(PF Pure) Archery Gish

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

So I was thinking of a build that might interest me for awhile now. I usually play skill monkeys or support combatants, like rogues and rangers. However, no matter how i cut it, spells do a better job of fulfilling either role.

So i was pondering the idea of a Fighter 1/Wizard 5, Eldritch Knight X that fulfills that versatile role of skill monkey and secondary combatant, but fulfills those requirements via spells.

Here was my build so far:
(20 point buy)
STR 10
DEX 14 (16)
CON 14
INT 16
WIS 10
CHA 10

Feats:
1 Point Blank Shot
1 Precise Shot
3 Rapid Shot
5 Deadly Aim
7 Combat Reflexes
9 Manyshot
11 Snap Shot
13 Point Blank Mastery
15 Improved Snap Shot
17 Clustered Shots
19 ???

Fighter feat:
1 I might swap this out for 4 skill points/level, so I have some skills?

Wizard Feats:
1 (2) Scribe Scroll
5 (6) Quicken Spell???

Eldritch Knight Feats:
1 (7) Weapon Focus: Longbow
5 (11) Specialization: Longbow
9 (15) Improved Precise Shot

traits:
Magical Knack
???

My basic idea was to use utility spells such as invisibility, spider climb, knock, etc. to be a scout/skill monkey. I would use self buffing spells in the traditional "I am gish" way. I would take the transmutation arcane school (probably opposed to necromancy and... enchantment??) for the +1 physical stat (dex), and grab a Rod of Extend asap and have mage armor on 24/7. a pearl of power or two would help. I would use my longbow as my bonded item, and have a collection of wands and scrolls to supplement my spells per day. Probably have Darkvision, knock, Vanish, True Strike, etc. as wands. I would probably wear a buckler for a +1 AC for when I wasn't using my bow: say a full movement, or it gets sundered.

So how is this as far as builds go? I didn't go arcane archer due to the increased loss of caster levels. the Eldritch Knight also gives more feats.

[ericgrau]

I've done a lot of builds that carry around a bajillion utility scrolls. Spider climb could very well be my favorite. However I never ever prepare these spells. The reason is I only need each spell once every 5 sessions, and you can only prepare maybe 4-5 spells on each spell level. So instead you carry a bajillion different scrolls, maybe 2-4 of certain scrolls, and you have a bajillion more options instead of 5 options that might be useless, see?

Some spells like invisibility can be used almost every day, and are ok to prepare. But not as your highest level spell. Your highest level spells might go to things like haste and flame arrow; i.e. the power spells. Basically take those spells first and use your leftovers on invisibility, alarm and so on.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I've done a lot of builds that carry around a bajillion utility scrolls. Spider climb could very well be my favorite. However I never ever prepare these spells. The reason is I only need each spell once every 5 sessions, and you can only prepare maybe 4-5 spells on each spell level. So instead you carry a bajillion different scrolls, maybe 2-4 of certain scrolls, and you have a bajillion more options instead of 5 options that might be useless, see?

Some spells like invisibility can be used almost every day, and are ok to prepare. But not as your highest level spell. Your highest level spells might go to things like haste and flame arrow; i.e. the power spells. Basically take those spells first and use your leftovers on invisibility, alarm and so on.

Excellent, good advice. I wasn't gonna leave out haste, no worries. does everything else look good then, as far as build goes? Also, if you feel like, Id love a good breakdown of what you'd prepare spell wise by spell level.

[ericgrau]

I noticed combat reflexes. Do you have a way to make attacks of opportunity with a bow? Arcane strike is a pretty good feat for gishes, although it consumes your swift action in case you wanted it for something else.

You might consider arcane archer instead of eldritch knight. Casting does not advance as fast, but most of the spells you want are low level anyway. Plus more damage and skill points. Or eldritch knight until you have the BAB to qualify for arcane archer. EDIT: Oh weird Pathfinder still has a race requirement for arcane archer, but not stalwart defender.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I noticed combat reflexes. Do you have a way to make attacks of opportunity with a bow? Arcane strike is a pretty good feat for gishes, although it consumes your swift action in case you wanted it for something else.

You might consider arcane archer instead of eldritch knight. Casting does not advance as fast, but most of the spells you want are low level anyway. Or eldritch knight until you have the BAB to qualify for arcane archer.

yes, Snap Shot. it allows AoO's with with the ranged weapon you have weapon focus with, in this case Longbow. Improved Snap Shot allows AoO's out to 10 feet.

I just didn't see anything that Arcane Archer gave me that was really superior to Eldritch Knight, whereas EK gives me 3 or 4 more caster levels. with the right build, I could still attain 9th level spells if i so desired. Cannot be done with AA... *shrug*

[ericgrau]

Mostly the damage, and because you'll have 3rd level spells by then and most of your buffs and utility are 3rd level or lower. You get the damage boost at level 3 so you could stop there and maybe get the 2nd damage boost at level 7 much later after ek. Imbue arrow is kind of nifty too, there's always the classic anti-magic field arrow trick.

[Tvtyrant]

yes, Snap Shot. it allows AoO's with with the ranged weapon you have weapon focus with, in this case Longbow. Improved Snap Shot allows AoO's out to 10 feet.

I just didn't see anything that Arcane Archer gave me that was really superior to Eldritch Knight, whereas EK gives me 3 or 4 more caster levels. with the right build, I could still attain 9th level spells if i so desired. Cannot be done with AA... *shrug*

It is too bad you are pure pathfinder, as a dip in Crusader for Thicket of Blades would make this ability awesome.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

It is too bad you are pure pathfinder, as a dip in Crusader for Thicket of Blades would make this ability awesome.

eh, its on the pf srd if you want to take a look. It is quite nice though.

[Ravens_cry]

If you are allowed traits, take Magical Knack, it ups your caster level by two as long as that doesn't exceed your HD, perfect for a gish*.
*What is the plural of gish anyway? Gishs or gishes?

[Psyren]

*What is the plural of gish anyway? Gishs or gishes?

I usually say "gishes," similar to "wishes."

[Ravens_cry]

I usually say "gishes," similar to "wishes."
Yes, that's how I do it too.

[grarrrg]

eh, its on the pf srd if you want to take a look. It is quite nice though.

I do believe he meant the 3.5 class Crusader from "The Tome of Battle".
With the Maneuvers and the Stances and the FLAVEN!

[Ravens_cry]

Two levels of Arcane Archer can do wonders for an archery gish, even though you lose a caster level.

[Novawurmson]

Two levels of Arcane Archer can do wonders for an archery gish, even though you lose a caster level.

Agreed. The Pathfinder Arcane Archer isn't half bad.

Depending on your level of play, a Myrmidarch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/myrmidarch) Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) would come online faster, but be weaker in the long run. It's a terrible, terrible archetype, but you might be able to persuade your DM to just give you Ranged Spellstrike in exchange for, say, the regular spellstrike.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

If you are allowed traits, take Magical Knack, it ups your caster level by two as long as that doesn't exceed your HD, perfect for a gish*.
*What is the plural of gish anyway? Gishs or gishes?

Its already there, in my build at the bottom. :smallwink:

[Lord.Sorasen]

Agreed. The Pathfinder Arcane Archer isn't half bad.

Depending on your level of play, a Myrmidarch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/myrmidarch) Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) would come online faster, but be weaker in the long run. It's a terrible, terrible archetype, but you might be able to persuade your DM to just give you Ranged Spellstrike in exchange for, say, the regular spellstrike.

The magus archetypes confuse me so much. Somewhere along the line someone at Paizo must have decided that people would want to play Magus but fealt the class needed less spellcasting.

[Ravens_cry]

Its already there, in my build at the bottom. :smallwink:
Good! I see great minds think alike, if fools seldom differ.:smallamused:

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

a couple more questions:

1.) does the stat bonus from the transmuter wizard levels stack with items? I cant remember...

2.) Any suggestions for spells, or strategies for staying alive at early levels?

[Ravens_cry]

1. No, it's an enhancment bonus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/transmutation). And explicitly unless said otherwise, like dodge bonuses to armour, bonuses of the same type do not stack.
2. I found that sleep and colour spray can be very fun at low levels. We are up to level six, and my half orc sorcerer still loves to use the latter for making mooks cry in their sleep.

[ericgrau]

1). Nope, unless PF changed the stacking rules.

2) A good early spell is sleep. Otherwise stay in the back. As one attack can kill you, one attack of opportunity can often kill your foes. This also requires no slot or action investment which I prefer because if you're going to protect yourself the whole fight, why even show up to it at all? Web and flaming sphere are a couple more gems. And once you get to 3rd level spells there are tons of options I assume you already know about. 1st and 2nd level also have lots of popular utility and secondary spells, but I would not recommend these for use at low levels as your primary spell. i.e., spider climb does not win fights, but it is one of my favorite spells to have on a scroll as a minor utility thing at higher levels. A possible exception to the no high level utility spells at low level rule might be false life, as it's a TON of hp for a squishy low level wizard.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

well in that case... does anyone have an opinion on whether to be a transmuter or universalist wizard? if I do the transmuter thing for the stat bonuses, what would you take as your opposed schools?

[Psyren]

well in that case... does anyone have an opinion on whether to be a transmuter or universalist wizard? if I do the transmuter thing for the stat bonuses, what would you take as your opposed schools?

Folks around here typically toss Evocation and Enchantment, though you could also do without Necromancy or Abjuration depending on your party.

Never give up Conjuration or Illusion - too much utility and survivability in those two.

[ericgrau]

Spells such as wall of force for "no save, you just win" against most foes, and selective fireball are some of the best around, if not the very best spells there are. Especially in pathfinder where they added selective spell and the alternatives are limited. Enchantment is the easiest to ban because it's rather specialized. Likewise a player could go their whole careers without a single abjuration, necromancy or illusion, though each of those has its gems so it's not entirely without cost. Abjuration has some ok spells plus dispel magic. Plus clerics can usually do abjuration better. Probably another easy one to ban after enchantment. Necromancy has false life, as mentioned, and the very best no save debuffing rays like ray of enfeeblement or enervation. Illusion has the very nice invisibility line of spells and some ok defenses but the rest revolves around complex trickery that takes a lot of work to be good at.