it can actually be to raise a friend.

Unisus
2011-11-21, 03:05 PM
I love how in this comic Haley seems to think it is easy to just grab a true resurrection, but then she spends all of Don’t Split the Party dutifully guarding Roy’s corpse because she isn’t certain that there is anyone on the planet even capable of casting true resurrection.

Actually she thinks it may be easy for a bunch of people who know people (...) to get the ressources and find someone to cast the spell. And we know that Haley knows about how this whole RPG-thing functions. IF there is a way, a villain can come back, then he will do so.

This said, there was another reason to drag Roy's corpse around - else she would have had to leave Belkar behind. For Ressurection itself it would have been enough to take a part of Roy's corpse with her.

Math_Mage
2011-11-21, 04:18 PM
Having read 816... I fail to see why Nale was added as he was. He was not needed where he was (neither was Sabine). Thog and Zz'dtri and the Kobold would have been fully sufficient to do what they did (Thog to notify the Order about Nale being there and to die (if he did) and Zz'dtri to remove Vaarsuvius from the stage).

All Nale and Sabine did was to add a null-round of fight and add a climatic LG-battle before the actual climatic LG-battle. The second (real) climatic LG-battle totally lost drama due to this strange null-round.

Is there any stoytelling reason for Nale and Sabine being there I missed? The confrontation with the Lizreaper was cool, but cool enough to sacrifice the actual story-climax?

The explanation could be to have Nale and the Order starting at the line when they are running for the gate. But Sabine could teleport ahead (she should not approach Girard alone?) and spoil that. Durkon could Wind-Walk and spoil that. Tarquin could hand out those flying horses he has (Nale could have stolen one). I actually think this is the reason for Nale being in the city: Giving him and the Order an equal starting time and an equal distance towards Girard.

It would be totally out of character for Nale not to show up in a clash between LG and OotS. If it were Tarquin, yeah, he'd keep his eye on the prize and head straight for Girard. But Nale specializes in overcomplicated plots for mirror-image conflicts, with himself and Elan in starring roles.

Plus, as far as I can tell, Nale's motive for wanting to get to a Gate has more to do with "Because the OotS wants one" (and maybe "Because Sabine told me we should have one") than any independent motive. So when given the option to confront his main goal directly, why would he hesitate?

veti
2011-11-21, 05:32 PM
Well it is hard for a villain to have access to a resource that doesn’t even exist. Which would be the case if there were no level 17+ clerics in the OotS-verse. Power of Plot is the only thing a villain that needs a nonexistent level 17 cleric has to keep going. And if Haley was taking that into account, it only proves how bad she had it for Elan. :smalltongue:

Not really. The villain is run by the DM, therefore they have access to whatever resources they need to make sure they are a threat on whatever level they're supposed to be (e.g. a ready-made army of hobgoblins). If they need a 17th level cleric, one will miraculously turn up (even if he has to be Gated in from another plane of existence, or a whole different campaign for the purpose). Either that or they'll have some alternative means of getting back (can't you just imagine Nale as a revenant?).

Haley subconsciously understands this, but is showing just enough genre-blindness not to think it through to the logical conclusion (that there's no point doing anything with the LG, since they'll turn up anyway when the plot calls for them.

Reprimand
2011-11-21, 05:43 PM
As far as Thog goes it's probably going to end up just like the Drow, eventually reappearing far later in the comic even after everyone thought he was dead.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-11-21, 05:44 PM
Not really. The villain is run by the DM, therefore they have access to whatever resources they need to make sure they are a threat on whatever level they're supposed to be (e.g. a ready-made army of hobgoblins). If they need a 17th level cleric, one will miraculously turn up (even if he has to be Gated in from another plane of existence, or a whole different campaign for the purpose). Either that or they'll have some alternative means of getting back (can't you just imagine Nale as a revenant?).
There is no DM in the OotS-verse.

As far as games are concerned: If the DM has the villain find a 17th-level cleric, even if the PCs cannot find said cleric, the DM has just admitted the 17th-level cleric does exist somewhere in the game universe.

Querzis
2011-11-21, 05:53 PM
...Well as a big fan of the biggest bastard who ever lived, Nale, I cant say that I would have wanted him to die so quick after only getting back in the comic after so much time. And from a storytelling purpose, I have absolutely no frigging clue why you would want this to happen either. Pretty much nothing concerning the archfiends, Sabine and Nale relationship, Tarquin sons issues or Elan brother issues have been resolved yet and you have the nerve to say thats its anticlimatic that he got away? Especially considering the fact that I know from other threads that you would have wanted him to die from a frigging two spell combo from Malack? Dont you even realize the hypocrisy of that because, personally, I cannot imagine anything more anticlimatic then Malack just killing Nale off like that.

I mean you keep saying that you want «closure». Ok, what would you have considered closure? Nale dying woudnt have been it, hes still too important for the story and it would leave tons of unanswered question and buildup that went nowhere. Him getting captured is pretty much just as worse because Tarquin and Malack would just execute him. So please tell me what exactly would you have wanted and please keep in mind that nobody else wanted to see Nale getting two-shot by Malack like you did (well, maybe they did because they hate Nale mind you but nobody else thought that would have been good storytelling.)