Am I figuring this up right? (3.5)

[killem2]

I'm trying to confirm what our elf fighter in our groups final stats are.

He is an elf
His stats are:

STR: 18
DEX: 20
CON: 14
INT: 16
WIS: 16
CHA: 13

He has taken the feats Two Weapon Fighting and Weapon Finesse and currently wield two Master work Rapiers.

If I totaled everything right, I think his Primary attack should be +3 and his off hand should be +0.

He disagrees and thinks it is higher.

Any clarification on this would be helpful.

[Telonius]

Assuming level 1 fighter?

Normal Attack: 5 (dex) + 1 (BAB) + 1 (MW) = 7

Off-hand weapon isn't light, but he has TWF, so penalties are -4/-4.

Two-weapon fighting: 5(dex) + 1 (BAB) + 1 (MW) - 4 (twf) = +3/+3

[killem2]

Thanks :) We're both wrong it looks like haha.

[Malachei]

Page 160 in the players' handbook. It would probably be better to wield a light weapon offhand (dagger etc.), as he'd only be -2/-2, and therefore total at +5 / +5.

Unless, of course, wielding two rapiers is essential to what he wants his character to be like.

[killem2]

Yeah its a personal preference. I mentioned using a shortsword or something but that's alright :P

[Malachei]

If it is a purely flavor thing, consider giving him the mechanics of a light weapon with the look of a rapier.

Basically, if somebody says "can I have my short sword to look like a rapier", I have no problem.

[Telonius]

You might want to steer him towards the Elven Lightblade and Elven Thinblade in Complete Warrior. Personally I houserule that any racial weapon is martial instead of exotic for that race; but Improved Weapon Familiarity (feat in CWar) would give you access to it anyway. Since he's a Fighter, he'll probably have more feats than he knows what to do with. It would give him a decent bump in attack.

Hope I get in before the rest of the readers on this - TWF builds are generally considered very underpowered, unless you can get a bonus source of damage (like sneak attack). The reason is that you have a hard time power attacking, therefore your damage is really limited. Fighters, likewise, are generally looked down upon on the boards, with Tome of Battle classes preferred. But - if he's set on having an elf TWF Fighter, this will probably help.

Any idea on where he wants to take the class eventually? (Prestige classes and such?)

[killem2]

He wants to turn to Order of the Bow Initiate? I think it is in complete warrior.

He wants to be a well rounded fighter. Ranged and Melee.

[Darrin]

If he wants to TWF with two rapiers, then point him towards the Oversize Two-Weapon Fighting feat in Complete Adventurer. This allows him to treat his off-hand rapier as "light" for the purposes of TWF penalties.


He wants to turn to Order of the Bow Initiate? I think it is in complete warrior.

He wants to be a well rounded fighter. Ranged and Melee.

Please, please, please advise him against this. Order of the Bow Initiate is a horrible PrC that doesn't offer anything that a straight Fighter 20 build can't do better (and straight Fighter 20 builds around here are typically reviled as horribly underpowered to begin with). The main feature of this PrC forces you to use a standard action to make a single ranged attack, and you get to add a few piddling d8's as bonus damage. He's much, much, much better off making his normal full-attack and adding damage some other way... sneak attack, skirmish damage, or energy damage via bow/ammo enhancements or spells.

Actually, the 3.0 version of Order of the Bow Initiate (in Sword & Fist) was somewhat more decent. Instead of Ranged Precision, it got Ranged Sneak Attack, but that could be applied to all of your ranged attacks for the round instead of one single attack. Only 30' range, though.

[Malachei]

Though I wouldn't say that a feat for going offhand with a rapier is a good trade.

From your other post, I know the group has a somebody (the rogue?) who wants to become a master thrower.

Perhaps, for the fighter, keeping a balance between melee and ranged combat would not require entering an archer Prestige Class.

[killem2]

I'll mention it, but we're a pretty heavy bunch of RP favoring folks :D.

[Krazzman]

RP > Mechanics, yes but. Yes there is a but. But he has to see, what does this prestige class grant me what levels in Fighter does not grant me? Or what swashbuckler doesn't grant me (a thing I would advice to take ;D since then melee would give a +3 bonus damage) maybe going duskblade would be a good idea?

Give him some better ideas. Like throw some gishing aspects into it. Elves are normally quite accustomed to magical powers. So a Wizard/Duskblade/Hexblade dip wouldn't be bad. Hexblade would be great to slay some casters and it gives Mettle.

Hope this helps.

[Amphetryon]

If he wants to use Rapiers, consider pointing out Dervish in Complete Warrior, at least. It's not an overpowering PrC by any means, but lines up his flavor choice decently with mechanics.

"Well-rounded" is a laudable goal, but it's not one that 3.5 rewards for non-casters very well at all.

[killem2]

I think it'll be best to let them do what they want. Sure optimization is a great thing, but can dull the edge sometimes. Maybe bringing a bunch of RPers into what normally would be a cake walk for optimized characters is just the right balance for a challenging encounter.

[Big Fau]

Actually, the 3.0 version of Order of the Bow Initiate (in Sword & Fist) was somewhat more decent. Instead of Ranged Precision, it got Ranged Sneak Attack, but that could be applied to all of your ranged attacks for the round instead of one single attack. Only 30' range, though.

Sneak Attack applies to all attacks you make if the target is flanked or flat-footed, not just the first. This is a common misconception.

[Zherog]

That's basically what Darrin said. He's pointing out that Order of the Bow Initiate specifically limits it to once per round. (Going off his post, as I don't recall specifics.)

[Flickerdart]

RP is great and all, but it's difficult to plausibly RP a great warrior when you get your butt kicked by every monster you meet. A little bit of mechanical competence is necessary to make the vast majority of roleplay possible.

[Eldariel]

Pretty sure he'd be happier if he just multiclassed Ranger/Fighter for the Archery-aspect. Lemmie tell you, nothing's worse than what happens once he realizes taking Order of the Bow Initiate is making him worse an Archery than straight Fighter. Not gonna stop him if he wants to head that road, of course, but OotBI makes players cry. Like, the players who take it. After they begin to think what would've happened had they not taken it.

This happened to me in my first 3.5 game where I took Arcane Archer for my Elf Two-Weapon Fighter 'cause it was an Elf-specific PRC and I HAD TO HAVE A PRC! (Fighter 6/Wizard 1/Arcane Archer like a boss). 5 levels later, little introspection and reading Wizard's spell list, and being in the same party with our Wizard 13 and Cleric 13 who finally realized save-offering spells were good, made me realize I had just shot myself in a foot with a shotgun. I did not like the image nor the idea.

I mean, Fighter is "master of a weapon" class anyways; a Fighter 20 can have the exact same fluff as Fighter 10/Order of the Bow Initiate 10 (since the Fighter is a Bow Master).

[nedz]

I'm sure Ranger would fit his concept better. Full BAB, a few spells and 6+ Skill points per level. If he was short on Feats then a 2 level Fighter dip would fix that.
I had a Ranger cohort once whom the DM forced into OBI.
I persuaded the DM to let me swap Multishot for Improved Rapid Shot.
At Ranger 6 OBI 5 he was much better firing 4 arrows a round (5 if hasted) than using his one arrow for +3d8 damage. Ranger 11 would have been far better. Mind you my main character was a Bard so he was usually buffed - buffs work better with more attacks.
OBI might work with Scout, but then Ranger works much better via swift hunter.

[Suichimo]

Pretty sure he'd be happier if he just multiclassed Ranger/Fighter for the Archery-aspect. Lemmie tell you, nothing's worse than what happens once he realizes taking Order of the Bow Initiate is making him worse an Archery than straight Fighter. Not gonna stop him if he wants to head that road, of course, but OotBI makes players cry. Like, the players who take it. After they begin to think what would've happened had they not taken it.

This happened to me in my first 3.5 game where I took Arcane Archer for my Elf Two-Weapon Fighter 'cause it was an Elf-specific PRC and I HAD TO HAVE A PRC! (Fighter 6/Wizard 1/Arcane Archer like a boss). 5 levels later, little introspection and reading Wizard's spell list, and being in the same party with our Wizard 13 and Cleric 13 who finally realized save-offering spells were good, made me realize I had just shot myself in a foot with a shotgun. I did not like the image nor the idea.

I mean, Fighter is "master of a weapon" class anyways; a Fighter 20 can have the exact same fluff as Fighter 10/Order of the Bow Initiate 10 (since the Fighter is a Bow Master).

Eh, once it happens, just have the page for retraining marked and ready to go and give him the option of a better life.

[killem2]

I talked to him, he is going to go full ranger for now. :) I think its a better choice with his stats anyway.

[Eldariel]

I talked to him, he is going to go full ranger for now. :) I think its a better choice with his stats anyway.

Great! I'm glad he isn't repeating my mistakes (well, he wasn't repeating all of them anyways; like an idiot, I used a Two-Bladed Sword burning yet another feat) - saves him smacking oneself in the forehead later :smallwink: One more thing you might want to suggest: that he puts his level-up points (4, 8, 12, 16, 20) in Strength and he's golden (this means his damage will actually keep up reasonably and he can use melee combat maneuvers like Tripping or Grappling too if he so desires). Obviously magic items to boost both stats.

This would also remove the need for Weapon Finesse, saving a feat (since he needs to pick up TWF chain with feats, he won't have too many open feats otherwise, even getting Archery feats from Ranger-class). And hell, see if he's interested in Wood Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf) (it's in the Monster Manual under "Elf") instead of standard Elf since that's more natural for Warrior Elves (Rangers in particular; hell, that's their Favored Class) and probably closer to his image of "Elf" anyways (since they're more woodey and naturey than High Elves who are more into arcane stuff).


I'll tell you, afterwards I wished I had gone Ranger. What Elf doesn't have Spot, Listen & co. as class skills anyways? That's just silly.

[nedz]

Is he still going Weapon Finesse ?
Thats only +1 to hit with melle with this elf.
He's short of feats already.

[killem2]

No he's starting over, using his stats going ranger.