A few questions for you good folks.

[Dragonsoul]

I'm trying to make a character that's yo-yo-ing the alignment sheet to qualify for prestige classes(Among other things)

1)Is Atonement a catch-all for swinging alignment changes very quickly? (As in Exalted Monk-> Blackguard -> Paladin Level of running up and down the scale) or can I just change it and get Atonements for all the oathbreaking that will happen.

2)What's the easiest way to a particular spell unto your class list(Magic circle against Evil in this case) Preferably from a divine base.

3)For wizard spells what are the saving throws/SR/Touch AC I should expect to have to have to be safe form the spells that allow saves/make touch attacks.

4)Can a Marshall change his aura in response to a wizard casting a spell?

[agentnone]

I don't have a whole lot of expertise with alignments and whatnot, but from what I do know, if an alignment is a requirement to be a class, you lose all class features if you lose that alignment aspect. Meaning, if a LG Paladin loses either the L or the G due to actions or willingly shifting, then the Paladin loses all Paladin class features. Same with Monk and Bard. Atonement only lets you atone for your transgressions so you can get back your previous alignment, such as with a Paladin that slips up and goes from LG to LN. He would use Atonement spell to go back to LG. Hope this helps a little bit.

Edit: However, you could always discuss this stuff with the DM and he may waive some of the alignment requirements or make alignment alterations to the classes in question.

[Zaq]

I don't have a whole lot of expertise with alignments and whatnot, but from what I do know, if an alignment is a requirement to be a class, you lose all class features if you lose that alignment aspect.

This isn't actually true. It's true for the Paladin, but not for, say, the Monk. What actually happens is spelled out in the class itself. For example, a Lawful Barbarian can't rage, but they can still use Uncanny Dodge. There's no general rule.

It's a bit different for PrCs, since you get into the whole issue of what happens when you lose a prereq for a PrC . . . but base classes have restrictions, not prereqs. There's a difference.

[Elboxo]

This isn't actually true. It's true for the Paladin, but not for, say, the Monk. What actually happens is spelled out in the class itself. For example, a Lawful Barbarian can't rage, but they can still use Uncanny Dodge. There's no general rule.

It's a bit different for PrCs, since you get into the whole issue of what happens when you lose a prereq for a PrC . . . but base classes have restrictions, not prereqs. There's a difference.

"A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.
Like a member of any other class, a monk may be a multiclass character, but multiclass monks face a special restriction. A monk who gains a new class or (if already multiclass) raises another class by a level may never again raise her monk level, though she retains all her monk abilities."

[sonofzeal]

I'm trying to make a character that's yo-yo-ing the alignment sheet to qualify for prestige classes(Among other things)

1)Is Atonement a catch-all for swinging alignment changes very quickly? (As in Exalted Monk-> Blackguard -> Paladin Level of running up and down the scale) or can I just change it and get Atonements for all the oathbreaking that will happen.

2)What's the easiest way to a particular spell unto your class list(Magic circle against Evil in this case) Preferably from a divine base.

3)For wizard spells what are the saving throws/SR/Touch AC I should expect to have to have to be safe form the spells that allow saves/make touch attacks.

4)Can a Marshall change his aura in response to a wizard casting a spell?
1) Atonement is pretty powerful, but a little vague. Talk to your DM.

2) Arcane Disciple (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Arcane_Disciple), with the Exorcism domain to get it as a lvl 2 spell. It's also in the Good domain as a lvl 3 spell.

3) There is no "safe" level. True Strike means that a Wizard who really wants to hit you with a touch attack is almost guaranteed to do so. That said... your saving throws should be at least your level and preferably 1.5x your level or higher, and you ideally want your touch AC as high as 20 + 0.5x your level. Neither of those is an absolute defense, but they'll make you unattractive targets for most effects.

4) Dismissing an aura is a free action, but raising a new one is a Swift action. Marshals can thus only change auras on their own turn, barring special exceptions. Note that there are extremely few options for gaining extra swift actions, and by definition swift takes place on your turn or else it'd be immediate.

[Dragonsoul]

1) I'm looking more for RAW here...

2)Hmmm, do I still need to need to be appropriate level? Because otherwise I may as well go Cleric 3....

3)True Strike only adds +20 to the roll, and I'm aiming to get 40+ Touch AC anyway(BTW what is the standard charger getting as a + to hit)

4)Damn, Quad dipping Charisma to saves isn't quiet as easy as I thought....

[sonofzeal]

1) I'm looking more for RAW here...

2)Hmmm, do I still need to need to be appropriate level? Because otherwise I may as well go Cleric 3....

3)True Strike only adds +20 to the roll, and I'm aiming to get 40+ Touch AC anyway(BTW what is the standard charger getting as a + to hit)

4)Damn, Quad dipping Charisma to saves isn't quiet as easy as I thought....
1) All the RAW is right there in the spell. I can't tell you more without knowing the exact details of what you want Atonement for. Note that you also need to find someone willing to cast it for you - an ex-Blackguard wanting to get his Exalted status back is going to have a rough time of it, unless the alignment change was magically induced.

2) You need to be able to cast spells of that level. So... a 3rd lvl Wizard with Arcane Disciple: Exorcism can add "Magic Circle Against Evil" to his spellbook. A 4th lvl Sorcerer could add it as one of his Spells Known.

3) .....well, good luck. If you're optimizing to that level, then you're probably next to immortal unless the rest of the group is also optimizing to that level... in which case it's usually easier to boost attacks than defences, so you're in a losing game there.

4) A-yup.

[Dragonsoul]

2)Could I use precious apprentice to get it at Wiz/sor1?

3)As Optomis-y as you can get with Vow of Poverty on your character sheet yes,

4) :smallsigh: A shall have to stick to triple dipping (Unless Divine Grace from different classes stacks-which the consensus seems to be it doesn't)

[Emperor Tippy]

3) The minimum save DC you can expect to see a level 20 caster throwing around is 30 (20 from levels, 10 from casting stat). For an optimized caster that can easily be pushed upwards of 40 (20 from levels, 14 from casting stat, 1 from ioun stone, 2 from spell focus/greater spell focus, 3 more from CL boosts of various types).

For touch AC, figure +40 (+10 from BAB, +10 from Dex, +20 from True Strike) if the caster actually wants to hit you.

SR should be at least equal to twice your for it to even be noticeably for the caster. So SR 40 at level 20. And even then it's no guarantee.

[Dragonsoul]

3)Thanks for that, though as you have demonstrated, Arbitrarily high saves and SR are no guarantee against a caster.(Although I did find an immunity to the "Gate thee to the Positive energy plane" trick, Risen Martyr gives you the deathless type which gives me the same clause that leads zombies shamble about)

[Hirax]

Could I come right out and ask what your goal is? Just an unkillable build? Any sort of theme?

[Dragonsoul]

Pretty much, rather than optimising for damage or stealth, I'm trying to make a a build that is as close to straight up unkillable as is possible, I'm using Vow of Poverty to get a load of bonuses that can't be disjuctioned (also as an example of the one time Vow of Poverty is good pick)

[sonofzeal]

In that case, you might want to consider Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle (preferably though not necessarily during one of your evil phases) to get Roll With It (Savage Species) as many times as you can spare. This is best done with dinky little racial feats, like Elven weapon proficiencies. You can easily get DR 20/- or more this way, and it stacks with other forms of DR. This helps against those annoying nat-20 autohits.

[Hirax]

The problem you're going to run into with VoP is it leaves you wide open to literal burial. Any spellcaster with time stop is going to forcecage and dimensional lock you, then literally bury you. There are alternatives and supplements to that combo, the point is you won't be able to avoid it with the constraints of VoP. Few, if any, non-casters, are going to be able to avoid it, in fact.

A safer, and also more versatile route, is 10 levels of incantatrix, and persisting a combination of buffs that make you unkillable. This gives you foresight, too, which prevents you from being surprised or flat footed.

[Emperor Tippy]

You don't actually keep VoP around, the only reason to ever take that feat is to Chaos Shuffle yourself an extra ten feats.

And Chaos Shuffle isn't evil, it's chaotic.

[sonofzeal]

You don't actually keep VoP around, the only reason to ever take that feat is to Chaos Shuffle yourself an extra ten feats.

And Chaos Shuffle isn't evil, it's chaotic.
I know, but given the flavour text I'd expect it to be at least a breach of etiquette for most Exalted characters. Certainly not a major obstacle, but if you're hopping alignments anyway it's best done on a non-Exalted phase.

[Emperor Tippy]

I know, but given the flavour text I'd expect it to be at least a breach of etiquette for most Exalted characters. Certainly not a major obstacle, but if you're hopping alignments anyway it's best done on a non-Exalted phase.
Well yes.

You want something nifty? With Consecrate Spell you can make anything good. Even Mind Rape. :smallwink:

[Hirax]

Purge the wickedness from their head!

[sonofzeal]

Purge the wickedness from their head!
Isn't that called "Sanctify The Wicked"? :smalltongue:

[Emperor Tippy]

Isn't that called "Sanctify The Wicked"? :smalltongue:

Nah, in this case wickedness is defined as any thought that the caster disagrees with. :smallwink:

[Psyren]

4) :smallsigh: A shall have to stick to triple dipping (Unless Divine Grace from different classes stacks-which the consensus seems to be it doesn't)

It won't, but you can stack it with similar abilities with different names (like Dark Blessing)

[Dragonsoul]

He buries me..that's nice Vop, means I don't breathe, and I take 1d6 nonlethel a minute-which I heal thanks to a graft, I can chaos shuffle, but I like nonmagical +20 to stats




I know, but given the flavour text I'd expect it to be at least a breach of etiquette for most Exalted characters. Certainly not a major obstacle, but if you're hopping alignments anyway it's best done on a non-Exalted phase.

but but feets if I don't get Vop at 1 I lose out on feets*(Actually how does it work if I'm breaking and unbreaking them like a politions promises)






*that's the joke

[Psyren]

Don't the Vows usually have a clause along the lines of "if you break this on purpose you're screwed, no not even atonement will work?"

[Hirax]

...but you're buried. You're alive, but defeated. You're a trophy. To be clear, once you're buried, the material is then turned into something which you can't dig out of. Such as the frostfell spell, from Frostburn, which turns all soil to everfrost and water to ice. No save, no SR, no attack roll, because it's an environmental effect. It's a nice quick and dirty method, but there are others.

Then any weakness you do have, they could spend an arbitrary amount of time creating the perfect mouse trap for you.

[Emperor Tippy]

Don't the Vows usually have a clause along the lines of "if you break this on purpose you're screwed, no not even atonement will work?"

Yes, they are practically impossible to actually use in play unless the DM is building the game around you. A few of them are better than others but they all suck.

It's why you trade them away and use the excess feats for other stuff that's actually useful.

[Hirax]

As a data point by the way, you can get +60 on touch attacks pretty easily with an incantatrix and persist shanenigans. Assume all of the following listed spells are persisted.

Shapechange into something with high dex. Let's say a chronotyryn from Fiend Folio for 21 dex. You could get higher, but chronotyrns are a kickass shapechange form all on their own regardless of their dex score, so it's a realistic example.
Necrotic empowerment grants a +8 enhancement bonus to dex (among other things, awesome spell), combine with a +5 inherent bonus for 34.
The luck domain (arcane disciple) is pretty awesome, and if you're an incantatrix it allows you to get alternating 48 hour buffs out of miracle of any divine spell of 8th level or lower. Let's say one of them is divine power. We're now at 32 with dex and BAB.
Mantle of the icy soul (Spell Comp.) and algid enhancement (Frostburn) get you a +1 enhancement bonus on all attack rolls (among other things), increasing by +1 every 3 caster levels. At 20th level, a persistomancer is going to be getting +10 out of this, minimum, due to CL boosters such as beads of karma, talismans of the 12 moons (need a high UMD check that's trivial at level 20), rings of arcane might, etc.

Now we're at +42, and we haven't done anything particularly out of the ordinary for a persistomancer, so for your level of optimization, you might consider this a real threat. Haste takes it to 43, another good persist candidate. I'm going to guess there are ways you could eke out another +7 for an even 50, there isn't a luck or sacred bonus anywhere in there yet, for instance, and heroics can also be persisted to grab any fighter bonus feat you qualify for. True strike can put another +20 on top of this, and a very determined enemy could take that to 25 with moment of prescience.

[Emmerask]

3) The minimum save DC you can expect to see a level 20 caster throwing around is 30 (20 from levels, 10 from casting stat). For an optimized caster that can easily be pushed upwards of 40 (20 from levels, 14 from casting stat, 1 from ioun stone, 2 from spell focus/greater spell focus, 3 more from CL boosts of various types).

Uhm it is a few months since I last played d&d but isn´t the save dc calculated by:
10 + level of spell + stat modifier + other stuff?

And only in spell resistance checks caster level is relevant ie
casterlevel + d20 + other stuff to overcome SR.

Though maybe my memory is even worse then I thought ^^

[Dragonsoul]

That touch thing is going to be tricky, the 40 to saves is trivial...got an classes that let me get need bonuses to my Touch AC I'm at 50 ATM so I still need a boost.(I really don't want to have to scrap Vow of Poverty as it just turns the wizard first turn into "disjunction"...any really cheap artifacts I can get, maybe a load of artifact arrows?)

[Hirax]

A 9th level spell has a DC of 19+ability mod. A level 1 gray elf could have 20 int. By level 20 they could be old for +2, have a +5 inherent bonus, are persisting necrotic empowerment for a +8 enhancement bonus (doesn't help cha. based casters, but there's probably a +8 for them out there somewhere else), and spent all 5 of their ability bumps from leveling on int. That puts them at 40, for a base save DC of 34. So shoot for at least +60 to saves. If you can somehow get access to spells from the destiny domain (Races of Destiny), choose destiny and warp destiny would effectively eliminate your chances of rolling a 1, too. Warp destiny also gives you your CL as a bonus to saves when you use it.

edit: the easiest boost to touch AC is the scintillating scales spell, which turns your natural armor bonus into a deflection bonus. Pairs incredibly with shapechange and necrotic empowerment (+8 enhancement bonus to AC), which can get you +30 easily. I know all these spells might not help you in VOP, but I figure the more you know.

[Emperor Tippy]

Uhm it is a few months since I last played d&d but isn´t the save dc calculated by:
10 + level of spell + stat modifier + other stuff?

And only in spell resistance checks caster level is relevant ie
casterlevel + d20 + other stuff to overcome SR.

Though maybe my memory is even worse then I thought ^^

Yeah, I had a stupid moment.

The number wasn't wrong, just how I went about calculating it.

10+9+~11 (stat)=30.

[Emmerask]

Yep the number seems about right, I was just very confused by the wording :smallsmile: