Epic armor price makes sense?

[Kornilios]

Why a +10 armor costs 100.000 gp and a +11 armor costs 1.210.000(as i red in epic level handbook)?Is tha logical?It does not make any sense 12 times the price for +1 bonus to ac.Can someone explain me?

[tyckspoon]

It's completely arbitrary, really. +10 worth of bonuses was decided as the cutoff point between Epic and non-Epic things. The Epic stuff has a 10x price multiplier in order to ensure that you can't get ahold of it unless you also have Epic money to play with.

[hamishspence]

It's something everything gets.

Like swords with a +6 bonus costing vastly more than swords with a +5 bonus.

In-universe, it might be that "normal" magic holding substances can only hold so much- to go beyond that requires a different, vastly more expensive substance to hold the magic in magic weapons/armour/items.

[sonofzeal]

It's something everything gets.

Like swords with a +6 bonus costing vastly more than swords with a +5 bonus.

In-universe, it might be that "normal" magic holding substances can only hold so much- to go beyond that requires a different, vastly more expensive substance to hold the magic in magic weapons/armour/items.
Or just availability. There are a few people out there capable of making +10 items, but virtually none who can (or do) make higher.

[Rubik]

There ARE ways to get around this.

For instance, casting Greater Magic Weapon on a +1 weapon with +9 in abilities will give you a +14 weapon. Using +1 arrows on a +1 bow, each of which has +9 abilities, along with GMW on the bow, will grant you the equivalent of +23 arrows.

Similar things can be done with Magic Vestment and armor, a shield, and a dastana bracer (all of which stack).

[Emperor Tippy]

Let's see.
Bracers of armor +1 with 12 points of enhancements (+13 total).
Bracer/Shield +1 with 9 points of enhancements (+10)
Armor +1 with 9 points of enhancements (+10)
Dastana bracer +1 with 9 points of enhancements (+10)
Magic Vestments +5 on all of the above plus your clothes.

Total enhancement bonus of your armor: 62

[Rubik]

Let's see.
Bracers of armor +1 with 12 points of enhancements (+13 total).
Bracer/Shield +1 with 9 points of enhancements (+10)
Armor +1 with 9 points of enhancements (+10)
Dastana bracer +1 with 9 points of enhancements (+10)
Magic Vestments +5 on all of the above plus your clothes.

Total enhancement bonus of your armor: 62And it still costs less than that epic +1.

[Elric VIII]

Let's see.
Bracers of armor +1 with 12 points of enhancements (+13 total).
Bracer/Shield +1 with 9 points of enhancements (+10)
Armor +1 with 9 points of enhancements (+10)
Dastana bracer +1 with 9 points of enhancements (+10)
Magic Vestments +5 on all of the above plus your clothes.

Total enhancement bonus of your armor: 62

Don't forget Chahar-Aina armor. It's unupdated 3.0 from OA. It functions like the Dastana (can be worn with/stacks with other armor). There's another +9.

Also, a liberal reading of Dastana and Chahar-Aina suggests that you can cast MV on them and that will stack with base armor MV, for an additional +8. Nevermind this, I see what you were saying (by actually adding things up); you can add a MV to each of those. But I don't think the one on Bracers of Armor, clothes, and normal armor stack with each other

[Rubik]

A monk/kensai with a necklace of natural attacks and some fist-wraps can have some amazing unarmed strikes.

[Emperor Tippy]

Don't forget Chahar-Aina armor. It's unupdated 3.0 from OA. It functions like the Dastana (can be worn with/stacks with other armor). There's another +9.

Also, a liberal reading of Dastana and Chahar-Aina suggests that you can cast MV on them and that will stack with base armor MV, for an additional +8. Nevermind this, I see what you were saying (by actually adding things up); you can add a MV to each of those. But I don't think the one on Bracers of Armor, clothes, and normal armor stack with each other

There armor bonus doesn't stack, they still gain all the benefits of all the enhancements though.

It's why one of my favorite tricks is to get +1 Armor with whatever enhancements I want and then just use a Greater Mage Armor to actually cover AC.

[Elric VIII]

There armor bonus doesn't stack, they still gain all the benefits of all the enhancements though.

It's why one of my favorite tricks is to get +1 Armor with whatever enhancements I want and then just use a Greater Mage Armor to actually cover AC.

Agreed, I'm actually doing that now with armor, weapon, shield, and a whole bunch of spikes on everything. I just figure that the bonuses that don't stack don't really count for the total.

[Big Fau]

There armor bonus doesn't stack, they still gain all the benefits of all the enhancements though.

It's why one of my favorite tricks is to get +1 Armor with whatever enhancements I want and then just use a Greater Mage Armor to actually cover AC.

Correction: The armor bonus stacks, but the enhancement bonus provided by the enhancements on them do not.

[Rubik]

Correction: The armor bonus stacks, but the enhancement bonus provided by the enhancements on them do not.Well, it depends. The enhancement bonus to the shield stacks with the enhancement bonus to the dastanas stacks with the enhancement bonus to the armor.

Though they don't stack with other things that grant shield/armor/dastana bonuses to AC, granted.

[Duskranger]

According to me everything pre-epic is sadly only makable with +5 worth of special enhancements. As soon as you put in +6 special enhancements you need allready a +5 armor with +5 worth of enhancements and therefore an epic one.


Could be that I am wrong offcourse.

[Jack of Trades]

The use of X10 multiplier was an attempt to reset the epic players back to the equivalent of level 1 pre-epic players. Same with the epic item creation feats.

Basically a beginning epic team could not afford any epic weapons, armor, and magic items the same as a level 1 team could not afford any magic weapons, armor or items (excluding very minor mostly non-combat stuff).

WotC wanted the beginning epic players to have the same feelings they had when starting out at Level 1.

Unfortunately, the players typically max out on pre-epic items and do other work arounds.

[Steward]

Is there anything in the Epic Level Handbook that is really playable and useful without tweaking or reinterpretation?

[Rubik]

Unfortunately, the players typically max out on pre-epic items and do other work arounds.Yeah. For the price of a single piece of +11 armor, I could buy 5 or 6 stacking miss chances, or 10 ways to stack +10 to AC.

[sonofzeal]

Is there anything in the Epic Level Handbook that is really playable and useful without tweaking or reinterpretation?
Well, the idea to abandon differentiated BAB/saves, while disappointing for players, was almost certainly a necessary move. Given the size of a d20, continuing to split Saves further and further would lead to situations where everyone auto-succeeded on their good saves and auto-failed on their bad saves, which can be a little awkward from a gaming standpoint. Epic BAB/saves allow characters to continue progressing, without widening gulfs unmanageaby.

[DoctorGlock]

Well, the idea to abandon differentiated BAB/saves, while disappointing for players, was almost certainly a necessary move. Given the size of a d20, continuing to split Saves further and further would lead to situations where everyone auto-succeeded on their good saves and auto-failed on their bad saves, which can be a little awkward from a gaming standpoint. Epic BAB/saves allow characters to continue progressing, without widening gulfs unmanageaby.

Saves yes, BAB no. Monster AC grows even faster than sub epic making it even more utterly pointless to play any kind of melee char in epic because you just lost your only gimmick and have the insult of gaining a wizard BAB without even being good at anything. Creatures in the CR 26 range have about 50 AC, whereas creatures at CR 20 have about 35. You gained 3 BAB vs 15 AC in that time and something about that seems a bit unfair. Meaning you have to rely on loot you cannot afford to even show up to the session.

[candycorn]

According to me everything pre-epic is sadly only makable with +5 worth of special enhancements. As soon as you put in +6 special enhancements you need allready a +5 armor with +5 worth of enhancements and therefore an epic one.


Could be that I am wrong offcourse.

You are. You can make an item with +9 in special enhancements. While a +5 sword may only have +5 in special enhancement abilities...

A +1 Sword may have +9 worth, and will still be a +10 total. From there, you cast Greater Magic Weapon, and it's a +5 sword with +9 in enhancement abilities.

[sonofzeal]

Saves yes, BAB no. Monster AC grows even faster than sub epic making it even more utterly pointless to play any kind of melee char in epic because you just lost your only gimmick and have the insult of gaining a wizard BAB without even being good at anything. Creatures in the CR 26 range have about 50 AC, whereas creatures at CR 20 have about 35. You gained 3 BAB vs 15 AC in that time and something about that seems a bit unfair. Meaning you have to rely on loot you cannot afford to even show up to the session.
....I had a whole long response to this, but the board ate it. Suffice it to say that I firmly believe the flaw you point out is in the CR system, and the epic scaling thereof in particular.

The reason I think Epic BAB of some form is necessary is because of Rogues and other 3/4 BAB classes that use attack rolls (Spellthief, Factotum, Swordsage, etc). If the gulf between them and full-BAB classes continued to widen through epic, these guys would suffer horribly. As it stands, the gulf reaches a -25% penalty... and stops. I think that's reasonable, and almost necessary. Ideally everyone should be within a d20 roll of each other. I know that's often not the case, but Epic BAB at very least is not a part of that problem. And anything that helps alleviate that is good, imo.

[DoctorGlock]

....I had a whole long response to this, but the board ate it. Suffice it to say that I firmly believe the flaw you point out is in the CR system, and the epic scaling thereof in particular.

The reason I think Epic BAB of some form is necessary is because of Rogues and other 3/4 BAB classes that use attack rolls (Spellthief, Factotum, Swordsage, etc). If the gulf between them and full-BAB classes continued to widen through epic, these guys would suffer horribly. As it stands, the gulf reaches a -25% penalty... and stops. I think that's reasonable, and almost necessary. Ideally everyone should be within a d20 roll of each other. I know that's often not the case, but Epic BAB at very least is not a part of that problem. And anything that helps alleviate that is good, imo.

Huh, hadn't ever thought of it that way. If you use the current system, melee suffers. If you use my system, non primary melee suffers. If you make threats scale to match the current system, everyone suffers the feeling that the game is lame. Yeah, I guess we can conclude that the system does not in fact work.

Is the forum eating responses common to everyone? I assumed it was a result of my rather poor connection and just copy everything so I can paste it when it inevitably gets eaten.

[sonofzeal]

Huh, hadn't ever thought of it that way. If you use the current system, melee suffers. If you use my system, non primary melee suffers. If you make threats scale to match the current system, everyone suffers the feeling that the game is lame. Yeah, I guess we can conclude that the system does not in fact work.

Is the forum eating responses common to everyone? I assumed it was a result of my rather poor connection and just copy everything so I can paste it when it inevitably gets eaten.
By "ate it" I mean that I typed it all out on my work machine, and by the time I went to post it was database downtime and then I had to leave for home. That sounds a bit different than your issue, but still kind of frustrating since it happens to me regularly (I'm in Korea, and my 6pm is EST's 4am).

And honestly, I'd be just as happy if Epic BAB gave everyone a +1 every level. That'd still solve my issue, and help with yours. I'd consider it as a houserule, were I ever to run an Epic game.

[Taelas]

Let's see.
Bracers of armor +1 with 12 points of enhancements (+13 total).
Bracer/Shield +1 with 9 points of enhancements (+10)
Armor +1 with 9 points of enhancements (+10)
Dastana bracer +1 with 9 points of enhancements (+10)
Magic Vestments +5 on all of the above plus your clothes.

Total enhancement bonus of your armor: 62

This is a complete mess, terminology-wise. There is a difference between an enhancement bonus and a special ability. For example, a +5 vorpal long sword has a total effective bonus of +10, but only has a +5 enhancement bonus.

What you're saying is that you would pile on different items with loads of special abilities, and use magic vestments to cover the actual enhancement bonuses. That's a total of +10 enhancement bonus to AC, as it can only affect armor and shield bonuses, and it doesn't stack with itself.

There is also a difference between clothing and armor (see the Magic Item Compendium); there are no rules for giving armor special abilities to items classified as clothing. Doing so is a house rule.

[Wings of Peace]

I never have problems with ab in epic. Then again, this is probably because if I'm actually playing a melee char (that isn't just a bored wizard) I'm a Soulbound Weapon Psy-War with 3 levels of Arcane Duelist.