[Pathfinder] DM Help Requested, Seven PCs versus Two PCs

[Twibby]

Okay, first: Players in my campaign, please kindly leave.

Now, this is my second time DMing, and I've run into a bit of a rut.The finale of this arc is a fight between the party - a Rogue, a Fighter, a Fighter/Barbarian, Two Witches, a 3.5 Warlock, and an Oracle - and the BBEG, a Wizard, and her twin, a 3rd Party Artificer (info on class here: www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/artificer ) that used to be part of the adventuring party.

The Party is all level 5, as is the Artificer, and the group as a whole is on the low end of optimization - the first Fighter uses TWF, the Fighter/Barbarian has never actually Raged at all since he multiclassed, and the Oracle has a fascination with stabbing things with a spear instead of casting.

My problem is what to give the Wizard, and what to do in general, in order to make things a challenging fight. If she's not strong enough, the players can just mob the twins and beat them down, but if the Wizard is too strong, which might be easily done when I'm designing for a low level party, she and the Artificer can just spam Save or Get Kicked From The Rest Of The Fights and cause a TPK.

I won't be using anything to boost the Wizard/Artificer from 3.5, but all of the 3rd Party Pathfinder books are open game. Please help me, Playgrounders, and thanks a lot for any advice you can give me.

[Aegis013]

Give the wizard battlefield control spells. Look up Treantmonk's Guide to Playing "god" on google if you want some help making the Wizard into a battlefield controller.

Then give the Artificer some fairly decent early wand/s (like Scorching Ray) and have the Wizard stall the party while the Artificer blasts them, then you can give the Wizard an escape spell for the end (like Dimension Door or something) so they can make a get-away given the chance and be recurring villains.

[Twibby]

Give the wizard battlefield control spells. Look up Treantmonk's Guide to Playing "god" on google if you want some help making the Wizard into a battlefield controller.

That was my first thought, but I don't really see a way for the Wizard to be able to stall the majority of the PCs per round, as the battlefield's going to be relatively spread out. Naturally, this isn't normally a bad thing. but, since all of the PCs rolled for their stats, the Artificer's actually more fragile than the Wizard or the Witches (Artificer's got 20 HP at level 5), and I can't change any of his stats - I'm afraid even one or two hits would be able to drop him, and once he's down the Wizard's stuck dealing with everyone on her own. I know Battlefield Control has to play a part, but if I have both Artificer and Wizard play Battlefield Control to protect them both, no one's doing damage.

[BobVosh]

Try a pit trap or some other trap. Even a trip wire to drop tanglefoot bags can be enough battlefield control.

[Doc Roc]

A scroll of evard's black tentacles is monstrously effective at this level, even in pathfinder, since you simply aren't supposed to be throwing it around yet. God bless artificers!

[lord_khaine]

Tentacles would be kinda unsporting imo.

If the optimisation level is as low as you say, then you should be able to make the fight interesting for everyone, simply by letting the Wizard and Artificer summon a couple of monsters that the PC's will have to beat their way though first.

Actualy, the Artificer should be able to do this alone, just let his use a scroll of summon natures ally IX, going for the d4+1 option.
That should instantly even out the odds.

[Doc Roc]

Tentacles would be kinda unsporting imo.

If the optimisation level is as low as you say, then you should be able to make the fight interesting for everyone, simply by letting the Wizard and Artificer summon a couple of monsters that the PC's will have to beat their way though first.

Actualy, the Artificer should be able to do this alone, just let his use a scroll of summon natures ally IX, going for the d4+1 option.
That should instantly even out the odds.

Unsporting? This isn't boxing. 7 PCs are trying to murder 2 PCs.Honestly, he might be right, I'm having a hard time assessing how big the nerf to black tentacles actually is.

[lord_khaine]

Actualy, as i understood it, the Wizard and the Artificer were former members of the party, so they are npc's now?

Also, i only get it to 6 party members on the list?

[Twibby]

Ah - thanks for the catch, I forgot to mention the 3.5 Warlock. Edited now. Also, the Artificer used to be part of the adventuring party, the Wizard was not. I'm still calling them PCs, though, because calling them NPCs in the title might have made people think of Aristocrats, Adepts, and the like.

And thanks for the spell suggestions - Black Tentacles looks quite useful, if I weaken the damage, but the summoning spells look too overpowered, and might drag down the pacing of the fight - especially tossing the Artificer a scroll of Summon Nature's Ally IX and going for broke.

However, I'm still worried about how fragile the Artificer and the Wizard are. Any suggestions to keep them alive and ticking after a few attacks would be great - I don't want two random hits to drop either to dying status.

[Chambers]

Mirror Image, Displacement, Blink, False Life, Shield, Mage Armor, Protection from Evil. These are some good defensive spells for the Wizard & Artificer. To make the Artificer hardier, give him a scroll of Stoneskin. Both should have False Life cast, maybe Bear's Endurance as well.


Slow is a good level appropriate offensive spell for the enemies to cast. Web is also a good spell to hamper melee characters. Fog cloud reduces vision and Glitterdust blinds them. None of those four spells deal damage, so you don't have to worry about a lucky damage rolling one-shotting the weaker PC's, but they'll all be pretty effective in controlling/limiting the PC's actions

[lord_khaine]

And thanks for the spell suggestions - Black Tentacles looks quite useful, if I weaken the damage, but the summoning spells look too overpowered, and might drag down the pacing of the fight - especially tossing the Artificer a scroll of Summon Nature's Ally IX and going for broke.



I were mainly thinking about a scroll of summon natures ally IV that the artificers could have made himself, because as the odds are set up, then those 2 really need some minions to stand between themself and the PC's.

Alternatively they could allways animate a couple of Ogre Zombies, if they are high on black Onyx and low on morale.

[Malachei]

Your main problem, IMO, is the action economy. 7 PCs will just have so much more actions and options than the 2 enemies.

There are various options you can achieve this:

Debuffing PCs -- That would be Glitterdust, etc. -- I would not make this a central element of the encounter. I'd consider it as a side element, but making it the central element may mean it is either (1) ineffective, leading to a short fight without much drama, or (2) effective, leading to players not having fun playing their debuffed characters

Battlefield Control -- Similar to debuffs, I'd use caution. Black Tentacles can easily grapple most of the group, and similar to blinded PCs, strong battlefield control spells take characters (and their players) out of the fight.
Buffing -- Yes. With only two enemies, buff them heavily. I'd buff one defensively and one offensively. Potions of Haste, Expeditious Retreat, ability boosting, etc. -- and most of the good options have been posted, like Mirror Image etc.


I'd also have at least one summoning active. Perhaps the wizard managed to (lesser) planar bind a monster of appropriate CR with a scroll? Perhaps the encounter design will give them enough time to have a summoned monster.

In any case, 3-4 against 7 would be a better ratio, IMO.

Finally, I'd let the artificer use some kind of blasting.

[Kyouhen]

Have the artificer make himself a wand of Greater Invis and cast that every few rounds. Give him another wand of Wings of Cover. Make sure he has wand slots in all his equipment, and a dozen different short-term buffs and immediate actions in them. He's an artificer, he has access to spells the rest of the party can't use yet (though at decreased effectiveness). Throw him a wand of dispel magic to debuff anyone who can see him while he's invisible and go nuts.