Sneak Attack with Spells?

[RndmNumGen]

What are the rules for using Sneak Attack with spells? Back during the OotS Thieves' Guild arc, Chuck used a Sneak Attack Acid Arrow on Belkar. I hadn't thought much of it until I was looking at the Arcane Trickster class on the PFSRD, and noticed it's capstone allowed it to apply Sneak Attack damage to spells. The 3.5 version of Arcane Trickster doesn't have this though, which is what OotS is based on. Did this change between 3.5 and PF or something?

[Terazul]

Sneak Attack has applied to (weapon-like) spells since the beginning, but I believe it was clarified in... Complete Arcane? Basically if the spell requires an attack roll, be it touch, ranged touch, or regular, it can benefit from sneak attack damage (when the conditions apply) in the same way that it can benefit from critical hits (20/x2). The type of damage will be the same as whatever type the spell does (So it would be +d6s of acid damage on Arrow, for example), except with ability damage, in which case it becomes negative energy.

The exception being ray spells that produce multiple attacks like Scorching ray; In which case I believe you can only apply it for one of the rays versus the target.

But this is just off the top of my head so I may be completely wrong.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Terazul is correct. If a spell has an attack role, you can sneak attack with it (assuming SA conditions are met). Note that the damage from SA is the same as the type of damage the spell does. Exception being spells that deal negative levels deal negative energy damage. Because 1d4+10d6 Negative levels is just plain broken.

[Zherog]

Note that the "Surprise Spells" of the PF arcane trickster allows sneak attack on any spell that deals damage - whether or not it had an attack roll. So, for example, you could sneak attack with a fireball. That's the point of the class's capstone.

[Curmudgeon]

The "Weaponlike Spells" rules are in Complete Arcane on pages 85-86. Applicability to sneak attack is discussed on page 86. To qualify as a weaponlike spell it must both have an attack roll and deal damage. Acid Arrow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidArrow.htm) qualifies; no special PrC ability is required.

[Zherog]

Yes, sorry if I wasn't clear. The Pathfinder arcane trickster capstone removes the first of those conditions - needing an attack roll.

[leegi0n]

Spellwarp Sniper from Complete Scoundrel, is another good example of a caster that gets SA mod's.

[Venger]

Terazul is correct. If a spell has an attack role, you can sneak attack with it (assuming SA conditions are met). Note that the damage from SA is the same as the type of damage the spell does. Exception being spells that deal negative levels deal negative energy damage. Because 1d4+10d6 Negative levels is just plain broken.

it was indeed CArc. it also specifies that spells that deal ability damage deal their SA damage as negative energy damage because 1d6int+10d6int is similarly broken

[leegi0n]

When you start stacking admixture and energy substitution with split ray (spellwarp sniper), it gets uber-sick, too.

....let's just say at level 10+, for example, a split fireball/cold ray+SA damage could half, if not finish off most mid/mid-high HD.

[RndmNumGen]

Note that the "Surprise Spells" of the PF arcane trickster allows sneak attack on any spell that deals damage - whether or not it had an attack roll. So, for example, you could sneak attack with a fireball. That's the point of the class's capstone.

So... say you were a Wizard 3/Rogue 3/Arcane Trickster 10. You could cast a Widened Sneak Attack Firefall to deal 5d6+7d6 Fire Damage to everyone within 120 ft?

I don't care how bad blasting is, that's awesome :smallbiggrin:

[Zherog]

Almost.

You'd do 10d6 (from the spell) plus 7d6 (from sneak attack). Arcane Trickster adds one caster level for every class level, so you'd have a caster level of 13.


Surprise Spells: At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.

[Venger]

Almost.

You'd do 10d6 (from the spell) plus 7d6 (from sneak attack). Arcane Trickster adds one caster level for every class level, so you'd have a caster level of 13.

yes. SA that's not from arcane trickster only works on 'weaponlike spells" which mean the kind that you make an attack roll for.

[Stone Heart]

Where does it say that? I don't see why it would only add your sneak attack damage from your Arcane trickster levels. Can you elaborate?

Edit: Oh, did you mean without the ability thats the only way to apply sneak attack damage to spells without attack rolls?

[Venger]

Where does it say that? I don't see why it would only add your sneak attack damage from your Arcane trickster levels. Can you elaborate?

Edit: Oh, did you mean without the ability thats the only way to apply sneak attack damage to spells without attack rolls?

Yes, I'd be happy to

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneTrickster.htm

check out "impromptu sneak attack"


Impromptu Sneak Attack
Beginning at 3rd level, once per day an arcane trickster can declare one melee or ranged attack he makes to be a sneak attack (the target can be no more than 30 feet distant if the impromptu sneak attack is a ranged attack). The target of an impromptu sneak attack loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, but only against that attack. The power can be used against any target, but creatures that are not subject to critical hits take no extra damage (though they still lose any Dexterity bonus to AC against the attack).

what this means is that you can declare a melee or ranged attack (such as a ray) to be a sneak attack even if it doesn't normally meet the prereqs for a sneak attack (your enemy isn't either flat-footed or flanked by you)

in 3.5, you can use this 1/day at 3rd lvl and 2/day at 7th lvl, which was changed in pathfinder as the earlier link said, since it was from the pathfinder SRD

otherwise, in order to sneak attack with a spell, you have to meet the following conditions:

-you must qualify for SA (flank or deny dex mod)
-it must be a "weaponlike spell" (a spell with an attack roll, most often a ray)

once you've got those down, you're fine and you deal your SA dice as whatever type of damage the spell was (as in the example above, fire for a fire spell, although fireball does not qualify to add SA onto since there is no attack roll, but the gist is the same)

this ability (impromptu SA) does not actually let you put SA damage onto spells without attack rolls since it specifies a melee or ranged attack roll, so you couldn't use a normal spell like fireball which has no roll, just a save that the enemy must make.

in any event, you don't just add SA from your arcane trickster levels when you make an impromptu SA, but SA from all the levels you have with SA. in the example above, rog3 gives 2d6 and arcane trickster 10 gives 5d6 for a total of 7d6 damage. if your wiz3/rog3/arane trickster10 used SA on, say, a ray of flame, for example, then you would deal the base damage of 5d6 fire with 7d6 SA which would be converted to fire damage for 12d6 fire damage

if you were able to catch your target flatfooted or deny its dex, you could do this without using your impromptu SA of the day. this is what I meant with "SA that's not from arcane trickster" SA always stacks

if you weren't able to get him flatfooted or w/o dex, you could burn an impromptu SA use for the day and zap him anyway since you are making a ranged attack. this is what I meant by arcane trickster's special SA ability.

they can only do that at-will in pathfinder though. I think this thread was about 3.5, unless I'm mistaken

[Zherog]

Except we're talking about the Pathfinder version of the class, which is a little bit different... The 3.5 version of impromptu sneak attack doesn't matter. What matters is the capstone for the PF version.

[TroubleBrewing]

I think this thread was about 3.5, unless I'm mistaken

You are. It's cool, though. :smalltongue:

[Venger]

Except we're talking about the Pathfinder version of the class, which is a little bit different... The 3.5 version of impromptu sneak attack doesn't matter. What matters is the capstone for the PF version.


You are. It's cool, though. :smalltongue:

Okay, sorry guys. :smallredface:

[RndmNumGen]

Almost.

You'd do 10d6 (from the spell) plus 7d6 (from sneak attack). Arcane Trickster adds one caster level for every class level, so you'd have a caster level of 13.

10d6? Doesn't Firefall only do 5d6?

[Ravens_cry]

10d6? Doesn't Firefall only do 5d6?
It is 1d6 per caster level, max 10d6 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm) plus the sneak attack, houserules excepting.
Pathfinder Fireball (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fireball) works the same way.

[Quietus]

10d6? Doesn't Firefall only do 5d6?

I think he assumed that Firefall was a mistyping of Fireball.

[Ravens_cry]

I think he assumed that Firefall was a mistyping of Fireball.

Oops, didn't catch that. Is Firefall even a spell?

[Venger]

Oops, didn't catch that. Is Firefall even a spell?

No, firefall is not a spell. (phrased in awkward complete sentence so post will show up)

[RndmNumGen]

No, firefall is not a spell. (phrased in awkward complete sentence so post will show up)

It's a Pathfinder spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/firefall). Sorta like an advanced Pyrotechnics. Since we were talking about the PF Arcane Trickster's capstone, I was referencing a PF spell, though I can see how that would be confusing.

[Venger]

It's a Pathfinder spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/firefall). Sorta like an advanced Pyrotechnics. Since we were talking about the PF Arcane Trickster's capstone, I was referencing a PF spell, though I can see how that would be confusing.

whoops! I'm 0 for 2.

[Ravens_cry]

It's a Pathfinder spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/firefall). Sorta like an advanced Pyrotechnics. Since we were talking about the PF Arcane Trickster's capstone, I was referencing a PF spell, though I can see how that would be confusing.
That sounds like a very situational spell. The Mass Blindness effect is nice, but is just as likely to hit your own party as your enemies

[TroubleBrewing]

whoops! I'm 0 for 2.

Go for the hat trick!

[Stone Heart]

Yes, I'd be happy to *snip*

Ah see I was confused because your original post that I was responding to made it sound, to me at least, like you were saying that using the PF arcane trickster capstone would only apply sneak attack damage from your levels in arcane trickster and not your rogue levels, glad to see we are on the same page.

[RndmNumGen]

That sounds like a very situational spell. The Mass Blindness effect is nice, but is just as likely to hit your own party as your enemies

Yes, but it's a lot of fun for fighting armies if you can hit them from long range :smallbiggrin: See that sentry wayyy over there holding a torch? Woops, now everything is on fire!

[Ravens_cry]

Yes, but it's a lot of fun for fighting armies if you can hit them from long range :smallbiggrin: See that sentry wayyy over there holding a torch? Woops, now everything is on fire!
Or have the party archer sling a flaming arrow into the camp.
Blinding, Burning Burnation!

[Calanon]

Terazul is correct. If a spell has an attack role, you can sneak attack with it (assuming SA conditions are met). Note that the damage from SA is the same as the type of damage the spell does. Exception being spells that deal negative levels deal negative energy damage. Because 1d4+10d6 Negative levels is just plain broken.

Hmm... Sneak Attack Disintegrate... Sneak Attack Meteor Swarm... Sneak Attack Chain Lightning... NEVER really took the time to think about all the spells that require a ranged touch attack that can yield devastating results :smalleek:

[Ravens_cry]

Hmm... Sneak Attack Disintegrate... Sneak Attack Meteor Swarm... Sneak Attack Chain Lightning... NEVER really took the time to think about all the spells that require a ranged touch attack that can yield devastating results :smalleek:
And with the capstone, everything else that does damage. Actually, you need the capstone to Sneak Attack with Chain Lightning.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Hmm... Sneak Attack Disintegrate... Sneak Attack Meteor Swarm... Sneak Attack Chain Lightning... NEVER really took the time to think about all the spells that require a ranged touch attack that can yield devastating results :smalleek:

Unless it was changed in Pathfinder, Chain Lightning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chainLightning.htm)doesn't require an attack roll and thus can't apply Sneak Attack. Without PF Arcane Trickster's capstone of course.

EDIT: Underwater Swordsages!

[Calanon]

Unless it was changed in Pathfinder, Chain Lightning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chainLightning.htm)doesn't require an attack roll and thus can't apply Sneak Attack. Without PF Arcane Trickster's capstone of course.

EDIT: Underwater Swordsages!

I couldn't think of a 3rd spell that required a Ranged touch and i thought for a minute "Oh! chain lightning!" boy did I derp :smalltongue:

[Zherog]

It's a Pathfinder spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/firefall). Sorta like an advanced Pyrotechnics. Since we were talking about the PF Arcane Trickster's capstone, I was referencing a PF spell, though I can see how that would be confusing.

Wow! Totally missed the boat on that one! I appreciate Quietus giving me the benefit of the doubt and thinking I thought it was a typo. But, to be honest, I read fireball the whole time -- never even noticed it was firefall. :smallredface:

[leegi0n]

Add Greater Invisibility to the mix with Spellwarping/Admixing/Maximizing and you're taking out....well, a lot.