Who's Going to Destroy Girard's Gate?

[jidasfire]

Seeing as we're rounding the bend to the final leg of this arc, it seems inevitable that Girard's Gate will be destroyed. So the question is, who's going to destroy it? A few options seem possible.

Nale: While Nale is hunting the Gates, it's unclear as to exactly what he wants to do with them. Seeing as he's not epic, isn't a caster (or at least not much of one), and doesn't know the secret Snarl control rituals, it's hard to imagine what he could do with them. It seems likely that once Nale realizes he can't use the Gate, he may attempt to destroy it out of pettiness (i.e. "If I can't have it, no one can!")

Sabine: It's been made clear that Sabine has some special mission as given to her by her masters, and it seems likely (or at least possible) that their plans for the Gates involve their destruction. Hence, Sabine could be called upon to clandestinely ensure the Gate's destruction in furtherance of the IFCC's plans.

Vaarsuvius: We know that the IFCC are going to gain control of V for the better part of an hour. Perhaps, assuming their primary minions fail to accomplish their goal of destroying the Gate, they might call upon their sleeper agent, whom the Order would never suspect of treachery.

Tarquin: Tarquin clearly knows something about Girard, and while it's not clear exactly what, if he has knowledge of the Gate, he too may be trying to harness its power. That said, he could simply see its power as a threat to his perfectly ordered empire, and decide that once it's clear how to do it, he needs to destroy it before someone else uses it against him.

Those are my theories. Anyone else have others?

[Gift Jeraff]

Nale is at least an 8th level sorcerer. I believe Redcloak was only a 9th or 10th level cleric when he tried to conquer Lirian's Gate, so Nale could be powerful enough for the ritual. Though that doesn't answer how he would gain the ritual in the first place.

However, I am betting on Nale intentionally destroying it, either out of pettiness or because he sees Xykon is winning and he'd rather get a second shot at Kraagor's Gate than risk Xykon taking over the world (which also fits the IFCC's desire to see neither the OOTS nor Xykon succeed).

I could also see Xykon destroying it in a fit of rage after learning the truth about the ritual or seeing that there is no Snarl on the other side (if you can see the other side through the Gate), though I have trouble seeing what he would do afterward.

[Peelee]

I highly, HIGHLY doubt Girard himself would destroy it, but with his paranoia about Soon/anyone not in his party of trustables, and Ian Starshine's paranoia in general and the theory they might know each other, Ian might convince him to do so, or Ian himself may

[DaveMcW]

Directly destroying a gate directly tends to be fatal. Who do we know is going to die?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Nale is at least an 8th level sorcerer. I believe Redcloak was only a 9th or 10th level cleric when he tried to conquer Lirian's Gate, so Nale could be powerful enough for the ritual.
Right. The gate-controlling ritual only requires high level spellcasters. It is actually creating a gate that requires epic spellcasting.


Though that doesn't answer how he would gain the ritual in the first place.
Yeah. For a guy that’s into complex plans, he doesn’t have much foresight.

[jidasfire]

I highly, HIGHLY doubt Girard himself would destroy it, but with his paranoia about Soon/anyone not in his party of trustables, and Ian Starshine's paranoia in general and the theory they might know each other, Ian might convince him to do so, or Ian himself may

Not a bad point. We have still yet to meet Girard's agents, who must be lurking somewhere about, as they've been heavily foreshadowed but still not met. One of them could certainly pull a Miko and destroy the Gate.

[jidasfire]

Directly destroying a gate directly tends to be fatal. Who do we know is going to die?

Not necessarily. Miko died, sure. But Redcloak survived destroying Lirian's Gate, and Elan survived destroying Durokan's Gate, so it all really depends on how it's destroyed.

[Dr.Epic]

Too early to tell. Dorukan's Gate was destroyed by idiocy. We can't be sure something like that won't do the same.

[GSFB]

:mitd: "Gate? What Gate? Hey, what's that cracking sound?"

[Boogastreehouse]

...We have still yet to meet Girard's agents...

Are you sure about that?

[rbetieh]

ok how about this for a mind-warp. Girard was charged with protecting a gate right? And he knows his buddies are all going to protect theirs right? And he knows that the destruction of a single gate wont put anyone in danger right? So he blew up his own gate 60 years ago, and is covering up the hole with an illusion. Problem solved. In the most chaotic manner possible.

[zimmerwald1915]

ok how about this for a mind-warp. Girard was charged with protecting a gate right? And he knows his buddies are all going to protect theirs right? And he knows that the destruction of a single gate wont put anyone in danger right? So he blew up his own gate 60 years ago, and is covering up the hole with an illusion. Problem solved. In the most chaotic manner possible.
This is a fairly cool theory, but it requires the Oracle to be either wrong or lying. His prophecy to Roy states that Xykon will be in the vicinity of "Girard's Gate", not "Girard's Rift", before he is in the vicinity of Kraagor's Gate.

[jidasfire]

Are you sure about that?

I suppose not, but at the very least, we don't know that we've met any of Girard's agents, or who they might be. That's as good as having not met them for the moment.

[Emanick]

This is a fairly cool theory, but it requires the Oracle to be either wrong or lying. His prophecy to Roy states that Xykon will be in the vicinity of "Girard's Gate", not "Girard's Rift", before he is in the vicinity of Kraagor's Gate.

It's possible that Xykon was simply near the Gate decades ago without even knowing it.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

It's possible that Xykon was simply near the Gate decades ago without even knowing it.
Nope. One reason. Roy’s Question:

If the lich sorcerer commonly referred to as “Xykon” will ever be, at some future point in time, within at 1000-foot-radius of one of these two magical gates, of which of those locations will he be in said radius first, chronologically?

Emphasis mine.

[ref]

Shouldn't this thread be spoilered?

I'm going to call Sabine here
Lirian's Gate -- Redcloak -- Team Evil
Dorukan's Gate -- Elan -- Team OotS
Soon's Gate -- Miko -- Team Azure City
Girard's Gate -- ??? -- Team Linear Guild?
Serini/Kraagor's Gate -- Not Destroyed?

[Peelee]

Shouldn't this thread be spoilered?

I'm going to call Sabine here
Lirian's Gate -- Redcloak -- Team Evil
Dorukan's Gate -- Elan -- Team OotS
Soon's Gate -- Miko -- Team Azure City
Girard's Gate -- ??? -- Team Linear Guild?
Serini/Kraagor's Gate -- Not Destroyed?

Why? Unless Rich himself comes in here and says what will happen, it's not like anything here actually CONTAINS spoilers. This is all pure speculation and conjecture.

[ThePhantasm]

Shouldn't this thread be spoilered?


Noooooope. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9535659&postcount=4) :smallwink:

[Kish]

This is a fairly cool theory, but it requires the Oracle to be either wrong or lying.
It would also require Girard either not to care about the destruction of the world, or to have faith in one of his companions to protect his/her Gate. And the reason for the split in the Order of the Scribble was that each of them was convinced only his/her method could successfully protect a Gate.

[rbetieh]

Nope. One reason. Roy’s Question:

If the lich sorcerer commonly referred to as “Xykon” will ever be, at some future point in time, within at 1000-foot-radius of one of these two magical gates, of which of those locations will he be in said radius first, chronologically?

Emphasis mine.

An illusory magical gate is also a magical gate. So could the self-opening gate that leads to Girards mansion. :smallbiggrin: The oracle only needs a little bit of wiggle room to come up with accurate but useless information.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

An illusory magical gate is also a magical gate. So could the self-opening gate that leads to Girards mansion. :smallbiggrin: The oracle only needs a little bit of wiggle room to come up with accurate but useless information.
Yeah, because the Oracle was totally looking for wiggle room when he asked Roy to rephrase the question. :smallsigh:

[ThePhantasm]

Please no more crazy theories about the Oracle's prophecies... they cause me pain...

The Belkar ones are bad enough.

[Gift Jeraff]

Shouldn't this thread be spoilered?

I'm going to call Sabine here
Lirian's Gate -- Redcloak -- Team Evil
Dorukan's Gate -- Elan -- Team OotS
Soon's Gate -- Miko -- Team Azure City
Girard's Gate -- ??? -- Team Linear Guild?
Serini/Kraagor's Gate -- Not Destroyed?I suspect:
Girard's -- Linear Guild (either Nale or a mook of Nale's (such as Thog) commanded to do so, possibly after Sabine suggests it to Nale)
Kraagor's -- The IFCC through V (I think all the Gates will be destroyed and this time the rift problem will be permanently solved)

It's also worth noting that all 3 Gates have been indirectly destroyed by their respective Scribbler in some way:

Lirian's -- The two treants may have done it intentionally; Lirian doesn't act shocked when she hears the explosion, so she may have told them to do so under desperate circumstances
Dorukan's -- Self-destruct mechanism set up by Dorukan
Soon -- Two paladins of Soon made the decision to destroy his Gate; a former paladin of Soon ultimately did the act, inspired by O-Chul's position

Just a coincidence?

[Dakaran]

I'm leaning towards Durkon destroying the gate and dying as a result. I'm of the belief that Durkon will be killed during the turn of events revolving around Girard's Gate. I've been trying to theorize how he would actually die and self-sacrifice to prevent Xykon from claiming the gate sounds up Durkon's alley and pretty epic to boot. Maybe it would earn him a special place up in the clouds with Thor until the Order resurrects him. Think of all the comedy potential with Durkon and Thor together. :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

I'm leaning towards Durkon destroying the gate and dying as a result. I'm of the belief that Durkon will be killed during the turn of events revolving around Girard's Gate. I've been trying to theorize how he would actually die and self-sacrifice to prevent Xykon from claiming the gate sounds up Durkon's alley and pretty epic to boot. Maybe it would earn him a special place up in the clouds with Thor until the Order resurrects him. Think of all the comedy potential with Durkon and Thor together. :smallbiggrin:

I kinda doubt that would happen. Who would res Durkon? That scenario kinda gets rid of the walking box of band-aids in the party. If Durkon dies, there are only really two possibilities: either the party has to travel with his body for a while until they find someone who can res him, which has already been done with Roy and would just seem like a repeat, or someone (like Malack, for instance) would res him instantly, making his death completely extraneous and pointless - why have him die if he comes back to life ten minutes later? Wouldn't it just be easier to have him just live, and not waste a filler strip rezzing him?

I think if someone in the party dies from hereon, they will not be coming back (such as Belkar's prophecy states). Secondary and tertiary characters could still be brought back if they die, though. Probably. Maybe.

[Dakaran]

I kinda doubt that would happen. Who would res Durkon? That scenario kinda gets rid of the walking box of band-aids in the party. If Durkon dies, there are only really two possibilities: either the party has to travel with his body for a while until they find someone who can res him, which has already been done with Roy and would just seem like a repeat, or someone (like Malack, for instance) would res him instantly, making his death completely extraneous and pointless - why have him die if he comes back to life ten minutes later? Wouldn't it just be easier to have him just live, and not waste a filler strip rezzing him?

I think if someone in the party dies from hereon, they will not be coming back (such as Belkar's prophecy states). Secondary and tertiary characters could still be brought back if they die, though. Probably. Maybe.

We all know that Durkon will enter his homelands posthumously. I'm in the camp that believes that Girard's Gate will be destroyed AND Durkon will die before events with the next gate truly unfold. Through deduction it's commonly believed that the last gate is in dwarven lands so the Order, after in my current theory, want to res Durkon for his heroics and need to get to the last gate. Thus they bring Durkon with them on their quest to the last gate, in dwarven lands, and presumably find a cleric of Durkon's order to res him. Anyway, in an attempt for me not to derail this thread I'll just point you in the direction of a thread I posted a few months ago on this topic that you can take a look at: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205521.

[Gilphon]

Personally, I'm betting Belkar will destroy the Gate, and die in the process.

Kind if similar to Dakaran's scenario, my theory. Just have it in my head as a kind of 'final redemption' for Belkar, sort of thing.

[Bulldog Psion]

Perhaps Durkon and Belkar will work together to destroy the Gate; both die, Belkar permanently and Durkon until he can be resurrected.

[Ashadar]

I think Durkon entering his homelands posthumously and then being ressurected is extremely likely and would fit the last story arc perfectly as well as the Oracle's prophecy.

That said, I highly doubt the destruction of this gate will be anything premeditated as none of the previous gate destructions were. All of the previous gates were destroyed through an accident, right after one of the sides won. First Xykon and Redcloak won, then the OOTS won, and then Soon won. So I'm voting for accident. I'm also voting for one of the sides actually winning the conflict before this happens. Maybe Tarquin.

[ref]

Noooooope. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9535659&postcount=4) :smallwink:

I stand corrected. Good to know. :)

[Dr.Epic]

An illusory magical gate is also a magical gate. So could the self-opening gate that leads to Girards mansion. :smallbiggrin: The oracle only needs a little bit of wiggle room to come up with accurate but useless information.

Illusory magical gate? What are you talking about?

[rbetieh]

Illusory magical gate? What are you talking about?

Only that Girard could have blown up the gate himself years ago, and covered it up with an illusion of a gate, which is what the Oracle would have seen. We know he likes to make smarty-pants, unhelpfull prophecies, so saying he was going to girards "gate" would fit. Personally, I dont know why they didnt just ask the Oracle which gate Xykon would visit last, and assume he would fail at all the other gates....

[Peelee]

Only that Girard could have blown up the gate himself years ago, and covered it up with an illusion of a gate, which is what the Oracle would have seen. We know he likes to make smarty-pants, unhelpfull prophecies, so saying he was going to girards "gate" would fit. Personally, I dont know why they didnt just ask the Oracle which gate Xykon would visit last, and assume he would fail at all the other gates....


I don't know why people keep thinking that of the Oracle. So far as I can recall, he's only made smarty-pants, unhelpful prophecies when it was a joke (like saying Xykon was "in his thrown room," to Roy... who then held the Oracle out a window for a better answer). All others he's given - that Durkon will return posthumously, that Belkar will die, that Belkar will kill one of the people he listed, how Haley will get her voice back, etc - have been pretty straightfoward

[Dr.Epic]

Only that Girard could have blown up the gate himself years ago, and covered it up with an illusion of a gate, which is what the Oracle would have seen. We know he likes to make smarty-pants, unhelpfull prophecies, so saying he was going to girards "gate" would fit. Personally, I dont know why they didnt just ask the Oracle which gate Xykon would visit last, and assume he would fail at all the other gates....

He blew up the Gate? What? How? I think he'd be more careful about it? That, and wouldn't the scrying device around each Gate notify the others of this?

[rbetieh]

He blew up the Gate? What? How? I think he'd be more careful about it? That, and wouldn't the scrying device around each Gate notify the others of this?

If it happened 60 years ago, he had ample time to explain it away...but I guess it would be a stretch based on the recorded message the order found. Or he could have tricked Soon into believing it was a false alarm somehow...This is kind of the thinking behind it.

[Jay R]

If Durkon dies, there are only really two possibilities: either the party has to travel with his body for a while until they find someone who can res him, which has already been done with Roy and would just seem like a repeat, or someone (like Malack, for instance) would res him instantly, making his death completely extraneous and pointless - why have him die if he comes back to life ten minutes later? Wouldn't it just be easier to have him just live, and not waste a filler strip rezzing him?

There are always more than two possibilities:

1. Durkon dies, and is drinking beer with Thor when somebody attempts Resurrection, so he is unwilling to return.
2. Durkon believes that his new mission is to explain about Xykon's plan to the gods, so is unwilling to return.
3. He dies as Girard's Gate is destroyed, and the Order has to go to the dwarven land to find Kraagor's Gate. They are about to resurrect Durkon, when Roy remembers the prophecy and realizes that Durkon has to return to those lands posthumously, and concludes that resurrecting him now means he must die again, so they bring his body back posthumously, then resurrect him. (Of course, those who have read The Origin of the PCs have already taken this to its logical conclusion.)


Personally, I dont know why they didnt just ask the Oracle which gate Xykon would visit last, and assume he would fail at all the other gates....

Because Xykon might visit one gate, complete his plans, become all-powerful, conquer the world, destroy all good or lawful people in the world, and then visit another gate for some reason.

[Incom]

ok how about this for a mind-warp. Girard was charged with protecting a gate right? And he knows his buddies are all going to protect theirs right? And he knows that the destruction of a single gate wont put anyone in danger right? So he blew up his own gate 60 years ago, and is covering up the hole with an illusion. Problem solved. In the most chaotic manner possible.


This is a fairly cool theory, but it requires the Oracle to be either wrong or lying. His prophecy to Roy states that Xykon will be in the vicinity of "Girard's Gate", not "Girard's Rift", before he is in the vicinity of Kraagor's Gate.

Epic illusionist is sufficiently epic to fool a non-epic oracle?

[zimmerwald1915]

Epic illusionist is sufficiently epic to fool a non-epic oracle?
Possibly. But the Oracle was in his trance at the time. Epic illusionists can fool gods, but it's a much less sure proposition than fooling indeterminate-level Experts.

[Anarion]

Regarding Belkar, Roy says here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) that Belkar has less than seven weeks left. Since then they
a) took a boat to the western continent (indeterminate time)
b) spent a day in Sandsedge
c) traveled by purple worm to Girard's gate fake location (about a day)
d) spent a day and a night searching
e) went to Empire of Blood, where have spent less than a week (unless off screen search time was longer)

So Belkar still has 5-6 weeks unless the boat journey was extremely long, which is unlikely considering that the continent was visible as the boat heads into the sunset. That's plenty of time for him to make it to Kraagor's gate.

[denthor]

Caution Start of darkness spoiler.

The high priest of Odin came to the high priest of Thor and stated "Upon the return of Durkon thundershield. Doom would come.

Later a dwarf that played poker with the high priest of Thor says "I know when you are bluffin'. High priest says the above and the brew master states "you daft fool you sent him on a trip"

High priest "The lad is so lawful he will stay away until he is called back home so if he never returns doom can not come to us"

Please note the ku fu chicks letter. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html)

I have very little time at the moment if some else wants to fill in the blanks please feel free. Plus do not have the start of darkness at this location.:smallredface:

[Gift Jeraff]

Regarding Belkar, Roy says here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) that Belkar has less than seven weeks left. Since then they
a) took a boat to the western continent (indeterminate time)
b) spent a day in Sandsedge
c) traveled by purple worm to Girard's gate fake location (about a day)
d) spent a day and a night searching
e) went to Empire of Blood, where have spent less than a week (unless off screen search time was longer)

So Belkar still has 5-6 weeks unless the boat journey was extremely long, which is unlikely considering that the continent was visible as the boat heads into the sunset. That's plenty of time for him to make it to Kraagor's gate.a) It took a day to travel to Sandsedge (Blackwing says V was home 2 days ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0678.html), SSaDT shows nighttime on the boat).
b) It was probably less than a day at Sandsedge
c & d) They spent a week in the desert (The Giant's post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8569129&postcount=19), Redcloak says the 1-year anniversary of the Battle of Azure City is in 6 weeks)
e) They spent a week searching the various cities (The Giant's post, Nale's comment here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0801.html)); 2 full days have passed in the EoB, and it is around noon of the third day (Tarquin's comment here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0753.html))

So by my count, Belkar has about 4 and a half weeks, and of course he can die at any moment now and the prophecy would still hold true.

[veti]

I don't know why people keep thinking that of the Oracle. So far as I can recall, he's only made smarty-pants, unhelpful prophecies when it was a joke (like saying Xykon was "in his thrown room," to Roy... who then held the Oracle out a window for a better answer). All others he's given - that Durkon will return posthumously, that Belkar will die, that Belkar will kill one of the people he listed, how Haley will get her voice back, etc - have been pretty straightfoward

Well, "the right four words" and the "gift horse" were accurate, but not exactly helpful or unambiguous. As for Durkon's prophecy - it hasn't been fulfilled yet, so we've no way of knowing how straightforward or deceptive it may have been.

And the Oracle himself encouraged the creative interpretation of his prophecies, when he tried to persuade Belkar not to kill him. All in all, "smarty-pants, unhelpful prophecies" seems a pretty fair description to me.

[VanBuren]

Well, "the right four words" and the "gift horse" were accurate, but not exactly helpful or unambiguous. As for Durkon's prophecy - it hasn't been fulfilled yet, so we've no way of knowing how straightforward or deceptive it may have been.

And the Oracle himself encouraged the creative interpretation of his prophecies, when he tried to persuade Belkar not to kill him. All in all, "smarty-pants, unhelpful prophecies" seems a pretty fair description to me.

Although it seems like he was prepared to give a straightforward answer to Roy's question, which is why he asked him if he wanted to rephrase it. The Oracle enjoys many things, but breaking the plot sequence is not one of them.

[The Pilgrim]

Let's see...

- The First Gate was destroyed by a member of Team Evil
- The Second Gate was destroyed by a member of the OOTS
- The Third Gate was destroyed by a member of the organization in charge of protecting it

Hence, the fourth gate will not be destroyed by a member of Team Evil, by a member of the OOTS, neither by Giriard or it's organization, as that would make the plot repetitive.

So, either Tarquin, the Linear Guild, the IFCC (via V or otherwise), or an intervention from the Gods themselves, are the best horses to bet on.