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View Full Version : A modification to the toughness feat [3.5 PEACHy]



gooddragon1
2011-11-17, 12:00 AM
Toughness [General]

You can keep fighting where others cannot.

Benefit

You gain one effective HD at the highest dice of any class you have (if you have 1 level in fighter and 4 levels in wizard you gain a d10 HD). This HD has no features other than granting HP and does not count for the purpose of determining the amount of XP required to level up. You cannot lose this HD through processes which would normally cause you to lose a HD but it is also not counted towards your overall HD in cases such as being raised from the dead or having more than 0 HD from level drain.

Special

A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.

This does 2 things:
-you gain HP that is influenced by your class and con and maybe other stuff?
-you have 1 more effective HD than normal which can help when determining whether or not you can be affected by some things like a sleep spell or (if you are undead) turning.

There may be other benefits but I doubt it.

Gaiyamato
2011-11-17, 12:02 AM
It will have a secondary benefit to class/racial special powers/qualities that are HD based. I thought of several off the top of my head.
It really should be kept as some sort of hp bonus.
+1 HP per HD would still allow it to scale though and it would not overshadow improved toughness then. :smallsmile:

Tanuki Tales
2011-11-17, 12:17 AM
and it would not overshadow improved toughness then. :smallsmile:

Is that a problem though?

I was always under the impression Improved Toughness was "so good" because regular Toughness was absolutely terrible.

bobthe6th
2011-11-17, 12:55 AM
might fix both of them by leting them add a stackable +1 to fort saves...

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-11-17, 02:06 AM
This is a problem, as max skill ranks are based solely on HD. As you can nab the feat multiple times, you could use it to sneak yourself into PrCs incredibly fast.

Gaiyamato
2011-11-17, 02:18 AM
This is a problem, as max skill ranks are based solely on HD. As you can nab the feat multiple times, you could use it to sneak yourself into PrCs incredibly fast.

Pretty much what I was saying.

I have found that Toughness does have one use and that is when making homebrew classes. It can be useful as an easy way to give incremental hp bonuses.

Watch out for that Lolth-touched Spellwarped Mineral Warrior Half-Ogre War Hulk who has bought nothing other than power attack, cleave, Great cleave Steadfast Determination and multiple toughness/improved toughness/epic toughness.

Even worse when playing Gestalt where you are allowed the LA up one "side". lol.

DeAnno
2011-11-17, 02:58 AM
Would it actually be that bad to have a feat that out-and-out granted an empty Hit Die? It would be much better than a lot of crummy feats (Iron Will Skill Focus etc) are now, but nobody takes those feats anyways! And paying a whole feat for one level earlier entry into some PRC isn't really that bad. You probably would want it to not be a fighter bonus feat anymore though.

Toughness
You gain one racial HD of your appropriate type which doesn't count against your ECL, doesn't count towards your normal progression of feats, and doesn't count towards your total HD for the purposes of being Epic, but acts like a normal HD in all other respects. If you didn't have any racial HD before, this one provides the extra +2 bonus to good base saves as normal. If your type is Humanoid and this is your first racial HD, you can choose your good save.

Gaiyamato
2011-11-17, 07:34 AM
Human 1 level of any base class, 2 flaws, 4 starting feats total. Can enter any prestige class it likes by level 3 at worst.

Toughnessx4 + Practiced Spellcaster = +4CL to spells and extra hp.

Imagine what you could do if you really put your mind to it.
I am having some horrid thoughts with Druid.

Zeta Kai
2011-11-17, 08:00 AM
This is a problem, as max skill ranks are based solely on HD. As you can nab the feat multiple times, you could use it to sneak yourself into PrCs incredibly fast.

Therein lies the rub. Feats are still precious jewels, finite resources that come & go like a comet, & about as often. I can think of many, many things that are a better bang for one's buck than this. If a person wants to spend 2 or 3 of their 7 or 8 total career feats on something like this, why not let them?

Yitzi
2011-11-17, 09:54 AM
Other than exploits like using it to get high skill ranks, this still suffers from the same flaw that plagues toughness, namely that as you grow in levels it actually decreases in power.

Unless there's a scaling feature, toughness will remain something for monsters to waste their feats on.

Lert, A.
2011-11-17, 10:50 AM
Yeah, a +1 per HD is just fine for Toughness. Adding crazy HD mechanics is just a pain plus an invite to all sorts of rules abuse.

NeoSeraphi
2011-11-17, 12:29 PM
Let me try my hand at this.

Toughness
Prerequisites: Must have a Constitution score
Benefit: You treat your effective Constitution score as if it was increased by 2 for the purpose of determining your hit points only. This feat retroactively grants you increased hit points, as all increases to your Constitution score do. At 6 HD or 6th character level, your effective Constitution score increases by another +2. This continues at 11th HD/level and every 5 levels after that.

Lert, A.
2011-11-17, 07:06 PM
Let me try my hand at this.

Toughness
Prerequisites: Must have a Constitution score
Benefit: You treat your effective Constitution score as if it was increased by 2 for the purpose of determining your hit points only. This feat retroactively grants you increased hit points, as all increases to your Constitution score do. At 6 HD or 6th character level, your effective Constitution score increases by another +2. This continues at 11th HD/level and every 5 levels after that.

It certainly is nice and works well for every class.

Almost too good though since I could see all but the most hardcore players taking this feat, and then only because those players have had to fill every feat slot for their crazy CharOp.

I would think that it could work by just having it available for every 5 levels and stacking. Probably would be nice in that case to allow the effective Con boost to add to your Fortitude save as well. +1hp/level and +1 Fort adds some nice flavor.

Siosilvar
2011-11-17, 07:30 PM
Almost too good though since I could see all but the most hardcore players taking this feat, and then only because those players have had to fill every feat slot for their crazy CharOp.

I would think that it could work by just having it available for every 5 levels and stacking. Probably would be nice in that case to allow the effective Con boost to add to your Fortitude save as well. +1hp/level and +1 Fort adds some nice flavor.

I don't think finding 7 feats that provide useful options (outside of Core) is exactly a difficult challenge. It certainly isn't deserving of the title "crazy CharOp".

Lert, A.
2011-11-17, 08:00 PM
I don't think finding 7 feats that provide useful options (outside of Core) is exactly a difficult challenge. It certainly isn't deserving of the title "crazy CharOp".

Have you looked at the CharOp section of this forum? Every feat slot will be fit with something to fill a specific need for damage, PrC entry, casting, etc.

You really don't see anywhere the option of "and take a feat that you kind of like here because there aren't any more choices that would further enhance your build".

But that is for a specific set of players who will likely not use this feat because it will not slot into their build criteria unless it is a prerequisite since a few extra hp are of overall less concern than dealing the massive damage/caster effects, etc.

For less obsessed players Toughness can become nice option with some tweaking but for even moderate optimizers it will likely not reach the Top 7 ranking. There are just too many other good options out there, mostly in the way of damage dealing which will keep you alive far better than some hp because the enemy won't be able to hit you any more.

Yitzi
2011-11-17, 08:42 PM
Let me try my hand at this.

Toughness
Prerequisites: Must have a Constitution score
Benefit: You treat your effective Constitution score as if it was increased by 2 for the purpose of determining your hit points only. This feat retroactively grants you increased hit points, as all increases to your Constitution score do. At 6 HD or 6th character level, your effective Constitution score increases by another +2. This continues at 11th HD/level and every 5 levels after that.

This is too much in the other direction, unless you're playing with feat scaling (beyond stuff like "the bonus and penalty can be up to your BAB) in general.

Also, if you are playing with feat scaling, making it dependent on BAB rather than character level (for fighter bonus feats) could be a good way to make BAB more relevant.

Coidzor
2011-11-17, 09:27 PM
Imagine what you could do if you really put your mind to it.
I am having some horrid thoughts with Druid.

You mean you're imagining a Druid? :smalltongue: Other than grabbing Legendary Ape at 7th level (because this is not worth giving up the Druid's 6th level class feature, Natural Spell) rather than 12th, where it's still not as powerful as fleshraker, I'm not really seeing anything that's not bog standard druid fare.


Have you looked at the CharOp section of this forum? Every feat slot will be fit with something to fill a specific need for damage, PrC entry, casting, etc.

You really don't see anywhere the option of "and take a feat that you kind of like here because there aren't any more choices that would further enhance your build".

That would mostly be because there's generally not enough room for that sort of thing if you're actually building towards a purpose. More flexible class choices will, however, have more flexibility in their feat selection. However, given the finite and limited nature of feats, grabbing a feat you "kind of like" is generally a bad idea as it denies you a feat you need or a feat that lets you do your job correctly.

Gaiyamato
2011-11-17, 09:40 PM
What about?

Toughness
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: You gain +2 Hit Points per feat that directly improves your Fortitude save or gives you Hit Points including this feat.
This feat may be taken multiple times.

NeoSeraphi
2011-11-17, 11:57 PM
This is too much in the other direction, unless you're playing with feat scaling (beyond stuff like "the bonus and penalty can be up to your BAB) in general.

Scaling feats are much better than the crappy Core feats, so I don't mind that much. I haven't ever played with homebrew feats before, but I certainly wouldn't mind it.


Also, if you are playing with feat scaling, making it dependent on BAB rather than character level (for fighter bonus feats) could be a good way to make BAB more relevant.

Eh. Every character can benefit from the HP increasing feat equally, for all I care. (Except undead and constructs, but that's okay because they have enough hit points already)

I think that giving it a strong, scaling bonus is nice, and removing the ability to be able to take it multiple times makes up for that

Lert, A.
2011-11-18, 12:38 AM
That would mostly be because there's generally not enough room for that sort of thing if you're actually building towards a purpose. More flexible class choices will, however, have more flexibility in their feat selection. However, given the finite and limited nature of feats, grabbing a feat you "kind of like" is generally a bad idea as it denies you a feat you need or a feat that lets you do your job correctly.

I know. I have been doing this a loooooong time. :smalltongue:

It still comes down to the fact that a tank is usually not a tank because of hp but because of abilities to avoid or resist damage. Even with my example based a bit off of NeoSeraphi's (I would just avoid the virtual Con and go with just +1 hp/ level +1 Fort) it is a bit of a tossup as to how strong it could be. The +1 to Fort is arguably of more advantage than the hp are by themselves.

Of course for my version of Great Fortitude would scale as well with the usual +2 and +1 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter.

DeAnno
2011-11-18, 02:18 AM
Toughness
Prerequisites: Must have a Constitution score
Benefit: You treat your effective Constitution score as if it was increased by 2 for the purpose of determining your hit points only. This feat retroactively grants you increased hit points, as all increases to your Constitution score do. At 6 HD or 6th character level, your effective Constitution score increases by another +2. This continues at 11th HD/level and every 5 levels after that.

This, I like. The amount of hp scales roughly in value to the amount of hp which is likely to be important (5 at 5th level, 20 at 10th level, 45 at 15th level, 80 at 20th level). As you level it'll be more and more of you total hp, but as you level hp damage becomes more and more ridiculous so it has to keep up.

Yitzi
2011-11-18, 07:36 AM
Scaling feats are much better than the crappy Core feats, so I don't mind that much.

Even so, having some feats scale and some not is even worse than having no feats scale.

DeAnno
2011-11-19, 06:35 AM
Even so, having some feats scale and some not is even worse than having no feats scale.

This situation already exists. Plenty of feats already in the system, like Power Attack, Metamagic feats, and Craven, scale very strongly, making them much better options than weak nonscaling feats. Making more weak nonscaling feats isn't good design, since they're traps compared to better options.

Seerow
2011-11-19, 12:01 PM
What about?

Toughness
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: You gain +2 Hit Points per feat that directly improves your Fortitude save or gives you Hit Points including this feat.
This feat may be taken multiple times.

This feat is objectively terrible. It has potential to be worse than normal toughness, and is objectively worse in every way than Psionic Toughness (given it's the same bonus, but there are some Psionic feats out there that are actually good).




Anyway, I agree in general that the extra HD mechanic is clunky and can cause some minor troubles. What fix would be appropriate depends on your balancing point for a feat though. If you think feats should be somewhere close to core, then Improved Toughness is a fine replacement. Maybe throw a +1 to fort onto it and it's basically just like you got +2 to con, which is pretty decent for a feat.

If you want every feat to be like power attack, shock trooper, elusive target, the devotion feats, etc, you probably want something with some more flexibility and a flashy effect. Something like:


Toughness[Tactical]
Prerequisite: Constitution 13
Benefit: You are inhumanly tough, and survive attacks that would kill lesser individuals. You gain 1 hit point per level, and gain access to the following techniques:
Mountain Stance-If you move half your movement speed or less in a turn, you gain DR/- equal to half your character level until the end of your next turn.
Boundless Stamina-On a round where you take at least 1 point of damage, you can spend a swift action to gain temporary hit points equal to the damage you have taken this round.
Heedless Fortitude-After succeeding on at least one saving throw in a round, you may choose to spend an immediate action reroll a fortitude save, or replace a Will or Reflex save with your Fortitude Save.



Personally, I prefer weaker feats, with cool stuff being class features or powers, but the majority of the argument about this is going to come from people who feel feat balance should be in a different place, because feats are so all over the place.

Coidzor
2011-11-19, 02:51 PM
One possibility as well would be to address that whole 50 damage = insta-fort-save versus death thing, as well. Possibly up the damage required for the fort save for massive trauma/injury/damage to 75/100 or X per HD. Or possibly making it into some figure or fraction derived from the character's max HP.

Yitzi
2011-11-19, 08:06 PM
This situation already exists. Plenty of feats already in the system, like Power Attack, Metamagic feats, and Craven, scale very strongly, making them much better options than weak nonscaling feats. Making more weak nonscaling feats isn't good design, since they're traps compared to better options.

To take the ones you mentioned:
-Power Attack actually doesn't really scale very much, as you always get +2 damage (assuming a 2-handed weapon) for each point of attack you give up. The only thing that changes is your attack bonus minus the target's AC, and that can be used in other ways too (e.g. boost your defense with Combat Expertise, have more attacks hit, etc.) It might have a bit of scaling, but very little.
-Metamagic also doesn't really scale, as you're applying the same change for the same cost each time. As you progress in level, you get more stuff to spend on it, but again you could spend those spell levels on other things (such as higher-level spells) as well. The only reason it looks like it scales is that it stacks in a sense with "quadratic wizards".
-Craven also looks like it scales, but because it boosts damage, and the damage increase is proportional to the damage you'd get otherwise, it's not really scaling more than "even". It scales in the same way as a toughness that gives +1 hit point/level scales (which is balanced, at least as far as scaling is concerned, as compared to something like Weapon Focus), not in the same way as "+1 hit point/level, increases to +2/level and then to +3/level" does.

Basically, by "scaling feats" I meant those that increase the character's power by a higher percentage at high levels than at low levels. All the ones you mentioned increase the character's power by pretty much the same percentage at high levels as at low levels, even if they increase it by a greater amount (since it's the same percentage of a higher amount) at higher levels.

(On the flip side, you have feats that increase the character's power by a fixed amount and therefore increase it at a lower percentage at high levels; the two classic examples of this are Weapon Specialization and the normal-rules Toughness.)

NeoSeraphi
2011-11-20, 03:31 AM
A classic example of a feat that scales (In Core, because we all know how much Yitzi prefers Core) is Stunning Fist.

Scaling DC, scaling uses per day. The only thing that doesn't scale is the effect itself, which, since it is already a terribly useful effect and continues to be useful at higher levels, is just fine.

The feat itself isn't great, but it's certainly better than Toughness.

Cieyrin
2011-11-20, 11:24 AM
Toughness[Tactical]
Prerequisite: Constitution 13
Benefit: You are inhumanly tough, and survive attacks that would kill lesser individuals. You gain 1 hit point per level, and gain access to the following techniques:
Mountain Stance-If you move half your movement speed or less in a turn, you gain DR/- equal to half your character level until the end of your next turn.
Boundless Stamina-On a round where you take at least 1 point of damage, you can spend a swift action to gain temporary hit points equal to the damage you have taken this round.
Heedless Fortitude-After succeeding on at least one saving throw in a round, you may choose to spend an immediate action reroll a fortitude save, or replace a Will or Reflex save with your Fortitude Save.

Hmm, I'm kinda intrigued by this variant, it definitely needs polish, as at least Heedless Fortitude seems like it's a bit limited in that you need to make a save first, as there's no guarantee you'll get hit more than one. I'd just let you have that and call it good. Boundless Stamina needs a duration and a disclaimer that they don't stack, as I can see this getting silly with one getting Harmed, setting off Boundless Stamina, and then getting Healed and walk around with double hp. I don't mind nice things but they shouldn't be that easily exploitable.

Also, I'd change the feat name to Guts, cuz, well, he definitely has it :smallcool:: http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/321/35990-9_super.jpg

Yitzi
2011-11-20, 02:33 PM
A classic example of a feat that scales (In Core, because we all know how much Yitzi prefers Core

Mainly because that's all I own, and all that you should have to own in order to be competitive.


is Stunning Fist.

Scaling DC, scaling uses per day. The only thing that doesn't scale is the effect itself, which, since it is already a terribly useful effect and continues to be useful at higher levels, is just fine.

Yes, that is a case of a scaling feat, even though it's very weakly scaling (in that only the uses/day increase.)


The feat itself isn't great, but it's certainly better than Toughness.

When it comes to scaling, almost anything is better than Toughness. And I'm not sure about that "almost".

DiBastet
2011-11-20, 04:18 PM
Reminds me that I did one crazy thing, almost killed me. i added a line on every fighter bonus feat, including scaling benefits with fighter levels. Combat reflexes? Normal benefit +1 AoO / 4 fighter levels. Stunning fist More attempts if fighter. This kind of thing. With so many Combat feats as fighter bonus feats, it was a hell of a work...

Toughness [Combat]
Prerequisite: Constitution 13
Benefit: You gain 1 extra hit point per level.
Fighter: At each fighter level you gain 2 extra hit points instead of 1.

Cieyrin
2011-11-20, 04:39 PM
Reminds me that I did one crazy thing, almost killed me. i added a line on every fighter bonus feat, including scaling benefits with fighter levels. Combat reflexes? Normal benefit +1 AoO / 4 fighter levels. Stunning fist More attempts if fighter. This kind of thing. With so many Combat feats as fighter bonus feats, it was a hell of a work...

Toughness [Combat]
Prerequisite: Constitution 13
Benefit: You gain 1 extra hit point per level.
Fighter: At each fighter level you gain 2 extra hit points instead of 1.

Not sure that's really a fix, since it's essentially a rewrite of Improved. Also, normal Toughness isn't even a Fighter Bonus feat, because it is that bad. Whether that's an oversight or not, given the 3.0 'better' Toughnesses (Dwarf's, Giant's, Dragon's) all are, I have no clue.

DiBastet
2011-11-20, 05:00 PM
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, it's not a proposed fix, just example of what I did with all my feats. All the scaling talk reminded me of it.

Yitzi
2011-11-20, 06:21 PM
Not sure that's really a fix, since it's essentially a rewrite of Improved. Also, normal Toughness isn't even a Fighter Bonus feat, because it is that bad. Whether that's an oversight or not, given the 3.0 'better' Toughnesses (Dwarf's, Giant's, Dragon's) all are, I have no clue.

I think that settles it: The reason Toughness is so terrible is that it was never meant to be taken by PCs (except for prestige class entry), only by NPCs and monsters.

Jeriah
2011-11-20, 08:41 PM
If you want to screw around with the HD, why not just have Toughness increase the HD size used and have it apply to every level.

d4 -> d6 -> d8 -> d10 -> d12 -> d12*1.5

Yitzi
2011-11-20, 10:49 PM
Or if you want to make it really impressive, after 1d12 can come 2d6, with CON bonus being applied to each die. (Then 2d8, 2d10, 2d12, 4d6, etc.)

Seerow
2011-11-20, 10:50 PM
Or if you want to make it really impressive, after 1d12 can come 2d6, with CON bonus being applied to each die. (Then 2d8, 2d10, 2d12, 4d6, etc.)

Why not just cut out the middle man and say "Double your con mod for determining HP"?

Yitzi
2011-11-20, 11:14 PM
Why not just cut out the middle man and say "Double your con mod for determining HP"?

That works too...of course, then you need to either make it once-only or make that the result of taking it several times.

Veklim
2011-11-21, 09:41 AM
OK, I've had a little idea for ages, and this thread makes perfect sense to sound it out. This is not a fix, per se, not even much of any improvement, but it does cut down on crappy feats by merging them:

Hardy [General]
You are made of tougher stuff.
Requirements: Con 13+
Benefit: You gain +2 HP/HD and a +2 bonus to fortitude saves.
Special: This feat works retroactively on HP and counts as both the Toughness and Great Fortitude feats for the purpose of meeting feat/class requirements.

Quick [General]
You react to physical threats with uncanny speed.
Requirements: Dex 13+
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC against one specified opponent and a +2 to reflex saves.
Special: This feat counts as both the Dodge and Lightning Reflexes feats for the purpose of meeting feat/class requirements.

Intuitive [General]
Your mental awareness gives momentary insights to unseen threats.
Requirements: Wis 13+
Benefit: You gain +2 to will saves and the effects of the blind-fight feat.
Special: This feat counts as both the Blind-fight and Iron Will feats for the purpose of meeting feat/class requirements.

Cieyrin
2011-11-21, 10:23 AM
Quick is the worst of the lot, as it still has issues with Dodge being the weakest variant of the feat (Midnight, Expeditious, Desert). I'd just make it a flat Dodge bonus to AC unless you want to make it compatible with Melee Evasion, Elusive Target, etc.

I'd also improve on Intuitive to make it work with ranged a bit so you can be a bit like Daredevil.

Veklim
2011-11-21, 10:36 AM
OK, how about this then...

Quick [General]
You react to physical threats with uncanny speed.
Requirements: Dex 13+
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC with an additional +1 (dodge) against one specified opponent. You also gain a +2 to reflex saves.
Special: This feat counts as both the Dodge and Lightning Reflexes feats for the purpose of meeting feat/class requirements.

Best of both worlds, leaves you able to qualify for everything dodge normally gives and adds a +1 flat bonus to boot.

Hyudra
2011-11-21, 11:24 AM
I think that settles it: The reason Toughness is so terrible is that it was never meant to be taken by PCs (except for prestige class entry), only by NPCs and monsters.

I think, also, that WotC has a design methodology that promotes bad options.

Essentially, they feel you will grow faster as a player if you can recognize early on that some options are worse than others. They did this with magic cards (some cards are intentionally, distinctly inferior) and they do it with some of the feats (and spells, and equipment) in D&D.

Yitzi
2011-11-21, 11:51 AM
I think, also, that WotC has a design methodology that promotes bad options.

Essentially, they feel you will grow faster as a player if you can recognize early on that some options are worse than others. They did this with magic cards (some cards are intentionally, distinctly inferior) and they do it with some of the feats (and spells, and equipment) in D&D.

I don't really have a problem with the idea of having some clearly worse options; it's only when their inferiority is not clear or when the inferior ones are the majority that it's a real problem.

Deepbluediver
2011-11-21, 04:03 PM
Yeah, a +1 per HD is just fine for Toughness. Adding crazy HD mechanics is just a pain plus an invite to all sorts of rules abuse.

I've always wondered if that fix was really powerful enough. At 20th level, thats only another 20 HP, right?

Since this is a relatively boring feat, I always felt that a +2 HP per level would be a more appropriate boost to keep it attractive to players.


Edit: finished reading the rest of the thread. I always did like feats that add options for action instead of just flat bonuses; its the Active vs. Passive design that appealed to me.

I'd love if we could work out something that did both; maybe a weak passive bonus with a more interesting active or situational bonus. That way having the feat won't be a waste some of the time, but you'll also have opportunitied where it can really shine.

Yitzi
2011-11-21, 04:11 PM
I've always wondered if that fix was really powerful enough. At max level, thats only another 20 HP, right?

Yeah, once CON items become prevalent it still really isn't enough.