The Duelist (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

[NeoSeraphi]

The Duelist

"So, what character concept did you have in mind for this game?" "Oh, I was thinking about playing a rogue, actually." "Really?" "Hell no! The rogue is a terrible class!" - Real life conversation between NeoSeraphi and his DM

The duelist is a skilled and trained warrior who fights with a rapier or a longsword, and uses his free hand to help himself balance and counter-attack. A duelist's repetoire of abilities allow him to be useful out of combat as well, often carrying a small bag of thieves' tools and other useful items to help him in his many tasks.

Duelists are well-known for their skill in making and disarming traps. Often an adventuring party will hire a duelist to accompany them to dangerous dungeons in order to search for and disable any hazards that they could otherwise not see.

Alignment: Any

Hit Dice: d8

Class Skills: The duelist's class skills are Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering), Knowledge (Local), Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Search, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble and Use Rope.

Skill Points: 6+Int per level

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+1|+0|+2|+0|Combat Reflexes, Trapfinding, Strike to the Heart +2d10, Targeted Strike

2nd|+2|+0|+3|+0|Evasion, Stramazzone

3rd|+3|+1|+3|+1|Parry, Strike to the Heart +4d10, Bonus Feat

4th|+4|+1|+4|+1|Stance of the Duelist, Clever Knockdown

5th|+5|+1|+4|+1|Strike to the Heart +6d10, Intelligent Reactions

6th|+6/+1|+2|+5|+2|Insightful Strike, Bonus Feat

7th|+7/+2|+2|+5|+2|Strike to the Heart +8d10, Deceptive Motion

8th|+8/+3|+2|+6|+2|Stance of the Duelist (+1), Riposte

9th|+9/+4|+3|+6|+3|Strike to the Heart +10d10, Improved Stramazzone, Bonus Feat

10th|+10/+5|+3|+7|+3|Graceful Retort, Passado

11th|+11/+6/+1|+3|+7|+3|Strike to the Heart +12d10, Tactical Repositioning

12th|+12/+7/+2|+4|+8|+4|Improved Evasion, Stance of the Duelist (+2), Bonus Feat

13th|+13/+8/+3|+4|+8|+4|Strike to the Heart +14d10, Primo Tempo

14th|+14/+9/+4|+4|+9|+4|Sharpened Blade

15th|+15/+10/+5|+5|+9|+5|Strike to the Heart +16d10, Bonus Feat

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+5|+10|+5|Stance of the Duelist (+3), Superior Stramazzone

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5|Strike to the Heart +18d10, Dancing Step

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+6|Catch Off Guard, Bonus Feat

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+6|Strike to the Heart +20d10, Backstab

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+6|Stance of the Duelist (+4), Uncanny Speed

[/table]

Class Features: The following are the class features of a duelist:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A duelist is proficient with all light and one-handed weapons, including all light and one-handed exotic weapons. For the purposes of determining proficiencies, he is not proficient with any ranged weapons. He is proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Combat Reflexes (Ex): A duelist receives the Combat Reflexes feat as a bonus feat. He need not meet the prerequisites.

Targeted Strike (Ex): Unlike a rogue or a swashbuckler, who use their understanding of weak spots to strike for extra damage, a duelist instead uses his understanding of an enemy's mind and their reactions, whether they are instinctive or of a higher degree than even his own.

A duelist adds his Intelligence modifier to his attack rolls with light or one-handed melee weapons, while he is holding nothing in his off hand. This bonus does not apply if the duelist is unable to see his target clearly (due to poor visual conditions, blindness, invisibility, cover, or concealment). The duelist can only add a maximum bonus of up to his class level to hit with this ability.

Trapfinding (Ex): Duelists (and only duelists, and rogues. And scouts. And ninjas. And spellthieves. And beguilers. And...you know what? Anything with the trapfinding class feature. There you go, SRD. Update this already) can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20.

Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

Duelists (and only duelists, and other duelist-ish classes) can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

A duelist who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.

Strike to the Heart (Ex): A duelist's skill with his weapon allows him to target a creature's weak spot and deliver a devastating blow that cripples his targets easily. Whenever a duelist confirms a critical hit against a creature with a melee weapon he is wielding in one hand and carrying nothing in his off hand, he deals an additional 2d10 points of damage. This bonus damage is not multiplied by the critical hit. At 3rd level, and every odd level afterwards, Strike to the Heart deals an additional +2d10 damage, with a maximum of +20d10 at level 19.

Strike to the Heart is not considered precision damage, and does not allow the duelist to qualify for or receive the benefits of feats, prestige classes, and certain spells that affect a character's Sneak Attack or other form of damage, with one exception. Strike to the Heart does allow the duelist to qualify for and take Ambush feats, which he may use with his Strike to the Heart class feature if he so chooses. Strike to the Heart does stack with Sneak Attack if both requirements are met. Any prestige class that advances a character's precision damage progression does not advance Strike to the Heart progression.

Strike to the Heart is considered to be bonus damage from a critical hit, however, the duelist's skilled use of his blade still allows him to devastate a creature with no discernible anatomy. Against a creature who is immune to critical hits, roll the confirmation anyway, and if it succeeds, the duelist deals additional damage equal to 1d10 per odd class level. (This does not allow him to actually deliver a critical hit, so he does not multiply his weapon damage, Strength bonus to damage, or activate any effects that only activate on a critical hit)

Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a duelist can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the duelist is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless duelist does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Stramazzone (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a duelist can make a series of strikes that are aimed to deliver a deadly finishing blow. As a standard action, a duelist may take a -2 penalty to all attack rolls made until the beginning of his next turn (including all attacks of opportunity he would make). He then is allowed to make two attacks at his highest attack bonus.

Alternatively, as a full-round action, a duelist may take the same penalty to his attack rolls and instead gain an additional attack at his highest attack bonus. If he does this, every attack he makes this round deals half damage, but with each successful attack, the next attack gains a cumulative +1 bonus to its critical threat range. When using Stramazzone in this way, attacks with the lowest bonus are made first (as opposed to normally highest bonus attacks are first). For example, a 6th level duelist wielding a rapier takes a -2 penalty to hit and makes 3 attacks with the attack routine -1/+4/+4. He hits with the first two, and deals half damage each time. On the third strike, he rolls a 16, which is treated as a critical threat because he hit with the first two and increased the weapon's threat range each time.

The bonus damage dice from Strike to the Heart is not halved by this effect. A duelist may only make a Stramazzone attack if he is wielding nothing in his off hand.

Parry (Ex): A 3rd level duelist begins to develop his talents, and this allows him to begin deflecting blows with ease. Starting at 3rd level, when the duelist is targeted by a melee attack, he may spend an attack of opportunity to make an opposed attack roll at his highest attack bonus, with a bonus on the roll equal to the flat bonus from his Stance of the Duelist class feature (+1 at 8th, +1 every four after). If he succeeds, he successfully blocks the attack roll and the attack is treated as if it missed him. A duelist is unable to use the Parry ability if he is holding anything in his off hand.

A duelist's skill with his blade and his training at turning his enemy's momentum against them means that he is able to block blows with grace and skill, not with strength. The relative size of the duelist's weapon to his opponent's is completely irrelevant for the purposes of this ability.

Bonus Feat (Ex): At 3rd level, and every 3 levels after that, the duelist gains a bonus feat. These feats must be selected from the following list, and the duelist must meet all qualifications for them:

Adaptable Flanker (PHB II), Cobalt Expertise (Magic of Incarnum)*, Cloaked Combat Expert (PHB II), Combat Expertise, Defensive Strike (Complete Warrior), Defensive Throw (Complete Warrior), Deft Opportunist (Complete Adventurer), Dodge, Expert Tactician (Complete Adventurer), Hindering Opportunist (PHB II), Hold the Line (Complete Warrior), Improved Combat Expertise (Complete Warrior) Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, Karmic Strike (Complete Warrior), Mobility, Pursue (Eberron Campaign Setting)**, Robilar's Gambit (PHB II), Spring Attack, Stalwart Defense (PHB II), Supernatural Instincts (Tyrants of the Nine Hells), Vexing Flanker (PHB II)

*The insight bonus to your AC from this feat is instead untyped

** If the duelist is playing a game where action points are not being used, he may instead power this feat by spending one attack of opportunity for the round.

Stance of the Duelist (Ex): A duelist does not only use his reflexes to dodge incoming blows. He also uses his intelligence to prepare himself and decide which blows will come from where. He is able to supplement his quick speed with his uncanny forethought, allowing him to dodge blows before they are anywhere near him.

Starting at 4th level, a duelist receives an insight bonus to his AC equal to his Intelligence bonus (if any), to a maximum of his class level. This bonus is lost if he is flat-footed, helpless, or otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus to AC. It also does not apply if he is wearing medium or heavy armor or carrying anything in his off-hand.

At 8th level, and every 4 levels after that, the duelist's insight bonus to his AC increases by +1, to a maximum of +4 at 20th.

Clever Knockdown (Ex): Starting at 4th level, whenever a creature provokes an attack of opportunity from the duelist, the duelist can forgo his attack to make a Trip attack. If he does so, he adds his Intelligence bonus to his check to knock the creature prone, in addition to his Strength bonus. Because this ability is performed with subtle evasion and use of the creature's own Strength against it, the duelist is able to use this ability regardless of the attacking creature's Size category.

If the duelist successfully knocks a creature prone using Clever Knockdown, the creature provokes an attack of opportunity from all the duelist's allies who threaten it (but not the duelist himself). These attacks are resolved after the creature has fallen prone.

Intelligent Reactions (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a duelist adds his Intelligence bonus (if he has one) to the number of attacks of opportunity he is allowed to make per round.

Insightful Strike (Ex): Starting at 6th level, a duelist may add his Intelligence modifier to his weapon damage rolls when he is holding nothing in his off-hand. Additionally, a duelist adds his Intelligence modifier to his critical confirmation rolls.

Deceptive Motion (Ex): The duelist's movements are generally so direct and precise that when he actually gets unpredictable, it throws most creatures for a loop.

Starting at 7th level, a duelist may Feint in Combat as a swift action. Additionally, the duelist adds his Dexterity bonus (if any) to his Bluff check made to Feint in Combat.

Additionally, if a duelist successfully hits a creature he has Feinted in Combat, he may make an immediate Disarm check as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. The duelist receives a +4 bonus on this check if he has the Improved Feint feat, and a +2 synergy bonus if he has at least 5 ranks in Bluff.

If the duelist succeeds his Disarm check, he knocks the weapon aside with his own, rather than simply knocking it down. The weapon flies 10 feet to either the duelist's left or right (the player's choice). If the weapon would hit an obstacle (such as a tree, wall, or another creature) the weapon stops in that square, prone (it does not damage the obstacle).

If the duelist fails his Disarm check, the opponent does not get a chance to Disarm him (as the Feinting has left the creature semi-flat-footed).

Riposte (Ex): Starting at 8th level, whenever a duelist successfully uses his Parry class feature to deflect a melee attack, the attacker provokes an attack of opportunity from the duelist.

Improved Stramazzone (Ex): Starting at 9th level, as a standard action a duelist may take a -2 penalty to his attack rolls for the round. If he does, he may make a full attack as a standard action. (This cannot be used with the other version of Stramazzone, as that takes a full-round action to use)

Additionally, the penalty to the full-round action attacks from Stramazzone disappears, and when using the full-round Stramazzone ability, the duelist receives a second additional attack at his highest attack bonus.

Graceful Retort (Ex): A duelist is a master of exploiting an enemy's openings, whether they be a chance to deliver a counter attack, or a chance to deliver a finishing blow.

Starting at 10th level, whenever a creature provokes an attack of opportunity from the duelist while the duelist is carrying nothing in his off hand, he may expend an additional attack of opportunity (total of 2). If he does so, and his attack of opportunity hits, it automatically threatens a critical hit.

Passado (Ex): A duelist is a master of responding to other creature's openings. He gives no quarter, and does not hesitate to strike with deadly force when a fool leaves himself open to attack.

Starting at 10th level, the area a duelist threatens extends by 5'. This is not readily obvious, but when a creature that is in that position (5' outside of the duelist's natural reach) and would provoke an attack of opportunity from the duelist, the duelist may consume one of his remaining attacks of opportunity for the round to take a 5' step as a free action, interrupting the creature and resolving his attack of opportunity. As it is not readily obvious, creatures do not expect or anticipate it unless they have seen the duelist do it firsthand.

Any creature the duelist threatens (including ones that are 5' outside his natural reach) treat all squares the duelist threatens as difficult terrain. Any creature that the duelist threatens is unable to take the "Cast defensively" option. Finally, a prone creature that the duelist threatens provokes an attack of opportunity for standing up, even if he takes a full-round action to do so.

Tactical Repositioning (Ex): At 11th level, a duelist is able to Tumble up to half his movement speed as a swift action. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

To do this, the duelist must make a Tumble check (DC 20). If he fails the check, his movement provokes attacks of opportunity from all enemies that threaten him, and if any attacks hit him, he falls prone in the square he is in.

Improved Evasion (Ex): At level 12, the duelist's evasion improves. This ability works like evasion, except that while the duelist still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth he takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless duelist does not gain the benefit of improved evasion. The duelist also is unable to receive the benefits of improved evasion unless he is wearing light or no armor.

Pro Tempo (Ex): A duelist's movements are so fast that a creature who is rushing right at him does not even noticed he's moved, he just stops cold when he feels the duelist's blade jammed right into his stomach.

Starting at 13th level, when the duelist uses his free action 5' step to intercept a creature who is charging at him (by moving through the square that the duelist threatens, even though the creature does not know he threatens it), he automatically threatens a critical hit with his attack of opportunity. If his attack hits and deals damage (whether it is a critical hit or not) the creature's full-round action is interrupted, they are unable to continue moving, and they lose their attack. The penalty to their AC from charging increases by -2. (So -4 for most instances)

Sharpened Blade (Ex): A duelist's weapon is an instrument, and he is able to use it to its fullest extents. Starting at 14th level, a duelist increases the threat range of his weapon by 1. (20 becomes 19-20, 19-20 becomes 18-20, and 18-20 becomes 17-20). If the duelist's weapon is keen or if he has the Improved Critical feat, etc, then the increases stack, but the increase from Sharpened Blade comes after the doubled threat. (Base 18-20 becomes 14-20)

Superior Stramazzone (Ex): Starting at 16th level, the penalty to the duelist's attack rolls when using the standard action Improved Stramazzone disappears.

Additionally, when the duelist uses the full-round version of Stramazzone, he no longer deals half-damage with his attacks.

Dancing Step (Ex): A duelist is a performer, able to easily outmaneuver his opponent with grace and style, before delivering the final blow. Starting at 17th level, when a duelist would be struck by an attack, whether that attack is magical or mundane, he may make a Reflex save. The DC is equal to the attack roll. If he succeeds, the duelist takes no damage. This feature requires consuming an attack of opportunity for the round, and may only be used against an attack that required an attack roll. (So it may be used against melee attacks, ranged attacks, and weaponlike spells, but not other spells). A duelist may not use Dancing Step unless he is carrying nothing in at least one of his hands.

Catch Off Guard (Ex): A duelist knows that a blade is not his only weapon in battle. A slight dodge to the left or right, or a carefully worded insult, can catch his opponent off-guard, and as soon as they open themselves up, the duelist strikes. One blow, aimed right at the heart.

Starting at 18th level, when a duelist uses the Feint in Combat action and he succeeds his Bluff check, his next melee attack against his opponent while carrying nothing in his off hand automatically threatens a critical hit. (This benefit is in addition to the normal benefit of Feinting in Combat, denying the target his Dexterity bonus to his AC)

Backstab (Ex): The duelist's blade moves faster than the eye can see. And if the creature has a hard time seeing the duelist to begin with, the duelist can take advantage of its distraction, in much the same way as a rogue. Beginning at 19th level, once per round, while the duelist attacks a creature he is currently flanking with an ally, he treat one of his successful attacks as if it were a confirmed critical hit. The duelist may use this ability after he has rolled his attack roll, but must declare he used the ability before he knows if it hit or not.

Uncanny Speed (Ex): The duelist's planning, along with his skill and speed, allow him to control the flow of battle like a chessboard. Starting at 20th level, once per round a duelist may spend five attacks of opportunity as an immediate action to take a full-round action, or a move action and a standard action, or two move actions. A duelist does not gain a swift action with this ability.

A duelist who uses Uncanny Speed is denied 5 additional attacks of opportunity during the following round, in addition to the five he consumed to activate the ability.

[Sgt. Cookie]

OK, NeoSeraphi, let's begin the PEACHing.


Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A duelist is proficient with all light and one-handed weapons, including all light and one-handed exotic weapons. For the purposes of determining proficiencies, he is not proficient with any ranged weapons. He is proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

This certainly looks good.


Combat Reflexes (Ex): A duelist receives the Combat Reflexes feat as a bonus feat. He need not meet the prerequisites.

Personally, I'm not sure this makes sense. A Duelist is capable of attacking multiple times or attacking multiple targets? A duel, by definition, is a one on one fight. Improved parry only grants one AoO, so the effectiveness of Combat Reflexes is limited. Weapon finesse would make much more sense for this class, given that it relies on dexterity more than strength.


Trapfinding (Ex): Duelists (and only duelists, and rogues. And scouts. And ninjas. And spellthieves. And beguilers. And...you know what? Anything with the trapfinding class feature. There you go, SRD. Update this already) can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20.

Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

Duelists (and only duelists, and other duelist-ish classes) can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

A rogue who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.

Flavour wise, not sure how this works. I understand the intention of creating a more combat effective rouge, but beyond that. Looks fine.


Strike to the Heart (Ex): A duelist's skill with his weapon allows him to target a creature's weak spot and deliver a devastating blow that cripples his targets easily. Whenever a duelist confirms a critical hit against a creature with a melee weapon he is wielding in one hand and carrying nothing in his off hand, he deals an additional 2d10 points of damage. This bonus damage is not multiplied by the critical hit. At 3rd level, and every odd level afterwards, Strike to the Heart deals an additional +2d10 damage, with a maximum of +20d10 at level 19.

Strike to the Heart is not considered precision damage, and does not allow the duelist to qualify for or receive the benefits of feats, prestige classes, and certain spells that affect a character's Sneak Attack or other form of damage, with one exception. Strike to the Heart does allow the duelist to qualify for and take Ambush feats, which he may use with his Strike to the Heart class feature if he so chooses. Strike to the Heart does stack with Sneak Attack if both requirements are met. Any prestige class that advances a character's precision damage progression does not advance Strike to the Heart progression.

Strike to the Heart is considered to be bonus damage from a critical hit. It is prevented by the fortification ability and does not apply to creatures immune to critical hits.

Flavourful, effective, only really useful at higher Duelist levels, due to increased crit chance. But beyond that, good.


Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a duelist can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the duelist is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless duelist does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Looks fine, works with the flavour well.


Parry (Ex): A 3rd level duelist begins to develop his talents, and this allows him to begin deflecting blows with ease. Starting at 3rd level, when the duelist is targeted with a melee attack, he may expend an immediate action to make a Perform (Weapon Drill) check, with a DC equal to the attack roll. If he succeeds, he successfully blocks the attack roll and the attack is treated as if it missed him. A duelist is unable to use the Parry ability if he is holding anything in his off hand.

A duelist's skill with his blade and his training at turning his enemy's momentum against them means that he is able to block blows with grace and skill, not with strength. The relative size of the duelist's weapon to his opponent's is completely irrelevant for the purposes of this ability.

Looks good, effective too. Relies on a skill though, so unless the player pumps the Perform skill, will be of limited use.


Stance of the Duelist (Ex): A duelist does not only use his reflexes to dodge incoming blows. He also uses his intelligence to prepare himself and decide which blows will come from where. He is able to supplement his quick speed with his uncanny forethought, allowing him to dodge blows before they are anywhere near him.

Starting at 4th level, a duelist receives an insight bonus to his AC equal to his Intelligence bonus (if any), to a maximum of his class level. This bonus is lost if he is flat-footed, helpless, or otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus to AC. It also does not apply if he is wearing medium or heavy armor or carrying anything in his off-hand.

At 8th level, and every 4 levels after that, the duelist's insight bonus to his AC increases by +1, to a maximum of +4 at 20th.

Looks fine but the 8th level thing is confusing. Does it mean that at level 20 you may have a maximum insight bonus of 24, or does it mean that a level 20 Duelist with an Int mod of 5 has an insight bonus of 9?


Targeted Strike (Ex): Unlike a rogue or a swashbuckler, who use their understanding of weak spots to strike for extra damage, a duelist instead uses his understanding of an enemy's mind and their reactions, whether they are instinctive or of a higher degree than even his own.

Starting at 6th level, a duelist adds his Intelligence modifier to his attack rolls with light or one-handed melee weapons, while he is holding nothing in his off hand. This bonus does not apply if the duelist is unable to see his target clearly (due to poor visual conditions, blindness, invisibility, cover, or concealment)

Looks fine.


Improved Parry (Ex): Starting at 8th level, whenever a duelist successfully uses his Parry class feature to deflect a melee attack, the attacker provokes an attack of opportunity from the duelist.

Ok, this looks good.


Graceful Retort (Ex): A duelist is a master of exploiting an enemy's openings, whether they be a chance to deliver a counter attack, or a chance to deliver a finishing blow.

Starting at 10th level, whenever a creature provokes an attack of opportunity from the duelist while the duelist is carrying nothing in his off hand, he may expend all of his remaining attacks of opportunity for the round (he must have at least 2 remaining to use this ability). If he does so, and his attack of opportunity hits, it automatically threatens a critical hit.

This is the only thing that this synergieses with is Combat Reflexes, and even with Improved Parry it's doubtful that this ability would be used often.


Improved Evasion (Ex): At level 12, the duelist's evasion improves. This ability works like evasion, except that while the duelist still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth he takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless duelist does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

I have a pet peeve with Improved Evasion, by RAW it can be used in full plate. Unless that was intended, I would recommend that you state the light or no armour thing again.


Sharpened Blade (Ex): A duelist's weapon is an instrument, and he is able to use it to its fullest extents. Starting at 14th level, a duelist increases the threat range of his weapon by 1. (20 becomes 19-20, 19-20 becomes 18-20, and 18-20 becomes 17-20). If the duelist's weapon is keen or if he has the Improved Critical feat, etc, then the increases stack, but the increase from Sharpened Blade comes after the doubled threat. (Base 18-20 becomes 14-20)

Ok, with this. Graceful retort becomes redundant. With the right feats and weapon stats, you will be threatening a crit half the time.


Catch Off Guard (Ex): A duelist knows that a blade is not his only weapon in battle. A slight dodge to the left or right, or a carefully worded insult, can catch his opponent off-guard, and as soon as they open themselves up, the duelist strikes. One blow, aimed right at the heart.

Starting at 18th level, a duelist may Feint in Combat as a swift action. If he succeeds his Bluff check, his next melee attack against his opponent while carrying nothing in his off hand automatically threatens a critical hit. (This benefit is in addition to the normal benefit of Feinting in Combat, denying the target his Dexterity bonus to his AC)

Looks good, but unless the player is feint-happy, Sharpened Blade makes this ability redundant.


Trap Master (Ex): A 20th level duelist is not swayed by the intricacies of a trap, metal or magical. Starting at 20th level, a duelist who fails his Disable Device check against a trap by less than 6 is able to try again with no penalties and without triggering the trap accidentally.

The duelist is able to craft magical traps with no problem, without needing to be able to cast the spell of the trap he is forging.

A duelist who succeeds his Disable Device check against a trap and beats the DC by 15 or more may actually remove the trigger of the trap and place it elsewhere. This is useful for actually catching the person who set the trap off-guard, as they are expecting the trigger to be in its original location, not, say, 40 ft in front of it, which will still put them in danger of the trap when they set it off, but they won't be thinking to Search that square before they enter it.

Finally, a 20th level duelist is able to make Open Lock checks against doors sealed with arcane lock, with a -5 penalty on the check.

Mechanically, I see no problem. Flavour wise, makes no sense.


All in all, nice but not really that effective.

[Yitzi]

In the conversation you provided, the person who said rogue is a terrible class was just plain wrong, unless the game was going to be hack-and-slash (or maybe a dungeon crawl.)

That said, this is a pretty decent replacement for the rogue for dungeon crawls.

[NeoSeraphi]

Personally, I'm not sure this makes sense. A Duelist is capable of attacking multiple times or attacking multiple targets? A duel, by definition, is a one on one fight. Improved parry only grants one AoO, so the effectiveness of Combat Reflexes is limited. Weapon finesse would make much more sense for this class, given that it relies on dexterity more than strength.


The class is an Einhander fix. (I've put out a fix for every other sub-optimal weapon style, just not fight with a one-handed weapon and no shield). Weapon Finesse is a good feat, I'm sure most duelists will be taking it. Doesn't mean I'm giving it away for free.



Flavour wise, not sure how this works. I understand the intention of creating a more combat effective rouge, but beyond that. Looks fine.


A duelist is a character who studies the mechanics of traps as well as skilled combat. (That's why I gave them Trapfinding, Trap Master, Disable Device, Search and Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering)



Flavourful, effective, only really useful at higher Duelist levels, due to increased crit chance. But beyond that, good.


Thank you




Looks good, effective too. Relies on a skill though, so unless the player pumps the Perform skill, will be of limited use.


So does Hide in Plain Sight and the Track ability of a ranger. And of course, trapfinding is of limited use if you don't put ranks in Search and Disable Device. Classes encourage certain skills over others all the time.



Looks fine but the 8th level thing is confusing. Does it mean that at level 20 you may have a maximum insight bonus of 24, or does it mean that a level 20 Duelist with an Int mod of 5 has an insight bonus of 9?


It means that a 20th level duelist with an Int mod of 5 has an insight bonus of +9.




This is the only thing that this synergieses with is Combat Reflexes, and even with Improved Parry it's doubtful that this ability would be used often.

Seeing as you could use it once per round that you were being attacked, I'm inclined to disagree with you there.




I have a pet peeve with Improved Evasion, by RAW it can be used in full plate. Unless that was intended, I would recommend that you state the light or no armour thing again.

Seeing as you don't move when you evade, I don't see why you couldn't be wearing full plate during it. :smallwink: But okay, I added that clause in.


Ok, with this. Graceful retort becomes redundant. With the right feats and weapon stats, you will be threatening a crit half the time.

As you should be.


Looks good, but unless the player is feint-happy, Sharpened Blade makes this ability redundant.

Bluff is a good social skill. Most players I've seen who were using a class with Bluff as a class skill always saved some ranks for it. Besides, one free crit per round isn't that redundant by Sharpened Blade, since Sharpened Blade will generally only raise your crit rate to half or so.



All in all, nice but not really that effective.

And that was my problem with rogues and Einhanders to begin with. But I think this makes them both a little bit better.

[Seerow]

Initial question from just glancing at it: Why is strike to the heart +2d6 per 2 levels rather than a simpler progression of 1d6 per level? I get that you're wanting to keep parity with rogues who are getting their 1d6 on odd levels and applying it to two weapons, but I'm not sure such a strict following of that is actually necessary for balance.

[NeoSeraphi]

Initial question from just glancing at it: Why is strike to the heart +2d6 per 2 levels rather than a simpler progression of 1d6 per level? I get that you're wanting to keep parity with rogues who are getting their 1d6 on odd levels and applying it to two weapons, but I'm not sure such a strict following of that is actually necessary for balance.

It's +2d10, not +2d6. And the reason that it progresses slower is because very few base class features progress by level, where as abilities that progress every other level (Access to higher spell, power, and maneuver levels, sneak attack, skirmish, sudden strike, steal spell, etc) are rather common.

[Seerow]

Okay I made a more in depth reading. There's some good stuff here, but a lot of problems with the class as well.

Overall my problems are summed up as this:
-You have an int focus for the class, but with nothing to encourage int for the first 4 levels.
-A duelist should still use dex, yet you have almost nothing encouraging this. You should get either Int or Dex to hit starting at first level. Get the other at a higher level if desired.
-The class is going to absolutely suck against anything crit immune. Even worse than a normal rogue, because you're attacking with a single one handed weapon, with no other bonus damage that can apply. How's it feel being level 20 and dealing 1d8+7 damage? Because that is a very realistic possibility here.
-The feature that gives you a free crit threat on an AoO should have a set cost. Taking everything for the rest of the round can mean taking up as little as 2, or as many as 15. That's way too much variability. My recommendation is make a set cost, but add more things in that use AoOs as cost to use them, giving a quasi-resource for the Duelist that already exists in the system.
-Parry using perform weapon drill is going to scale weirdly. I also don't think it needs to be an immediate action (what duelist can parry only once a round?). Make this another AoO using ability, that does an opposed attack roll (possibly with a bonus) to parry.
-The class has pretty much crap for mobility options, and almost nothing as far as action economy efficiency goes. One swift action at high levels, one immediate action that should be an opportunity action, nothing.
-Speaking of, feinting as a swift action should come far earlier. For 18 levels you literally never feint, never have any reason to want bluff or charisma, then at 18 suddenly you want it all the time.
-The class's capstone doesn't reflect the class in the slightest. Seriously, duelists aren't all about traps. I'm leery of it even having trapfinding, but a trapmaster level 20 feature? That's bull****. Kick that **** out and put in a capstone that actually fits the class.

To be perfectly honest, I'd take a Rogue over this class. As a rogue, I can UMD Gravestrike/Golemstrike wands to hit things that are normally crit immune (where you explicitly disallowed those from working with the Duelist bonus damage by saying it's not precision damage and won't work with spells that affect it as such), making him more widely useful. This class is explosive when things are going your way, but the higher level you get the less likely that is to happen.

Suggestions:
+Strike to the Heart is treated as Crit Damage or Precision Damage, whichever is more beneficial to the Duelist.
+A fraction of Strike to the Heart can be applied to non-crits at high levels (say 1/4th, so 1d10 at lvl 3, 2d10 at 7, and so on)
+Int to Crit Confirms
+Int to AoOs per round (Especially if going with the above suggestion that you turn AoOs into a resource for the Duelist)
+Dex to something (even if you want int as a primary stat, duelists should still be really fast and agile)
+Int or Dex to damage
+Auto Crit Threat ability should have a set cost
+Some way to deal with crit immune creatures. Gain the ability to crit against undead, constructs, oozes, etc. This is necessary for the class to function
+Extra mobility. An extra 5 ft step per round, ability to take 5ft step plus move action, move action as a swift or immediate action
+Extra control, provoke AoOs from 5ft steps, get a lunging strike that lets others provoke from you/lets you attack someone further away than normal once per turn
+Bonus attacks, you need to push out attacks to force a crit, some sort of flurry feature would be ideal here. Maybe the ability to trade a swift action for a couple of extra attacks would be cool as well.
+Swift action feint at low levels
+Feint gets a bonus from either int or dex
+High level ability instead gives free crit threat any time target is denied dex to AC (rather than just after a feint)

[NeoSeraphi]

Suggestions:
+Strike to the Heart is treated as Crit Damage or Precision Damage, whichever is more beneficial to the Duelist.


It's not precision damage. If it was, he could use it just by catching them off-guard or aiming, like a rogue or a scout.



+A fraction of Strike to the Heart can be applied to non-crits at high levels (say 1/4th, so 1d10 at lvl 3, 2d10 at 7, and so on)

Just a static +5d10 to all weapon damage rolls, huh? That's...not fair.



+Int to Crit Confirms

Sure



+Int to AoOs per round (Especially if going with the above suggestion that you turn AoOs into a resource for the Duelist)

The duelist already gets Dex to AoOs per round (with the Combat Reflexes feat). I'm not looking to make an SAD class here.



+Dex to something (even if you want int as a primary stat, duelists should still be really fast and agile)

Alright, let me think about it.



+Int or Dex to damage

Alright.



+Auto Crit Threat ability should have a set cost

No, since I'm not going to just throw on d10s to non-crit attacks, in order for you to get much use out of Strike to the Heart, you need unlimited use of the auto-crit threat abilities.



+Some way to deal with crit immune creatures. Gain the ability to crit against undead, constructs, oozes, etc. This is necessary for the class to function

No. DM counters are an important part of homebrew. I always try to consider what weaknesses should be in a class and I place them in. There are a lot of creatures who are immune to critical hits, but that's why the duelist can make traps. I suppose I'll give him another bonus for trapmaking earlier on though, to encourage it.



+Extra mobility. An extra 5 ft step per round, ability to take 5ft step plus move action, move action as a swift or immediate action

Why? Abusing the action economy is a bad thing.



+Extra control, provoke AoOs from 5ft steps, get a lunging strike that lets others provoke from you/lets you attack someone further away than normal once per turn

Okay, this one is good. I'll figure out how to implement it and add it in.



+Bonus attacks, you need to push out attacks to force a crit, some sort of flurry feature would be ideal here. Maybe the ability to trade a swift action for a couple of extra attacks would be cool as well.

I suppose since the duelist can only use weaker weapons, a flourish of rapier strikes wouldn't be too unbalancing.



+Swift action feint at low levels

Swift action feinting is a powerful ability, especially since I gave it the ability to auto-crit. I'd rather leave it where it is.



+Feint gets a bonus from either int or dex

Sure, I can see a smart duelist using his understanding of his opponents to influence his feinting actions.


+High level ability instead gives free crit threat any time target is denied dex to AC (rather than just after a feint)

Alright, that's a good idea too.

Long story short, some of your suggestions were just not the power level that I was attempting to reach here. (They were going to make the class stronger than I wanted it to be). I appreciate your help though, Seerow.

[Seerow]

Long story short, some of your suggestions were just not the power level that I was attempting to reach here. (They were going to make the class stronger than I wanted it to be). I appreciate your help though, Seerow.


In that case why not just stick with the Rogue? You're saying the rogue sucks, but are balancing this class at a point where it is literally worse than the rogue in every meaningful way.





And your whole thing about DM counters is retarded, because a DM counter that makes a class literally unable to do any meaningful damage isn't just a counter, it's invalidating the class as a whole. It is basically the pinnacle of bad design.


Anyway specific arguments:



Just a static +5d10 to all weapon damage rolls, huh? That's...not fair.[quote]

Average 30 damage? As in less than a rogue's bonus to damage rolls while making at least twice as many attacks? As in one half of a mid op barbarian gets for free on every attack?

[quote]The duelist already gets Dex to AoOs per round (with the Combat Reflexes feat). I'm not looking to make an SAD class here.


The idea is to make it dual attribute dependent, giving both int and dex to AoOs, and then spreading out abilities that use both int and dex, so the duelist wants both, and abilities that consume AoOs for cool effects, so the higher dex/int the class gets the more of its resource it gets, which is pretty cool.


No, since I'm not going to just throw on d10s to non-crit attacks, in order for you to get much use out of Strike to the Heart, you need unlimited use of the auto-crit threat abilities.


Here's the thing, the free crit threat costs anything from 2 to 15 AoO uses for a normal character. That is a ridiculous swing in resource cost. So most people simply wouldn't use it.


No. DM counters are an important part of homebrew. I always try to consider what weaknesses should be in a class and I place them in. There are a lot of creatures who are immune to critical hits, but that's why the duelist can make traps. I suppose I'll give him another bonus for trapmaking earlier on though, to encourage it.


See above for the first half. But seriously traps are COMPLETELY out of flavor for a duelist to be using in the first place, and using them as your answer to not being able to actually fight as a duelist is retarded.


Why? Abusing the action economy is a bad thing.


Abusing the action economy is bad. Using the action economy is good, and necessary. You NEED good swift and immediate actions, to compete, and extra mobility is something that all melee in general sorely lack that is necessary, and considered iconic for a Duelist.


Swift action feinting is a powerful ability, especially since I gave it the ability to auto-crit. I'd rather leave it where it is.


That's why my followup suggestion was to put the autocrit as a separate ability. Feinting as a swift action should be happening at a much lower level.

[Yitzi]

And your whole thing about DM counters is retarded, because a DM counter that makes a class literally unable to do any meaningful damage isn't just a counter, it's invalidating the class as a whole. It is basically the pinnacle of bad design.

That really depends on how often it's usable, and at what cost. (For instance, a counter that totally invalidates one class, but makes the recipient take double damage, is not really invalidating the class; the very presence of that class forcing the counter to be used is effectively doubling the other party members' damage.)

[Seerow]

That really depends on how often it's usable, and at what cost. (For instance, a counter that totally invalidates one class, but makes the recipient take double damage, is not really invalidating the class; the very presence of that class forcing the counter to be used is effectively doubling the other party members' damage.)

We're talking about a large chunk of creatures straight from the monster manual, not to mention a common gear that may come up at high levels, completely shutting down the primary feature of the class, and then expecting the class to fall back on ****ing traps though. I mean really, traps? What the ****? I thought this was a duelist not a damn ranger.

[NeoSeraphi]

In that case why not just stick with the Rogue? You're saying the rogue sucks, but are balancing this class at a point where it is literally worse than the rogue in every meaningful way.



Not true. I hate rogues because they have no survivability. d6 hit dice and only light armor? Every rogue I have seen played at our tables has died more times than all other characters in the party combined. The rogue's survivability either depends on magical items (which are expensive and not always available, seeing as we don't play with magic marts in every town) or other party members, which it shouldn't.

The duelist, on the other hand, has more hit points, more AC, the Parry ability, and Improved Evasion.

Plus, the duelist has higher BAB. That's another thing I clearly improved.


And your whole thing about DM counters is retarded, because a DM counter that makes a class literally unable to do any meaningful damage isn't just a counter, it's invalidating the class as a whole. It is basically the pinnacle of bad design.

And what would you suggest? It doesn't make sense to deliver a critical hit against creatures without an anatomy. At all. If you choose to play a character who is focused on critical hits, you will own (especially with this class, because the bonus is so freaking high), so you shouldn't complain if occasionally you get shot down and feel weaker for an encounter.

Immunity to critical hits is not that common. I personally have never fought a plant creature in any of my games, I don't even know how many there are. Swarms are mostly immune to weapon damage anyway. And generally speaking, if I see an ooze, my first reaction is not "Hey, let's fight that thing!" no matter what kind of character I'm playing.

As for undead and constructs, well, if you take away Strike to the Heart, the character is dealing as much damage as a fighter with the same weapon, only the fighter probably has more Strength. As I have added Int to damage (with no precision specification, it's simply Int to damage) there is no real issue here.






Just a static +5d10 to all weapon damage rolls, huh? That's...not fair.[quote]

[QUOTE]Average 30 damage? As in less than a rogue's bonus to damage rolls while making at least twice as many attacks? As in one half of a mid op barbarian gets for free on every attack?

Yes. The rogue doesn't get those bonuses unless he's flanking, and the barbarian gets them because he worked for it or he has a high Strength. If I'm wielding a dagger and I have 10 Strength, I should not be dealing 30 damage unless I crit. Period.



The idea is to make it dual attribute dependent, giving both int and dex to AoOs, and then spreading out abilities that use both int and dex, so the duelist wants both, and abilities that consume AoOs for cool effects, so the higher dex/int the class gets the more of its resource it gets, which is pretty cool.

Alright, I guess that will work then. I'll add the Int to AoOs at 5th level.



Here's the thing, the free crit threat costs anything from 2 to 15 AoO uses for a normal character. That is a ridiculous swing in resource cost. So most people simply wouldn't use it.

Oh, that's what you meant. I thought you were talking about Catch Off-Guard. Yeah, no, I'm going to give that ability a set cost, don't worry.



See above for the first half. But seriously traps are COMPLETELY out of flavor for a duelist to be using in the first place, and using them as your answer to not being able to actually fight as a duelist is retarded.

That's the second time you've used abrasive language in this single post, and I'm certainly not feeling too pleased about it. But I've removed the traps from the class.



Abusing the action economy is bad. Using the action economy is good, and necessary. You NEED good swift and immediate actions, to compete, and extra mobility is something that all melee in general sorely lack that is necessary, and considered iconic for a Duelist.

I don't know what kind of duelists you've seen, but generally speaking, when I watch someone I consider to be a duelist fight, he stays in the fray, fighting against one person and parrying his blows, maybe tumbling around a bit, but not moving particularly fast or far.


That's why my followup suggestion was to put the autocrit as a separate ability. Feinting as a swift action should be happening at a much lower level.

I guess. Seeing as he doesn't gain any benefit other than a small bonus to hit, I suppose it's do-able.

[NeoSeraphi]

Added quite a few new abilities. Thinking about what to do with the capstone.

[Seerow]

Not true. I hate rogues because they have no survivability. d6 hit dice and only light armor? Every rogue I have seen played at our tables has died more times than all other characters in the party combined. The rogue's survivability either depends on magical items (which are expensive and not always available, seeing as we don't play with magic marts in every town) or other party members, which it shouldn't.

The duelist, on the other hand, has more hit points, more AC, the Parry ability, and Improved Evasion.

Rogues can get improved evasion if they care. The extra HP is one hp per level on average which doesn't really matter all that much. The bonus AC and Parry are the real winners here, as you initially wrote it parry was a 1/round thing which is nearly useless, and even a high AC stops mattering at mid-high levels... so I'm not sure exactly what it is you were trying to fix.


Plus, the duelist has higher BAB. That's another thing I clearly improved.





And what would you suggest? It doesn't make sense to deliver a critical hit against creatures without an anatomy. At all. If you choose to play a character who is focused on critical hits, you will own (especially with this class, because the bonus is so freaking high).

Why not? They don't have anatomy so you can't find some way to hit them harder than normal? Even if you gave only half the normal crit damage bonus, or allowed crits but not the bonus dice against those types, you won't suck quite so bad. As it is, if your party runs into a necromancer, you may as well go take up a room at the inn and start drinking for all the good you'll actually contribute. Or run into constructs. Or elementals.

Yeah plants and slimes may not be common enemies. But the things I just listed are. Not to mention most spellcasters have easy access to heavy fortification (via the elemental spells, which are hr/level so require no optimization to have up basically all day every day), and the fortification property is hardly a rare thing.



As for undead and constructs, well, if you take away Strike to the Heart, the character is dealing as much damage as a fighter with the same weapon, only the fighter probably has more Strength. As I have added Int to damage (with no precision specification, it's simply Int to damage) there is no real issue here.

The thing is, the fighter will not being using the same weapon. This is a key problem you are overlooking. You are building a class around a sub-optimal fighting style. The fighter/barbarian will be using a two handed weapon. The rogue will be using two weapons. When comparing average damage to other classes, you have to keep this in mind.

You're looking at 1d8+enhancements+2-3(str)+8-12(int) = average 17 damage a hit. From a level 20 character. Even with his full BAB getting 4 attacks in a round, hitting an average of 3 of them, that's 50 damage in a round.

Compare to your Barbarian with a similar base strength raging and wielding a two handed weapon, dealing 2d6+enhancements+21(str) = average 28 damage a hit. 50% higher before even considering power attacking (which will widen that gap further, as the Barbarian has a higher hit (unless you have both dex and int to hit, which I don't think is the case) rate and better power attack exchange rate).


Even if in the end the higher crit stuff from duelist balances out to the same average damage per round, the Barbarian is the straight up winner because his damage doesn't get shut down by half the creatures he's actually likely to face.





Yes. The rogue doesn't get those bonuses unless he's flanking, and the barbarian gets them because he worked for it or he has a high Strength. If I'm wielding a dagger and I have 10 Strength, I should not be dealing 30 damage unless I crit. Period.

So put some conditional on it. Use an opportunity action as a part of an attack to distract your opponent for the attack, adding 1/4th your strike to the heart bonus damage. Now you have the duelist actually doing something to provoke that extra damage, while making it more widely usable.






That's the second time you've used abrasive language in this single post, and I'm certainly not feeling too pleased about it. But I've removed the traps from the class.

I'll tone it down a notch. I just think that a class that loses more than half its damage potential and a good chunk of its class features from something as common as immunity to critical hits is stupid. It's like a Fighter being stuck on the ground shooting arrows at the flying creature because he has no way to fly himself, or any other way to deal with the flying creature. He can do it, but doing so is invalidating his presence in the party completely.



I don't know what kind of duelists you've seen, but generally speaking, when I watch someone I consider to be a duelist fight, he stays in the fray, fighting against one person and parrying his blows, maybe tumbling around a bit, but not moving particularly fast or far.

Well you apparently also watched duelists who set up traps in the middle of a fight to deal with opponents so :P

Footwork and mobility is a big part of being a duelist, it's what separates them from the fighter with a rapier. They don't use it to go charging 80 ft and full attack like a charging barbarian, they use it tactically, to move into a better position, to either catch an opponent off-guard or support another ally.

[NeoSeraphi]

Rogues can get improved evasion if they care. The extra HP is one hp per level on average which doesn't really matter all that much. The bonus AC and Parry are the real winners here, as you initially wrote it parry was a 1/round thing which is nearly useless, and even a high AC stops mattering at mid-high levels... so I'm not sure exactly what it is you were trying to fix.


I don't play at mid to high levels. The AC bonus, combined with the improved hit points, was already doubling the duelist's chances of dodging and surviving blows at low to mid levels. That's what I was trying to fix.



Why not? They don't have anatomy so you can't find some way to hit them harder than normal? Even if you gave only half the normal crit damage bonus, or allowed crits but not the bonus dice against those types, you won't suck quite so bad. As it is, if your party runs into a necromancer, you may as well go take up a room at the inn and start drinking for all the good you'll actually contribute. Or run into constructs. Or elementals.

Yeah plants and slimes may not be common enemies. But the things I just listed are. Not to mention most spellcasters have easy access to heavy fortification (via the elemental spells, which are hr/level so require no optimization to have up basically all day every day), and the fortification property is hardly a rare thing.


Yes, but you forget that you're not actually in the world. You don't wander around a world aimlessly and run into any creature you might find. Everything is controlled by the DM. Everything is his decision. If he decides to put the party against a creature that is immune to critical hits, he is trying to test you. Just like if he makes the party fight a flying creature when the fighter doesn't have a ranged weapon or if he takes away the wizard's spellbook.

This may be an issue for a thought experiment, but when it actually sees play, your DM will adjust for you. That's his job, and if he's not doing his job right, you probably aren't having that much fun anyway.



The thing is, the fighter will not being using the same weapon. This is a key problem you are overlooking. You are building a class around a sub-optimal fighting style. The fighter/barbarian will be using a two handed weapon. The rogue will be using two weapons. When comparing average damage to other classes, you have to keep this in mind.

You're looking at 1d8+enhancements+2-3(str)+8-12(int) = average 17 damage a hit. From a level 20 character. Even with his full BAB getting 4 attacks in a round, hitting an average of 3 of them, that's 50 damage in a round.

Compare to your Barbarian with a similar base strength raging and wielding a two handed weapon, dealing 2d6+enhancements+21(str) = average 28 damage a hit. 50% higher before even considering power attacking (which will widen that gap further, as the Barbarian has a higher hit (unless you have both dex and int to hit, which I don't think is the case) rate and better power attack exchange rate).


Did you see the Flourish of Blades ability I added at your behest?



Even if in the end the higher crit stuff from duelist balances out to the same average damage per round, the Barbarian is the straight up winner because his damage doesn't get shut down by half the creatures he's actually likely to face.


He's "likely" to face? Everything that you face is chosen by the DM, who is perfectly aware that you are unable to fight well against creatures immune to critical hits.



So put some conditional on it. Use an opportunity action as a part of an attack to distract your opponent for the attack, adding 1/4th your strike to the heart bonus damage. Now you have the duelist actually doing something to provoke that extra damage, while making it more widely usable.


Distractions don't help. Oozes, plants, and some undead are mindless. They can't be distracted.





I'll tone it down a notch. I just think that a class that loses more than half its damage potential and a good chunk of its class features from something as common as immunity to critical hits is stupid. It's like a Fighter being stuck on the ground shooting arrows at the flying creature because he has no way to fly himself, or any other way to deal with the flying creature. He can do it, but doing so is invalidating his presence in the party completely.


You're right. It's just like that. That's why DMs don't do that very often. I think you're forgetting to take into account that this is a game, run by one person, whose sole purpose is to make the game fun for every one of his players.



Well you apparently also watched duelists who set up traps in the middle of a fight to deal with opponents so :P

Footwork and mobility is a big part of being a duelist, it's what separates them from the fighter with a rapier. They don't use it to go charging 80 ft and full attack like a charging barbarian, they use it tactically, to move into a better position, to either catch an opponent off-guard or support another ally.

I suppose I'll add in an ability that lets them Tumble half their speed as a swift action.

[NeoSeraphi]

Well, rogues do suck because of Sneak Attack limitations, and if I don't do something about it, all the PEACH I'm going to get will be about it, so I guess I'll change it.

I fixed Strike to the Heart to allow for half damage against creatures immune to critical hits.

[Seerow]

Your assumption is that only an ******* DM is going to throw you in situations your character isn't built to handle. Most DMs I know will either run a modified module, or will be building their campaigns at the same time the players are building their characters. If the DM decides the BBEG is a necromancer, or the story involves going to the elemental planes, then these things are going to happen regardless. It's not the DM being an *******.

It is a burden to be placed on the class to actually be useful in a variety of situations. If the class is only useful against half their likely enemies, then there is a serious problem with a class. This was a legitimate complaint lodged against rogues until the swift action "I can sneak attack you anyway" spells came up. It is still a legitimate complaint against this class.




Also I just read the new Flourish of Blades feature, and that looks pretty nice.

If I'm understanding right, this is how it looks at each level:

2)
Standard: +0/+0
Full: +0/+0 (half damage, bonus crit threat for each hit)
6)
Standard: +4/+4
Full: +4/+4/-1 (half damage, bonus crit threat for each hit)
9)
Standard: +7/+2
Full: +9/+9/+9/+4 (half damage, bonus crit threat for each hit)
11)
Standard: +9/+4/-1
Full: +11/+11/+11/+6/+1
16)
Standard: +16/+11/+6/+1
Full: +16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1 (bonus crit threat for each hit)


Assuming I got that right, it looks pretty good. The full attack action is all about forcing a crit, and the standard action full attack lets you get some extra mobility without mattering too much due to your individual hits being so puny. I'm not sure it completely solves the problems, but it is definitely a step in the right direction.


edit: Ninjad by an edit plus another post. Getting half damage against crit immune stuff pretty much fixes the rest. It's still not quite as versatile as I like for a class to be, but it will do decent to strong consistent damage, probably on the strong end of tier 4 to weak end of tier 3, which is fine.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I would be interested in seeing Flourish of Blades inverse your attack order on a full attack: the smaller, less-likely to hit attacks add to the big, reliable blow rather than your reliable attacks making your unlikely-to-hit attacks maybe worthwhile. It also mirrors attempts to create an opening better: your first few attacks aren't meant to hit, but rather to create an opening for your finishing blow.

So instead of +16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1, you're hitting +1/+6/+11/+16/+16/+16.

[Seerow]

I would be interested in seeing Flourish of Blades inverse your attack order on a full attack: the smaller, less-likely to hit attacks add to the big, reliable blow rather than your reliable attacks making your unlikely-to-hit attacks maybe worthwhile. It also mirrors attempts to create an opening better: your first few attacks aren't meant to hit, but rather to create an opening for your finishing blow.

So instead of +16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1, you're hitting +1/+6/+11/+16/+16/+16.

I like this suggestion.

[NeoSeraphi]

Also I just read the new Flourish of Blades feature, and that looks pretty nice.

If I'm understanding right, this is how it looks at each level:

2)
Standard: +0/+0
Full: +0/+0 (half damage, bonus crit threat for each hit)
6)
Standard: +4/+4
Full: +4/+4/-1 (half damage, bonus crit threat for each hit)
9)
Standard: +7/+2
Full: +9/+9/+9/+4 (half damage, bonus crit threat for each hit)
11)
Standard: +9/+4/-1
Full: +11/+11/+11/+6/+1
16)
Standard: +16/+11/+6/+1
Full: +16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1 (bonus crit threat for each hit)


Assuming I got that right, it looks pretty good. The full attack action is all about forcing a crit, and the standard action full attack lets you get some extra mobility without mattering too much due to your individual hits being so puny. I'm not sure it completely solves the problems, but it is definitely a step in the right direction.


You did get that right, yes. As of right now, a typical duelist (using a +5 keen rapier or scimitar) with, let's say, 24 Int and 12 Str, will have this attack routine at level 16:

Standard:

+28/+23/+18/+13 (1d6+13, 14-20/x2 +16d10)

Full:

+28/+28/+28/+23/+18/+13 (1d6+13, 14-20/x2 +16d10, increasing critical threat range)

Of course, assuming about 20 Dexterity and the Weapon Finesse feat, this goes even higher. And if a duelist wants to optimize, she can take Martial Study, Martial Stance, and Shadow Blade to add her Dexterity to her damage rolls.

The full attack routine is powerful, especially when combined with Tactical Repositioning, since it allows her to move a bit as a swift action.



edit: Ninjad by an edit plus another post. Getting half damage against crit immune stuff pretty much fixes the rest. It's still not quite as versatile as I like for a class to be, but it will do decent to strong consistent damage, probably on the strong end of tier 4 to weak end of tier 3, which is fine.

Not as versatile? It has the second best skill point progression with a decent skill list and Int-focus second only to a caster or a factotum. What else do you think it should have?

[Seerow]

Not as versatile? It has the second best skill point progression with a decent skill list and Int-focus second only to a caster or a factotum. What else do you think it should have?


Well you've made it clear the power level you intend, and at this point this class fits it pretty well, and will contribute at all levels.

I prefer base classes with more versatility and flexibility, and tend to think of classes like the Duelist as things that should be prestige classes, because of their more narrow scope. Point is the character can contribute meaningfully. This is good. That pushes him pretty squarely into where you want him.

I'd personally have either another 2-3 abilities keying off attacks of opportunity, or another dozen that the duelist can choose between (getting 3-5 total over time). Because a lot of the time half the fun is having that option that just happens to fit the situation perfectly, or having meaningful decisions to make.

[NeoSeraphi]

Well you've made it clear the power level you intend, and at this point this class fits it pretty well, and will contribute at all levels.

I prefer base classes with more versatility and flexibility, and tend to think of classes like the Duelist as things that should be prestige classes, because of their more narrow scope. Point is the character can contribute meaningfully. This is good. That pushes him pretty squarely into where you want him.

I'd personally have either another 2-3 abilities keying off attacks of opportunity, or another dozen that the duelist can choose between (getting 3-5 total over time). Because a lot of the time half the fun is having that option that just happens to fit the situation perfectly, or having meaningful decisions to make.

Added Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, Hide, and Move Silently to the duelist's class skills.

Added the Clever Knockdown, Battlefield Control, and Lunging Strike class features.

Gave the duelist a bonus AoO feat every 3 levels.

[NeoSeraphi]

I would be interested in seeing Flourish of Blades inverse your attack order on a full attack: the smaller, less-likely to hit attacks add to the big, reliable blow rather than your reliable attacks making your unlikely-to-hit attacks maybe worthwhile. It also mirrors attempts to create an opening better: your first few attacks aren't meant to hit, but rather to create an opening for your finishing blow.

So instead of +16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1, you're hitting +1/+6/+11/+16/+16/+16.

I like this ability, but I'm having a hard time writing it in game terms. If someone could write this up so that it makes sense and is readable, I'd be happy to alter Flourish of Blades to use it.

[Seerow]

Alternatively, as a full-round action, a duelist may take the same penalty to his attack rolls and instead gain an additional attack at his highest attack bonus. If he does this, every attack he makes this round deals half damage, but with each successful attack, the next attack gains a cumulative +1 bonus to its critical threat range. When using Flourish of Blades in this way, attacks with the lowest bonus are made first (as opposed to normally highest bonus attacks are first). For example, a 6th level duelist wielding a rapier takes a -2 penalty to hit and makes 3 attacks with the attack routine -1/+4/+4. He hits with the first two, and deals half damage each time. On the third strike, he rolls a 16, which is treated as a critical threat because he hit with the first two and increased the weapon's threat range each time.







Also, I like the new features. Out of curiosity, what feats are out there that have Combat Reflexes as a prerequisite? There's non in core, and I can't think of any offhand. Seems like it may be worthwhile to make an acceptable list of feats.

[NeoSeraphi]

Alternatively, as a full-round action, a duelist may take the same penalty to his attack rolls and instead gain an additional attack at his highest attack bonus. If he does this, every attack he makes this round deals half damage, but with each successful attack, the next attack gains a cumulative +1 bonus to its critical threat range. When using Flourish of Blades in this way, attacks with the lowest bonus are made first (as opposed to normally highest bonus attacks are first). For example, a 6th level duelist wielding a rapier takes a -2 penalty to hit and makes 3 attacks with the attack routine -1/+4/+4. He hits with the first two, and deals half damage each time. On the third strike, he rolls a 16, which is treated as a critical threat because he hit with the first two and increased the weapon's threat range each time.


Thank you, added.



Also, I like the new features. Out of curiosity, what feats are out there that have Combat Reflexes as a prerequisite? There's non in core, and I can't think of any offhand. Seems like it may be worthwhile to make an acceptable list of feats.

Quite a few more than you'd think, I bet. I added a list to the OP, throwing in the Combat Expertise line as well, and Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack, as they seemed appropriate.

[Yitzi]

We're talking about a large chunk of creatures straight from the monster manual, not to mention a common gear that may come up at high levels, completely shutting down the primary feature of the class

It's a sizable chunk of MM creatures, but not so many that it'll make the duelist useless in general (he might be near-useless in certain encounters, but there are also going to be encounters where he's the only character who's not near-useless; in fact, looking at his skill list, the ones where he's the only useful character will likely outnumber those where he's near-useless.)

[NeoSeraphi]

Added a powerful capstone to the ability, and the class is all finished! What does everyone think?

[Kenneth]

ok.. what I am getting fromt his class is


rogue on crack and steroids


you basically just gave the rouge a better sneak attack that applies to everything, better hit die and other stats to randoms things?


thats good i guess if your gorup tends to have death proen rogues..


though that makes no sense to me at all.. i can only think of 3 times in all my decades of D&D where teh rogue died and it was not due to player stupidyt (like. oh that mountina is rumored to have a dragon in it.. well I take the short cut through there) or a total party death.,.

I think the bigger problem is not the class itself but how its played.. people see the rogue and think its supposed to be a front line fifhter type.. not s sneaky flanker/skirmisher.

or maybe its just been the groups ive played thats been doing it wrong this entire time :(

[Seerow]

you basically just gave the rouge a better sneak attack that applies to everything, better hit die and other stats to randoms things?


Sneak attack applies to every attack. This ability only applies on crits. Even with the bonus crit abilities this class has, 1-2 crits a round at high levels is a generous estimate. 1-2 crits an encounter at low levels is more the norm.

Compare that to the rogue getting sneak attack on basically every attack he ever makes, because what rogue isn't going to have some way to constantly get his sneak attack off?

The class is stronger than the rogue in other ways (not needing to rely on the ____strike wands, getting benefit from int so likely to have more skill points, and better action economy usage, better defenses), but sneak attack is still going to be the superior damage booster overall.


Edit: As for the capstone, I think that may actually be too strong. It's like a unlimited use Celerity, without the Daze drawback. This feature pretty much crosses that line between "Action economy needed to function" into "Broken Action economy". Make it grant only a standard or move action, and some penalty for the next turn (maybe staggered. That way you are splitting up your action, you get one action immediately, and one on your next turn). You can then drop the AoO cost down to 3.

[NeoSeraphi]

Edit: As for the capstone, I think that may actually be too strong. It's like a unlimited use Celerity, without the Daze drawback. This feature pretty much crosses that line between "Action economy needed to function" into "Broken Action economy". Make it grant only a standard or move action, and some penalty for the next turn (maybe staggered. That way you are splitting up your action, you get one action immediately, and one on your next turn). You can then drop the AoO cost down to 3.

Yeah, but celerity has been around since 7th level, while this ability comes into play at level 20. You're only going to have it for one level before you start getting into epic, so it's essentially an epic-level ability.

Edit: I agree that it needs to be nerfed, but I don't know how to do that while keeping it better than celerity (which I want to do. I need to find the middle ground)

[Seerow]

Yeah, but celerity has been around since 7th level, while this ability comes into play at level 20. You're only going to have it for one level before you start getting into epic, so it's essentially an epic-level ability.

Well the ability you currently have up is Greater Celerity, which is 15th level, which is still relevant. You also removed the drawback of the spell, and it has unlimited daily use.

I could see an immediate action movement with no penalty being fine. I could even see a standard action at a stretch (though as mentioned I'd be more comfortable with at least some penalty attached, especially since you can full attack as a standard action), but a full round action as an immediate action every turn is over the top.

If you really like it you can keep it in there, as you point out it only comes in at 20th level and you say you generally play at lower level anyway, but you're also the one who was worried about action economy abuse not so long ago, I'm just pointing out that this one ability does cross the line from action economy usage to action economy breakage.

[NeoSeraphi]

Well the ability you currently have up is Greater Celerity, which is 15th level, which is still relevant. You also removed the drawback of the spell, and it has unlimited daily use.

I could see an immediate action movement with no penalty being fine. I could even see a standard action at a stretch (though as mentioned I'd be more comfortable with at least some penalty attached, especially since you can full attack as a standard action), but a full round action as an immediate action every turn is over the top.

If you really like it you can keep it in there, as you point out it only comes in at 20th level and you say you generally play at lower level anyway, but you're also the one who was worried about action economy abuse not so long ago, I'm just pointing out that this one ability does cross the line from action economy usage to action economy breakage.

I'm sorry, I hit the post button prematurely, but I left behind a rather important edit that I don't think you saw.

I understand that my ability is too much, and I want to weaken it, but not to the point that it's just celerity with no dazing. I want it to be better than celerity but worse than it is currently, just to help the duelist keep up (however tiny the boon may be) with the rocket tag that goes on at 20th and beyond.

[Wavelab]

Well I'm starting to become a fan of Seraphi homebrew, especially your Sharpshooter and now the Duelist, so I'll contribute.

For the Uncanny Speed ability, a possible drawback is making it use up 5 AoO's from your next turn as well?

Another thing might be that you can't tumble or something with the move actions?

[NeoSeraphi]

Well I'm starting to become a fan of Seraphi homebrew, especially your Sharpshooter and now the Duelist, so I'll contribute.

Seraphi Homebrew (TM). For when Core mechanics just make you want to kick puppies. Now available in your local Extended Homebrew signatures.




For the Uncanny Speed ability, a possible drawback is making it use up 5 AoO's from your next turn as well?

Another thing might be that you can't tumble or something with the move actions?

That's uh...that's a pretty harsh limitation. But I guess it would make it less at-will and more "Once every other round, depending on how high you optimize"

[Wavelab]

Seraphi Homebrew (TM). For when Core mechanics just make you want to kick puppies. Now available in your local Extended Homebrew signatures.


If I were you I would sig that.




That's uh...that's a pretty harsh limitation. But I guess it would make it less at-will and more "Once every other round, depending on how high you optimize"

The second one isn't that good, but the first one isn't such a bad limit. I don't think you'll have too many AoO's in a round. A duelist already has 1 + Dex Mod + Int Mod in AoO's so he can waste them.

[Yitzi]

Edit: I agree that it needs to be nerfed, but I don't know how to do that while keeping it better than celerity (which I want to do. I need to find the middle ground)

Say that once it's used, it cannot be used again for 10 minutes. That essentially makes it a 1/encounter ability rather than an at-will one.

If that's too weak, allow him to spend it at no cost (other than the AoOs) once every 10 minutes, and like the Celerity packages (i.e. being dazed the following round) once per round.

[NeoSeraphi]

Checking to see if anyone else has anything to say about this particular piece.

[kardar233]

I think this is really awesome, and hope to use it in a future game. Can't speak to the game balance side, but it looks interesting to play.

As a duelist is a technique-focused type, I think adding a little bit of support for disarming would be cool.

Does Clever Knockdown ignore the opponent's size bonus to their Trip roll?

I'd also like to throw in some swordfighting terminology that fit with the abilities:

Flourish of Blades -> Stramazzone
Improved Parry -> Riposte
Battlefield Control (range increase) -> Passado
Lunging Strike -> Primo Tempo

[NeoSeraphi]

I think this is really awesome, and hope to use it in a future game. Can't speak to the game balance side, but it looks interesting to play.

As a duelist is a technique-focused type, I think adding a little bit of support for disarming would be cool.

I guess I can try and do that.




Does Clever Knockdown ignore the opponent's size bonus to their Trip roll?


No, it just ignores the creature's automatic immunity to being Tripped by a creature 2 size categories smaller than it.



I'd also like to throw in some swordfighting terminology that fit with the abilities:

Flourish of Blades -> Stramazzone
Improved Parry -> Riposte
Battlefield Control (range increase) -> Passado
Lunging Strike -> Primo Tempo

Sure, I can change all of those

[NeoSeraphi]

Okay, I added a special Disarm maneuver to Deceptive Motions, and changed the names of the abilities.

[NeoSeraphi]

Levels 17 and 19 were looking too light. I added Dancing Step and Backstab to liven them up a bit.

[Yitzi]

I want it to be better than celerity but worse than it is currently, just to help the duelist keep up (however tiny the boon may be) with the rocket tag that goes on at 20th and beyond.

I think you might be going at it wrong...the whole idea of a duelist is that it's a someone more drawn-out combat with a lot of parries and counter-moves and so on. Rather than helping him keep up with that rocket tag, why not help him beat it? Give him the ability to match his opponent's action economy (whether that's one set of actions per round or 100) via something like "if an opponent uses an ability to get an extra action, the duelist gets the same benefit right after the opponent's action", give him a flat cap on damage taken per hit above base weapon damage and STR damage, and give him extremely strong resistance (something like "always gets a save, and a natural 6 or higher is an auto-success") against save-or-lose effects.

Remember, the duelist is, by the name, designed to fight other PC-class enemies of comparable level. That means he'll focus on not only matching them but beating them (and in particular beating the most optimized ones) at the cost of being weak against monsters and hordes of lower-level enemies.

[NeoSeraphi]

I think you might be going at it wrong...the whole idea of a duelist is that it's a someone more drawn-out combat with a lot of parries and counter-moves and so on. Rather than helping him keep up with that rocket tag, why not help him beat it? Give him the ability to match his opponent's action economy (whether that's one set of actions per round or 100) via something like "if an opponent uses an ability to get an extra action, the duelist gets the same benefit right after the opponent's action", give him a flat cap on damage taken per hit above base weapon damage and STR damage, and give him extremely strong resistance (something like "always gets a save, and a natural 6 or higher is an auto-success") against save-or-lose effects.

Remember, the duelist is, by the name, designed to fight other PC-class enemies of comparable level. That means he'll focus on not only matching them but beating them (and in particular beating the most optimized ones) at the cost of being weak against monsters and hordes of lower-level enemies.

I've actually got a PvP class in the works already (due to my awesome new avatar), so I'll save these suggestions for that class. Thanks, Yitzi.

[Yitzi]

You're welcome.
Do consider giving your PvP class a weak offense, though, if you don't want him to be too game-breaking. I think the goal to go for might be "can only be beat by what would normally be considered unoptimized builds."