Help with a character concept, making a fighting rogue!

[BoutsofInsanity]

I had an amazing character in a 4th edition game and would like to translate him to the 3.5 system. Seeing as how all of you guys have better knowledge of this system then me, I would love to have your input.

I would like to see this...

Thane the half-orc assassin is very good at stealth, free running, and engaging single foes. He can

Out duel most light armored opponents (non tanks) in single combat
Use stealth to approach the battlefield and hit someone very hard at the start
can off tank for a round or two while the main tank heals up
can keep watch on the party and spot and eliminate danger before it becomes a threat from the shadows protecting the party
can intimidate, but not really much else


That is mainly what I would like you guys to help me create, for those who would like a more accurate portrayal and know 4th edition at all, Thane is a half-orc brutal scoundral rogue path, and I would like to see him in 3.5.

I would love to see Thane without Tome of Battle, so thats the first challenge, if you guys get stumped, then submit a Tome of Battle Thane as well if you cant do it without. GOOD LUCK!

[gbprime]

Have you considered using both the simple and thug variant of the fighter from Unearthed Arcana? You lose your bonus feats, but get extra class skills, extra skill points, and sneak attack as a rogue.

More complicated is a Swashbuckler/Rogue multiclass with the Daring Outlaw feat (complete scoundrel) that allows both classes to stack for determining sneak attack dice.

[Emperor Tippy]

Factotum from Dungeonscape or Swordsage are probably your best bets.

I would probably go Factotum.

What level do you want, what sources are allowed, how cheesy do you want it, how powerful do you want it, are there any other restrictions?

[gorfnab]

You may want to read through The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156350)

[Treblain]

I would suggest Daring Outlaw (Rogue/Swashbuckler) for what you're looking for. It can do everything you want. For intimidation there's a feat called Imperious Command, which is incredibly good. Stealth and keeping watch are fairly straightforward; just invest in the appropriate skills. I'd put emphasis on the Swashbuckler side to keep your attack bonus and HP higher.

[hex0]

I'd suggest Factotum as you can do pretty much anything. d8 hit die helps a bit as well compared to the d6 rogue die.

If allowed, Rokugan Ninja (it is OGL (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=rokugan%20ninja&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fl5r.alderac.com%2Farchive%2Frpg%2 Frokugan_ninja.pdf&ei=RUXFTrmdMInr0gHs79yYBw&usg=AFQjCNE_t-Z3YVvXzP3dXPlM93yiBHWpvw&cad=rja)): gets the same Sneak Attack progression as the Rogue, but is full BAB. I'm not familiar with 4e but that seems like a close match.

You may want to check out the Invisible Blade from Complete Warrior. (The requirements are messed up) You focus on fighting one opponent. Rogue 2/Swashbuckler 3 makes a decent entry.

[BoutsofInsanity]

Ill be checking out the feat from daring outlaw, this is very helpful, keep up the good work.

As for power level assume these stats after the half orc bonuses

str-19
dex-18
con-14
wis-12
int-13
cha-10

Umm, Im not so concerned with levels, but assume a standard 10 level build in terms of classes, and items, Im not looking for an entire item list or anything, but if by that point you guys can think of items a guy just cant do without go for it. Preferably not cheesy, but more stabby and slashy! Ty ty for what you guys have posted!

[Doc Roc]

If you can hunt down rust wands, they're in either Comp Adv or Comp Scoundrel, can never remember which. They're cute, useful, and elegant.

I also recommend factotum very strongly, though I am less sure it'll be a good fit.

For items, you need a belt of battle and a source of flight.

[big teej]

since I'm the most likely going to be DMing this monstrosity. I've a suggestion and a question.

so....

given the concept being aimed for. and given the power level of my games

would it be too far out of bounds to have a standard ranger swap out animal companion and his magic in exchange for sneak attack and call it a day?

[Icestorm245]

since I'm the most likely going to be DMing this monstrosity. I've a suggestion and a question.

so....

given the concept being aimed for. and given the power level of my games

would it be too far out of bounds to have a standard ranger swap out animal companion and his magic in exchange for sneak attack and call it a day?

Whoa whoa, lose two moderately useful class abilities for a single below average one? Remember that sneak attack is rather hard to use while all he has to do for either spellcasting or his animal companion is be the appropriate level for it. If you're going to do anything, take away one or the other... since he appears to be a non spellcasting type, take away spellcasting and give him sneak attack as per rogue. That way, at least he can use his animal companion to flank his opponents.

[Doc Roc]

I still say factotum or monk+tash+psywarrior with feats for assassin's stance.

[Lateral]

since I'm the most likely going to be DMing this monstrosity. I've a suggestion and a question.

so....

given the concept being aimed for. and given the power level of my games

would it be too far out of bounds to have a standard ranger swap out animal companion and his magic in exchange for sneak attack and call it a day?
Oh, you're DMing? That would be kind of a bad trade, but given the power level you usually play at, you could just let him play a Thug Sneak Attack fighter and swap Bluff, Gather Information, and Knowledge (Local) for Hide, Move Silently, and Spot. Boom, full BAB class with Sneak Attack that can intimidate, sneak, keep watch, off-tank, and not much else.

I still say factotum or monk+tash+psywarrior with feats for assassin's stance.
That's a little above Teej's usual optimization standard. Just a little.

[Eldest]

Another possibility (albeit homebrewed) would be Jiriku's Daring Outlaw (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188150), which is basically a hybrid of the Swashbuckler and the Rogue.

[big teej]

Oh, you're DMing? That would be kind of a bad trade, but given the power level you usually play at, you could just let him play a Thug Sneak Attack fighter and swap Bluff, Gather Information, and Knowledge (Local) for Hide, Move Silently, and Spot. Boom, full BAB class with Sneak Attack that can intimidate, sneak, keep watch, off-tank, and not much else.

That's a little above Teej's usual optimization standard. Just a little.

for what it's worth, the thug thing is what I suggested first (and second, and third, and 5th, and I believe 7th)

but he feels the aforementioned ranger fits the idea better, so I'm willing to run with it on the caveat of "if this does prove to weak, the animal companion will be returned"

if only because he and I are the only ones at the table that really know what we're doing.



That's a little above Teej's usual optimization standard. Just a little.

yea, just a weee bit. :smallwink:

[Hiro Protagonest]

This is Teej's group?

Yeah, just go straight rogue or use that ranger thing he suggested. Anything else is too powerful.

[Lateral]

for what it's worth, the thug thing is what I suggested first (and second, and third, and 5th, and I believe 7th)

but he feels the aforementioned ranger fits the idea better, so I'm willing to run with it on the caveat of "if this does prove to weak, the animal companion will be returned"

if only because he and I are the only ones at the table that really know what we're doing.

Eh, just let him keep the companion- it's not a Druid's companion, it really isn't that powerful.

[Essence_of_War]

I've thoroughly enjoyed a rogue-ish character using:
Swash 3/Rogue 4/Invisible Blade 5
take Daring Outlaw at 6, and glaze the last 8 levels with a heaping helping of swordsage.

That being said, my rogue had a much higher int and wis than you do, and a much lower strength. You get almost no benefit from any of the class features that those classes give. Thug, mixed with maybe a little bit of Warblade, seems like a much better fit.

Do you have any flexibility with your stats, or are you/the DM locked in with the array you gave us?

[BoutsofInsanity]

We are locked in the stats, I am loving all the responses. The ninja guy was the closest Ive seen to what I want to do. What book is that in? Not too worried about the animal companion, and the ranger with outdoors does fit the character a little. Keep them coming, At this point, feats and item choices for the above mentioned ranger build that two weapon fights would be awesome now.

[Essence_of_War]

The Rokugani Ninja is the Rokugan Campaign Setting, but the hex0 gave you a link to download it since apparently it's OGL.

I'm not at my books right now, but I think there is something very similar in the Oriental Adventures book (if for whatever reason you need a physical copy, and a pdf won't do?) called the Ninja Spy or something like that. I think it might be a prestige class rather than base class in OA, but it should be easy enough to get into.

I think you could probably get away with straight swordsage also. Maybe two levels in fighter or thug variant to get some proficiencies and sneak attack. Swordsages are really fun.:smallbiggrin:

[Hiro Protagonest]

You could switch to Urban Ranger variant. You can still take Track if you want to track in the wild, but you get Urban Tracking, which allows you to hunt down people in urban areas.

[Snowbluff]

Have you considered using both the simple and thug variant of the fighter from Unearthed Arcana? You lose your bonus feats, but get extra class skills, extra skill points, and sneak attack as a rogue.

More complicated is a Swashbuckler/Rogue multiclass with the Daring Outlaw feat (complete scoundrel) that allows both classes to stack for determining sneak attack dice.

I'd suggest this with a splash of Sword Sage when you are able to get Assassin's Stance for 2d6 more sneak attack, as well as a being able to qualify for Shadow Blade (Dex to weapon damage), and some nifty tricks to get more Sneak Attacks out.

A second level in SS will also give a Wis bonus to AC, which will be handy if you have a halfway decent Wis score.

[Essence_of_War]

Another idea just popped up.

You could also consider the Pathfinder Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife), if it's allowed in your game. It is totally OGL content, is just basically everything the 3.5 soulknife should have been + better.

Psyren wrote a handbook on it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203014), and it looks like it can do everything you want it to do.

(humorously enough, his avatar is actually Thane right now :smallbiggrin:)