Caster dominance

[Ducklord]

We all know, that casters are theoretically much stronger than other characters, especially at higher levels. But in actual gameplay how often has that been an issue in your games?

This is what I observed during campaigns I played in:

lvl 1-5: Melee characters dominate combat, skill monkeys dominate utility. In the earlier levels casters have only a few spells, and usually they end up using a lot of them on buffs to keep themselves alive, so they can actually run out of things to do during combat. Out of combat they can detect magic and identify, and some times charm NPC or be useful in some other way, but only on rare occasions.

lvl 6-10: Melee still dominates combat. Smart casters buff them and make them kick even more ass, but don't get that much action themselves. They do become formidable out of combat though. Teleport, Dispel magic etc become available and can really change the game.

lvl 11-15: Ok, now casters really begin to kick ass. They can still be hurt though and have to rely on other party members for protection in combat. The rest of th party relies on them for battlefield control and buffs, but would be able to survive even on their own. Out of combat there are few things they can't do.

lvl 16-20: I've rarely played a game to such levels, but when I did casters really dominated. They have so many tricks up their sleeve that nothing can surprise them by now and the rest of the party serves mainly as a distraction for the monsters.

Have you experienced something similar, or were my groups simply low-op?

[Gnaeus]

We all know, that casters are theoretically much stronger than other characters, especially at higher levels. But in actual gameplay how often has that been an issue in your games?

This is what I observed during campaigns I played in:

lvl 1-5: Melee characters dominate combat, skill monkeys dominate utility. In the earlier levels casters have only a few spells, and usually they end up using a lot of them on buffs to keep themselves alive, so they can actually run out of things to do during combat. Out of combat they can detect magic and identify, and some times charm NPC or be useful in some other way, but only on rare occasions.

lvl 6-10: Melee still dominates combat. Smart casters buff them and make them kick even more ass, but don't get that much action themselves. They do become formidable out of combat though. Teleport, Dispel magic etc become available and can really change the game.
Have you experienced something similar, or were my groups simply low-op?

A little bit low-op.

Druids pet is as good as most melee 1-10. Add wildshape and the druid is better melee than fighter, while casting, by level 6.

Cleric may or may not (depending on build) be as good as some melee 1-5. With his heavy armor and bab 1 point behind the fighter, he does not need to buff himself to be good in melee.

Wizard can end many fights with sleep and color spray, starting at level 1. Many wizards can cast one of these spells in each combat (assuming 4 encounter day). By level 3 when alter self and glitterdust enter the mix, wizard is a very powerful combatant.

[TroubleBrewing]

My experience has changed with the evolution of our current group. When we first started out, ours looked quite similar to yours, but it now looks more like this:

Level 1-5: Melee types and casters are on relatively even footing, provided we stick to 4 encounters per day. Skillmonkeys haven't really come into their own yet.

Level 6-10: Casters totally overtake mundane melee. Skillmonkeys come into their own. Gishes see real use here, because they don't lose TOO much power from their melee side.

Level 11-20: All casters, all the time. Skillmonkeys cease to be useful, because There's A Spell For That. Mundane melee hasn't been relevant in 6-15 levels. Gishes are significantly less well-off than casters who also kick face, such as Druid and Cleric.

[Psyren]

6-10 and 11-15, your casters aren't trying especially hard if those are the results you're seeing.

Consider at level 7, a caster can polymorph into a hydra or gelatinous cube and wade into melee. At level 9, arcanists get lesser planar binding and the DM has to start being pretty heavy-handed to keep the game intact. Metamagic becomes more of a factor at these levels too.

[Gullintanni]

My experience has changed with the evolution of our current group. When we first started out, ours looked quite similar to yours, but it now looks more like this:

Level 1-5: Melee types and casters are on relatively even footing, provided we stick to 4 encounters per day. Skillmonkeys haven't really come into their own yet.

Level 6-10: Casters totally overtake mundane melee. Skillmonkeys come into their own. Gishes see real use here, because they don't lose TOO much power from their melee side.

Level 11-20: All casters, all the time. Skillmonkeys cease to be useful, because There's A Spell For That. Mundane melee hasn't been relevant in 6-15 levels. Gishes are significantly less well-off than casters who also kick face, such as Druid and Cleric.

Assuming you don't stick to a 4 encounter day, and every day is a bit more of an endurance trial, Skillmonkeys and Mundane melee stay relevant a tiny bit longer...at least until the Wizard has enough spell slots to keep up.

Melee has to focus on dealing damage, spell slots can't be prepared frivolously, so there's a strong incentive for Wizards and the like to avoid preparing spells that overlap with a skillmonkey's niche. Still, much further past level 7 and there are enough slots to go around generally speaking.

[Eldariel]

In more recent games I've played (you could call it "post-learning-to-play"), on low levels, casters do lion's share of the work in hard encounters and use (Cross)bows and cantrips in the easier ones while warrior types clean those up. Talking especially levels 1-2 here (due to conventions and Pathfinder Society, I've played a lot of superlowlevel games even though I personally dislike the random death chance).

For instance, when we encountered a Devil in one of the PF paths, simple Color Spray did what a dozen attacks would not have done (it has damage reduction that a level 1 party is ill-equipped to penetrate and it flied), easily at any rate. Against a few Lemures, Grease really evened the battlefield and other than that it was mostly Daze with one Enlarge Person and some Crossbow Bolts (and obvious Detect Magic) on those particular paths. This is usually how it goes; warriors clean up and kill encounters not worth spells while spellcaster supports and breaks out the big guns for the harder fights.

The paradigm shifts a bit level 3 when caster capacity doubles; they have the capacity to do full days themselves though more likely they'll now dedicate a slot or two on defensive spells. Level 1 bombs like Color Spray and Sleep still remain viable too so the caster's offense is quite versatile and deep at this point. Usually there's a decent spread of threats for each class on these levels (as martials tend to pick up few cute tricks around these points too) and contributions are similar though obviously mages mostly use AOEs while martials are still single-target so against large numbers of enemies, especially if you can funnel them with terrain for instance, mages tend to do more with the same actions. I recall mages disabling hordes of Goblins and groups of Ogres with single spells, though never lethally (truly useful lethal magic comes later). Invisibility is probably the single biggest game-changer on these levels (sans Alter Self).

Level 5, Mages begin to do funny stuff like flying, screwing with time and all that. 3.5 Mages have had the capacity to fly for a bit but given our distaste for Polymorph-line, that rarely pans out. This is where mages really begin pulling ahead in my experience, compared to less impressively built warriors. Warriors with more adept craft can still keep up alright but obviously casters begin screwing with reality more-so than just the adversaries you might encounter at this point. Dispel Magic coming into play also reinforces the "magic vs. magic" dynamic.

Level 7, all the big spells come into play and casters can do pretty much whatever they want. Even without Polymorph, Tentacles, Solid Fog, Confusion & co. represent more than considerable power and people, I find, begin to strongly prefer playing caster characters in parties of this level (if the game is not limited, of course; I'm not bringing experiences of Tier-limited games into this since obviously they're not really telling of the whole picture - this is just of open games with few restrictions).


After that it's more or less a spiral where the game boils more and more to NPC mages/magical monsters vs. PC mages as magic gets harder and harder to deal with without specific spells. Which, of course, is why most people begin playing casters at this point.

[TroubleBrewing]

Assuming you don't stick to a 4 encounter day, and every day is a bit more of an endurance trial, Skillmonkeys and Mundane melee stay relevant a tiny bit longer...at least until the Wizard has enough spell slots to keep up.

This is half right. If you have fewer than 4 encounters per day, the Wizard can nova. If you have more, the party dies because everyone is out of heals. Length of individual encounters has very little to do with it, as there is very little that full casters cannot solve with one spell and proper planning.


Melee has to focus on dealing damage, spell slots can't be prepared frivolously, so there's a strong incentive for Wizards and the like to avoid preparing spells that overlap with a skillmonkey's niche.

Damage is a very inefficient way of killing things. Further, the staple spells just happen to override the skillmonkey. Knock is a 2nd level spell. Invisibility is too. By 3rd level, the Wizard is the Rogue.

[Psyren]

Assuming you don't stick to a 4 encounter day, and every day is a bit more of an endurance trial, Skillmonkeys and Mundane melee stay relevant a tiny bit longer...at least until the Wizard has enough spell slots to keep up.

Melee has to focus on dealing damage, spell slots can't be prepared frivolously, so there's a strong incentive for Wizards and the like to avoid preparing spells that overlap with a skillmonkey's niche. Still, much further past level 7 and there are enough slots to go around generally speaking.

"more encounters" can easily screw over the melee too, though. They may not have expendable resources like slots or power points, but they're also not going to be keen about going into battle with their magical artillery/buffbots running on empty.

Also, once the casters realize you're running encounter-heavy days, they can plan for that by crafting wands, taking reserve feats, relying on longer-duration buffs etc.


Damage is a very inefficient way of killing things. Further, the staple spells just happen to override the skillmonkey. Knock is a 2nd level spell. Invisibility is too. By 3rd level, the Wizard is the Rogue.

It's perhaps more accurate to say that the Wizard can be the rogue. But expending your phenomenal arcane power on mimicking a T4 class is far more inefficient than simply letting the skillmonkey do his thing and focusing on the areas nobody else can do. I'd much rather prepare Alter Self than Knock for instance.

Of course, if a door/chest looks especially dangerous or suspicious, no reason not to have your celestial monkey open it instead of Bob the Halfling.

[TroubleBrewing]

Oh, reserve feats. After we ran a 4-person, all-caster party with our former DM, we have had a gentleman's agreement not to use them.

The day just never ended.

[Gullintanni]

Damage is a very inefficient way of killing things. Further, the staple spells just happen to override the skillmonkey. Knock is a 2nd level spell. Invisibility is too. By 3rd level, the Wizard is the Rogue.

Indeed, it's inefficient...but the Wizard at Level 6-7 can't play with Schroedinger's spell list. For every spell slot he prepares, there's an opportunity cost. Prepare Knock, and that's one less time you can prep Glitterdust, meaning one less encounter you can end. Invisibility doesn't end encounters...at level 6, that means you've got one...perhaps two more spell slots available.

Spell conservation at this level requires that you let the skillmonkey be the Rogue and the Melee deal the damage (In this case Druids are the exception as they don't really run out of steam).


"more encounters" can easily screw over the melee too, though. They may not have expendable resources like slots or power points, but they're also not going to be keen about going into battle with their magical artillery/buffbots running on empty.

Also, once the casters realize you're running encounter-heavy days, they can plan for that by crafting wands, taking reserve feats, relying on longer-duration buffs etc.

All valid stuff. But then the party is spending resources making sub-optimal feat and WBL choices just to compensate. And a wand of CLW will keep melee going throughout encounters.

Most "artillery" reserve feats don't bring more damage to an encounter than most melee can dish out, and the utility ones, typically aren't that broken. Though the one that allows you to maintain a bottomless HP buffer can be problematic...but even then, it's less problematic than say DMM: Persist or Arcane Thesis.

My point is that at low levels, Melee and Skillmonkeys both have a role, in that if you have a Skillmonkey in the party, your Wizard doesn't have to prepare Knock, and your artillery, so to speak, lasts longer. Still, as I said, this doesn't last very long after 6th level.

[OracleofWuffing]

Of course, if a door/chest looks especially dangerous or suspicious, no reason not to have your celestial monkey open it instead of Bob the Halfling.
And later on, you can polymorph Bob into a celestial monkey! :smalltongue:

[TroubleBrewing]

My point is that at low levels, Melee and Skillmonkeys both have a role, in that if you have a Skillmonkey in the party, your Wizard doesn't have to prepare Knock, and your artillery, so to speak, lasts longer. Still, as I said, this doesn't last very long after 6th level.

I would argue that it doesn't last longer than 5th, or even 3rd. By 3rd level, a Human Cleric has DMM. (1 extend, 1human persist, 3 Divine Metamagic)

Skillmonkey is one of those things that I don't think any party would turn down, though. Melee is less certain. Why would a party accept someone into the group who might end up being a liability, because he can't provide for himself? Skillmonkey can usually UMD his way out of stuff. Mundane melee (Barbarian, Paladin, Fighter, Samurai, Monk, etc. Deliberately excluding ToB/MoI/XPH classes here, because they're 'non-mundane'.) can't do that.

[Psyren]

All valid stuff. But then the party is spending resources making sub-optimal feat and WBL choices just to compensate.

I get your opportunity cost argument, but I take issue with this terminology. Tailoring your feats and items to the type of campaign you're in is not "suboptimal" - that's what you're supposed to do.

(You want to know what's really suboptimal? Running out of juice and getting killed :smalltongue:)

[TroubleBrewing]

(You want to know what's really suboptimal? Running out of juice and getting killed :smalltongue:)

Probably the only way to go lower on the Optimization Graph is to run out of juice and get killed at a level where Raise Dead is unavailable, and it would seem inefficient to resurrect that character through any other means.

[Gullintanni]

I would argue that it doesn't last longer than 5th, or even 3rd. By 3rd level, a Human Cleric has DMM. (1 extend, 1human persist, 3 Divine Metamagic)

Skillmonkey is one of those things that I don't think any party would turn down, though. Melee is less certain. Why would a party accept someone into the group who might end up being a liability, because he can't provide for himself? Skillmonkey can usually UMD his way out of stuff. Mundane melee (Barbarian, Paladin, Fighter, Samurai, Monk, etc. Deliberately excluding ToB/MoI/XPH classes here, because they're 'non-mundane'.) can't do that.

DMM: Persist is probably the most powerful option in terms of extending a given adventuring day though. If your group doesn't take it, what then? For High-Op casters, then where exactly they pick up dominion over the game is a floating target and I'll agree that that target is probably around 5th level.

The problem with DMM at level 3 is that a lot of the stuff you can persist at that point isn't game breaking in and of itself. It's still an extremely powerful option, obviously, I'm just not sure that that means DMM clerics dominate the game at 3rd level. 5th gives access to 3rd level spells though, and a couple of those, when Persisted, can change the campaign forever.

Barbarians and Rangers I think are the exception when it comes to Mundane Melee. Barbarians with the appropriate ACFs have enough raw power to get themselves out of most situations if they play smart, and Rangers...well...Wildshape Ranger pretty much eliminates all their problems. Paladins and Fighters suffer from being poorly designed classes as we all know and Monk...well, better off not going there, right?

Still, as inefficient as melee damage is, it's only limited by the HP of your primary Melee, and assuming the characters are played well, then Barbarians, and Wildshape Rangers are perfectly serviceable right up until about level 6. They're not the liability, IMHO, that you think they are. A Wizard who's out of spells (or who prepared knock three times trying to cover the skillmonkey role :smalltongue:) is a much bigger liability.


I get your opportunity cost argument, but I take issue with this terminology. Tailoring your feats and items to the type of campaign you're in is not "suboptimal" - that's what you're supposed to do.

(You want to know what's really suboptimal? Running out of juice and getting killed :smalltongue:)

Well...suboptimal in the sense of it not being the height of power. But yes, running out of juice and getting killed is by far the greater evil, you are correct sir. :smalltongue:

[Kantolin]

My group is amazingly low-optimization.

Generally, all levels has everyone doing something or other. The casters usually handle various levels of utility while the frontliners do more damage in combat.

Once in awhile we have problems with usually fly, spider climb, or knock (Our casters tend to prefer those, and they sometimes make our skill monkeys sad), but generally we're of the 'Eh, we have a rogue, no need for knock except for maybe a scroll of it for emergencies' variety on that route.

Out of combat, our casters tend to do neat things like teleport and the like. In combat, our casters tend to be mostly unoptimized blasters who apply metamagic without reduction and things of that sort. I'm generally the party's balance monitor, so when someone trips into something overpowered I'm usually the one to note it (Or when we trip into something that's not overpowered but seems it, I note there too).

It generally works out. We've never had anyone feel absolutely useless, and we've been in a party with a soulknife or a party with a monk.

Now, that said, if you went with 'most important party member', at high levels that's easily the casters who can do a bunch of stuff - blade barriers and mass heals are more important to the party as a whole than more damage.

If you went with 'least important party member', that's when the monk realized that the 2d6 damage he was doing was equivalent to a greatsword, but he wasn't adding half-again strength (The soulknife knew what he was getting into).

But in no case were either of these party members sitting on their hands or lording it over the party - we just would succeed as a whole and be happy about it. And cheer extra loud when a familiar or something would get the killing blow since it's funniest ^_^

We're all then quite content not to be playing rocket launcher tag nor optimizing further.

[killem2]

I'm going down the path of wizard myself. While I personally can see where I can make classes redundant, if you have a rogue, why bother doing their job if they can do it? I don't want to go creeping around in some dungeon ahead of the party. :yuk:

I, would rather be slinging spells and confusing my enemies. :smallamused:

[Emperor Tippy]

Depends on the party and play style.

Wizard can dominate from level 1.

Sanctum Spell, Arcane Thesis: Magic Missile, Fell Drain get's you MM's that deal 2 negative levels each out of a first level slot.

You will kill any first or second level fighter with a single one of those; and when you need the feats again you can just replace them.

Usually, everyone can contribute up to about level 7-10. The casters will still be noticeably more valuable but they don't achieve supremacy.

Above 15th level, casters are truly supreme.

[dextercorvia]

Depends on the party and play style.

Wizard can dominate from level 1.

Sanctum Spell, Arcane Thesis: Magic Missile, Fell Drain get's you MM's that deal 2 negative levels each out of a first level slot.

You will kill any first or second level fighter with a single one of those; and when you need the feats again you can just replace them.

Usually, everyone can contribute up to about level 7-10. The casters will still be noticeably more valuable but they don't achieve supremacy.

Above 15th level, casters are truly supreme.

Arcane Thesis is not available to a 1st level character, without supreme cheese. You don't need Sanctum spell, but both Sanctum and Fell Drain require another metamagic feat as a prereq.

[Tyndmyr]

Probably the only way to go lower on the Optimization Graph is to run out of juice and get killed at a level where Raise Dead is unavailable, and it would seem inefficient to resurrect that character through any other means.

Not really. Persist abuse will help you get more mileage out of buff slots. Consumables are frequently very efficient for handling certain things(like healing!), allowing you to further extend your slots. Certain reserve feats are also viable.

Long workdays are not a big deal for casters, really. They are a problem for people who have a lot of 1/day, 3/day abilities and the like. Or those who rely heavily on stats/hp, and have no way to replenish either.

[Emperor Tippy]

Arcane Thesis is not available to a 1st level character, without supreme cheese. You don't need Sanctum spell, but both Sanctum and Fell Drain require another metamagic feat as a prereq.

Well yes, but it's still possible. :smallwink:

[Tyndmyr]

Arcane Thesis is not available to a 1st level character, without supreme cheese. You don't need Sanctum spell, but both Sanctum and Fell Drain require another metamagic feat as a prereq.

Fell Drained Sonic Snaps require only a single metamagic reducer at level 1. This is easily achievable, and is quite light on feats. It'll drop much of the stuff you face at level one in a single spell, with no attack roll or save.

Neither FD or a metamagic reducer is such a bad feat that you're hurting yourself if retraining is prohibited, as well.

For the even more limited, Color Spray/Sleep and a Scythe are sufficient to make a wizard quite lethal at level one.

[navar100]

My experience is there hasn't been any problems at all. The warrior players cheer on the spellcasters going all Voldemort on the bad guys. As for their own characters, they always contribute to the combat. Bad guys don't ignore them. Their own abilities matter. They participate equally. Not every bad guy is an iteration of a large four legged flying creature with 10ft reach and DR. Tripping is a useful tactic. Disarming is a useful tactic. Two-weapon fighting is a useful tactic. No warrior player ever complains of suckage just because they can't use such tactics for every combat every round all the time. They just do something else. They can use skills, including Fighters. Not every opponent for opposed rolls outclasses them by 10 or more. Not every DC is 25 or higher.

Spellcasters don't mind casting buff spells. It's a useful tactic. There is no resentment if the Fighter "needs" a Fly spell. There's no resentment to cast Displacement on the Barbarian so that his already relatively low lowered AC while raging is irrelevant. It's called teamwork. Spellcasters do not win the combat every day all the time by themselves. They don't always have the right spell for the right moment at the right time. Bad guys actually do make their saving throws from time to time.

[dextercorvia]

Well yes, but it's still possible. :smallwink:

I generally draw the line at selling my spellbook to afford polymorphing into a Dusk Giant, and Psychic Reformation. Also, you have to spread the negative levels out in order to get them both. Fell Drain Magic Missile can deal a negative level to any thing that it targets, but only one per target per casting.


Fell Drained Sonic Snaps require only a single metamagic reducer at level 1. This is easily achievable, and is quite light on feats. It'll drop much of the stuff you face at level one in a single spell, with no attack roll or save.

Neither FD or a metamagic reducer is such a bad feat that you're hurting yourself if retraining is prohibited, as well.

For the even more limited, Color Spray/Sleep and a Scythe are sufficient to make a wizard quite lethal at level one.

True. I was not saying that Fell Drain was beyond the reach of a 1st level character, nor that it wasn't worthwhile. My only point was that it didn't work as stated.

I'm a big fan of Fell Drain. Shape spell also gets a lot of play at early levels. It is a big boon to spells like Grease, Caltrops, Hail of Stone.

Metamagic School Focus makes reducers attainable at low levels if Dragon magazine is off the table.