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RebelRogue
2011-11-17, 07:15 PM
So, in my IRL campaign (D&D 4e, paragon level if it matters to anyone), the players are now exploring an Underdark themed dungeon, and they're getting closer to the end/bottom of it - they're basically taking a gem containing the soul of an old friend as well as a dracolich there, though they don't really know why. But all of that is not terribly important here.

The thing is, for a long time, I've been thinking, that at the climax, hordes of githyanki (and allied red dragons) pierce the walls of the dungeon (which is essentially embedded in a giant ectoplasm tube suspended in the Astral Sea/Astral Plane) to steal the gem containing the souls and bring it back to Tu'narath. There's a reason for all of this, but again, that's not really the focus point here.

My question is: How do I set up this, so that stealing the gem doesn't seem like blatant DM railroading? I guess I want to give them a small chance of succeeding, but I also know that doing so would cut this story arc pretty short, so I'd rather avoid it. Any advice or suggestions for dealing with this kind of situation? I surely can't be the first DM to encounter such a problem.

Bonus info: The PC holding the gem is an evil warlock, while the rest of the characters are members of divine classes dedicated to the same (unaligned/goodish) deity, so I guess I might be able to turn the party against each other. But again, I don't want to force anything too heavily.

Nigel the Hobo
2011-11-17, 09:18 PM
Through an encounter at them that is above their CR. With adequate preperation and good rolls, adventurers can win encounters that are several levels above them. This benefits multiple ways:


They have a chance of success
They get a decent expeirience bonus if they do succed
I myself enjoy challenges like this
It isn't complete railroading per se


Give them a sort of warning if you want, or just have it be unexpected. But I'd make it the first and possible only encounter of the day and hint that they should use their daily's and action points.

If they lose, just say that they were all killed with non-lethal blows and had the soul container stolen. I'm sure there is some Big Bad that would want to defeat them himself which would provide a reason for them not to be killed.

Winds
2011-11-17, 10:41 PM
Have the high-power encounter bring a diplomat who 'hints' that the players should surrender.

Another example I had with a similarly dangerous situation was to have spellcasters that specialize in crowd control skills. This was 3.5, so we got attacked at night. The sentries failed their save on a sleep spell, everyone wakes up tied up with no equipment. (We got it back, but it was more jailbreak than 'I need you to lose something.)

Glyde
2011-11-17, 10:53 PM
Rather than think about how to make it not seem railroady, have a contingency plan in case they escape with the gem. They could be hunted, the soul gem could be a fake, the soul gem could be manipulated by a third party, it could break... There are a whole slew of things to do with the situation that you can build on, rather than only have one possible outcome. Sure, we all want the outcome we worked hardest on to be the one that happens, but that isn't always the case.

It's good when players surprise us - Encourage it, and their thinking that lets them succeed.

Anxe
2011-11-17, 11:53 PM
I'd throw something at them from their character backgrounds. The PCs father who he thought was dead shows up. Or its an old rival NPC allied with the Githyanki. Anyway they can feel emotionally involved will prevent them from realizing that you just stole their gem without explaining why.

Also, Retrieve Power is awesome for this sort of thing. The players are fighting off the Gith and the red dragons. Then the Rival NPC shows up as his forces are losing. He smiles and manifests his retrieve power. Then he says, "The gem is mine." He then backs out of the cavern back into the Astral Plane and lets a quick Astral Current whisk him away from the combat. The players can't pursue him because the dragons and the githyanki are still there fighting. Or they can, but they're wounded and he beats them up. If he beats them up, then he spares them because one of them is his son (But it's the last time he'll ever show pity on such a weakling child).

Okizruin
2011-11-18, 12:21 AM
Plain and simple: arrange things with the players, explain the situation. If they're decent enough, they'll play along.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-11-18, 12:35 AM
Plain and simple: arrange things with the players, explain the situation. If they're decent enough, they'll play along.
No... that's about the worst thing you can do this late in a campaign. It can turn the campaign from "this is fun, guys!" to "oh... it's a cinematic and our decisions don't matter" in zero seconds.

I think if you need this to happen, you need to arrange things carefully.

(1) Make sure the Gem is out of the PCs' control by their own choice
This is important because nabbing an item from the inventory of a PC is chancy at best without DM fiat -- particularly in 4e. The classic way is to require this gem to be placed on a pedestal to unlock some MacGuffin.

(2) Make sure that the PCs won't snatch & run with the Gem at the first sign of trouble
This makes it more likely that your baddies will have the time to grab the Gem. Perhaps make it so that once the Gem is placed in the pedestal, it will suck the soul of the next person to grab it before the MacGuffin is unlocked. This will make PCs wary of taking it.

(3) Make sure that the baddies cheat
The baddies have to be so powerful that the PCs won't be able to crush them even if the baddies aren't devoting their attention to fighting the PCs. The easiest way is to over-level the baddies, but giving them things like At-Will teleportation or attack-nullifying effects (e.g. the Halfling Racial Power) will also do. In this hypothetical, giving the Pirate Captain a gem with a soul trapped in it to feed the Soul Gem's hunger is a fine cheat.

As you've noted, this will be hard to pull off correctly. I've only done it once, and it only worked because my Players have sufficient faith in me that they didn't complain about a (slightly) haxed fight. IMHO, this advice should get you where you need to be but it requires a bit more planning on your part than simply setting up an Encounter I'm afraid.

EDIT: Also, as a general rule of DMing -- never write an adventure where a certain thing must happen in order for the story to continue. This is doubly true if that thing requires the PCs to fail.

Treblain
2011-11-18, 12:56 AM
How about this:

They have to place the gem on a special altar in order to fulfill their goal, open a lock, cast a spell, etc. While it's charging or gathering energy or performing a ritual, they're under attack and have to defend it. They are getting overwhelmed and have to choose whether to leave it behind and survive or keep fighting. Or to make it more complex, they have to choose to save someone or something else they care about.

If they successfully hold the line and defend the gem, the bad guys are forced to instead seek out a different rare item as a substitute for their purposes, and now the party knows their enemy and has learned that they need to stop them from obtaining it. If not, they lose the gem and the plot continues.

The Succubus
2011-11-18, 05:46 AM
Hmmmm.

This gem - does it contain one singular soul the players want, or several? If it's several, an idea springs to mind.

"As you set the gem on the Altar, a strange light surrounds it. A surge of light shoots past you, seeming almost humanoid in appearence. There is an almighty "crack" as a rift opens, leading to (insert upper plane good afterlife here).

<insert player action here>

"Another surge of light as a soul speeds towards its final destination, another "crack" as a fiery rift appears leading to (insert lower plane evil afterlife here)."

Then you up the rate at which the rifts spawn, or increase the size of the rifts. Eventually, something nasty on the other side of the Lower Plane rift is going to notice what's going on, giving you a chance to bring in a demon of some sort to discourage the party members from retrieving the gem.

At that point, launch the attack with the gythyanki and the dragons - it will be sheer bedlem and assuming your players are not suicidal lemmings, they will want to get out of there before they're torn to pieces by rifts, demons, gythyanki or dragons.

Kol Korran
2011-11-18, 05:47 AM
Rather than think about how to make it not seem railroady, have a contingency plan in case they escape with the gem.
...
There are a whole slew of things to do with the situation that you can build on, rather than only have one possible outcome. Sure, we all want the outcome we worked hardest on to be the one that happens, but that isn't always the case.

It's good when players surprise us - Encourage it, and their thinking that lets them succeed.

this is very true. the best times in my campaign were when the players have surprised me- often made the campaign a whole lot better! and it felt like an effecting win to the players. there is a difference between "having a chance for a chance' sakes" and a "reasonably very hard chance"

giving them a "slim chance" to win (requiring awful luck or nearly impossibly brilliant tactics) is the same as railroading, just with an excuse of feeling like you didn't.

another advice: enable "partial wins"- the party succeeds at some of their goals, or they gain some other advantage. (perhaps a gith prisoner? perhaps they can fracture the gem? or use some of ti's power for their goals?") that might also have the players feel less cheated.

i'd be wary of cheats, especially cheats that can't be interacted it or beaten- this again is quite similar (though not entirely the same) as railroading)

nedz
2011-11-18, 01:44 PM
You could have the Githyanki approach the PCs earlier and attempt a diplomatic solution. This is so that the PCs know that the item is at risk. After that its a game of backgammon - a race for the gem - with perhaps a fight at the end if the PCs suceed. The Githyanki should avoid an early confrontation.
This avoids the loot-stealing fiat, and adds tension and competition.