The Fanworks Thread: Once More, With Feeling!

[Terry576]

Okay so this is like the third Fanfiction thread that has died here. This time we're going all out. Discuss fanfiction, fanmusic, fan-videos, you name it here. Hell, discuss romhacks for games you like. This is the fan-thread, where the fans gather. Allow me to open.

I've found quite possibly the greatest Harry Potter crossover of all time ever. Who knew Fate/Stay Night could work so well with it? It's called Fictional, and it's a tad mature (considering the nature of Fate/Stay Night, unsurprising,) but well worth a read or five. it's still in progress, though it hasn't updated for two months. :smallfrown: But 60,000 words of decent plot, delicious characterization, and Harry's ease in becoming part of the F/S N universe make it all worth it.

Obligatory link. (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5871255/1/Fictional)

[Fiery Diamond]

Warning, rant ahead.

I suspect that geek-superiority, by which I mean even the nerdy kids feel themselves "above" something, is to blame for the dying out of the previous threads. It's quite astonishing to me, really, just how much people have the hate on for fanfiction. Seriously, folks, it's no less mature to write or read fanfiction than it is to watch anime. No more shameful to write in someone else's world or with someone else's characters than to create a D&D character using an existing setting and game-specific archetypes. No more ridiculous to like fanfiction than to like Magic: The Gathering. Note that you can, in the previous sentences, replace "anime" with "TV shows in general," "create a D&D character..." with "create a fantasy football team," and "Magic: The Gathering" with "sports, magazines, or clubs." The statements still hold true.

Seriously.

That wasn't directed at anyone in particular, of course, since I have no idea which specific individuals hold such irrationally negative views of fanfiction, but that I wanted to get it out there how hypocritical it is to be so judgmental of fanfiction while drooling over D&D or sports. It's fine not to like something, but to hold it as inherently inferior is both uncalled for and unreasonable.

Sure, the majority of fanfiction you come across will be terribly bad. The majority of published books are terribly bad. The majority of TV shows are terribly bad. The majority of movies are terribly bad. The majority of just about everything is terribly bad. That doesn't mean you should make a blanket statement about the category.

Furthermore, there is nothing inherently "immature" (in either sense of the word) about writing fanfiction. There is plenty of "immature" (in both senses of the word) "original" writing as well. There are truly excellent fan works; there are truly horrible original works. There are also truly horrible fan works and excellent original works, but the point is that it isn't a dichotomy.

(Oh, my two senses of "immature," for those who don't follow: immature in the sense that we talk about someone's poor behavior or inappropriate jokes being immature, and immature in the sense that something isn't fully developed and such. Example of a book some people think is immature in this second sense [and no I won't give my opinion, I don't want to argue about it in this thread] is Eragon.)

Ahem. Anyway...

Things I love requires me to plug the fanfics New Reality (A Tales of Symphonia fanfic) and The Return (and also Reconciliation) which are Zelda fanfics.

My sigged story is on hiatus right now.

[DiscipleofBob]

I don't hate fanfiction. :smallfrown: I just wish there was better stuff
available and an easier way to find it.

I just finished the first arc in my original character One Piece fic and have to wait for certain things to happen in the canon before I continue.

[Terry576]

Time for more recommendations!

Prince of the Dark Kingdom (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3766574/1/Prince_of_the_Dark_Kingdom): Voldemort won the first war. He took over, as the Potters fled the country, heading to Germany. Harold James Potter is now ten years old, and is about to be introduced to the wizarding world...

It's pretty spectacular. :smallsmile:

I'll be back later with random things as well.

[DiscipleofBob]

So I'm looking to write some more fanfiction in the Shounen genre, and I was wondering if anyone could recommend stuff.

I'm mostly looking for stuff involving original characters (and not just I-fall-into-the-fictional-universe-and-become-a-Mary-Sue but an actual original character), mostly in Naruto and Bleach, though I wouldn't also mind reading some stuff for One Piece, Fairy Tail, and Yu-Gi-Oh!.

[Terry576]

I have read quite a good number of Naruto fanfics that had decently written OCs buuut I can't think of them off the top of my head, aside from Wind Lord, which has Naruto in kind of a Overpowered, semi-unlikable character, and waaaay too much Sasuke, Sakura, and Kakashi bashing for my liking.

Although, that's because I've been spoiled by Legacy of the Rasengan (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2938888/1/Legacy_of_the_Rasengan_I_Naruto), which is pretty much a fantastically written Naruto fic, where Naruto decides to make his own jutsus at a young age, and gets better, but everyone is still in character, and Sasuke gets some fantastic character development.

[Pokonic]

I read everything by Nuger. Everything. One of the best writers on FFnet by far.

Also, for those who wish for something different and epic ( but are not afraid of a slightly aquired taste, AKA talking eqines), I present you both Fallout-Equestria (http://http://www.equestriadaily.com/2011/04/story-fallout-equestria.html) and Project Horizons (http://http://www.equestriadaily.com/2011/08/fallout-equestria-project-horizons.html), both exelent fanfictions. Fallout-Equestria might start out a bit...rough, but realy grows the beard later.
The thing is longer than most epics on shelves, and takes the dark humer of fallout and makes it even grimmer. Funnier, too. Knowing either universe is not nessisary to enjoy it, altho much of the backround is based on Friendship is magic. You will be searching for Fallout stuff if you have no experiance with it.

Horizons is probably much darker than vannilla fallout, and is set mostly in one of the most deadly citys ever created for fiction. For once, it is a side-fic by a differing auther that maches the quality of the original. Fantastic.

Also, there is the inherently depressing Pink Eyes, but I will refrain from posting its discription outside of spoilers, so tears are not shed.

Before the bombs hit, several high-tech suits where passed out to civilons. Said suits had a regeneration factor and a super-long battery, and came with its own AI. Said wearer of one of these suits went looking for her mother after the bombs hit, and miss the chance to go with the rest of the folk to the (futile) shelters. She is roughly five. She falls asleep as the wave of smog hits.

Cue a thousand years.

The suit finaly reboots itself. The little wearer of the suit, now a (unaware) member of the undead, goes off in a futile search for her mother.

"Manly tears"

[Mixt]

So...random fanfic excerpt time?

I took the liberty of removing the names of the characters, just to mess with you and not make it too obvious which fandom the fic belongs too.
*Trollface* :smallbiggrin:


A PASSION, HUMAN, BURNS AND BLIGHTS!

"Go—" He said desperately to the twins, "Go! Help them get out of here!"

"But—"

YOUR UGLY HEARTS, YOUR WRONGS AND RIGHTS!

It was worse than the oncoming dragons—the noise, the terrible, terrible noise—

"Go!"

The top of the volcano exploded—an ash cloud of concentrated, choking poison erupted from its mouth, preceding the Demon herself.

Her great, horrible head shattered through the summit and knocked down the rock walls like a hatchling breaking from its shell.

[Name Removed] was only slightly more prepared than the others, but never had he seen more than the scale of her mouth in a shadowed cavern. She was gargantuan—all jaw and teeth and too many eyes.

"GO NOW!" He roared downward.

The mountain gave way a little further as she pressed her weight on the edge with a five-digit paw.


YOU WILL SUFFER! The Demon screamed with a mighty inhale. YOU WILL BURN!

[Name Removed] felt his stomach drop. The poison in the air appeared to swirl around her oversized muzzle and pull into her throat to feed heat brewing within.

"SCATTER!"

Her next scream came with the most powerful jet of fire he ever had the misfortune to witness. He could not watch—the heat was too awful and burned his eyes and skin, even when he rose far beyond its danger—but he could hear. He heard the swearing and anguish of men burning alive.


The Demon released a dark and cruel laugh every bit as appalling as her presence. He knew he could not have been the only human hearing—it was too loud and too terrible to go unnoticed.

CRY YOUR TEARS, YOUR HUMAN WOES!

CURSE YOURSELF, THIS PATH YOU CHOSE!

But the other humans were busy crying out for each other, screaming and fighting to stay alive. None gave any inclination to hearing anything supernatural.

YOUR LORDS, YOUR RICHES, YOUR WRETCHED WHIMS...

YOUR PROGRESS SOARS, YOUR FUTURE DIMS...


The dragons swooped and each and every one released their fire into the Demon's mouth an instant before it could discharge its own. Reds and oranges, blues and purples, long and thin and fat and round, fire of every texture unionized in the very crux, beating the release of the Demon's stream by a hair's breadth.

At the forefront of this motley volley was a streak of lightning and an orb of azure.

Nobody could quite tell what happened next, because a blinding explosion of unmatched proportions set off inside the Demon. A gale exploded outward, throwing everyone off their feet.

"YEAH!" [Name Removed] crowed with his fists in the air. His ears were left ringing and his body suffocated under the overwhelming heat. Momentarily senseless, the rider could not tell how many of the dragons escaped or if they weren't quite fast enough. He didn't know if the survivors joined him in his applaud, or if they watched at all. He didn't know if any were alive to watch.

It was with this thought in mind that he welcomed the screams of the Demon. He suffered the firestorm's unbearable brightness and could just make out—through the flames surging from her pores and the smoke mushrooming over the mouth of the volcano—black talons tearing through the stone lip as the hellish creature fell back into the depths of her aerie.

FEED ME MY OWN FIRE, WILL YOU?

::She's not dead::

Oh yeah, the creature in those excerpts? It invaded my signature with it's quotes a while back (Cough)
Damn demon.

[Terry576]

So, after like nine months of waiting, I finally updated my Code Geass fanfic. (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6845268/5/Those_That_Gods_Walk_With)

I think I'll go write some more stuff now.

[Eldan]

I think the Fanfic I liked most from those I stumbled over was, for some reason, Harry Dresden, Agent of Nerv. Yes, an Evangelion/Dresden Files crossover. Nerv, secretly allied (and also kinda a rival) to the White Council, sends Warden Dresden to Tokyo to investigate how the hell gigantic outsiders can wander around on Earth freely.

Sadly, it stops before it really starts (less than 10 short chapters), and hasn't updated for ages.

[Arakune]

Okay so this is like the third Fanfiction thread that has died here. This time we're going all out. Discuss fanfiction, fanmusic, fan-videos, you name it here. Hell, discuss romhacks for games you like. This is the fan-thread, where the fans gather. Allow me to open.

I've found quite possibly the greatest Harry Potter crossover of all time ever. Who knew Fate/Stay Night could work so well with it? It's called Fictional, and it's a tad mature (considering the nature of Fate/Stay Night, unsurprising,) but well worth a read or five. it's still in progress, though it hasn't updated for two months. :smallfrown: But 60,000 words of decent plot, delicious characterization, and Harry's ease in becoming part of the F/S N universe make it all worth it.

Obligatory link. (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5871255/1/Fictional)

You need to like it, though. I prefer to stay away from that one for particular reasons, most because I don't really like Harry as a hero in general, at least not as the books show.

[Terry576]

Then go for Path of Decision (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4438449/1/Path_of_Decision)! With the Endless messing around with the wizard universe, what could possibly go wrong?!?!?

Complete, too.

[Arakune]

Then go for Path of Decision (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4438449/1/Path_of_Decision)! With the Endless messing around with the wizard universe, what could possibly go wrong?!?!?

Complete, too.

The prologue by itself is a very large turn down. Again, you need to like it.

[Terry576]

What part are we liking? Harry Potter or the other part of the crossover? :smallconfused:

Cause if you hate the Potter part then I can't really help you.

[The Durvin]

Prince of the Dark Kingdom (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3766574/1/Prince_of_the_Dark_Kingdom): Voldemort won the first war. He took over, as the Potters fled the country, heading to Germany. Harold James Potter is now ten years old, and is about to be introduced to the wizarding world....

Is this the one where Voldemort used the Voyager spacecraft as a horcrux? I read about that on tvtropes, but I don't know what thread and I've forgotten the name of it. Pretty clever solution to some of that awful villain-logic that even he fell into.

[Fiery Diamond]

Is this the one where Voldemort used the Voyager spacecraft as a horcrux? I read about that on tvtropes, but I don't know what thread and I've forgotten the name of it. Pretty clever solution to some of that awful villain-logic that even he fell into.

I'm pretty sure that's Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality, or whatever it was called. There was an entire thread about it a while ago. People generally either loved or hated it.

[pita]

Warning, rant ahead.

I suspect that geek-superiority, by which I mean even the nerdy kids feel themselves "above" something, is to blame for the dying out of the previous threads. It's quite astonishing to me, really, just how much people have the hate on for fanfiction. Seriously, folks, it's no less mature to write or read fanfiction than it is to watch anime. No more shameful to write in someone else's world or with someone else's characters than to create a D&D character using an existing setting and game-specific archetypes. No more ridiculous to like fanfiction than to like Magic: The Gathering. Note that you can, in the previous sentences, replace "anime" with "TV shows in general," "create a D&D character..." with "create a fantasy football team," and "Magic: The Gathering" with "sports, magazines, or clubs." The statements still hold true.

Seriously.

That wasn't directed at anyone in particular, of course, since I have no idea which specific individuals hold such irrationally negative views of fanfiction, but that I wanted to get it out there how hypocritical it is to be so judgmental of fanfiction while drooling over D&D or sports. It's fine not to like something, but to hold it as inherently inferior is both uncalled for and unreasonable.

Sure, the majority of fanfiction you come across will be terribly bad. The majority of published books are terribly bad. The majority of TV shows are terribly bad. The majority of movies are terribly bad. The majority of just about everything is terribly bad. That doesn't mean you should make a blanket statement about the category.

Furthermore, there is nothing inherently "immature" (in either sense of the word) about writing fanfiction. There is plenty of "immature" (in both senses of the word) "original" writing as well. There are truly excellent fan works; there are truly horrible original works. There are also truly horrible fan works and excellent original works, but the point is that it isn't a dichotomy.

(Oh, my two senses of "immature," for those who don't follow: immature in the sense that we talk about someone's poor behavior or inappropriate jokes being immature, and immature in the sense that something isn't fully developed and such. Example of a book some people think is immature in this second sense [and no I won't give my opinion, I don't want to argue about it in this thread] is Eragon.)

Ahem. Anyway...

Things I love requires me to plug the fanfics New Reality (A Tales of Symphonia fanfic) and The Return (and also Reconciliation) which are Zelda fanfics.

My sigged story is on hiatus right now.
I need to address this, as someone who generally doesn't read fanfic. The majority of TV series or films or books are bad, but it doesn't reach the quantity or the lack of quality in fanfic. Fanfic is self-published fiction, usually by people who aren't creative enough to create their own characters. I'm not saying that stuff like Avatar (I mean the film, I haven't seen the animated series) doesn't exist, and I definitely love me some of the fanfics (Harry Potter Methods of Rationality, to be exact), but most fanfics are terrible crap. TV, films, and books have to pass through studio execs or publishers before they come out, so there is at least a small bit of polish. Fanfics have to pass through the arduous selection process known as "upload button", which means that the majority of the crap that gets filtered in other (non self-published) mediums stays.
Additionally, even things like Avatar have nominally original characters. In fanfic, the best case is something like HPMOR, where the characters merely have the same names and descriptions as the originals. Worst case is pretty much the same, but the opposite direction. But bad, which is most, is when new characters either don't exist or are so blatantly superficial that there's obviously no creative process going on, and they've created no new characters. What you read, when you're reading fanfic, is usually what's written by someone who didn't have the creativity to make it in the actual world. This isn't always the case (there's always the memorable story about Neil Gaiman's terrible fanfiction, and saying that he didn't make it in the actual world is a hysterical notion, and there are also lesser examples like the author who wrote HP fanfic and then got her own stuff published), but it's most of them.
So, TLDR version: 90% of what's out there is crap. 99.999% of fanfiction is absolute crap.

[Bastian Weaver]

I agree. Fanfiction is like a fan-made addon for a game. It may be cool, it may be pathetic, it may be funny, but it's never original.
And in most cases, it is downright pathetic.

[Salbazier]

To the Stars (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7406866/5/To_the_Stars)

Puella Magi Madoka Magica in a transhumanist future. Set several centuries after the original. One of the best Madoka fanfic so far. I just keep reading it over and over again this past three days. Somehow it make me as fixated to it as the original series.


Huh, so are we going with fanfic hate war here? well, I never jump in this so...



....
So, TLDR version: 90% of what's out there is crap. 99.999% of fanfiction is absolute crap.

Majority of fanfic are crap, so what? Making numbers is just nonsensical withut actual studies and in any case it doesn't matter much. What's the difference beetwen 90% crap and 99% crap? It still a lot of crap and requiring work to filter. What's matters and worthy to talk about are the good ones, fanfic or not.


Additionally, even things like Avatar have nominally original characters. In fanfic, the best case is something like HPMOR, where the characters merely have the same names and descriptions as the originals. Worst case is pretty much the same, but the opposite direction. But bad, which is most, is when new characters either don't exist or are so blatantly superficial that there's obviously no creative process going on, and they've created no new characters.

I need to mention that some fanfic do create original characters or develop existing one. To the Stars above is one of the finest example. There are also a lot on fanfics which only nominally involved with primary canon characters and instead building over the rest of the setting, minor characters ect. Of the stuffs that I read, strategy games and LoTR fanfics are the examples that come to mind



I agree. Fanfiction is like a fan-made addon for a game. It may be cool, it may be pathetic, it may be funny, but it's never original.
And in most cases, it is downright pathetic.

The latter part, no objection there sir. The first part, sorry 'never' is overdoing
it. To the extreme, it can be said that no story are original.

[Eldan]

I can confirm that. There's entire genres of fan fictions that don't go "What if Harry Potter was a Ninja" and instead ask themselves "How is life on an Alliance Planet for the average citizen" or "How did the people of Harad see the ring war?" or "How does Europe look in the Fallout Universe?"

These take a few basic premises of the setting and build their own thing.

[dehro]

I'm one of those people who are in 99% of the case, against fanfiction.
even when it's of good quality, I find it at best disrespectful towards the author of the source material.
then again, I realize that's just my view on things and that often no disrespect is meant, in fact, the contrary is often true.
even so..if I'm a big fan of something, say tolkien or discworld...I always have a feeling that for someone else to have a go at the same setting is paramount to sacrilege.. I believe that if I like the house as it was furnished by it's owner, I don't like the idea of some random bloke walzing in and moving the furniture about or replacing bits and pieces. hell..I'm even against retconning for much the same reason (which may be one of the reasons why I stay away from most american comic books/characters).
I'd rather have something flawed but authentic than something "corrected/amended" to the point of feeling unnecessarily tampered with (george lucas, anyone?), or expanded upon by a fanboy/girl..

also... crossovers? those are almost at all times impossible to do without violating the nature, the setting or the continuity of either or both source materials. (one of many reasons why most Vs threads here ultimately end up in a battle of opinon and not one of fact)

if I don't care enough about "defending the source material"..then it's very likely I don't care enough about it to even read fanfic related to it.. I'm a bit of a trekkie, but not involved enough to get in a huff if somebody tries to alter plotlines or "items" in any of the series..so I'm not even bothering to read the countless fanfiction related to it.

also, there is an argument to be made against almost every piece of fanfiction I have encountered..either for it's blatant wet-dream/nerdgasm/prurient nature or for it's lack of quality.

so..no..I'm quite happy to purposedly ignore the fact that something has been fanfictionised (a perfectly sensible word if you ask me)
the only exception to that being good quality parodies that take the mickey out of the main themes of "insert source material of choice".
sadly, those are hard to come by... and I find even less of them than are out there because I'm not willing to go through piles of dross to find a single gem. my loss, I suppose, but a choice I'm happy with.

[pita]

MEGA POST
I feel a problem with responding to your post properly, as I have not read the fanfiction in question, nor do I know of the original work, so I can't read it in the proper frame of mind.
Fanfic, by its nature, is unoriginal. That is part one of my claim, and it's undeniable. I'm not saying there's no originality in fanfiction, because there very obviously is. But there's much less than anywhere else (other than Hollywood BOOYAH).
Part two of my claim is that self-published fiction is more often terrible than fiction that goes through the process of editors and such. This is also undeniable. As fanfiction is always self published, this is also undeniable.

I'm not against fanfiction in any way, but I am against people claiming it has equal footing to (let's say) anime. Besides the fact that anime is a platform and fanfiction is a genre and they should not be mixed (I consider fan-comics and fan-made films to be fanfiction as well), anime has original stories, though the fact that most anime (if not all) is based on manga makes this a dubious claim as well. However, I could go into the whole "anime is authorized by the creators of the manga" argument... this could go on forever. I'll just go with a non-dubious claim. Non-dubious claim would be that fanfiction is lesser to original fiction, because it has the two flaws (or only the first flaw, because the second is becoming more common elsewhere) that other works don't have.

[Salbazier]

Saying that something is unoriginal and have originality at the same time is, at best a confusing statement.

What do you (and other people) actually means when talking about originality? And how that relates to the quality or worth of said work?

Using your logic, a story (officially published by a big publisher) that use characters from the legend of King Arthur or any other common figures in any other tales would then deserve nothing more than being derided as 'unoriginal' and 'lesser form of literature', no mater how much quality its have as a literary work or how much reinterpretation of the old characters done by the author.

And yes, I can deny your statement, specifically the part in the first post that says a fanfic cannot have an original character (that is also a good one). I at least can attest that there are myriad of good fanfics out there that have tons of original characters or even only use original characters. Eldan post give more relatable examples than mine, I guess.

I never deny the lack of quality control issue, I'm just saying that in some way, it doesn't mean much, because both with fanfics and non-fanfics you have to sort through a astounding amount of crap to found a good one.

In short:
'Fanfic cannot have original character' I disagree this with statement.
'Unoriginality=lesser' I question the truth and non-ambiguity of this statement.

[Eldan]

I'd be careful to make a difference between adaptation and fan fiction. An adaptation is usually authorized and mostly follows the same plot. (I say mostly. There are e.g. so many Dracula movies that barely follow the book). Fan fiction is set in the same universe but has a different plot and is unauthorized.

Then there's the wonky things. Star Wars novels are authorized, but not really canon. There are book series written by a dozen different authors. There's strange stuff like Sanderson finishing the Wheel of Time.

As for unoriginal... that's a really complicated issue too. I mean, Tolkien took dwarves and elves from Germanic mythology. Now, true, he changed most and fit them into his own world and added a lot of details on his own, but still. Anyone who's read The Hero with a Thousand Faces (and likes to be pretentious about it, more often than not) can tell you that there aren't that many basic story structures or character archetypes to go around.

[pita]

Saying that something is unoriginal and have originality at the same time is, at best a confusing statement.
It's simple. Fanfiction is fiction based on a specific work. As such, it is less original than fiction either based on common tropes or charting new ground. I don't see why this is a controversial statement. However, it can have originality, such as HPMOR's plotlines, or the renewed Voldemort, who is entirely unlike book Voldemort in personality.
Originality (like creativity) isn't an "It's there or it's not" deal. It's a sliding scale. One can be original without being perfectly original, and one can be unoriginal with a few clever ideas.

Using your logic, a story (officially published by a big publisher) that use characters from the legend of King Arthur or any other common figures in any other tales would then deserve nothing more than being derided as 'unoriginal' and 'lesser form of literature', no mater how much quality its have as a literary work or how much reinterpretation of the old characters done by the author.
I think it's less original to use characters like King Arthur's knights than it is to create your own, even if your own do end up somewhat similar.
I'll use an example: Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn: The Last Empire's original concept was "The dark lord beat the forces of good. Now is a thousand years later." He could've alluded to things happening in The Lord of the Rings without copyright infringement, and created a novel out of that. Instead, he went with his own "intrepid group of plucky heroes fight darkness" story, and gave himself room for more originality, and more cleverness, in the sequels and in the actual novel's plot. A "What If" fanfiction for the Lord of the Rings written by Sanderson with the idea of "What happens after Sauron takes over the world" would be original, and probably awesome, but it would not have been as good as Mistborn.
EDIT here - I also just remembered an author writing (sort of) the story of Lord of the Rings (though she changed a lot of details to avoid lawsuits) written from the perspective of The Witch King, and reading page after page of Amazon reviews of "lol the author copied from lotr what a hack". This work falls into a major gray area of my opinions and therefore I will disregard it utterly.

And yes, I can deny your statement, specifically the part in the first post that says a fanfic cannot have an original character (that is also a good one). I at least can attest that there are myriad of good fanfics out there that have tons of original characters or even only use original characters. Eldan post give more relatable examples than mine, I guess.
They can have an original characters. I didn't outright deny that, but I did imply that was my thought, now that I reread my first post. Hmmm... I concede this point, as the "sliding scale" I'm touting only appears in this post, and I hate the idea of saying "this is what I meant all along".

I never deny the lack of quality control issue, I'm just saying that in some way, it doesn't mean much, because both with fanfics and non-fanfics you have to sort through a astounding amount of crap to found a good one.
There's a difference between the ratio of crap and noncrap, is what I'm saying. "My Immortal" would never have been published for an author trying to get a publisher behind them. I realize My Immortal is assumed to be a parody, but I can't think of another good example to use.
EDIT here as well - I think on the positive end of quality this exists as well. The best fanfiction I've read is HPMOR, the best novels I've read are Bakker's Second Apocalypse series. I think the Second Apocalypse is leagues better than HPMOR. This, however, may be just because I'm not very well read in fanfiction, and I am very well read in fantasy, especially modern fantasists like Bakker.

[Salbazier]

I'd be careful to make a difference between adaptation and fan fiction. An adaptation is usually authorized and mostly follows the same plot. (I say mostly. There are e.g. so many Dracula movies that barely follow the book). Fan fiction is set in the same universe but has a different plot and is unauthorized.

Then there's the wonky things. Star Wars novels are authorized, but not really canon. There are book series written by a dozen different authors. There's strange stuff like Sanderson finishing the Wheel of Time.

Ah, noted. Still, authorization is different than originality and I was talking using King arthur/folktales adaptation as my example anyway, which doesn't require authorization ...and thus makes thing even more confusing.

[pita]

Ah, noted. Still, authorization is different than originality and I was talking using King arthur/folktales adaptation as my example anyway, which doesn't require authorization ...and thus makes thing even more confusing.

Sort of adding this to my previous post: Yes it does. The authorization problem is one I'm not even going to try to figure out. Is Starcraft fanfiction less original than "Speed of Darkness"? How about "Liberty's Crusade", which is really just portions of the game in text form?
I'm going to sleep now, so this is the last thing I see before I sleep, and then tomorrow I'm gonna pretty much disappear for a while...
I'm not trying to say that all fanfiction is inferior to all fiction. There is fanfiction that is better than fiction, and quite a bit of it is more than worthy of a read. However, if I have to choose between reading something I heard is good and is not fanfiction, and good fanfiction, I will choose the non fanfiction in an instant, without hesitation. And any attempt to say that fanfiction is on an equal level with non-fanfiction is something I disagree with utterly, because non-fanfiction has much more room for originality, since it's not limited by the constraints of the original. The way I express it may be controversial, because I am not a nice person by anyone's standards, but I think that my opinion isn't. It's only logical.
QUICK EDIT BEFORE I SLEEP - IT'S ONLY LOGICAL SOUNDS LIKE SOMETHING A PSYCHOTIC VILLAIN ROBOT WILL SAY. IT IS AWESOME, AND DESPITE ADDING NOTHING TO MY POST I LOVE IT.

[Salbazier]

@pita

Okay, I can agree on the sliding scale.

My remaining contestion is about why less originality means less quality? Admitedly, both fanfic and authorized adaptation tend to degrade in quality from the original, but there arealso fanfic and adaptation that improve from the original. Unfortunately, the only examples that come to mind are anime fanfics like Lelouch of Britannia but I'm sure there are others.

[Eldan]

There are some movie adaptations of books people generally consider superior. The Godfather is often quoted as a movie that is much better than the book.

[warty goblin]

I can confirm that. There's entire genres of fan fictions that don't go "What if Harry Potter was a Ninja" and instead ask themselves "How is life on an Alliance Planet for the average citizen" or "How did the people of Harad see the ring war?" or "How does Europe look in the Fallout Universe?"

These take a few basic premises of the setting and build their own thing.

See, this strikes me as missing the forest for the trees. The interesting bit of the setting in a fantastical/science fiction world isn't the nuts and bolts of the made up history and all the rest. It's the idea behind it, and if somebody finds that idea interesting enough to get the creative juices flowing, that's great. But taking that idea, working with it, making it theirs, then building from that will produce better, bolder and more interesting results than merely changing a few bits of trim around the borders, or doing a needlessly in-depth analysis of a particular nonexistent bolt. Sort of by definition, this is about all fanfiction can do, although I find this phenomena hardly limited to fanworks.

Take the STALKER games, which are by the developers' own admission heavily inspired by the Fallout games, and some of the same ideas are very much there. But there's more than that going on, because GSC didn't simply regurgitate Fallout: Ukraine, they added some stuff from elsewhere and a good bit of their inventiveness to get something at least partly new.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with fanfiction, it just seems sort of pointless, and a bit lazy somehow. Also, as noted the lack of quality control is a serious turn-off. Sure there's plenty of non fanworks stuff that sucks, but that doesn't deny a strong positive correlation between fanfiction and suckage. I've got hundreds of years of often very high quality writing available, why would I read malformed prose just to keep seeing the names of my favorite characters?

[Bastian Weaver]

The latter part, no objection there sir. The first part, sorry 'never' is overdoing
it. To the extreme, it can be said that no story are original.

It can be said so, yes. But I can hardly imagine an original fanfiction story. Sounds like a contradiction in terms to me.

[Terraoblivion]

I'd like to point you towards Touhou then, Warty. I'm sure you'd hate it, given that it is essentially about cute anime-style girls in rather fetishy outfits, but it has also shown itself to have make for a remarkable degree of creativity as a shared universe to work within. The sheer amount of variety found in it is pretty staggering given how fanworks of it has been used for everything from autobiographies to melodrama to parodies of the cultural revolution. It also shows a remarkable diversity in how the same elements can be used where the same character can be everything from a ditzy schoolgirl to a a genocidal sociopath and have it accepted as common, mainstream portrayals of the character.

While it isn't pure, unfettered originality, the amount of ways the same components have been combined and recombined by fans is quite staggering and shows quite a bit of creativity. Not just that, there is no small sense of actually using the original as a mirror enhancing creativity and originality on the part of the producer by providing existing tools and elements to build greater complexity than they had otherwise been able to. I know this from personal experience based on how only one original RP character I've ever made even gets close to my portrayal of the character Alice Margatroid on this site (http://rp.mokou.org/index.php) in terms of depth, complexity and moving outside traditional clichés. At least I'm pretty sure I'd never have come up with something like a mad scientist struggling to be a good mother while working to deal with her unresolved inferiority complex towards her own mother on my own. The ability to have something to mirror your creation in and use as grounding for it can help beginning or moderately untalented writers think more deeply and create something more unique than they otherwise would.

And speaking of Touhou fanworks, Maiden Illusionary Funeral (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/VISIONNERZ) is quite a good epic love story, despite some gratuitous nudity.

[Salbazier]

Take the STALKER games, which are by the developers' own admission heavily inspired by the Fallout games, and some of the same ideas are very much there. But there's more than that going on, because GSC didn't simply regurgitate Fallout: Ukraine, they added some stuff from elsewhere and a good bit of their inventiveness to get something at least partly new.


Disclaimer: I don't know STALKER and hardly know Fallout. I'm confused though. What you means by getting something partly new? I'm under impression a lot of fanfiction did that already.


I've got hundreds of years of often very high quality writing available, why would I read malformed prose just to keep seeing the names of my favorite characters?

For me, I just read the good ones.

[warty goblin]

I'd like to point you towards Touhou then, Warty. I'm sure you'd hate it, given that it is essentially about cute anime-style girls in rather fetishy outfits, but it has also shown itself to have make for a remarkable degree of creativity as a shared universe to work within. The sheer amount of variety found in it is pretty staggering given how fanworks of it has been used for everything from autobiographies to melodrama to parodies of the cultural revolution. It also shows a remarkable diversity in how the same elements can be used where the same character can be everything from a ditzy schoolgirl to a a genocidal sociopath and have it accepted as common, mainstream portrayals of the character.

While it isn't pure, unfettered originality, the amount of ways the same components have been combined and recombined by fans is quite staggering and shows quite a bit of creativity. Not just that, there is no small sense of actually using the original as a mirror enhancing creativity and originality on the part of the producer by providing existing tools and elements to build greater complexity than they had otherwise been able to.

I'd consider people collaborating on a project as a substantially different thing than fanfiction. Active partnership can be incredibly productive, benefit all parties, and allow them to do things that simply cannot be accomplished alone.


I know this from personal experience based on how only one original RP character I've ever made even gets close to my portrayal of the character Alice Margatroid on this site (http://rp.mokou.org/index.php) in terms of depth, complexity and moving outside traditional clichés. At least I'm pretty sure I'd never have come up with something like a mad scientist struggling to be a good mother while working to deal with her unresolved inferiority complex towards her own mother on my own. Maybe not without practice, maybe never, but there's a lot to be learned from trying hard and failing, probably more than using a shortcut to succeeding. Let me give an example: I'm a graduate student in statistics, and last semester I was doing problems from a book which had a solution manual available online. For about 90% of the problems I could simply look up the answers, copy them down and do much better than I could trying to work through the problems on my own, and in much less time.

I learned more - much more - about how to actually do good work by trying to work through the problems alone, even though I usually did not get as good of a grade, and it was a hell of a lot more work. Finding out what didn't work on my own taught me more than seeing what did and copying it.

The ability to have something to mirror your creation in and use as grounding for it can help beginning or moderately untalented writers think more deeply and create something more unique than they otherwise would.

Part of my problem with fanfiction is that I try to have reasonably high standards. Something that helps mediocre writers is fine, but it's still mediocre, and generally I try to avoid mediocre things. As a tool to help people learn how to write creatively it may have its place*, but I'm not sure it follows that it's something particularly useful or valuable for people to read.

*I tend to be skeptical of this as well. One after all learns by doing, and excels by learning to succeed when held to a high standard. While setting out to write the Great American Novel or sweep lots of major awards on your first try is probably catastrophically overambitious, it still seems to me that the better way to learn to be good at being creative is to force oneself to be creative. Sure you'll probably fail, and that's discouraging, but failing is a very valuable learning tool.

And speaking of Touhou fanworks, Maiden Illusionary Funeral (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/VISIONNERZ) is quite a good epic love story, despite some gratuitous nudity.
I'll give it a read next week, but I'm borrowing my Mom's computer over break, so it's probably not the place for gratuitous nudity.


Disclaimer: I don't know STALKER and hardly know Fallout. I'm confused though. What you means by getting something partly new? I'm under impression a lot of fanfiction did that already.

What I mean is that while there are certainly elements of Fallout's Wasteland in STALKER's Zone, it is also very much different, both in details and central concept. Fallout is often goofy, and gets what edge it has by sticking a broad stereotyping of 1950's sci-fi optimism into a exaggeratedly dark and violent world. STALKER is about human frailty and decay in the face of a fundamentally alien and inhuman landscape. Both use the language of post-nuclear wasteland and mutants to express this, but it there is a lot of reinvention between the two at all levels.

[Salbazier]

I'd consider people collaborating on a project as a substantially different thing than fanfiction. Active partnership can be incredibly productive, benefit all parties, and allow them to do things that simply cannot be accomplished alone.



Its a collaborative works on fanfiction! AFAIK, most of Touhou has nothing to do with ZUN.

[warty goblin]

Its a collaborative works on fanfiction! AFAIK, most of Touhou has nothing to do with ZUN.

I'm a bit out of my depth here, since at this point I have no idea what any of these things are (and it's 1:30AM, so I'm not going to find out right now), but I suspect what I said before still stands. The fanfictiony bits I simply can't see the point of, the collaborative portions could be quite worthwhile.

[Terraoblivion]

It's not really collaborative work when people make it individually or in small groups. It's not that there is a central Touhou group working together, there is no fanbible to draw on for how to properly do Touhou. There are just fans who make whatever they feel like making for it. Some even make fan fiction of the works of other fans. And again, the divergence of interpretations is utterly massive, sometimes fans can't even agree on something as basic as physical appearance or just choose to disagree for the fun of it. One story has a millenia old immortal from the moon as a baby and daughter of her canon apprentice because the artist found it entertaining. Another has a vampire with the mental and physical maturity of a seven year old take the role of Stalin. It's just chaotic, varied and often completely disregarding what canon exists. But also the works that stick closer to canon have quite a bit of variety, fans still haven't worked out whether Yuuka is an inhuman, murderous monster or a lonely woman with a weird sense of humor.

Also, it's worth keeping in mind how trite and derivative supposedly original stories can be. When was the last time Hollywood produced a romantic comedy that wasn't strictly to formula? Summer blockbusters aren't much more varied either. Being trite, formulaic and uninspired isn't particularly the field of fan fiction and for most writers it might well be less so as they have a place to start thinking about a character and how to interpret them. They have concepts that have been mentioned, but not really explored that they can focus on and perhaps most importantly they already have passion for the topic. Writing fan fiction gives you a starting point, a sense of direction and a topic you have spent a lot of effort trying to understand, writing original fiction without either a deep inner drive or resorting to existing formulas is far harder to get started on and it might well be easier to fall into the trap of not doing something new since you need to lay the groundwork. It's like how 99% of all original D&D campaign settings are essentially just Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms minus the early weirdness and the amount of detail.

Oh, and about my playing Alice Margatroid, most of those details were my creation and interpretation. Whether she has someone who can be considered daughters is an open question, as is whether the character commonly interpreted as her mother actually is. Not just that, the details of why she feels the way she does towards them are by no means official or even that strongly hinted at in canon. Her canon personality mostly consists of being sarcastic, being reclusive and her mad scientist traits. Her complicated family relations, trouble with intimacy and competitive instinct are all my interpretation and in a very real sense something I made, but I would never have gotten started without the basis of the character existing. Having her and trying to work out what made her tick gave me a starting point for developing her into a fleshed out character, something that she isn't in the very limited canon of the series. And that is the strength of Touhou for fanworks of all kinds, it gives a very basic starting point and many basic relationships that you have to tinker around with if you want to use or even get a real feel for the characters. You can't just look at what is presented in official works and go with that since there simply isn't enough.

Another thing that springs to mind is how the concept of shared characters and stories used independently has been a big part of the history of art. In fact, we wouldn't have had quite a few major works of the western canon without it. There would be no King Oedipus by Sofokles, nor a Medea by Euripides, no Mort d'Arthur or Paradise Lost without it. The Last Supper would never have been painted nor would Brueghel's Tower of Babel. For that matter we wouldn't have had Wagner's operas or Don Giovanni. Hamlet would not exist either. Reuse of plots, characters, scenes and visuals has been huge and has influenced much of the greatest classics of western art. If you're really interested in this concept Abigail Derecho has a fine history of fan fiction and it's very old roots in her essay in Fan Fiction and Fan Communities in the Age of the Internet, one of many academic works on the topic of fan fiction.

[Salbazier]

You may don't see the point of writing fanfiction but for a lot of people that is exactly one of the important point of writing for a myriad reasons. Maybe they got into writing because they continue to imagine 'what if' scenario of their favorite fiction. Maybe its the community/group experience. Maybe its because they enjoy exploring the 'unexplored vistas' or the 'nonexistent bolts' of a certain work. How many of Tolkien's fans in this half of century spend their time debating subjects as boring as 'vegetation of Shire' or 'sewage system of Gondor'? It really looks like a pointless exercise to some people, but for others it is a worthwhile activity.

edit:

Tangentialy related musing: DoTA is really just a custom map for Warcraft but it has spawned its own genre. Does founding a genre of its own still not enough to be deserving of being called 'original'?

[Eldan]

Not Gondor, maybe, but I've been in some highly detailed and very, very weird discussions about Elder Scrolls History and Metaphysics.

[Salbazier]

Not Gondor, maybe, but I've been in some highly detailed and very, very weird discussions about Elder Scrolls History and Metaphysics.

Passing through such discussion is what led me to find out more about elder scrolls.

[pita]

My remaining contestion is about why less originality means less quality? Admitedly, both fanfic and authorized adaptation tend to degrade in quality from the original, but there arealso fanfic and adaptation that improve from the original. Unfortunately, the only examples that come to mind are anime fanfics like Lelouch of Britannia but I'm sure there are others.

I don't know how to respond to this. Originality is awesome. It's the difference between The Expendables and Inception (Donald Duck notwithstanding...), or LotR fanfic where Sauron wins and Mistborn. Originality is an essential part of quality. No matter how well

About the originality in film... I think film is an issue because it is possibly the most industrialized creative work out there. It's a wholly different can of worms, and I think a new thread should be started about that topic...

[Salbazier]

I don't know how to respond to this. Originality is awesome. It's the difference between The Expendables and Inception (Donald Duck notwithstanding...), or LotR fanfic where Sauron wins and Mistborn. Originality is an essential part of quality. No matter how well



I think both of us is kind of unclear in what kind of originality we are talking about and how much. I'm talking about original not in the sense of new way of storytelling, but original in the sense that the characters and setting are new.

Anyway, those examples above are the comparison I have mind. More like something, say a novel with original character and setting (in the sense that they have new names and history, not necessarily new archetype) compared to a fanfic that explore a hardly explained part of a setting or deconstruct a canon. The latter, inevitably will reuse an existing element of a canon. Is the latter always the lesser one even when the former sucks in storytelling?



About the originality in film... I think film is an issue because it is possibly the most industrialized creative work out there. It's a wholly different can of worms, and I think a new thread should be started about that topic...

Eh, sorry I don't get this at all. I sort of get that the movie industry is more ...something than say, publishing industry, but not quite clear in what. I don't understand why it makes thing different either.

[pita]

Anyway, those examples above are the comparison I have mind. More like something, say a novel with original character and setting (in the sense that they have new names and history, not necessarily new archetype) compared to a fanfic that explore a hardly explained part of a setting or deconstruct a canon. The latter, inevitably will reuse an existing element of a canon. Is the latter always the lesser one even when the former sucks in storytelling?
Of course not. But in a situation where everything is equal, I would read an original. My point is always that fan fiction is inferior in general, but HPMoR is definitely better by far than Eragon, which is almost exactly your example.

Eh, sorry I don't get this at all. I sort of get that the movie industry is more ...something than say, publishing industry, but not quite clear in what. I don't understand why it makes thing different either.
Because the process to crate a new film(and I do not include independent
movies like The Gamers in this category) is entirely about profit, and being a novelist or a comic book writer is so inherently unprofitable that the industry isn't owned by greed, but by dedication to art. There are always exceptions to both (Nolan for film, the various Meyer knockoffs for novels), but in general, this is the case. Cracked ran an article a while back about the process to create films which made me seriously rethink my screenwriting ambitions.

[Fiery Diamond]

Original. How many "original" works really are? (Hint: a minority)
Furthermore, original=/=good.

Once upon a time I thought fanfiction was written only by people who didn't have the skill or originality to make their own stuff. Then I came across fanfiction that proved me wrong. There is fanfiction out there that has considerably more originality to it than many so-called "original" fiction works. There is also fanfiction out there that is considerably better than what it is fanfiction of.

To deride fanfiction because another's ideas, concepts, setting, or characters are used is... let's just say wrongheaded. Quality is important, not just whether every single aspect is completely original.

[Salbazier]

Of course not. But in a situation where everything is equal, I would read an original. My point is always that fan fiction is inferior in general, but HPMoR is definitely better by far than Eragon, which is almost exactly your example.



That still doesn't answer my question: Why reusing existing characters or setting elements ('unoriginality') means inferiority?

You argued that fanfic is inferior in general, but why it is inferior in general, quality control issue aside? Certainly not lack of originality because we have already established that 1) fanfic can have originality 2) lack of originality doesn't prevent it from having quality.

(BTW, I prefer reading Eragon to HPMoR but that just me)



Because the process to crate a new film(and I do not include independent
movies like The Gamers in this category) is entirely about profit, and being a novelist or a comic book writer is so inherently unprofitable that the industry isn't owned by greed, but by dedication to art. There are always exceptions to both (Nolan for film, the various Meyer knockoffs for novels), but in general, this is the case. Cracked ran an article a while back about the process to create films which made me seriously rethink my screenwriting ambitions.

Is it so? Not that I know much about, but I tend to think that orientation to profit dominates publishing industry just as much it does in any industry. Hmm, do you have a link to said article?

[DiscipleofBob]

The biggest complaint I remember about Avatar, a movie which was about 9-foot tall dragon-riding cat people with USB ports for hair fighting mechs while the protagonist is wheelchair-bound but gets a new body of the alien race and the whole movie revolutionized 3D technology, was that it was "unoriginal."

There is no such thing as originality in its purest sense any more. When Avatar can be called unoriginal, you have officially run out of possible ideas. Judging any work by its originality is useless because there is none.

[Tavar]

Not true in the slightest. The visual aspect of the setting, and certain plot points, were original.

But the idea of natives being pushed off their land by a greedy corporation/nation, which is only fought off when one of the corporation's own switches sides and joins the natives(who, by the way, live in peaceful harmony with nature)? That's not too original, and that's the most essential plot points of the movie.

This isn't to support any particular side in the debate, just a counter to DiscipleofBob's post.

[Terraoblivion]

Not really. The visuals were new, though hardly revolutionary, and the use of the specific technology the best there had been yet, but the story it was used to tell is hardly new. The story of white, technologically advanced people destroying the "pure" way of life of indigenous people by means of a white man, never a woman to my knowledge, rallying said indigenous people to fight back is hardly new. It's pretty much the exact same story as Disney's Pocahontas, The Last Samurai and roughly a trillion movies about showing sensitivity to Native Americans, while never letting them speak for themselves. It's not terribly different from all the movies of how white people gave black people civil rights or a career in sports or academics either, when you get down to it. Really, the whole "non-white people succeeds against evil white people thanks to the efforts of a white man" is one of the most clichéd, overused genres of movie out there.

For that matter, the use of 3D wasn't original either, it was just good unlike previous attempts at using it. Not like people haven't periodically tried making it work since the 1950s. It wasn't even new technology compared to earlier 3D movies in the latest attempt at it, rather it was simply the most successful use of it up to that point.

Nor is the visual design that new. Distinctive enough to be its own, but hardly groundbreaking and utterly unlike anything ever seen before, with the landscapes drawing on a wide variety of inspirations in fantasy illustration and animated movies. Similarly catpeople are really quite an overused animal human hybrid, dating as far back as Hindu mythology.

Really, nothing was particularly original about the movie, it just used the very well-known elements better than most other attempts at using them. Which is at the heart of the matter, originality is not necessarily a requirement for quality, as a rather unoriginal movie is also held to be very good.

[Mystic Muse]

Alright. I have a question for the thread.

What are the people here who are against Fan-Fiction defining it as exactly? Just a new story set in a pre-established setting or with Pre-established characters?

[Salbazier]

After thinking, I think I've found answer to my own question.

First of all, it is intuitive to think 'unoriginal=bad' and so dismiss fanfiction, but if we actually consider it deeply, the value of originality can be quite dubious.

Originality exist in multiple dimension. Rather than saying a work of fiction can be unoriginal and still have originality, I would say that you can call a certain work both as original and unoriginal with equal validity, depend on which aspect we are talking about. Originality is also not directly related with quality. A story can introduce original ideas and became memorable or notable because of it but memorable is not the same with quality. If badly executed, then the story cannot be a good one. I'm bad at calling up examples, so I'll ask the forum instead: Anyone can think of a work fiction with original concept/ideas but fall flat because of bad writing?

Truly 100% original work clearly doesn't exist. Every story use something that has been used before. But there are story that combine elements in innovative way that its became, to a varying degree, unlike those that has come before. Madoka Magica deconstruct magical girl genre, Gundam introduce a lot of new elements into giant robot anime and establish the real robot genre, and Lord of the Rings didn't quite found fantasy literature, but its close to. These are examples of works that is exceptional not only because of good writing, but also because of its originality and becomes even more memorable for it. But most of the works that exist are not groundbreaking. Often the only originality that exist are hardly more than just skins and names. It is pointless to claim this sort of originality as advantage these works have over fanfiction.

Now those examples above became what they are by being original works. To tell the story of 'war with giant robots' Gundam need to create a setting where giant robot are mass produced as a weapon and the enemy are not just an evil empire that sends new monster each week. Madoka need to create a setting with magical girl system that differs than any other MG show. We can say then, that creating a groundbreak like this are harder to do in a fanfiction. But harder are not the same with impossible. Outside of fiction, there is DoTA. It is really just a custom map of Warcraft 3 but it has spawned its own genre. Who can say that fanfiction can't do the same. Maybe it did already but I'm not aware of it. Maybe it did, but opinions differ. Still, even if it can be done, it will be hard for its author to gain recognition for it. Because 1) the intuitive 'fanfiction=unoriginal' notion that color the perception and 2) simple lack of exposure. So, if fanfiction have any inferiority related to originality issue, this is it. Someone who want to leave a legacy as writer is better served doing original works. ('original works' = work of fiction with its own character and setting)

Concerning the benefits of writing fanfiction for author, I think it really comes down to the author's purpose of writing and their personal preference in the first place. I don't buy the argument 'original work trains more in creating stuff' because you can always create something new even in a fanfic if you want to and there is more to writing than just creating stuff. Some people enjoy writing fanfic than original works and I'm holding to the principle than it is better to do something you enjoyed. I myself doesn't write fanfiction, but it more of just preference. I have a lot of fanfic ideas but not the will to put it into form.

On the readers' side, I can understand that people may prefer to read something 'fresh' but to me, 'freshness' can also be gained from fanfiction. Orcbrat is LoTR fanfic about a human child trapped by situation to follow a band of orcs. To The Stars is a Madoka fanfic about the lives of magical girls in a future transhuman society that also aware of their existence. Not spectaculary original premises, but 'fresh' enough for me.

To conclude, originality is misunderstood and overrated.

[Fiery Diamond]

After thinking, I think I've found answer to my own question.

First of all, it is intuitive to think 'unoriginal=bad' and so dismiss fanfiction, but if we actually consider it deeply, the value of originality can be quite dubious.

Originality exist in multiple dimension. Rather than saying a work of fiction can be unoriginal and still have originality, I would say that you can call a certain work both as original and unoriginal with equal validity, depend on which aspect we are talking about. Originality is also not directly related with quality. A story can introduce original ideas and became memorable or notable because of it but memorable is not the same with quality. If badly executed, then the story cannot be a good one. I'm bad at calling up examples, so I'll ask the forum instead: Anyone can think of a work fiction with original concept/ideas but fall flat because of bad writing?

Truly 100% original work clearly doesn't exist. Every story use something that has been used before. But there are story that combine elements in innovative way that its became, to a varying degree, unlike those that has come before. Madoka Magica deconstruct magical girl genre, Gundam introduce a lot of new elements into giant robot anime and establish the real robot genre, and Lord of the Rings didn't quite found fantasy literature, but its close to. These are examples of works that is exceptional not only because of good writing, but also because of its originality and becomes even more memorable for it. But most of the works that exist are not groundbreaking. Often the only originality that exist are hardly more than just skins and names. It is pointless to claim this sort of originality as advantage these works have over fanfiction.

Now those examples above became what they are by being original works. To tell the story of 'war with giant robots' Gundam need to create a setting where giant robot are mass produced as a weapon and the enemy are not just an evil empire that sends new monster each week. Madoka need to create a setting with magical girl system that differs than any other MG show. We can say then, that creating a groundbreak like this are harder to do in a fanfiction. But harder are not the same with impossible. Outside of fiction, there is DoTA. It is really just a custom map of Warcraft 3 but it has spawned its own genre. Who can say that fanfiction can't do the same. Maybe it did already but I'm now aware of it. Maybe it did, but opinions differ. Still, even if it can be done, it will be hard for its author to gain recognition for it. Because 1) the intuitive 'fanfiction=unoriginal' notion that color the perception and 2) simple lack of exposure. So, if fanfiction have any inferiority related to originality issue, this is it. Someone who want to leave a legacy as writer is better served doing original works. ('original works' = work of fiction with its own character and setting)

Concerning the benefits of writing fanfiction for author, I think it really comes down to the author's purpose of writing and their personal preference in the first place. I don't buy the argument 'original work trains more in creating stuff' because you can always create something new even in a fanfic if you want to and there is more to writing than just creating stuff. Some people enjoy writing fanfic than original works and I'm holding to the principle than it is better to do something you enjoyed. I myself doesn't write fanfiction, but it more of just preference. I have a lot of fanfic ideas but not the will to put it into form.

On the readers' side, I can understand that people may prefer to read something 'fresh' but to me, 'freshness' can also be gained from fanfiction. Orcbrat is LoTR fanfic about a human child trapped by situation to follow a band of orcs. To The Stars is a Madoka fanfic about the lives of magical girls in a future transhuman society that also aware of their existence. Not spectaculary original premises, but 'fresh' enough for me.

To conclude, originality is misunderstood and overrated.

I find myself in complete agreement with you (well, except for the part where you don't write fanfic and I occasionally do).

[DiscipleofBob]

I think the major handicap fanfiction suffers from right now is that the only real well-known site for fanfiction is fanfiction.net, a horrible, badly managed site that makes searching for good fanfiction like finding the one needle on the elemental plane of hay.

[Salbazier]

I find myself in complete agreement with you (well, except for the part where you don't write fanfic and I occasionally do).

Thank you. I tried writing fanfic once or twice before actually. I got stumped the last time trying to depict the characters properly and haven't look at it again. Though, I have been neglecting my other writings as well.


I think the major handicap fanfiction suffers from right now is that the only real well-known site for fanfiction is fanfiction.net, a horrible, badly managed site that makes searching for good fanfiction like finding the one needle on the elemental plane of hay.
True. Nowadays I only browse the site through other people recomenndations/favorite list or my own list of authors that are proven good, which make threads like this invaluable.

On that note: To The Stars (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7406866/6/To_the_Stars) was updated and I screamed/yelled/squealed while grinning like mad in the middle of the night and woke up my family. :smallbiggrin: Man, I really got obsessed with this one. (Doesn't help that I was re-reading my favorite PMMM fanfics lately)

Also, let me recommend this Harry Potter/Dresden crossover: Master of Death (http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=211942). One of the few HP fics that interesting enough for me to read it. Any other fic by Ryuugi on that site is quite read-worthy as well. Apparently 'master of death' theme was popular in the fandom?