Optimise this

[nedz]

At a game recently we were lent some backup.
2x 4th level human fighters.
I had to assign the feats.

Given that the party is about 8th level, and that the only source allowed was the PH, the best I could think of was Skill Focus(Perform(Comedy)).

Their stats were Str 15, Con 14, Dex 11, Int 10, ... meh.
Equipment was a short sword - no missile weapons.

Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Unarmed Combat, Power Attack and Cleave are all obvious (I didn't say good, actually the first two are definately very poor).

What should I have assigned ?

[hex0]

PH only? :smalleek:

If their stats weren't so low, I'd suggest Improved Trip.

You should have chosen EWP: Spiked Chain, WF: Spiked Chain, WS: Spiked Chain, Toughness, Improved Initiative, and...Toughness.

Or since they are such a low level, Rapid Reload, Improved Initiative, Toughness, WF: Heavy Crossbow, WS: Heavy Crossbow.....and Toughness. :smallsigh:

[Menteith]

I'd like a bit more information, if possible. What kind of enemies will they be facing, and what kind of situation will they be in when they face the enemies?
If it's not a gimmick and CR appropriate to your party, they're going to get mauled on the frontlines, won't hit a target even without using Power Attack, and will never use Cleave.

[Rubik]

Don't worry about it and just sell their armor after they're dead?

Because they're going to die.

[nedz]

I used them to carry the bags and didn't bother choosing feats.
Its not a gimmick, it did happen and I was stuck.
Toughnessx6 seems their best bet for survivabilty:smallsigh:
To be fair to the DM they weren't meant for much more than I used them for.

As to enemies - I'm not sure you want to know.
Basically we were in an underground river - so no chance of supplies - and we had a Vampire and his minions (human mercs) after us. We did fine.

[sonofzeal]

Is SRD open? If so, get them a reach weapon of some sort, with Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill). They have decent odds of getting that to work... especially if you can argue it counts as a "Special Attack" and hence qualifies for Ability Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#abilityFocus). They don't have the dex for Combat Reflexes and they're still going to die horribly, but at least they can survive for a bit this way.

Spend the last two feats on anything. Heck, Weapon Focus/Specialization aren't bad here.

[DeAnno]

Spend the last two feats on anything. Heck, Weapon Focus/Specialization aren't bad here.

If they're already getting weapon focus, hilariously enough weapon spec is strictly better than ability focus: stand still (though they do stack).

[hex0]

Toughnessx6 seems their best bet for survivabilty:smallsigh:


Which is basically what I suggested. :smallwink: They would be best to stay in the back with a heavy crossbow and take shots and then run away when things get tough. Maybe the Run feat has a good use? :smalltongue:

[nedz]

Don't worry about it and just sell their armor after they're dead?
Because they're going to die.
I think that they may have had leather armour, so not much point to this; and keeping them alive would be good for IC reasons.


Is SRD open? If so, get them a reach weapon of some sort, with Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill). They have decent odds of getting that to work... especially if you can argue it counts as a "Special Attack" and hence qualifies for Ability Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#abilityFocus). They don't have the dex for Combat Reflexes and they're still going to die horribly, but at least they can survive for a bit this way.

Spend the last two feats on anything. Heck, Weapon Focus/Specialization aren't bad here.
The PH limit was due to DM apathy, I think. I suspect I could have pushed for a wider selection, but there didn't seem much point.
We were away from the shops and so neither reach weapons nor bows (etc) were viable.
There were plenty of rocks around though, so maybe they could throw things.

I think the best suggestions so far are probably
Improved Initiative and Run :smallamused:

[sonofzeal]

If they're already getting weapon focus, hilariously enough weapon spec is strictly better than ability focus: stand still (though they do stack).
Indeed. And a lvl 4 Fighter with both could get high enough numbers that even CR 8 challenges would routinely fail their Ref saves. The weak point is the attack roll, but I don't see a good way around that.

[jiriku]

Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Dungeoncrasher would actually be a pretty fair combo. Reliance on Dungeoncrasher rushes gets you out of having to deal with attack rolls, and a +6 on bull rush attempts isn't shabby against most Medium creatures. 4d6+4 is fair damage, too.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

If you actually had gear I'd say put them in heavy armor with tower shields and have them throw stuff with one hand and meatshield for any casters or real ranged characters.

With practically no gear I'd maximize survivability with multiple toughness feats and maybe run. Can you pick their skills? If they had max ranks in an appropriate craft they could craft a spear in a day and a longspear in two and a half days.

Average check 17 X DC 12 = 204 cp.

Most of the work would be in napping a worthwhile spearhead so it should be doable on the move without any tools or purchased materials; maybe a craft or survival check to find appropriate ones. This should allow them to act as a second rank presuming your first rank isn't utilizing reach.

[gorfnab]

Human Fighters
1. Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Spirited Charge
2. Trample
3. Weapon Focus: Lance
4. Power Attack or Weapon Specialization: Lance

[Emmerask]

They won´t ever survive any offensive action... so give them all the defensive stuff you can get then use them for aid another stuff, +8 to hit +8 to with a dc10 check which is doable (and yes aid another stacks) is quite nice even at level 8.
Can also be used for skill checks ^^

[hex0]

If you actually had gear I'd say put them in heavy armor with tower shields and have them throw stuff with one hand and meatshield for any casters or real ranged characters.


If more was allowed you could make a decent build out of using a tower shield and taking the Grenadier, Phalanax Fighting, and Mad Alchemist feats. :smallbiggrin:

[nedz]

Human Fighters
1. Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Spirited Charge
2. Trample
3. Weapon Focus: Lance
4. Power Attack or Weapon Specialization: Lance
Nice idea, but we are stuck in an underground river - in canoes.
Once we get out of the river - we will probably never see these guys again.


They won´t ever survive any offensive action... so give them all the defensive stuff you can get then use them for aid another stuff, +8 to hit +8 to with a dc10 check which is doable (and yes aid another stacks) is quite nice even at level 8.
Can also be used for skill checks ^^
Aid another is a good idea, but that would make them targets - though they ought to able to survive one hit.

[OracleofWuffing]

I think that they may have had leather armour, so not much point to this; and keeping them alive would be good for IC reasons.
Now when you say "keeping them alive," what, specifically, do you mean by that? Can we turn them into zombies? Dragons? Zombie-dragons?

[Draz74]

Hmmm ... did the party have access to Enlarge Person or Reduce Person? If so, I'd be tempted to give one of the mooks max Ride ranks, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, and Spirited Charge ...

... and have him ride piggyback on the other mook. :smallbiggrin: Who would probably take Toughness x3, EWP (Spiked Chain), Power Attack, and Cleave, or something like that.


Toughnessx6 seems their best bet for survivabilty:smallsigh:

Toughness (strangely) isn't a Fighter bonus feat, so that's not an option anyway.

[JaronK]

I'd recommend archery feats, and just buying them bows. Considering the level gap, keeping them back from the fights is the best possible option.

So, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, etc.

JaronK

[Rubik]

I'd recommend archery feats, and just buying them bows. Considering the level gap, keeping them back from the fights is the best possible option.

So, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, etc.

JaronK
Works best with a party bard, especially with Dragonfire Inspiration.

[hex0]

Toughness (strangely) isn't a Fighter bonus feat, so that's not an option anyway.

Although, Psionic Body is a Psychic Warrior bonus feat... :smallbiggrin:

Here is my reworked build if you can change still them a bit:

Ranger 2/Fighter 2

Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved shield bash, Toughness, Run, Improved Initiative, Toughness

All core! Super shield brothers! 17 AC all the time with a heavy shield, light shield, and chain shirt! They don't hit often but they react quickly and can run away when times get tough! :smallamused:

[Draz74]

I'd recommend archery feats, and just buying them bows. Considering the level gap, keeping them back from the fights is the best possible option.

So, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, etc.

JaronK

Most archery feats require DEX > 11. :smallannoyed: