"Druids are newbieproof" / "Wildshape is pwns"

[sonofzeal]

I hear a lot of claims on these boards, but one that runs most immediately counter to my experience is the idea that Druids are "intuitive" or "always powerful". Specifically, I often hear Wildshape being referred to as if it's the best thing since sliced THAC0. Druid handbooks routinely (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868802/Druid_Handbook_revived)use phrases like "Wild Shape-using druids are ... able to stand on the front line of the party." While there's some truth to that - it's an enormously useful ability that's only become more and more potent with the addition of sourcebooks - advice I see in Druid threads generally seems to boil down to "take Natural Spell and win the game".

Now there's also some truth to that, too. If you play your Druid like a Mage, then Dire Hawk form is a huge boon. But that's not how the boards assume Druid is played. These boards seem to assume that, even in core-only games, the Druid is wildshaping into a bear and biting faces off.

I've seen what happens when your average not-particularly-optimized Druid turns into a bear and tries to bite faces off: the Druid dies, brutally and repeatedly.

Wildshape forms generally have pathetic AC for their level. And the most intuitively "nature-y" and "druidic" core races, the High Elves and Wood Elves, both carry a Con penalty. I have seen about half a dozen new players, introduced to D&D for the first time, choose an Elven Druid as their first character. Nevermind that it doesn't work. Nevermind that Dwarf is a better choice in almost every way. People EXPECT it to work, and when confronted with rules as byzantine as Druid Wildshape, they go with instinct trained into them from various fantasy media. And before you object that Wildshape isn't that complicated, remember that it doesn't even list all its own conditions, instead referring to an already-complicated ability in a totally different book, but applying all sorts of exceptions on top of it. When you're still learning which dice to roll on skill checks, that's not something you'll be grokking any time soon. Heck, for the average casual player, that may not be something they'll ever grok in fullness.



But enough theory. Let's look at the sort of stats newbie players are likely to throw down for a starter Druid.

Vadania (http://web.archive.org/web/20060114183356/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/dnd/treacheryswake): Female half-elf Drd 5; Medium-size humanoid; HD 5d8+5; hp 28; Init +2; Spd 30 ft.; AC 20, touch 13, flat-footed 18; Atk +5 melee (1d6+1/18-20, scimitar), or +5 ranged (1d4, sling); SQ animal companion, nature sense, resist nature's lure, trackless step, wild shape 1/day, woodland stride; AL N; SV Fort 6, Ref +4, Will +8; Str 10, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 8.

Skills and Feats: Animal Empathy +7, Concentration +9, Handle Animal +7, Spellcraft +9, Wilderness Lore +11; Scribe Scroll, Weapon Focus (scimitar).

Possessions: +1 hide armor, +1 large wooden shield, +1 scimitar, sling, 10 sling bullets, ring of protection +1, cloak of resistance +1, backpack, waterskin, 1 day trail rations, bedroll, sack, flint and steel, holly and mistletoe, 3 sunrods, antitoxin, 1 tanglefoot bag, scroll of neutralize poison, scroll of remove disease, potion of invisibility, 2 potions of cure light wounds, scroll of barkskin, scroll of lesser restoration.

Yikes. Terrible, one might say. Bizarre, you might think. But authentic. These are indeed choices that someone made, intending to make a competent character but without actually grokking the class. These are the sort of choices newbies make. This, ladies and gentlemen, is what "un-optimized" means on a practical level.

And when someone says something like "even an un-optimized Druid kicks goblinoid buttocks"? This is what I think of.

This Druid is lvl 5. That's a nice basic level. Most games will start there or below, and many won't reach much above it either. It's also the level where Wildshape kicks in. So let's see what happens when she turns into a bear. I'm using Black Bear here as "bear" is almost invariably the default generic wildshape combat form mentioned, short of Fleshrakers, but let's keep this within core for now. And other bear forms don't open up for another three levels.

HD 5d8+5; hp 28; Init +2; Spd 30 ft.; AC 13, touch 11, flat-footed 12; Atk 2 claws +7 melee (1d4+4) and bite +2 melee (1d6+2); SQ animal companion, nature sense, resist nature's lure, trackless step, wild shape 1/day, woodland stride; AL N; SV Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +8; Str 19, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 8.

Three attacks a round is nice at this level, and the attack bonus is at least relevant. Her good friend Tordek is still making a single attack, albeit at +10. At lvl 5 a normal monster AC is about 18, so our Druid's damage on a full-attack is roughly comparable to our Fighter's.

But Tordek has 50% more hp, and an AC 10 higher. And Tordek is at the low point in his damage output, right before he gets his first iterative. Our unoptimized Fighter can move and still attack fully, but our Druid can't. She's chained down to full-attacking to get all those attacks in... just like a monk is.

But look at the AC/hp! If the Druid is ever in a position to get that full attack claw/claw/bite routine off, she's going to get torn to shreds. Even the Monk has considerably better AC. Even a similarly unoptimized Monk like Ember (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20000626e)would have an AC of about 16 by now. If our Druid moves and attacks, her average damage against normal CR encounters, after accounting for misses, is less than 3.5. But if she full-attacks, then she's wide open. A common Troll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm) has better than 70% odds of dropping her to negatives in a single round, and could easily put her straight from full health to -10 with some decent rolling.

A Troll would be guaranteed to survive the Druid for a few rounds even without regen, but could kill her in a single round. An Achaierai, with AC 20, could laugh off the Druid's attacks and also still kill her in a round. So could a Nightmare, Manticore, or most other CR 5 threats.

Without Wildling Clasps or significant prebuffs, a melee druid is a glass cannon - and more "glass" than "cannon" at that!

Her offence is comparable to an equal-level fighter, but her defence is significantly worse than even a Monk's.



Druids have spells. Spells are awesome. SNA is awesome. Animal Companions are awesome, especially at lvl 1-3. And Wildshape is useful and exploitable... but in Core or otherwise unoptimized games, do not mistake Druid for a viable front-line fighter. They can do terrifyingly well if you're loading your Venomfire'd Fleshraker up with half a dozen Wildling Clasps... but for the love of Pelor, please stop telling newbies that Wildshaping Druids kick arse in melee with little to no effort.

I've seen what happens when they try it. I have no desire to see it again. And people who come to us for advice deserve better.

[gbprime]

Wildshape is not power. Wildshape is the PATH to power. Important distinction. :smallcool:

[ericgrau]

Ya but his point is that druids aren't noob friendly. I've seen druids fail bad frequently as well. I've always known that their stats were fairly mediocre out-of-the-box, but since I don't make (and optimize) many druid characters I don't talk about it much since an optimized druid might be different. But for noobs, no question, what you are playing when you wildshape are two monsters of a CR significantly lower than your level. Damage is par and defenses are poor.

Other common traps I see recommended way too often include TWF rogues, core rangers in general, and pure blaster/shadow sorcerers. The first two are fragile and die, especially when poorly given tier advice makes people hate fighters and barbarians so much that the entire party in some particular gaming group has no front line. These later lead to posts asking desperately for help for dying characters / parties. The pure blaster sorc is a needless self-imposed nerf, though these particular forums have been getting better about proposing other options as well.

[Psyren]

Does casting Barkskin first really take that much op-fu though? Or Entangling half of the goblins while you and your wolf companion go after the other half? :smallconfused:

It's not really fair to take the entire board to task because a handful of people lack common sense either.

[Urpriest]

Wildshape is not power. Wildshape is the PATH to power. Important distinction. :smallcool:

Indeed. Consider: In order to use Wildshape, you have to first have read the errata for wildshape. This will direct you to the errata for alternate form, which you will have to read as well. In the end, to employ wild shape once, you have to be familiar with vast stretches of D&D mechanics and errata history (basically, almost everything in my Monster Handbook and then some). And by that point you're significantly more optimized than your fellows in a typical game.

[NOhara24]

I've seen what happens when they try it. I have no desire to see it again. And people who come to us for advice deserve better.

As soon as your experiences become what everyone else has experienced, everyone will change.

I could go on and on about what I've seen in games. Make a giant post quoting one specific build, and try to make an argument about how it changes everything. But the truth is this:

The build you pointed out is terribly optimized. Authentic, yes, but then so is every other Druid build that's even SLIGHTLY better than that, including the ones that include Natural Spell + Planar Shepard.

And the bottom line is that Druids ARE "newbieproof". Even while picking the WORST possible options for the Druid class, they can STILL be a viable member of the party, simply because their baseline power level is greater than that of any other class. A poorly-built Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric can't say that.

No one ever said Wildshape was game-breaking. However, it is and always will be a fantastic ability; especially because when you've taken a beating as a Dire Bear, just turn into a Dire Tiger and all your HP is magically returned to you, even if the fight just got started.

[Mr.Bookworm]

"Druids are newbieproof"

In my *checks* over four years?! Christ. Uh, where was I? Right, I have never heard this claim, ever, in my apparently four years now of playing D&D.

What I have heard is that Druids are easy to optimize for, which is, uh, totally true! I can do most of it in eight sentences.

1) Wild Shape is good, be in it 24/7.
2) As a hidden class feature at 6th level, the Druid gains Natural Spell as a bonus feat, but loses their usual feat choice.
3) Take a Fleshraker animal companion.
4) You have buffs. Allllllll the buffs. Use them.
5) Wildling Clasps are a thing that exists, use them.
6) AC boosters are good.
7) Wisdom first, Con second, everything else doesn't matter.
8) Go straight Druid, unless you are picking up Planar Shepard.

Now compare the ten page essay I need to write on spell choice and tactics to explain exactly how a Batman Wizard works.

You can screw up a Druid, true, but if you know the basics of optimization, a Druid is not hard to do.

[Eldan]

I can confirm that Druids aren't newbieproof.

Example? Myself. My second or third character ever?

Kobold Druid. Invested his feats in Two-weapon fighting, after he killed a drow scimitar-ranger (hey, our DM was new too) and took his weapons. Never wildshaped in combat, instead used his "fantastic" combat power, consisting of Weapon Finesse, TWF and Oversized TWF (to use drow weapons).

Two attacks per turn! 20 dexterity! Craaaaaaa-aaaazy.

My companion was a riding dog. You know, to ride on.

Why didn't I build him as a ranger, you ask? Because I wanted to be a druid, that's why!

[Violet Octopus]

And before you object that Wildshape isn't that complicated, remember that it doesn't even list all its own conditions, instead referring to an already-complicated ability in a totally different book, but applying all sorts of exceptions on top of it. When you're still learning which dice to roll on skill checks, that's not something you'll be grokking any time soon. Heck, for the average casual player, that may not be something they'll ever grok in fullness.
This, the added cross-referencing to make an animal companion, and the inevitable disappointment when their summons disappear after a round, is why I cringe whenever newbies want to play a druid. Thankfully Pathfinder and/or PHBII help with two of those problems.

Thanks for the combat stat analysis.

[NOhara24]

I can confirm that Druids aren't newbieproof.

Example? Myself. My second or third character ever?

Kobold Druid. Invested his feats in Two-weapon fighting, after he killed a drow scimitar-ranger (hey, our DM was new too) and took his weapons. Never wildshaped in combat, instead used his "fantastic" combat power, consisting of Weapon Finesse, TWF and Oversized TWF (to use drow weapons).

Two attacks per turn! 20 dexterity! Craaaaaaa-aaaazy.

My companion was a riding dog. You know, to ride on.

Why didn't I build him as a ranger, you ask? Because I wanted to be a druid, that's why!

That's unfair. If someone is going out of their way to avoid using their class skills, then they shouldn't be considered a part of that class at all. We can assume for the sake of the argument that someone is at least trying to use their class abilities, not be a mounted fighter with less bonus feats.

[ericgrau]

Behold ye and despair: Alternate Form Rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm)

The amount of knowledge to even figure out - merely as one example out of many - that fleshrakers are good is mind boggling. Let alone finding what book they're in and whether or not they're allowed as they're significantly better than any core options... which aren't as hot.

From what I've seen so far this issue is the rule rather than the exception in practice.

[Fax Celestis]

That's unfair. If someone is going out of their way to avoid using their class skills, then they shouldn't be considered a part of that class at all. We can assume for the sake of the argument that someone is at least trying to use their class abilities, not be a mounted fighter with less bonus feats.

Why? Actual players do that all the time.

[sonofzeal]

As soon as your experiences become what everyone else has experienced, everyone will change.

I could go on and on about what I've seen in games. Make a giant post quoting one specific build, and try to make an argument about how it changes everything.
It doesn't actually matter too much. Gear is irrelevant ones you Wildshape. So are most feats. So are most of your stats.

And Wildshape forms, by default, are fragile as heck.


No one ever said Wildshape was game-breaking. However, tt is and always will be a fantastic ability; especially because when you've taken a beating as a Dire Bear, just turn into a Dire Tiger and all your HP is magically returned to you.
I really don't think you understand how fragile animal forms are.

A Druid who can turn into a Dire Bear is at least lvl 12. Dire Bears have AC 17, and touch AC 10. Most equal-CR monsters literally cannot miss her except on a natural 1. The damage that Druid is going to take in a single round of front-lining is going to make the measly 12 hp healed from changing forms look like chump change.

[Novawurmson]

::raises hand::

My first character was an elf druid. I don't have his character sheet any more, but I remember I rolled really poorly and ended up having a penalty in Constitution. Also, the DM was new and didn't realize that most people give max HP first level. I think I had 3 HP starting out?

I also took a viper as an animal companion.

God knows what my feat was. It probably was Weapon Focus (Scimitar) or Stealthy or something.

On the other had, I'm in a campaign right now with a Druid quasi-optimized for archery (PBS, Precise Shot) and she's still the most useful member of the party 80% of the time.

[supermonkeyjoe]

I agree that for a newbie, druids aren't completely idiotproof. I've seen many druids ignore half of the class features for one reason or another, druids that never cast spells, druids that treat their animal companion like V treats blackwing, druids that don't like to wildshape. Druids have great strength in their versatility but this can be massively overwhelming for a new player.

There's also the fact that wildshape is confusing as hell for a newbie, they basically have to recalculate their entire character whenever they take on a new form.

And although druids have all these great spells, you still need the benefit of being familiar with the system to pick the good ones.

I certainly agree that druids are easy to make powerful if you have half an idea what you're doing but for a complete newbie? not by a long shot.

[NOhara24]

It doesn't actually matter too much. Gear is irrelevant ones you Wildshape.

False. Wilding Clasps would like a word.



So are most feats. So are most of your stats.

True, but at that point I've got a +23 to my grapple check. And I can still cast Arc Lightning. While I'm a bear.


And Wildshape forms, by default, are fragile as heck.

I really don't think you understand how fragile animal forms are.

A Druid who can turn into a Dire Bear is at least lvl 12. Dire Bears have AC 17, and touch AC 10. Most equal-CR monsters literally cannot miss her except on a natural 1. The damage that Druid is going to take in a single round of front-lining is going to make the measly 12 hp healed from changing forms look like chump change.

Now, don't forget that they also have 105 HP on average, and they also have a +23 to their grapple check. Their AC being low doesn't hinder them when they inevitably grapple whatever is in front of them. That's far from "fragile".

And IIRC, Druids regain all their HP from coming back from a wildshaped form.

[Gnaeus]

I really don't think you understand how fragile animal forms are.

A Druid who can turn into a Dire Bear is at least lvl 12. Dire Bears have AC 17, and touch AC 10. Most equal-CR monsters literally cannot miss her except on a natural 1. The damage that Druid is going to take in a single round of front-lining is going to make the measly 12 hp healed from changing forms look like chump change.

You know, there is a range between high optimization and aggressively anti-optimization. That druid is level 12. Why aren't you including Barkskin? Why aren't you including Wild armor? These aren't crazy broken tricks from a splatbook, they are simple ideas in core.

You know, your party fighter probably has ac 13 and touch ac 13 if he is too foolish to put on armor...


It doesn't actually matter too much. Gear is irrelevant ones you Wildshape. So are most feats. So are most of your stats.

Well, you got the part about the stats right. Did you miss where you can get wild armor? Or armor without the wild enhancement that your friends help you put on after you wildshape into a form for the next 5-12 hours? Even a low op guy, knowing he will be a bear, can take feats as useful as the fighters. Feats like Improved Grapple are core, not difficult to think of, and significantly useful.

[Dazed&Confused]

In the first time I read elves(that was in NWN, actually) I saw the favored class and deduced in D&D they were supposed to be wizards, not druids. Of course I kept a wtf-is-this-face for some time, but that was just before I read the MM and found the wood elves (don't know the right translation, it's the elf that gets dex and loses int, elfos da floresta in portuguese) that matched the stereotype I had in my head.

Physical stats dumping is kinda obvious too, but that depends on the level - as a level 1 druid I'd never think about later levels and dump physicals if I was a noob, that's true. However, my first 3.5 table char was a druid and I only had experience from NWN, and still he had str 10 dex 10 con 14, we were starting at level 7. I had no idea that the base con was used for hp though - I only had 14 con because I thought dispel magic could get rid of my wild shape haha. Same thing with str and dex, I didn't use 8s because I thought if I got dispelled I wouldn't be able to carry my gear properly. Later the DM found out about that, told me that wasn't right and even allowed me a remake - I was always saying I hated druids. Then I changed to a human Fighter/Barbarian, that's when my love for falchions started!

[Telonius]

What I have heard is that Druids are easy to optimize for, which is, uh, totally true! I can do most of it in eight sentences.

1) Wild Shape is good, be in it 24/7.
2) As a hidden class feature at 6th level, the Druid gains Natural Spell as a bonus feat, but loses their usual feat choice.
3) Take a Fleshraker animal companion.
4) You have buffs. Allllllll the buffs. Use them.
5) Wildling Clasps are a thing that exists, use them.
6) AC boosters are good.
7) Wisdom first, Con second, everything else doesn't matter.
8) Go straight Druid, unless you are picking up Planar Shepard.

Now compare the ten page essay I need to write on spell choice and tactics to explain exactly how a Batman Wizard works.

You can screw up a Druid, true, but if you know the basics of optimization, a Druid is not hard to do.

I think that a big problem with Druids is that, out of the can, it's much more likely that a new player will accidentally build a character much more powerful than the rest of the party, if everybody else is a newbie. Several of those choices are things that the game strongly nudges you towards doing, and an inexperienced DM might not realize it until it's already happened.

Even if your newbie Druid doesn't have a Fleshraker companion, they probably have a wolf or (at higher levels) a bear. Because, well, Druid; and Druids are supposed to have stuff like that, right? Those are pretty solid companions, capable of decent battlefield control.

Similar thing with Natural Spell. Looking over the feats, you're a Druid, and you see something with the word Natural in it. You might as well have labeled it "Organic Spell," because the crunchy-granola Druid is going to take it as soon as he can.

Meanwhile, the newbie Fighter has taken the Weapon Specialization tree; the newbie Cleric keeps preparing Heal spells; the newbie Wizard and Sorcerer are chucking Fireballs; the newbie Rogue has maxed out Appraise, Forgery, and Sleight of Hand; the newbie Barbarian has never heard the words "lion totem" uttered in the same sentence; and the newbie Monk is a Monk.

It's extremely unlikely that a newbie Druid will be the super-powered munchkin of death, the first time out. To do that, the player really would need to know the most powerful animal forms, and have access to wilding clasps, both of which are unlikely in a newbie game (especially at low levels). But more powerful than the rest of the party, without even really trying? I don't think that's too much of a stretch.

[Psyren]

You know, there is a range between high optimization and aggressively anti-optimization. That druid is level 12. Why aren't you including Barkskin? Why aren't you including Wild armor? These aren't crazy broken tricks from a splatbook, they are simple ideas in core.

You know, your party fighter probably has ac 13 and touch ac 13 if he is too foolish to put on armor...

This is my point exactly. Nobody is telling druids "Hey, you can be awesome naked and without buffs!" Nobody can do that, not even monks, and if someone is naive enough not to realize that they deserve whatever befalls them.



1) Wild Shape is good, be in it 24/7.
2) As a hidden class feature at 6th level, the Druid gains Natural Spell as a bonus feat, but loses their usual feat choice.
3) Take a Fleshraker animal companion.
4) You have buffs. Allllllll the buffs. Use them.
5) Wildling Clasps are a thing that exists, use them.
6) AC boosters are good.
7) Wisdom first, Con second, everything else doesn't matter.
8) Go straight Druid, unless you are picking up Planar Shepard.


Hell, you can drop (3) and (5)... even (2) and still be great at both magic and melee.

[ILM]

Bears are fun, but she's wildshaping in a 3HD form when she has access to 5HD like Lions and Dire Wolverines, both Core options. That strikes me as rather stupid, to the tune of where I'd expect a DM to step in and warn her that she may have better options.

There's a difference between un-optimized and self-destructive under-use of one's class abilities. This is akin to a level 5 wizard that doesn't use 3rd-level spells. A Black Bear compares rather well to a level 3 Tordek, which is kind of the point.

Newbie-proof may not be the right expression if you're looking at the kind of newbie who keeps rolling d20+Strength when you ask them for a Fort save (I got those at my table at the moment :smalltongue:) and who, even at level 5, will refuse to turn into anything else than a wolf because by golly, wolves are too cool for school. But to anyone who makes a decent effort of reading the rules - by which I don't mean poring through all books and supplements, but just reading and understanding one's class abilities - and who gets a basic grasp of power balances (such as: it's a generally bad idea to face level 5 encounters with 3HD forms), it's hard to screw up a druid.

In fact, that's another aspect of it: as long as you don't multiclass, it's hard to screw up a druid build. Sure, you can *not* tale Natural Spell and everyone here will boo and hiss, but ultimately you're still a full caster with the power to turn into giant squids when things don't go your way. You can play it far, far below its actual potential, but then so can Tordek if the player decides to sunder everything in sight without the right feats, and run around the battlefield attacking everyone, forgoing full attacks and collecting AoOs like they're next year's iPad.

[Tyndmyr]

I hear a lot of claims on these boards, but one that runs most immediately counter to my experience is the idea that Druids are "intuitive" or "always powerful". Specifically, I often hear Wildshape being referred to as if it's the best thing since sliced THAC0. Druid handbooks routinely (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868802/Druid_Handbook_revived)use phrases like "Wild Shape-using druids are ... able to stand on the front line of the party." While there's some truth to that - it's an enormously useful ability that's only become more and more potent with the addition of sourcebooks - advice I see in Druid threads generally seems to boil down to "take Natural Spell and win the game".

Now there's also some truth to that, too. If you play your Druid like a Mage, then Dire Hawk form is a huge boon. But that's not how the boards assume Druid is played. These boards seem to assume that, even in core-only games, the Druid is wildshaping into a bear and biting faces off.

Well, among newer players, yes. It very closely matches the normal playstyle I see of newer players. They want to be big, badass, and dishing out the damage.


I've seen what happens when your average not-particularly-optimized Druid turns into a bear and tries to bite faces off: the Druid dies, brutally and repeatedly.

That does NOT match my experience.


Wildshape forms generally have pathetic AC for their level. And the most intuitively "nature-y" and "druidic" core races, the High Elves and Wood Elves, both carry a Con penalty.

Look, their are core races, and phb races. Almost all new players end up using the phb instead of diving through the mm. Human is probably the most likely race. Elven is a possibility, but I've probably had as many human first time players as all other races put together.

First time players probably do have mediocre AC at best. They have some hp, though. They're not particularly bad off. The rogue is probably worse off on hp, and not a great deal better off on AC(likely worse off if flat footed).


I have seen about half a dozen new players, introduced to D&D for the first time, choose an Elven Druid as their first character. Nevermind that it doesn't work. Nevermind that Dwarf is a better choice in almost every way. People EXPECT it to work, and when confronted with rules as byzantine as Druid Wildshape, they go with instinct trained into them from various fantasy media. And before you object that Wildshape isn't that complicated, remember that it doesn't even list all its own conditions, instead referring to an already-complicated ability in a totally different book, but applying all sorts of exceptions on top of it. When you're still learning which dice to roll on skill checks, that's not something you'll be grokking any time soon. Heck, for the average casual player, that may not be something they'll ever grok in fullness.

They don't have to even deal with it till level five. Most brand new players tend to start at level 1. So, the bear up front clawing face is their animal companion. Five levels of learning is fine.


But enough theory. Let's look at the sort of stats newbie players are likely to throw down for a starter Druid.

Vadania (http://web.archive.org/web/20060114183356/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/dnd/treacheryswake): Female half-elf Drd 5; Medium-size humanoid; HD 5d8+5; hp 28; Init +2; Spd 30 ft.; AC 20, touch 13, flat-footed 18; Atk +5 melee (1d6+1/18-20, scimitar), or +5 ranged (1d4, sling); SQ animal companion, nature sense, resist nature's lure, trackless step, wild shape 1/day, woodland stride; AL N; SV Fort 6, Ref +4, Will +8; Str 10, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 8.

Skills and Feats: Animal Empathy +7, Concentration +9, Handle Animal +7, Spellcraft +9, Wilderness Lore +11; Scribe Scroll, Weapon Focus (scimitar).

Weapon Focus: Scimitar? Really? Look, they might choose something as poor as toughness, but the kind of druid who likes to claw people tends not to bother with weapons much.


Possessions: +1 hide armor, +1 large wooden shield, +1 scimitar, sling, 10 sling bullets, ring of protection +1, cloak of resistance +1, backpack, waterskin, 1 day trail rations, bedroll, sack, flint and steel, holly and mistletoe, 3 sunrods, antitoxin, 1 tanglefoot bag, scroll of neutralize poison, scroll of remove disease, potion of invisibility, 2 potions of cure light wounds, scroll of barkskin, scroll of lesser restoration.

Most newbies don't tend to have so many consumables around...but it's not a bad spread of options at all.


Yikes. Terrible, one might say. Bizarre, you might think. But authentic. These are indeed choices that someone made, intending to make a competent character but without actually grokking the class. These are the sort of choices newbies make. This, ladies and gentlemen, is what "un-optimized" means on a practical level.

Nah, this is what you get when someone is told "make a giant pile of example chars of all the classes". They probably had a deadline, then a bunch of other things to do.


And when someone says something like "even an un-optimized Druid kicks goblinoid buttocks"? This is what I think of.

This Druid is lvl 5. That's a nice basic level. Most games will start there or below, and many won't reach much above it either. It's also the level where Wildshape kicks in. So let's see what happens when she turns into a bear. I'm using Black Bear here as "bear" is almost invariably the default generic wildshape combat form mentioned, short of Fleshrakers, but let's keep this within core for now. And other bear forms don't open up for another three levels.

HD 5d8+5; hp 28; Init +2; Spd 30 ft.; AC 13, touch 11, flat-footed 12; Atk 2 claws +7 melee (1d4+4) and bite +2 melee (1d6+2); SQ animal companion, nature sense, resist nature's lure, trackless step, wild shape 1/day, woodland stride; AL N; SV Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +8; Str 19, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 8.

Three attacks a round is nice at this level, and the attack bonus is at least relevant. Her good friend Tordek is still making a single attack, albeit at +10. At lvl 5 a normal monster AC is about 18, so our Druid's damage on a full-attack is roughly comparable to our Fighter's.

Not at all, sir. Tordek (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20000626d), here at level 4(surely adding an odd level of fighter will not matter much), though he has better stats, he doesn't keep up.

He's using a dwarven waraxe, so only 1d10, so, +5 Bab, +1 Weapon Focus, +3 Strength. That's a mere +9 to attack, and when he does, he only deals 1d10+4. We can mostly disregard crits, as they are mostly irrelevant to both builds.

So, comparing against AC 18, tordek deals an average of 5.7 damage per standard "I hit them" turn.

So, comparing against AC 18, with the stats you gave, the druid deals an average of 7.6

Clearly, the druid is notably outperforming in damage, even before you consider the substantial damage boost from the animal companion! Total druid damage is likely about double Tordeks.

[quot]But Tordek has 50% more hp, and an AC 10 higher. And Tordek is at the low point in his damage output, right before he gets his first iterative. Our unoptimized Fighter can move and still attack fully, but our Druid can't. She's chained down to full-attacking to get all those attacks in... just like a monk is.[/quote]

Granted on the full attack. This is a transitory state, though. The fighter will be chained in the same manner from level six onward. Just like the monk is. It's a melee wide problem.

Also, Tordek's AC is only 22. So, that's only 9 higher. Still better, I grant you, but the druid's higher damage makes this less of a problem. As for the hp, shifting will heal her for 5 hp. This situationally helps the hp deficit.

Note that you're only getting the hp gap by comparing a dwarf to an elf, really. It's not the classes fault. With an equal build, they would only be about 5 hp apart...oh look, the self healing fixes that right up.


But look at the AC/hp! If the Druid is ever in a position to get that full attack claw/claw/bite routine off, she's going to get torn to shreds. Even the Monk has considerably better AC. Even a similarly unoptimized Monk like Ember (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20000626e)would have an AC of about 16 by now. If our Druid moves and attacks, her average damage against normal CR encounters, after accounting for misses, is less than 3.5. But if she full-attacks, then she's wide open. A common Troll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm) has better than 70% odds of dropping her to negatives in a single round, and could easily put her straight from full health to -10 with some decent rolling.

A troll is one of the harder monsters at this level. In addition, you'll note the troll only has AC 16, and thus, the druid is racking up higher than average damage. Played as part of a party, this means that the party using a druid front liner instead of a party using a fighter front liner is more likely to put the troll down faster. This is safer for all concerned.

Also, the troll does 20.05 damage on average to the druid you listed above, given a full attack routine. Since this average is notably lower than her hp, your estimate of a 70% chance of dropping her to negatives is wildly off. Even such a fairly terrible druid is heavily favored to withstand a full attack from this troll.

This is pre-rend, mind you...but the rend will only occur on a full attack in which both claws hit the same target. This is an encounter that is particularly weighted against low AC chars, and picking it as if it were average shows a great deal of bias.


A Troll would be guaranteed to survive the Druid for a few rounds even without regen, but could kill her in a single round. An Achaierai, with AC 20, could laugh off the Druid's attacks and also still kill her in a round. So could a Nightmare, Manticore, or most other CR 5 threats.

A CR 5 threat is intended as a challenge for the entire party, not solely for one char. A fighter also should not be soloing these encounters.


Without Wildling Clasps or significant prebuffs, a melee druid is a glass cannon - and more "glass" than "cannon" at that!

Her offence is comparable to an equal-level fighter, but her defence is significantly worse than even a Monk's.

As already noted, her offense is notably higher. She CAN self buff, and has little reason not to.

Let us calculate her damage, together with her animal companion, flanking the troll. Since you are assuming a bear druid, we will assume her animal companion is a black bear, since it's easily available, core, and fits her bear theme.

Target AC: 14
Druid Average Damage: 13.525
Animal Companion Average Damage: 12.5
Total: 26.25

Conclusion: The troll cannot afford to sit and trade full attacks with the druid. The druid is only one party member, and is dishing out well over a third of his hp in damage in a single full attack. If the rest of the party contributes moderately well, the troll will be downed in a single round. Therefore, the rending is not a problem.

The fighter will take less damage from the troll, but it will also inflict a LOT less damage. He also has less hp than Druid + animal companion, and thus, relies solely on his AC advantage to tank.

Note that the regeneration will basically negate the fighters damage contribution, and thus, the entire weight of downing it rests on the remainder of the party.


Druids have spells. Spells are awesome. SNA is awesome. Animal Companions are awesome, especially at lvl 1-3. And Wildshape is useful and exploitable... but in Core or otherwise unoptimized games, do not mistake Druid for a viable front-line fighter. They can do terrifyingly well if you're loading your Venomfire'd Fleshraker up with half a dozen Wildling Clasps... but for the love of Pelor, please stop telling newbies that Wildshaping Druids kick arse in melee with little to no effort.

I've seen what happens when they try it. I have no desire to see it again. And people who come to us for advice deserve better.

Look, if they're taking Weapon Focus(weapon I'm not using), then yes, they will suck more than they otherwise would.

The same would be true of the fighter.

[Dazed&Confused]

Hell, you can drop (3) and (5)... even (2) and still be great at both magic and melee.

(3) and (5) are going to be for sorta experienced players, but (2) is just too obvious. Heck, a feat that allows you to cast spells as an animal, from the player's handbook? The player needs to be too lazy or too stupid not to see this!

[Weezer]

Druids are really easy to mess up as a noob. My first character ever was a Druid, I used wild shape solely to sneak into places, had a wolf animal companion that died all the time and I used my spells for blasting on the rare occasion that I wasn't stabbing things on the frontline with my scimitar. I never used buffs, to my noobie eye they didn't seem worth it, why spend a spell slot on a seemingly negligible bonus to AC or strength when I could use the same slot to do some actual damage?

[Snowbluff]

Indeed. Consider: In order to use Wildshape, you have to first have read the errata for wildshape. This will direct you to the errata for alternate form, which you will have to read as well. In the end, to employ wild shape once, you have to be familiar with vast stretches of D&D mechanics and errata history (basically, almost everything in my Monster Handbook and then some). And by that point you're significantly more optimized than your fellows in a typical game.

Agreed. Learning how to play Druid for my friend's campaign lead to this.

I find it hard to die as a druid. Between my Wildclasp-shield, Greater Luminous Armor, and Barkskin, Fleshraker-me had plenty of ac to avoid most melee damage. Combined with the energy resistance and good saves, the DM figured this out pretty quickly. Then he found out my Fleshraker companion was running the same buffs, he threw a book at me.

Also, monsters suddenly stopped failing their saves.

[Amphetryon]

The first real newbie I saw with a Druid never once used the Wildshape forms for combat. Instead, she just used the form to become a small, innocuous-looking creature who hung back with the wagon and laid out 3 spells per combat (less if possible): a battlefield control spell of some sort, like Entangle; an SNA that had at least the same type of movement as the majority of enemies; a buff or healing spell for the party's glass cannon Rogue.

After 4 combats, she looked around and said something to the effect of "This feels a little like cheating. Everyone okay with this?"

[JoeYounger]

Now, don't forget that they also have 105 HP on average, and they also have a +23 to their grapple check. Their AC being low doesn't hinder them when they inevitably grapple whatever is in front of them. That's far from "fragile".

And IIRC, Druids regain all their HP from coming back from a wildshaped form.

When you wildshape the druid keeps his HP, he doesnt get the bears. His HP doesnt even go up from the increased con score.

And when he shifts form he gains hp as if he rested for a night, which is 1 hp / level.

[Tyndmyr]

Druids are really easy to mess up as a noob. My first character ever was a Druid, I used wild shape solely to sneak into places, had a wolf animal companion that died all the time and I used my spells for blasting on the rare occasion that I wasn't stabbing things on the frontline with my scimitar. I never used buffs, to my noobie eye they didn't seem worth it, why spend a spell slot on a seemingly negligible bonus to AC or strength when I could use the same slot to do some actual damage?

All classes are easy to mess up as a noob. Some are more easy.

Wizard is easier to mess up as a noob, because you have less hp out of the box. A blasty druid and a blasty wizard are both probably going to suck compared to what they COULD be....but a blasty druid at least has a chunk of meat with him to take hits. Oh sure, he might forget about it half the time, but still. And he has more hp to cushion his mistakes.

Nothing is 100% newbie-proof. Nothing. But Druid is pretty solidly leaning that way.

[NOhara24]

-Snip-



Well, thread's over guys. Tyndmyr wins. Let's all go home.

[Dazed&Confused]

The first real newbie I saw with a Druid never once used the Wildshape forms for combat. Instead, she just used the form to become a small, innocuous-looking creature who hung back with the wagon and laid out 3 spells per combat (less if possible): a battlefield control spell of some sort, like Entangle; an SNA that had at least the same type of movement as the majority of enemies; a buff or healing spell for the party's glass cannon Rogue.

That's exactly what I used to do on my first char, the only difference is that any animal I chose had to be able to fly. I've always been a coward ingame, lol

I didn't use much battlefield control though, was playing more as a blaster/healer/buffer, it was quite stupid. Maybe if I had used the real strength of dudus I'd have liked it more.

[Cieyrin]

False. Wilding Clasps would like a word.

Do you have any idea how much Wilding Clasps cost a piece? They're 4k for one. Also, in Core, they don't even exist, since they only showed up in Magic of Faerun, followed by the MIC. Not to mention you can't really afford much of anything to attach them to on ECL 5 WBL, as you have a Periapt of Wisdom and a Wild Clasp and you're done. It's not even really viable to Clasp everything till the midlevels so you can keep your Cloak or Vest of Resistance, get yourself some Wild Armor, some alternate slot Amulet of Health, since your Periapt already has your throat slot. So no, Clasps aren't the end all, be all of druid problems.


And IIRC, Druids regain all their HP from coming back from a wildshaped form.

No, they don't.


Each time you use wild shape, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#naturalHealing)

Congrats, you healed 5 hit points when you wild shaped!

[jiriku]

And when someone says something like "even an un-optimized Druid kicks goblinoid buttocks"? This is what I think of.

A common Troll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm) has better than 70% odds of dropping her to negatives in a single round, and could easily put her straight from full health to -10 with some decent rolling.

This is a false comparison. A troll is a CR5 monster (and good for the CR), and one that's using all of its resources when pressed into melee combat. Vadania, as a druid 5, using all of her resources to solo a CR5 monster, should be expected to die 50% of the time despite her best efforts. Assuming that she uses neither spells nor skills nor animal companion, but merely attempts to fight on the strength of her wild shape alone, is comparing the troll is at its best and the druid at her worst.

I could just as easily counter with an example of the standard "unoptimized" party versus 4 1st-level orc warriors. 4 orcs is also a CR 5 encounter, and in this sort of encounter, Vadania in bear form, with her wolf, will make quick work of one or two orcs while the rest of the party polishes off the others.

Or consider three goblins mounted on worgs (EL 5), or an ettercap with two Medium monstrous spiders (EL 5), or a ghast with two ghouls (EL 5), or a pair of ogres (EL 5), or a gang of three bugbears (EL 5). In every situation, Vadania, despite her "unoptimized" build, can easily contribute to the encounter with spell, companion, and wild shape.


I think that a big problem with Druids is that, out of the can, it's much more likely that a new player will accidentally build a character much more powerful than the rest of the party, if everybody else is a newbie.

It's extremely unlikely that a newbie Druid will be the super-powered munchkin of death, the first time out. To do that, the player really would need to know the most powerful animal forms, and have access to wilding clasps, both of which are unlikely in a newbie game (especially at low levels). But more powerful than the rest of the party, without even really trying? I don't think that's too much of a stretch.

This is a more realistic assessment. Any class can be played far below its potential by a new player. But a druid player can just stumble around, trying stuff at random to see what works, and can very quickly find powerful, effective combos.

A few years back, a new player joined my group who had no prior roleplaying experience. It was a tough learning curve for him because the group was already at 6th level, but he figured out that he wanted Natural Spell all by himself, picked up a companion, and started contributing right away. He wasted some time tooling around with trap spells like call lightning and such, but stumbled into some powerful combos and discovered how to use wild shape to heal himself and improve his AC (yes, improve). By 9th level, he was the strongest character in the party, and by 12th, he had to hold back to keep from overshadowing other characters.

Newbies can die with any class. But they can pwn pretty hard with a druid.

[Eldariel]

Basically, we can sum this thread up to: 3.5 massively rewards system mastery no matter what. Even in Core, every class has a rather huge power scale from "optimized" to "weak". Newbies will generally end in the "weak" end of the spectrum simply because they don't know the ins and outs and the system itself is very unintuitive in many ways (many classic archetypes, such as healing-focused Clerics and Fighters in general, are just weak - and the best fighting style is probably the least impressive up-front, Two-Handing).

Druid is easy to mess up, especially on lower levels. The importance of Constitution and the relative unimportance of the other physical stats isn't visible immediately. Indeed, newbies usually undervalue Con and whereas experienced players invariably try for 14+ Con, it's a common dumpstat for relatively new players who don't understand how HP-starved all classes are by default.


It does not help that Druid is a class that has lots of options. This offers them a lot of potential power, yes, but also enables screwing up on a lot of fronts. Getting just some of it remotely right makes you rather strong but not strong enough to reliably kill people in the face; Druids may be good in melee but melee in general is a risky proposition unless you're swimming in gold and Druid gets a lot better with a little work on that front. For instance, the fact that level 5 you should cast split Greater Magic Fang across all your natural weapons and you do want Barkskin running in combat is something one has to figure out, despite it being something you'd consider trivial (since it's right there in the spell descriptions).

Also, the best Core combat forms on these levels are a tad obscure; Deinonychus and Leopard aren't probably peoples' first instincts on a Druid (and Deinonychus in particular is clearly stronger than the alternatives, with Pounce, solid 3 attacks at decent bonuses and damage, and good speed & AC). Only at level 8 do the natural Wildshape options (Dire Wolf, Tiger, Brown Bear, etc.) begin to rock the roost.

And those do suffer of inherently low AC values which can be problematic since getting miss chance on a Druid is somewhat difficult to come by and Druids aren't like to one-shot creatures in melee; if you're under-WBLd enough to be unable to afford Wild Armor by that juncture (and if the campaign somehow doesn't have any material that enables Druids to wear heavy armor without losing their powers; the default alternative in Core is Dragonhide but if that doesn't exist and the DM didn't create a replacement, Hide Armor is still only +5), you'll probably have to make do with everyone hitting you (though to be fair, so will everybody else since AC is practically fully wealth-based; just +1 Fullplate and +1 Heavy Steel Shield isn't getting anyone very far on level 8).

And yet in Core, Wild Armor (and eventual Wild Shield) is borderline necessary for high Armor Class for Druids intending to melee against multiple opponents (against single opponents, things like Tripping and Grapple even the playground a tad and most Large Wildshape forms excel at such tasks) if your DM houserules putting items on after wildshaping (for Monk's Belt which gives you a real nice AC curve for most levels) away.

EDIT: Oh, and I'd count Wild Elves as the most Druidey Elf-race out of Core. While not optimal, they don't have the crippling Con penalty.

[Psyren]

Well, thread's over guys. Tyndmyr wins. Let's all go home.

I'm inclined to agree (though more for the post immediately above yours.)

[NOhara24]

Do you have any idea how much Wilding Clasps cost a piece? They're 4k for one. Also, in Core, they don't even exist, since they only showed up in Magic of Faerun, followed by the MIC. Not to mention you can't really afford much of anything to attach them to on ECL 5 WBL, as you have a Periapt of Wisdom and a Wild Clasp and you're done. It's not even really viable to Clasp everything till the midlevels so you can keep your Cloak or Vest of Resistance, get yourself some Wild Armor, some alternate slot Amulet of Health, since your Periapt already has your throat slot. So no, Clasps aren't the end all, be all of druid problems.



No, they don't.



Congrats, you healed 5 hit points when you wild shaped!

Um, thanks, guy. I wish I could be as polite as you're being right now when I'm correcting someone who doesn't have a sourcebook in front of them.

Between that and someone has already steered me in the right direction while maintaining a decent tone. Thanks, though.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Like many watches which say "water proof," the claim needs slight tweaking. Druids are newbie resistant. If you delve into hyper low optimization, where you totally ignore your class features and abilities (instead taking "authentic" options, whatever that means), no class survives. Don't even dare compare the druid to a barbarian with a two handed weapon and power attack. Compare it to an einhander barbarian with 10 con who never rages and puts all his feats into stuff like "Persuasive." No, no intimidate shenanigans either. Hey, the Druid comes out looking pretty well in that picture once again.

Edit: And yes, I've seen that character in play. Some serious stormwinding going on there.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I would also like to point out that sending a Troll up against a Druid, half of whose low-level spells generally involve either the word 'fire' or 'flame' or 'flaming'... isn't as likely to win as you might think.

Also, with Soften Earth and Stone and Entangle on your Core spell list... it's rather doubtful that said troll is even going to get into melee range with a Druid before being locked down and a Flaming Sphere is set upon his head until he dies.

[JaronK]

I've definitely seen newbies go insane with the Druid, mostly because they found the "D" section of the Monster Manual and then realized that all good Druid forms were to be found in "D" sections in general. Dire animals and dinosaurs, what more do you need? Admittedly, they rarely found the Legendary animals this way, but for the most part it was plenty to overpower them in a low optimization game.

This doesn't mean they'd do great in a high optimization game... only a game where everybody was equally inexperienced. Turning into a Dire Animal or Dinosaur makes you a LOT stronger than a basic "I'M WIELDING TWO BIG SWORDS" Fighter.

JaronK

[Tyndmyr]

Druid is easy to mess up, especially on lower levels. The importance of Constitution and the relative unimportance of the other physical stats isn't visible immediately. Indeed, newbies usually undervalue Con and whereas experienced players invariably try for 14+ Con, it's a common dumpstat for relatively new players who don't understand how HP-starved all classes are by default.

Most newbies are given at least a brief description of the stats from what I've seen. They're usually incomplete, but it's very rare to see someone describe con as something other than "it gives you more hit points". Now, unless that newbie has never so much as seen a video game in his life, they go "ooh, I want that".

Now, if you're such a newbie that you're assigning stats entirely at random without understanding what you're doing...I suppose you could end up with say, an 8 con.

But a brand new, clueless wizard with 8 con is pretty screwed too. The first time anything hits him, he's done.

[Eldariel]

Most newbies are given at least a brief description of the stats from what I've seen. They're usually incomplete, but it's very rare to see someone describe con as something other than "it gives you more hit points". Now, unless that newbie has never so much as seen a video game in his life, they go "ooh, I want that".

Well, I've seen lots of "+1 per level? I get d8 from my class! That's useless." or "That's a stat for melee classes only; after all, they take the damage!" or "Con doesn't feel like a Wizard stat, gonna put 10 in there" or "Barbarian gets enough HP from the HD!" or something of the sort.

For whatever reason it often takes someone saying "Don't. Get. Under. 14. Con" (or explanation that most of your lategame HP comes from Con and characters with low Con are supersquishy) to drive the point home; it's apparently kinda hard to assess how much damage increases as levels increase (when the system intrinsically doesn't increase the damage you deal with attacks as you level up), and people rely on stuff like AC and saves too much on that front.

[DiBastet]

Nothing is 100% newbie-proof. Nothing. But Druid is pretty solidly leaning that way.

My gf plays with me. She began with D&D, it's been five years and two months that she plays, and we play every single weekend, nonstop. I can say that now she has enough experience to look at her very first character and facepalm, because she made a druida exactly like the one in the post.

The difference is that she wanted to be an archer, took point blank shot and create potion, had a wolf animal companion and would turn into a wolf instead of a bear. She was more on the side of spellcaster than face-bitter. The idea was mostly buff the spear Fighter and use some cure wounds spells...

Now we understand how much of a dead weight she was. Druid is not auto-win. It's easier to win, but not auto.

[Tyndmyr]

Well, I've seen lots of "+1 per level? I get d8 from my class! That's useless." or "That's a stat for melee classes only; after all, they take the damage!" or "Con doesn't feel like a Wizard stat, gonna put 10 in there" or "Barbarian gets enough HP from the HD!" or something of the sort.

For whatever reason it often takes someone saying "Don't. Get. Under. 14. Con" (or explanation that most of your lategame HP comes from Con and characters with low Con are supersquishy) to drive the point home; it's apparently kinda hard to assess how much damage increases as levels increase (when the system intrinsically doesn't increase the damage you deal with attacks as you level up), and people rely on stuff like AC and saves too much on that front.

Huh. Never seen that. However, I HAVE seen people rely on AC over-much when new. Even if they're a caster, they tend to think of incoming damage as melee attacks and overvalue armor.

Stat drain or level drain is probably the last things on their mind, granted, but you'd think the guy who casts fireball constantly would consider that others can probably do so too.

[Gnaeus]

The difference is that she wanted to be an archer, took point blank shot and create potion, had a wolf animal companion and would turn into a wolf instead of a bear. She was more on the side of spellcaster than face-bitter. The idea was mostly buff the spear Fighter and use some cure wounds spells...


So...Wolf animal companion. Not the best, but not useless. Probably as good as the spear fighter at level 1.

Archer... Again not the best, but if her stats and feats supported it, she probably contributed to combat.

Brew Potions... Yes there are better feats, but this one is decent for utility.

Buffer and healer.... I'm sensing a pattern. Could do better.

For a low level character, a lady firing arrows in combat with a wolf pet and casting heal spells between combats who makes potions for her allies on her days off sounds very viable. I might make some suggestions on how to improve, but I wouldn't kick that out of a group.

[Psyren]

Now we understand how much of a dead weight she was. Druid is not auto-win. It's easier to win, but not auto.

The point is that nothing is auto-win. Even Pun-Pun takes work.

[some guy]

One player of mine stopped playing a druid because she felt she didn't contribute to battles. Truth is, she wasn't. Her feats were all over the place (I had a hard time convincing her to take natural spell). She rarely wild shaped, het companion was quite unusable (an elk), only in the end she'd used her spells more often.
They might be a terrible class for newbies because they just have too many options. Not everyone is into researching all that. Granted, they're very easy to optimise. A newbie who is interested in rules/has an natural feel for rules will have a easy time mastering the druid.

When I played a druid, I learned it was a terrible idea for me to be in the frontline, wildshaped. I would pounce, I would do some damage and the next round I would have to run away because I'd have 3-5 hp left. Much of this would have been solved by magic items/ buffs.
Magic items are quite DM/campaign specific and can't always be relied on. Creating your own items costs time, which is also campaign specific. Buffs are a bit of a problem when you've already given the rest of the group buffs and you already had 2 encounters that day.
I've had one half-good wildshaped melee in which I grappled a caster type. That was great. Until I ran away under a fear effect.
Wildshaped melee can be great, but it's just too specific on the game in which you're playing.

[Gnaeus]

Wildshaped melee can be great, but it's just too specific on the game in which you're playing.

Fixed that for you. The same thing could be said for any melee. In a game where your chain tripper can't find/make/buy a magical spiked chain, yeah, its gonna suck for him. If the charger can't find/make/buy a flight item, he's not going to be contributing to a lot of fights.

Druids are less dependent on getting the right toys than most classes, not more dependent.

And if the reason you arent entering melee is because you just buffed your team...Congratulations! You are contributing! Just because the damage you are dealing happens to occur on the fighter's turn, doesn't mean you aren't helping the party.

[JoeYounger]

And if the reason you arent entering melee is because you just buffed your team...Congratulations! You are contributing! Just because the damage you are dealing happens to occur on the fighter's turn, doesn't mean you aren't helping the party.

These are wise words~!

[Gavinfoxx]

As I posted in another thread, the basics of being awesome with a druid are pretty simple. Lots of newbies have a pretty decent chance of stumbling on a lot of these. Okay, I edited it a little:

1.) Your primary stat is Wis, your secondary stat is Con. Never take any race that lowers Con.
2.) Wildshape into big battle creatures, ideally BEFORE the fight starts -- in fact, by level 8, you never have to be OUT of Wild Shape. Always upgrade your combat forms to the biggest and best thing you can. Generally this will be an animal.
3.) Make sure to get Natural Spell at level 6
4.) Always upgrade your animal companion to the next big awesome mean creature that you can, as soon as you can, and use it in melee.
5.) Make sure you have a way to communicate while in Wild Shape. This is how you manage to stay in wild shape. The core item that can do this is Medallion of Thought Projection, though MIC has Pearls of Spech.
6.) Your best spells are long duration buff spells, summoning spells, and battlefield control spells, with the ability to do a few blasts if the situation absolutely calls for it. Try not to spend more than the first, MAYBE the second round of combat on spellcasting if you are focusing on being a melee monster. You can also focus on being a small, innocuous, generally flying animal, and cast spells that the enemies don't know where they came from. If you are a combat brute though, first round should be a battlefield control spell or a summon. Make sure you have buffs up BEFORE combat starts -- with long duration ones, this should be easy.
7.) Seek ways to use your items while in wildshape -- either taking them off and putting them on after you shape, wilding clasps, wild armor, custom items, or whatever.
8.) Never trade away your spellcasting, animal companion, or wild shape -- if you take a prestige class, make sure it fully advances all three (only one prestige class generally does this). Yes, this means that you will generally stay in Druid for all of your levels.

[Coidzor]

Vadania is one of the archetypes that the designers came up with. She's going to be worse than what someone new to D&D and who came in without their prior edition biases would do in a vacuum.

[Fax Celestis]

RE: Buffing

Mark Hall said a while back (I think it's been pruned by now) that, when he played a bard, he added every point of damage inflicted by his inspire courage to a pool, just to keep track of it. When his inspire courage meant the difference between hitting and missing, he added all the damage to his tally.

For people reticent to play buffers, have them do this for a combat or two and see just how quickly the bonus damage adds up.

[Eldan]

That's unfair. If someone is going out of their way to avoid using their class skills, then they shouldn't be considered a part of that class at all. We can assume for the sake of the argument that someone is at least trying to use their class abilities, not be a mounted fighter with less bonus feats.

I did also cast cure spells quite often, talk to animals, and turn into a bird for scouting.

Furthermore: it takes you up to level 5 to get Wild Shape. With us, playing a session every two weeks on average when we were back in school, that was half a year of play time. I didn't want half a year to fight, so I grabbed a scimitar and specialized in it. Level 5 was months away, and I hadn't even read the wild shape rules yet. I used weapons because that was the only damage option I saw, since I didn't have any blasting spells as good as the sorcerers. Of course, combat=damage, so I didn't even really consider battlefield control.

[sonofzeal]

False. Wilding Clasps would like a word.
Yes. But Wildling Clasps are necessary to make the Druid survivable in melee, and these boards seem to forget that. They're also not something your average casual player even knows exists. They're far too likely to pull their gear straight from the DMG/SRD. I'd hazard that only a small minority of groups actually have an MIC hardcopy - and even if they do, they likely wouldn't go looking for it until someone told them about it.

Heck, I didn't find them until someone told me about them.

But yes, Wildling Clasps make the difference. IF someone is using them.


Now, don't forget that they also have 105 HP on average, and they also have a +23 to their grapple check. Their AC being low doesn't hinder them when they inevitably grapple whatever is in front of them. That's far from "fragile".
Try "66 hp"... so yes, fragile.


And IIRC, Druids regain all their HP from coming back from a wildshaped form.
(edit - ninja'd)


Vadania is one of the archetypes that the designers came up with. She's going to be worse than what someone new to D&D and who came in without their prior edition biases would do in a vacuum.
Actually, she's better. Or at least average. For a Core Druid, the only thing out of that analysis that really changes is Con... and like I said, many newbie Druids I've seen have worse than 13 Con. Most feats become irrelevant, so her terrible selection doesn't actually hurt here. All gear becomes irrelevant, so her mediocre selection doesn't hurt her.

A totally normal casual Druid is fragile as heck in Wildshape. The highest AC for Core animals is a measly 18. That's pathetic at even mid levels. Even if our sample Druid put her 2nd highest stat in Con, like optimizers say, she's still regularly dropping in a single round against equal-level encounters she gets into melee with.

That's the whole point - Wildshape is far more fragile than most of us seem to remember. You have to use some method of getting around its no-items caveat before it becomes useful in front-line fighting. And yes, there's some standard ways of doing that, but you have to actually know them and use them.

All I'm asking is that, when advising newbies, please mention that and don't simply say pat answers like "take Natural Spell and win the game".

[Ernir]

I've given a druid to a (relative) newbie. He played a Cleric from 1-7, then he died, and rerolled a Druid, so it was his second character. He took core feats (Natural Spell + Augment Summoning, obvious), core spells, core equipment (nothing relevant aside from Wild armor), a core animal companion (a wolf), and selected his wild shape forms by asking "hey, can I turn into a bear/bird/stuff?". And of course it was an elf.

In the first battle, he transformed into the obvious form that is Brown Bear, and kicked ass along with his Wolf companion. He didn't have the HP or the Leap Attacks of the Barbarian, but he still had nontrivial damage output, and a higher AC. It also helped that he wasn't one "roll a Will save" away from being a liability.

And he just continued holding his own until he eventually discovered the SpC, at which point he became the most powerful member of the party (Wizard included). And when he realized that he can cast spells before entering battle, he got scary.

He didn't troll the splatbooks for options in his free time, he didn't have a group of more experienced players telling him what to pick, and he didn't take advice from the internet (until two years later, anyway). He just played with what was right in front of him.

Point being. If this thread is supposed to be about what actual newbies do with actual Druids, well, my experience is that they rock pretty damn hard.

[Eldan]

It depends a lot of the newbie, I guess, and the group.

Want to know a secret? My healbot/TWF kobold druid was actually a pretty good character, in that party. The other two characters were a half-dragon blaster sorcerer (a template? OP!) and a human monk. The monk dealt the most damage, the sorcerer used mainly magic missile and levitate, later fireball and fly, and I was the skill monkey, scout, healer and secondary fighter all in one.

To us, all those choices made sense. The sorcerer had dragonblood, so of course he became a half-dragon later in the game via homebrew ritual. It also gave him a breath weapon that let him deal damage! The monk kicked ass in combat, as we mostly fought hordes of mooks that we couldn't all kill with spells since they were too many (if we fought at all), and he could go on forever against things that couldn't hit him.

[sonofzeal]

This is a false comparison. A troll is a CR5 monster (and good for the CR), and one that's using all of its resources when pressed into melee combat. Vadania, as a druid 5, using all of her resources to solo a CR5 monster, should be expected to die 50% of the time despite her best efforts. Assuming that she uses neither spells nor skills nor animal companion, but merely attempts to fight on the strength of her wild shape alone, is comparing the troll is at its best and the druid at her worst.
Er... just about any CR 5 monster can kill the Druid in a single round of melee, with high probability. It's not unique to the Troll.

So yes, if the Druid is avoiding melee entirely, she's fine. Please, tell newbies that! Druids are great at Battlefield Control, and they make competent buffers/healers, and they've got a lot of utility. All those are safe things for newbies to try their hand at.

But as soon as they wildshape and go to bite face? They die faster than monks do.


I could just as easily counter with an example of the standard "unoptimized" party versus 4 1st-level orc warriors. 4 orcs is also a CR 5 encounter, and in this sort of encounter, Vadania in bear form, with her wolf, will make quick work of one or two orcs while the rest of the party polishes off the others.

Or consider three goblins mounted on worgs (EL 5), or an ettercap with two Medium monstrous spiders (EL 5), or a ghast with two ghouls (EL 5), or a pair of ogres (EL 5), or a gang of three bugbears (EL 5). In every situation, Vadania, despite her "unoptimized" build, can easily contribute to the encounter with spell, companion, and wild shape.\
Umm.... I think you've got your CR calculations wrong.

Four Orc Warriors is an EL 2 encounter. That's trivially easy for a 5th lvl party. TWELVE of them makes it EL 5. Each has a 60% chance to hit our Druid for an average of 9 damage - even without crits, and they'll get a lot of them with their Falchions. The Fighter's fine, they only hit him maybe 10% of the time and won't confirm their crits, but the Druid could easily die in that encounter if she's in bear form.

If the Druid is trying her hardest to avoid melee, and focusing on BC and buffs, she could do fine. But front-lining against that weight of offence is almost suicidal. If even three or four of them land hits, she's gone. And unless someone else is pulling a superb job of BC, or the DM is pulling her punches, I'd say taking three or four attacks is optimistic.

If the orcs get the initiative, they can swarm the front lines of the party - again the Fighter's probably okay, and the mages are probably hiding out back so they'll probably survive, but if the Druid's in bear form and thinks that makes them a front-line fighter, they could easily die before they get an attack off.

If the heroes get the initiative... well, it depends on the party and what they're throwing out. The Fighter can move up and kill one, the Rogue can slink off to get ready for flanking later, but who knows about the Cleric and Wizard. But if the Druid moves up, she's got only medium odds of even hitting one on a single attack... and then quite possibly dies the next round as the remaining 6-10 counter against her and the Fighter.

Either way, frontlining = death, or at least a significant risk of it.




This is a more realistic assessment. Any class can be played far below its potential by a new player. But a druid player can just stumble around, trying stuff at random to see what works, and can very quickly find powerful, effective combos.

A few years back, a new player joined my group who had no prior roleplaying experience. It was a tough learning curve for him because the group was already at 6th level, but he figured out that he wanted Natural Spell all by himself, picked up a companion, and started contributing right away. He wasted some time tooling around with trap spells like call lightning and such, but stumbled into some powerful combos and discovered how to use wild shape to heal himself and improve his AC (yes, improve). By 9th level, he was the strongest character in the party, and by 12th, he had to hold back to keep from overshadowing other characters.

Newbies can die with any class. But they can pwn pretty hard with a druid.
Indeed they can.

But Wildshaping and biting face? That gets them killed before they have a chance to figure that stuff out.

That's all I'm saying.

[sonofzeal]

I've given a druid to a (relative) newbie. He played a Cleric from 1-7, then he died, and rerolled a Druid, so it was his second character. He took core feats (Natural Spell + Augment Summoning, obvious), core spells, core equipment (nothing relevant aside from Wild armor), a core animal companion (a wolf), and selected his wild shape forms by asking "hey, can I turn into a bear/bird/stuff?". And of course it was an elf.

In the first battle, he transformed into the obvious form that is Brown Bear, and kicked ass along with his Wolf companion. He didn't have the HP or the Leap Attacks of the Barbarian, but he still had nontrivial damage output, and a higher AC. It also helped that he wasn't one "roll a Will save" away from being a liability.

And he just continued holding his own until he eventually discovered the SpC, at which point he became the most powerful member of the party (Wizard included). And when he realized that he can cast spells before entering battle, he got scary.

He didn't troll the splatbooks for options in his free time, he didn't have a group of more experienced players telling him what to pick, and he didn't take advice from the internet (until two years later, anyway). He just played with what was right in front of him.

Point being. If this thread is supposed to be about what actual newbies do with actual Druids, well, my experience is that they rock pretty damn hard.
Uh.... Brown Bears have AC 15. How is that better AC than anybody at that level? She must have been level 8 to turn into one, and many things you'll be fighting at that level can hit that on a 2. Heck, Elder Xorns have four attacks and their lowest modifier is +19!

Barring further information, I strongly suspect the DM was pulling their punches...

[Treblain]

I definitely agree that the druid is nowhere near newbieproof. My first group (around level 5) had an elf or half-elf druid who used their animal companion for scouting and RP, rarely wildshaped because they thought they had too few daily uses to waste, and didn't cast many useful combat spells except Summon Nature's Ally now and then.

Newbies don't take Entangle because they don't know if they'll always be near vegetation. They don't take Barkskin and other buffs because they're too busy figuring out how the game works to keep track of buff durations. They don't take damaging spells because even newbies can figure out that damaging spells are not up to par. So they give up on trying to find good spells and take whatever sounds cool.

Newbies don't thumb through the Monster Manuals for animal companions and wildshape forms because they've got too much to keep track of already. They assume that a class should be playable regardless of how much time you weed through the books.

That said, poorly-played druids are very easy to fix. The only thing you can screw up permanently is feats, and only Natural Spell matters. That's why people think they're newbie-proof.

Sidenote on CON: A related assumption of veteran players that bugs me is Constitution. Most newbie casters dump CON or at least don't focus on it, because they think they're supposed to be squishy. They think CON is for warriors only, since casters don't want to get hit at all. Veterans think the opposite, and make CON a priority right after casting.

[Eldariel]

Yes. But Wildling Clasps are necessary to make the Druid survivable in melee, and these boards seem to forget that. They're also not something your average casual player even knows exists. They're far too likely to pull their gear straight from the DMG/SRD. I'd hazard that only a small minority of groups actually have an MIC hardcopy - and even if they do, they likely wouldn't go looking for it until someone told them about it.

Heck, I didn't find them until someone told me about them.

But yes, Wildling Clasps make the difference. IF someone is using them.

Once again, Wild Armor from Core is just as good for the fragility perspective. Level 8 Druid with just +1 Wild Dragonhide Fullplate (about half the WBL; if the Druid has been saving most his gold after getting the Dragonhide Fullplate and enchanting it to +1, he'll easily afford this - if you're actually playing a character from 1 to 8 with remotely normal amount of treasure and getting your share, you could get it easy) in e.g. Brown Bear form has AC 24 (Tiger or Dire Wolf are 23 both); not amazing but far from the lowest end of the spectrum and plenty sufficient to block some hits. Hell, he could afford Periapt of Wis +2 and Heward's Handy Haversack in addition.

Then, when he can get an Animated or a Wild Shield he's looking at another sizable bump, and there's always the Ioun Stones. And he could cast Barkskin for +3 AC on this level too (+4 on the next level) and we're talking 26-27, and hell, Cat's Grace for +2 more if you're in a position to use short duration buffs (Barkskin is 10 min/level so it should reasonably last for a big part of e.g. a dungeon unless we're talking bigger than life dungeons where you spend days). All these uses are written straight on the spells. And his offense is, regardless of the form chosen, quite impressive with Greater Magic Fang cast on each natural weapon (and his companion who has Bardings which, again, are obviously designed for animal companions so if he reads the PHB he's aware of those).

There's also the Monk's Belt worn after Wildshaping or the dreaded Monk 1/Druid 19 though those will occur fewer players (but they'll definitely get you impressiveish AC throughout the levels). If a Core Druid player is aware of the Wild armors, I'd wager AC is going to be no real issue after he gets the Plate. And that's really no more or less obscure than any other weapon or armor property and quite clear in for whom it's designed. And in that it's a priority if you wanna chomp things in melee.

[Ernir]

Uh.... Brown Bears have AC 15. How is that better AC than anybody at that level? She must have been level 8 to turn into one, and many things you'll be fighting at that level can hit that on a 2. Heck, Elder Xorns have four attacks and their lowest modifier is +19!
Hmm, you're right, the numbers don't match. Must have been level 8? Definitely no 5th level spells, though.

Anyway, I mentioned the Wild armor (another point towards it having been level 8, actually) in the last post. The AC comparisons:

Druid: +1 dex, +4 natural, +4 wild hide. 19 total in that form.
Barbarian: +2 dex, +6 breastplate, -2 rage. 16 total.

And yes, monsters pretty much always hit. They blocked it with their chests, and prayed that their combined damage output would kill the other guy first.

Barring further information, I strongly suspect the DM was pulling their punches...
No, I didn't. The other party members died constantly (yes, that includes the Wizard). The damn druid didn't (although his animal companion did at least twice), racial con penalty and pathetic mid-game AC or not.

[sonofzeal]

Once again, Wild Armor from Core is just as good for the fragility perspective. Level 8 Druid with just +1 Wild Dragonhide Fullplate (about half the WBL; if the Druid has been saving most his gold after getting the Dragonhide Fullplate and enchanting it to +1, he'll easily afford this - if you're actually playing a character from 1 to 8 with remotely normal amount of treasure and getting your share, you could get it easy) in e.g. Brown Bear form has AC 24 (Tiger or Dire Wolf are 23 both); not amazing but far from the lowest end of the spectrum and plenty sufficient to block some hits. Hell, he could afford Periapt of Wis +2 and Heward's Handy Haversack in addition.

Then, when he can get an Animated or a Wild Shield he's looking at another sizable bump, and there's always the Ioun Stones. And he could cast Barkskin for +3 AC on this level too (+4 on the next level) and we're talking 26-27, and hell, Cat's Grace for +2 more if you're in a position to use short duration buffs (Barkskin is 10 min/level so it should reasonably last for a big part of e.g. a dungeon unless we're talking bigger than life dungeons where you spend days). All these uses are written straight on the spells. And his offense is, regardless of the form chosen, quite impressive with Greater Magic Fang cast on each natural weapon (and his companion who has Bardings which, again, are obviously designed for animal companions so if he reads the PHB he's aware of those).

There's also the Monk's Belt worn after Wildshaping or the dreaded Monk 1/Druid 19 though those will occur fewer players (but they'll definitely get you impressiveish AC throughout the levels). If a Core Druid player is aware of the Wild armors, I'd wager AC is going to be no real issue after he gets the Plate. And that's really no more or less obscure than any other weapon or armor property and quite clear in for whom it's designed. And in that it's a priority if you wanna chomp things in melee.
...I really don't think any of those are good assumptions for your average casual player. They may see "Wild" since it's on the basic armor list, but wouldn't have any major reason to go looking through Special Materials, especially since it isn't in the PHB/MM. Seriously, I wouldn't expect casual players to find pg 283 of the DM unless they were looking for something, and I wouldn't expect casual Druids to end up there at all. And without it you're either looking at Leather, which is hardly worth the 16k just for +3 AC, or Hide, which is almost worse since it inhibits movement.

Taking items off, Wildshaping, and putting them back on similarly requires a degree of creativity and willful exploitation of mechanics for personal gain. Plus, it's kind of verboten in many groups I've seen.

Also, +1 Wild Dragonhide Fullplate is worth 19,000 gp. That's not "about half" of an 8th level character's expected gold, that's over 70%! I seem to remember something about not buying items worth more than half your expected gold. And seriously, who goes without buying other items for that long? They may have better gear than our sample Druid friend, but I expect Cloaks of Resistance, Periapts of Wisdom, various scrolls and other magical trinkets. Expecting players to save up like that involves a degree of system mastery, let alone foresight, that I wouldn't expect from casual players who generally just think about what's useful or spiffy now.

[Eldariel]

...I really don't think any of those are good assumptions for your average casual player. They may see "Wild" since it's on the basic armor list, but wouldn't have any major reason to go looking through Special Materials, especially since it isn't in the PHB/MM. Seriously, I wouldn't expect casual players to find pg 283 of the DM unless they were looking for something, and I wouldn't expect casual Druids to end up there at all. And without it you're either looking at Leather, which is hardly worth the 16k just for +3 AC, or Hide, which is almost worse since it inhibits movement.

Taking items off, Wildshaping, and putting them back on similarly requires a degree of creativity and willful exploitation of mechanics for personal gain. Plus, it's kind of verboten in many groups I've seen.

Also, +1 Wild Dragonhide Fullplate is worth 19,000 gp. That's not "about half" of an 8th level character's expected gold, that's over 70%! I seem to remember something about not buying items worth more than half your expected gold. And seriously, who goes without buying other items for that long? They may have better gear than our sample Druid friend, but I expect Cloaks of Resistance, Periapts of Wisdom, various scrolls and other magical trinkets. Expecting players to save up like that involves a degree of system mastery, let alone foresight, that I wouldn't expect from casual players who generally just think about what's useful or spiffy now.

Probably not but if a Druid notices he's getting beat up in melee way too easily, he might go "C'mon, they must've designed something to make this less painful" and either ask DM or be given the magic item list themselves and run into the Wild Armor.

Yeah, the ½ your WBL limitation applies for creating new characters of that level. When you actually play it out tho, it's of course entirely up to you how you invest your gold. Of course, if the party happens to have a Weapons/Armor Smith, it would be significantly cheaper (though Druid himself can't do that before level 9).

I'm just pointing out that you don't need Wilding Clasps to become a difficult target in melee. The tools exist in Core only. It's more a matter of whether our prodigal hero finds them/is pointed towards them by the DM or not. But I'm pretty sure once the players begin realizing how big a deal and assumption magic items are in this game, they may be interested in looking at them (and the special materials while at it, if only because Mithril is something any Tolkienite would look for).

[sonofzeal]

Druid: +1 dex, +4 natural, +4 wild hide. 19 total in that form.
Barbarian: +2 dex, +6 breastplate, -2 rage. 16 total.
Wild Hide is an out-of-depth item at that level, covering about 60% of the character's total WBL. I wouldn't expect your average 8th lvl Druid to have something like that unless the DM was being extremely generous.

And you said Elf, so we can assume 10 or 12 Con, max. With 12 Con, we're looking at about 48 hp. That's not a lot, and 19 AC is also not a lot. So even with an out-of-depth item I'd expect this Druid to take a lot of damage pretty quickly if he hung out on the front lines.

Sometimes the Dice Gods smile on you, though....

[Chronos]

A few other posters have already mentioned this, but even if a druid player makes mistakes, they can mostly correct them, once they notice. If a fighter realizes that the Weapon Focus, Dodge, and Toughness they took at first level suck, well tough, you're stuck with them. And that's about all the relevant decisions a fighter makes. If a sorcerer realizes that Magic Missile and Burning Hands were a waste of spells known, again, tough. But if a druid finds that their spells, or animal companion, or wildshape forms suck, fine, just start using different ones. You're only screwed for one day at a time.

The other thing about the druid is that the druid doesn't suck at first level. There's only about five classes in the game for which that's true, and the druid is the only one of those that's in core. Just taking a wolf as an animal companion (which is the most newbie-obvious choice anyway) gives you a single class feature that's nearly as good as the entire fighter. Better, actually, since the animal companion is expendable: If your fighter takes a lucky crit, you need to roll up a new character, but if your pet doggy takes one, you just need to wait a day and get a new one.

As for the argument about assigning ability scores, the PHB, in the section on each class, explicitly says which scores are most important for that class. I'm not by my books at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that the book comes right out and tells you that you should put your top two scores into Wis and Con. If by "newbie" you mean "never even read the description of the class", well, then nothing's newbie-friendly.

[Hunter Killer]

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you here and say that I do, in fact, believe that Druids are Newbie Proof. At least moreso than any other class, because entire class features are more powerful than other classes.

Even if you only focus on one aspect of the class and ignore the rest, making decent choices to improve that one aspect of the class will make your Druid a viable character. That's just how good they are.

You can't just assume that all newbies make every imaginable wrong choice. That's not true, and it doesn't prove your point. Every class can be taken to obscenely low levels of optimization, but that often takes deliberately bad choices. Even a cursory reading of the class, spells, and feats should put the player in the right place for some decent choices.

Furthermore, you're also assuming a DM who is unfamiliar with the rules and isn't advising or guiding the players' character creation processes. While those do exist, I've played with dozens of groups throughout the years that have competent and nurturing DM's. With one of those, a bad Druid is impossible.

[Ernir]

Wild Hide is an out-of-depth item at that level, covering about 60% of the character's total WBL. I wouldn't expect your average 8th lvl Druid to have something like that unless the DM was being extremely generous.

And you said Elf, so we can assume 10 or 12 Con, max. With 12 Con, we're looking at about 48 hp. That's not a lot, and 19 AC is also not a lot. So even with an out-of-depth item I'd expect this Druid to take a lot of damage pretty quickly if he hung out on the front lines.

Sometimes the Dice Gods smile on you, though....

We didn't know of the no-more-than-half-your-WBL rule at the time. Newbies, remember? And it's not like we knew of anything else for him to buy at the time. So he just dumped everything on that.

No need to assume, I am very sure his con was significantly higher than 10-12. I don't remember the exact number (I have shown myself to not remember those well enough anyway), but I'd place it in the 14-16 range after the racial penalty. He rolled well on 4d6b3.

As for the AC... yes, it sucked, and he took some hits. Never enough to kill him.
Which reminds me. "AC doesn't matter", and "AC is an all-or-nothing deal" are other common sayings on these forums...

[sonofzeal]

Probably not but if a Druid notices he's getting beat up in melee way too easily, he might go "C'mon, they must've designed something to make this less painful" and either ask DM or be given the magic item list themselves and run into the Wild Armor.
Oh, I'm sure they would. But saving up 16k is going to take a while for most characters in most campaigns. I just finished a campaign that reached lvl 13, and by that point we could expect to have 16k gp free without too much hardship. But as I said before, in my experience casual players tend not to plan ahead by more than a couple sessions. They rarely select their feats with PrCs in mind - more often they reach the level where PrC access could become available, and then start thinking of which ones to work towards.

I just wouldn't expect them to find it an obvious strategy.


I'm just pointing out that you don't need Wilding Clasps to become a difficult target in melee. The tools exist in Core only. It's more a matter of whether our prodigal hero finds them/is pointed towards them by the DM or not. But I'm pretty sure once the players begin realizing how big a deal and assumption magic items are in this game, they may be interested in looking at them (and the special materials while at it, if only because Mithril is something any Tolkienite would look for).
Oh, the tools exist! I'm not denying that! All I'm saying is that we have to tell people to look for them.

Seriously.

That's it.

I could find literally hundreds of posts, to people coming here for Druid advice, that imply that Natural Spell is all you need to know about. And that's simply not true, not if you want to engage in melee combat. Wild Dragonhide Fullplate is great! Wildling Clasps are great! But we can't expect everyone to find those or realize their significance on their own.

Because a Druid who isn't using either and tries to bite face may well never live long enough to learn their lesson. Again, damage calculations of even-CR threats against a Wildshaped Druid with no special protections are often in the insta-gib category. That's... not a fun place to be.


(Oh, and Barkskin is awesome, but until it gets an hour/lvl duration I wouldn't presume it to be on all the time.)

[sonofzeal]

As for the argument about assigning ability scores, the PHB, in the section on each class, explicitly says which scores are most important for that class. I'm not by my books at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that the book comes right out and tells you that you should put your top two scores into Wis and Con. If by "newbie" you mean "never even read the description of the class", well, then nothing's newbie-friendly.
It says the 2nd most important score is Dexterity. It doesn't even mention Con.

I know, right? But if a casual player reads that, we can't blame them for taking it at face value.


I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you here and say that I do, in fact, believe that Druids are Newbie Proof. At least moreso than any other class, because entire class features are more powerful than other classes.

Even if you only focus on one aspect of the class and ignore the rest, making decent choices to improve that one aspect of the class will make your Druid a viable character. That's just how good they are.

You can't just assume that all newbies make every imaginable wrong choice. That's not true, and it doesn't prove your point. Every class can be taken to obscenely low levels of optimization, but that often takes deliberately bad choices. Even a cursory reading of the class, spells, and feats should put the player in the right place for some decent choices.

Furthermore, you're also assuming a DM who is unfamiliar with the rules and isn't advising or guiding the players' character creation processes. While those do exist, I've played with dozens of groups throughout the years that have competent and nurturing DM's. With one of those, a bad Druid is impossible.
The highlighted phrase is where I differ from you. I would expect a casual player to get some things for their spells, like Periapts of Wisdom and Pearls of Power. I'd expect them to take Natural Spell, and buy Druid's Vestments. I'd expect them to choose an Animal Companion that sounds reasonably impressive, like a Wolf or Dire Wolf.

But I wouldn't presume on any "optimization" beyond that, not for your average casual player. Someone who's out looking for advantages and trying to learn the rules and how to make good characters can easily find some more to do. As said before, the tools exist, even in Core. But they're not intuitive or obvious to casual players, and I wouldn't presume on them getting used.



We didn't know of the no-more-than-half-your-WBL rule at the time. Newbies, remember? And it's not like we knew of anything else for him to buy at the time. So he just dumped everything on that.
I guess he got lucky then. I would have expected Periapts of Wisdom and Druid's Vestments to come first by a mile.


Which reminds me. "AC doesn't matter", and "AC is an all-or-nothing deal" are other common sayings on these forums...
...and it's also bunk. But that's an argument for another day.

(Short form - I just looked up four CR 10 monsters, and the average was +13.5. Seeing as how characters who aren't even focusing on AC can have it up in the 20-25 range with fairly little effort by that level, I'd consider it entirely useful, and hardly all-or-nothing.)

[Eldariel]

...and it's also bunk. But that's an argument for another day.

(Short form - I just looked up four CR 10 monsters, and the average was +13.5. Seeing as how characters who aren't even focusing on AC can have it up in the 20-25 range with fairly little effort by that level, I'd consider it entirely useful, and hardly all-or-nothing.)

Well, it applies on certain levels of optimization. Like, it's the basis for Shock Troopers for instance and various characters using e.g. Ring of Blinking with the money saved from AC gear (or just utility items). It's not an universal truth but it's also not without some truth to it. It just assumes a (comparatively) high level of optimization on both, the NPCs' and the PCs' part.

[sonofzeal]

Well, it applies on certain levels of optimization. Like, it's the basis for Shock Troopers for instance and various characters using e.g. Ring of Blinking with the money saved from AC gear (or just utility items). It's not an universal truth but it's also not without some truth to it. It just assumes a (comparatively) high level of optimization on both, the NPCs' and the PCs' part.
Well, if the argument's that certain builds can do fine without paying any attention to AC, then I do agree. There are certainly alternatives.

But the way it's often phrased implies to me that AC is worthless, which is quite false at most levels in most games. At any level, it's not hard for even a Rogue or Monk or other non-fullplate class to have a relevant AC. You'll still take hits obviously, but most enemies will be missing a fair amount too - especially on iteratives or Power Attacks. AC might cease to be relevant in epic or near-epic play, but a moderate investment is usually worth it.

I could run the math if you want, but I think my little lvl 10 example proved my point. If a CR 10 monster swings for an average of +13, and a lvl 10 character can easily have an AC of 20-25 without really trying, then unless you're completely dumping AC and using other methods of defence, bonuses and penalties to AC are entirely relevant. This is truest at low level, but remains true well past level 10.

[Neopolis]

So, uh, can someone tell me what's so great about Wildling Clasps? I've never played a druid, but it seems like they're just convenient, rather than integral. I mean, what's stopping you from taking off your gear and then putting it on again when you're in Wild Shape? Are they really all that useful for anything other than being caught off-guard?

[Eldariel]

Well, if the argument's that certain builds can do fine without paying any attention to AC, then I do agree. There are certainly alternatives.

But the way it's often phrased implies to me that AC is worthless, which is quite false at most levels in most games. At any level, it's not hard for even a Rogue or Monk or other non-fullplate class to have a relevant AC. You'll still take hits obviously, but most enemies will be missing a fair amount too - especially on iteratives or Power Attacks. AC might cease to be relevant in epic or near-epic play, but a moderate investment is usually worth it.

I could run the math if you want, but I think my little lvl 10 example proved my point. If a CR 10 monster swings for an average of +13, and a lvl 10 character can easily have an AC of 20-25 without really trying, then unless you're completely dumping AC and using other methods of defence, bonuses and penalties to AC are entirely relevant. This is truest at low level, but remains true well past level 10.

Well, it really depends on which creatures you look at. Picking clear brawlers from CR 10, I found Fire Giant at +20 primary, 11-Headed Hydra at +16, Juvenile Red Dragon at +24 primary, NPC Barbarian 10 at +18, Bebilith at +19, Razor Boar at +22... I can't really find any main melee with attack bonus under +16 and most seem to crop around +20.

Yeah, it's helpful against PA but if you really want to avoid primary/natural attacks from full melees with 50% chances, you should get your AC to about 30.


Generally, for non-casters Armor becomes a difficult proposition once you run out of mundane improvements. Fullplate is obviously incredibly efficient but then you need to begin investing in Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, Armor & Shield Enhancements and the Ioun Stone to keep up.

This can be done but without a Cleric casting Magic Vestment in the party, it becomes a significant drain on your resources; for example, to reach 30 AC by level 10 on a two-hander you need +3 Fullplate, +1 Animated Heavy Steel Shield, Ring of Protection +2, Amulet of Natural Armor +2, Dusty Rose Ioun Stone and 12 Dex (10 + 1 Dex + 11 Armor + 3 Shield + 2 Natural Armor + 2 Deflection + 1 Insight = 30); this totals at 1650 + 9000 + ~150 + 9000 + 8000 + 8000 + 5000 = 40800.

Magic Vestment changes the whole equation though, of course, and running Sword & Board would drop the expenses by 12000 (but cost you significantly in your offense, as on these levels we're probably looking at very significant chances for Power Attacking and Strength-bonuses given the enemies' average AC being mere 23). In my experience, it's worth it for extremely high Dex types (who can use Monk's Belt or Celestial Armor) and and for parties with Cleric. Magic Vestment changes the whole equation.


So, uh, can someone tell me what's so great about Wildling Clasps? I've never played a druid, but it seems like they're just convenient, rather than integral. I mean, what's stopping you from taking off your gear and then putting it on again when you're in Wild Shape? Are they really all that useful for anything other than being caught off-guard?

Basically, not all groups allow putting items on after Wildshaping. In that case, they become superb widening Druids' options tenfold from the extremely restricted (if efficient) equipment set they mostly use in Core.

[Cieyrin]

So, uh, can someone tell me what's so great about Wildling Clasps? I've never played a druid, but it seems like they're just convenient, rather than integral. I mean, what's stopping you from taking off your gear and then putting it on again when you're in Wild Shape? Are they really all that useful for anything other than being caught off-guard?

It's a rules way to ensuring you keep your stuff regardless of form and there's less to discuss with your DM on whether you can still use your rings and vests while you're impersonating Winnie the Pooh. Most stuff does resize but I can easily see some DMs and players saying 'Nuh-uh, no way, your bear form can't wear those magic boots'. It's resolving an argument before it happens.

ninja'd

[Amphetryon]

It's a rules way to ensuring you keep your stuff regardless of form and there's less to discuss with your DM on whether you can still use your rings and vests while you're impersonating Winnie the Pooh. Most stuff does resize but I can easily see some DMs and players saying 'Nuh-uh, no way, your bear form can't wear those magic boots'. It's resolving an argument before it happens.

ninja'dIt's also a lot more convenient for those times when you needed to be in your native form for whatever reason and then, BAM!, Emeril all hell breaks loose and you need to fight something.

[Chronos]

Quoth sonofzeal:
It says the 2nd most important score is Dexterity. It doesn't even mention Con.

I know, right? But if a casual player reads that, we can't blame them for taking it at face value.Yeah, I just double-checked that myself. I stand corrected: It would be reasonable for a newbie to take that at face value, and thus end up suboptimal, especially since that points further towards elves.

[imneuromancer]

Druids are probably the hardest characters to actually PLAY because they have so much going on, have a great deal of flexibility that has to be dealt with, and have spells and abilities that gain effectiveness as they are used correctly.

At any given time, they have to deal with:
1) their animal companion
2) their own actions
3) their spell list
4) their summons (this could be a job unto itself)
5) their wild shapes (at higher level)
6) their equipment that does/does not make it into wild shape
7) their ability to speak (i.e. with their animal companions, with party members when they are in wild shape, etc.)

The only class that MAY be more complicated is the wizard, what with their spellboooks and the strange way arcane spells tend to bend reality.

Personally, I would steer a newbie away from playing a 3.5 Druid.

[sonofzeal]

Well, it really depends on which creatures you look at. Picking clear brawlers from CR 10, I found Fire Giant at +20 primary, 11-Headed Hydra at +16, Juvenile Red Dragon at +24 primary, NPC Barbarian 10 at +18, Bebilith at +19, Razor Boar at +22... I can't really find any main melee with attack bonus under +16 and most seem to crop around +20.
The Clay Golem is at +14 and the Hydra is at +13. And most of the monsters have secondary attacks under +15, or Power Attack, or both. Even if a Bebilith hits with its bite more often than not, you likely don't want to get shmackered by both claw attacks. And a Giant's full attack has three swings; 3d6+15 isn't all that much at that level, but 9d6+45 can easily be lethal. Someone with a mediocre 24 AC is probably taking at least one hit but is unlikely to take all three, but someone like a Wildshaping Druid, with an AC of 17-ish, is quite likely to be a bleeding broken pile of ex-PC. With 14 Con, the average damage of all three hits is pretty instantly lethal. Even with 16 Con, it could put you down into negatives with a good roll. And that's assuming you were at full health at the start of the fight, which is not always a guarantee.

A Fighter may not have 30 armor at that level, but can easily have >25. And there's a few ways to lower the budget - bucklers (worn) or tower shields (animated) both provide either better AC or a cheaper price or both, and mithral on the armor with decent starting Dex and Gloves is more efficient than upgrading the ring/ammy to +2. I could get a comparable AC for significantly cheaper.

But heck, I'm an optimizer, I know my way around. Let's look at unoptimized casual play since that's our baseline here.

Specifically, here's Tordek (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20000626d).

...yep, 22 AC at lvl 4, and 25/26 at lvl 7. He's gaining about a point of AC per level, so we could reasonably expect to see him at 28/29 at lvl 10. That extrapolation may not hold of course, but it provides a reasonable baseline. An unoptimized Fighter should expect to see the high 20's by that level, which is enough to get a reasonable miss chance on a monster's primary attack, and a very good miss chance if they're Power Attacking or using iteratives/secondaries. And I'd consider that worthwhile.

...Which is why I consider a Monk's AC never improving beyond the high teens to be a massive liability to the whole face-biting routine, until you're using appropriate methods to compensate.

[Eldariel]

The Clay Golem is at +14 and the Hydra is at +13.

Which Hydra? Eleven-Headed Hydra (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm) is CR 10 and has +16. You may be talking about 9-Headed Cryo/Pyrohydras whose primary attack is absolutely their breath weapon (which does absolutely brutal damage for the level at 27d6 - Avg. 94 - with Ref ½, I might add).

Clay Golem I didn't notice. It is indeed ridiculously weak for a CR10; I guess on the account of its Cursed Wound being able to completely FUBAR some characters, and the inherent 1/day Haste (which gives it +15/+15/+15 attack routine; still far from impressive though) and the hardish-to-overcome DR for characters on the level. From the numbers I've seen though, the average for actual melee creatures seems very much closer to +20 than +15.


Yeah, Tower Shield or Buckler (with IBD) would work but both carry attack penalties and IBD has a feat tax too for two-handing. Either way, I don't especially like either option. Tordek, yeah, he's sword&board and does manage AC 28 assuming this rate of growth for level 10. Which isn't awful; about 35% miss chance from +20 To Hit.

His damage does suffer greatly as a consequence though and given he still has no means to hold enemies on him, I would perceive that as a problem. Two-Handing would solve these problems but force more work to get the desired AC again (even more so if we had a Barbarian instead of a Fighter). In general, the problems of S&B really generate problems with AC too since it's the go-to AC setup and it just has a ton of issues and gives up a ton of tactical options in reach, combat maneuvers and Power Attack.

Which is really the root of the "screw AC, buy miss chance" credo; at a point where the optimal method just loses tons of AC, it becomes too expensive to maintain high enough AC to gain good miss chances from it so saving the money and using it for e.g. Ring of Blinking instead is considered a fine idea. If one's build is S&B melee Fighter then AC isn't terribly expensive but the character will have efficiency issues. Two-hander will pay much more for the same AC and people using charges, Rage, etc. will pay even more.

[sonofzeal]

Which Hydra? Eleven-Headed Hydra (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm) is CR 10 and has +16. You may be talking about 9-Headed Cryo/Pyrohydras whose primary attack is absolutely their breath weapon (which does absolutely brutal damage for the level at 27d6 - Avg. 94 - with Ref ½, I might add).

Clay Golem I didn't notice. It is indeed ridiculously weak for a CR10; I guess on the account of its Cursed Wound being able to completely FUBAR some characters, and the inherent 1/day Haste (which gives it +15/+15/+15 attack routine; still far from impressive though) and the hardish-to-overcome DR for characters on the level. From the numbers I've seen though, the average for actual melee creatures seems very much closer to +20 than +15.


Yeah, Tower Shield or Buckler (with IBD) would work but both carry attack penalties and IBD has a feat tax too for two-handing. Either way, I don't especially like either option. Tordek, yeah, he's sword&board and does manage AC 28 assuming this rate of growth for level 10. Which isn't awful; about 35% miss chance from +20 To Hit.

His damage does suffer greatly as a consequence though and given he still has no means to hold enemies on him, I would perceive that as a problem. Two-Handing would solve these problems but force more work to get the desired AC again.
A -1 to attacks from Buckler is not significant, it's just Weapon Focus in reverse. But a +X Buckler adds a substantial chunk of survivability. I usually play at low-mid levels where animated shields are pretty expensive, so I usually go Buckler and rarely regret it. The -2 penalty from Tower Shields is slightly more significant, but on a character with full BAB it's entirely survivable, and the AC boost from an Animated one is usually worth it IMO.

But now we're well off topic. Point is, AC is quite relevant in most games at most levels.

[Eldariel]

A -1 to attacks from Buckler is not significant, it's just Weapon Focus in reverse. But a +X Buckler adds a substantial chunk of survivability. I usually play at low-mid levels where animated shields are pretty expensive, so I usually go Buckler and rarely regret it. The -2 penalty from Tower Shields is slightly more significant, but on a character with full BAB it's entirely survivable, and the AC boost from an Animated one is usually worth it IMO.

But now we're well off topic. Point is, AC is quite relevant in most games at most levels.

Aye. But the credo comes from 339 where characters under the efficiency of a two-hander built to do the few things melee does well weren't consider much of anything. As such, it applies to those especially. As such, you're right, it's not true for every character and every level. Regardless of how it's used nowadays (because of people not knowing, I suppose), it's only directed at that one specific environment.

But I suppose this is indeed irrelevant. Then again, everything there is to discuss about newbies and Druids has already been discussed so I don't think it's such a bad thing to cover something else with the same thread while it's here.

[candycorn]

Personally, I think cleric is the most newbie proof power caster class, getting less armor limitations, as well as the full flexibility of divine casters.

Barbarian is also fairly hard to mess up, as is the ToB classes... But they're quite a bit weaker (just more resilient at low levels of optimisation).

[Gnaeus]

Uh.... Brown Bears have AC 15. How is that better AC than anybody at that level? She must have been level 8 to turn into one, and many things you'll be fighting at that level can hit that on a 2. Heck, Elder Xorns have four attacks and their lowest modifier is +19!

Barring further information, I strongly suspect the DM was pulling their punches...

Because if they run on your no armor philosophy, the barbarian and the fighter have AC 10.

The druid has AC 15 (bearform) +2 Leather armor, which he puts on after turning into a bear all day, +3 NA from barkskin = AC 20. Thats easymode core. It could be much higher than that, if bite of the wereX is in play, if his armor is magical, etc.

As a result of your failure to take the druid's real ac into account, your math is false in all your examples.

[Fax Celestis]

+2 Leather armor, which he puts on after turning into a bear all day

Bears can't wear armor for the same price that other PCs can: you have to wear custom armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#armorForUnusualCreatures), which at a x4 price tag is pretty hefty. I highly doubt your druid is affording leather armor +2, since it costs 16,640 GP, over half the WBL for ECL 8.

[Cieyrin]

Bears can't wear armor for the same price that other PCs can: you have to wear custom armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#armorForUnusualCreatures), which at a x4 price tag is pretty hefty. I highly doubt your druid is affording leather armor +2, since it costs 16,640 GP, over half the WBL for ECL 8.

I don't think they meant Leather Armor +2, they meant they get +2 from wearing Leather Barding, which is 40 gp. At least, that's what the math seems to indicate from how he calculated his AC.

[sonofzeal]

Because if they run on your no armor philosophy, the barbarian and the fighter have AC 10.

The druid has AC 15 (bearform) +2 Leather armor, which he puts on after turning into a bear all day, +3 NA from barkskin = AC 20. Thats easymode core. It could be much higher than that, if bite of the wereX is in play, if his armor is magical, etc.

As a result of your failure to take the druid's real ac into account, your math is false in all your examples.
a) Bearform is AC 13, not 15, until lvl 8.

b) Donning gear made for humans while in bear form is generally verboten. That's what Wild enhancements or Wildling Clasps are for. Under your logic both those items are completely pointless since they accomplish absolutely nothing and you can get their full benefit for zero cost and zero investment. I suspect it would take an extremely permissive DM to let that interpretation fly.

c) Until Barkskin gains an hour/lvl duration, I'm not going to include it in default calculations for AC. It's a good spell, but a casual Druid is highly unlikely to have it up all the time. It simply wears off too quickly, an average Druid in an average adventuring day is likely to face several fights where it either hasn't been cast yet or has already expired. Even multiple castings are unlikely to see them through the whole day.

[Coidzor]

b) Donning gear made for humans while in bear form is generally verboten. That's what Wild enhancements or Wildling Clasps are for. Under your logic both those items are completely pointless since they accomplish absolutely nothing and you can get their full benefit for zero cost and zero investment. I suspect it would take an extremely permissive DM to let that interpretation fly.

Aside from armor, most magical gear is supposed to resize so that you can use the loot you pry off of the steaming corpses of the dragons you kill, so that's just a DM deliberately ignoring the rules for the things animals can wear.

And, well, if the DM is that out to nerf wildshape...


Bears can't wear armor for the same price that other PCs can: you have to wear custom armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#armorForUnusualCreatures), which at a x4 price tag is pretty hefty. I highly doubt your druid is affording leather armor +2, since it costs 16,640 GP, over half the WBL for ECL 8.

:smallconfused: ...Are you multiplying the enchantment's cost or something, Fax? Because if so, then that's the same as saying the entire environment is hostile to the point where they just wouldn't allow the druid to be played in the first place.

(160*4 or 10*4+150) + 4000 < 16,640.

[JFahy]

I suspect one of the problems with wildshape is the difference between how it works in Pathfinder/D&D, and how it works in World of Warcraft.

In a recent campaign my friend's son was playing for the first time, and took a druid - his first paper-and-pencil RPG and our first time playing Pathfinder. His past 'RPG' experience? WoW.

So sure enough, first chance he gets he turns into a bear, piles into melee and it takes some heroics from the cleric to keep him from getting his head torn off. In WoW just being in bear form gives you very good damage reduction and increased health; at low levels even if your gear is the pits (and it is, when you first get Bear) just transforming is enough to make you viable.

With wildshape, what I'm seeing is that transforming is great, as long as you pile on buffs, study the monster manual and pull gear out of a couple Big-Book-o-Buffs supplements.

A former WoW player who skims the class description is going to see that ability and think, 'alright, feral forms; I got this'. The DM has to let them know immediately that wildshape is good in certain ways, but it's not as straightforward as "Become Bear > Maul Faces".

[Gnaeus]

b) Donning gear made for humans while in bear form is generally verboten.


I don't think they meant Leather Armor +2, they meant they get +2 from wearing Leather Barding, which is 40 gp. At least, that's what the math seems to indicate from how he calculated his AC.

Correct. If he wants to enchant his barding, thats just a +. It is, of course, easy to do by this level within WBL. Also, Coidzor is correct on his pricing.


a) Bearform is AC 13, not 15, until lvl 8.

At which point, his Barkskin lasts an hour and a half, more than enough to clear the enemy lair of all hostile inhabitants. So 15 (bearform) + 2 leather barding, + 3 (level 8 barkskin) is the MINIMUM a level 8 druid is likely to have in an encounter, and it can be much higher without clasps. If the party has other casters and they cross buff, it can be much, much higher.



c) Until Barkskin gains an hour/lvl duration, I'm not going to include it in default calculations for AC.

Then until you do, your math is wrong, your examples aren't worth typing or reading. The level 8 druid is a vastly superior warrior to the fighter who is using a dagger, wearing leather armor, who put all his feats into toughness. If Mr. Fighter is using basic core equipment and his class features, so will Mr. Druid.

[Fax Celestis]

:smallconfused: ...Are you multiplying the enchantment's cost or something, Fax?

Why wouldn't I?


Armor For Unusual Creatures

Armor and shields for unusually big creatures, unusually little creatures, and nonhumanoid creatures have different costs and weights from those given on Table: Armor and Shields. Refer to the appropriate line on the table below and apply the multipliers to cost and weight for the armor type in question.

It doesn't say that the cost is pre-enhancement, just that it is multiplied.

[sonofzeal]

Aside from armor, most magical gear is supposed to resize so that you can use the loot you pry off of the steaming corpses of the dragons you kill, so that's just a DM deliberately ignoring the rules for the things animals can wear.

And, well, if the DM is that out to nerf wildshape...
Then why do Wildling Clasps exist? More relevantly, why are they commonly recommended on this very board?

Actually........



Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet.

Read literally, this doesn't say it happens "when Wildshape is activated". It is simply a property of wildshape, like not being able to speak. If that's the case, even if you put gear on after Wildshaping, it too melds into the new form. Including Gnaeus's barding.

I've never seen things ruled that way specifically, but it appears to be RAW and may actually indeed be RAI - it certainly resolves the existence of Wild armors and Wildling Clasps nicely. It seems eminently obvious that WotC intended for you not to benefit from gear while in Wildshape, hence those various magic items and the caveat itself.

[Grendyll]

In my experience, it is far more likely for a wild-shaping, melee focused druid to do something more like this at level 6 :

Transform into a Leopard (for combo of mobility and damage and defense), Crocodile (if you need to control enemy with grapple), or maybe Black Bear (for pure damage if you have other heavy melee to act as targets and share damage load). Then you cast Greater Magic Fang (shared with your companion) (6/12 hours if you use a lesser metamagic rod of extend spell, use option to imbue all natural attacks at +1). Wear leather barding (possibly masterwork, still dirt cheap for about 10gp x2 for medium sized unusual nonhumanoid = 20gp) or better have the party Arcane cast Mage Armor on you (buy him a level 1 pearl of power to make up for his spell slot loss, or volunteer to dedicate on of your level 1 spell slots for him, also buy a wand of mage armor or potions of mage armor as backup). Using another daily use off the lesser extend spell rod, with the wand/potions as backups, you will very, very likely cover all of your adventuring time (and at this level, if you are surprised in the middle of the night or something, if you aren’t sleeping in rope tricks or something, you likely won’t use wildshape for that fight anyway).

At the start of combat, cast Bite of the Werewolf and share it with your companion (say a crocodile, equipped with normal leather barding, again 20gp). At this point you should have STR 21, DEX 23, CON 19. Average HP should be 8 + 5d8 + 6*CONBonus + 12 when you cast Bite, with a starting CON of 14 that should be 54.5. AC should be +1 Natural Armor, +4 Armor, +4 Nat Armor Enhancement, +6 DEX = 25 AC. If you need more, cast Halo of Sand (from Sandstorm) for +2 deflection for an hour using a level 2 spell slot. You might also commonly have +1 from Haste for a probable AC of 28 in the big fights. Your pet Crocodile should be sporting an AC of +6 Natural Armor, +2 Armor, +4 Natural Armor Enhancement, +3 DEX = 25 AC (and no reason it would not share +2 from Halo of Sand and +1 from Haste). The pet should have HP around 8 + 4d8 + 25 = 51 (it gets 2 bonus HD and evasion from advanced druid level).

Your pet Crocodile charges, bites, grapples a target with improved grab, you follow with a pouncing charge, attacking 5 times (6 if hasted) with bite/claw/claw/rake/rake (+another bite if hasted) and if the target is being held grappled by your companion it doesn’t have its DEX to AC. Your attack bonus should be around 4 BAB + 5 STR + 1 enhancement (from magic fang) +2 charging (possibly +1 from haste, +2 from flanking with your companion, which you should almost always be doing) = +10 to +15 to-hit. Average damage hasted against an AC 20 target should be around (assuming an average to-hit of +13, ignoring crits) = (.7 * 1d6+6+1d6+6) + (.45 * 1d3+3+1d3+3+1d3+3+1d3+3) ~= 22 DPR from you plus your pet’s bite attacks (which should have about the same to-hit number as you) = .7 * 1d8+8+1d8+8 ~= 17.5 DPR.

This druid only spent :
3000gp for a lesser metamagic rod of extend spell (only 2 daily uses for mage armor and greater magic fang, so 1 remaining, could split the cost of this item with party Arcane or Cleric as they would probably make good use of it as well)
1000gp for a level 1 pearl of power (on loan to the party Arcane)
750gp for a wand of mage armor (again on loan to the party Arcane)
150gp for a few potions of mage armor (let other party members carry them and feed them to you if needed after wildshaping)
40 - 100 gp for leather barding for several forms plus companion

So splitting the cost of the metamagic rod, this Druid only needs about 4000 gp in stuff to achieve these results. Starting with 28 point buy stats around STR 8, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 18, CHA 10, he should be able to cover at least 2 major battles with Bite of the Werewolf and maybe have to resort to a lesser buff for further combat encounters. With a Wand of Lesser Vigor, he can actually heal up the party after combats so they face each encounter with much closer to full HP. And on non-combat, non-adventuring days, he can use his spell slots to do other things not combat related.

I would think the fighter needs a lot more cash to run around with 25AC most of the time at level 6 (especially without using a shield and gimping his damage). If you fast forward to level 8 or 9, the Druid really gets scary and leaves the fighter in the dust as I think everyone is well aware of by now, so I don’t want to smack that deceased equine further.

Really when it comes down to it, people call the Druid newbie-proof because of the mechanics of wildshape and divine spell-casting in general. Any character of any class can be poorly made and poorly played. However, a player that screws up his fighter character generally needs to change his starting stat allocation, feat allocation, sell his magic stuff (at a possible high gp loss), and buy new magic stuff to “fix” his character. A druid player only needs to show up to the gaming table having done a little bit of research and decide to memorize better spells, wildshape into better forms, and spend 24 hours in-game time to release his animal companion and call a new one to service. The only thing they could screw up and not be easily able to “fix”, would be to dump WIS, CON, or not take Natural Spell. In general, these are things even the newbie-est of players pick up on pretty fast (I think a melee druid really needs companion spellbond to be able to use the companion effectively as well). Druids really don’t need much in the way of gear, starting stats (they get replaced by wildshape), or even feats (with things like Multiattack and/or Improved Grapple the druid above would get even scarier, but it is not needed).

[Coidzor]

It doesn't say that the cost is pre-enhancement, just that it is multiplied.

Yes, it does. Because armor has to be made as a piece of masterwork armor before it is made magical. These are separate processes. Do you really think it needs a nerf beyond being unusable to the party if they acquired it unless they happened to have a pet bear and only usable to the druid in that one specific wildshape form? :smallconfused:


Then why do Wildling Clasps exist? More relevantly, why are they commonly recommended on this very board? Convenience and for the things that you can't just re-equip in an animal form but that wilding clasps would afford you the use of.


Read literally, this doesn't say it happens "when Wildshape is activated". It is simply a property of wildshape, like not being able to speak. If that's the case, even if you put gear on after Wildshaping, it too melds into the new form. Including Gnaeus's barding.

Well, then you run into other stupid things like using the druid as a drug mule/transporting vast quantities of goods, only more so.


I've never seen things ruled that way specifically, but it appears to be RAW and may actually indeed be RAI - it certainly resolves the existence of Wild armors and Wildling Clasps nicely. It seems eminently obvious that WotC intended for you not to benefit from gear while in Wildshape, hence those various magic items and the caveat itself.

Wild armors give you the benefits of the armor without any of the downsides while you're in wildshape from my understanding. That alone would justify their existence, since you suddenly have no more max dex or ACP but you do have the AC boost.

ION: This conversation is so terrifying that I went to take a walk for the better part of an hour.

[Hunter Killer]

It seems eminently obvious that WotC intended for you not to benefit from gear while in Wildshape, hence those various magic items and the caveat itself.

Except you are glossing over the significance of the line right after the one you pointed out: Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet.

This line leads me to believe that things clearly can be equipped on your person while in Wild Shape, and that they don't just meld into you when you put them on. Otherwise why mention that clause about new items?

Honestly, I think you're just grasping at straws to prove your point. We get it. Natural Spell + Bear form does not equal Newbie Proof or Insta-Win. I think we all agree for the most part too, with the following point:

There's enough meat to the Druid class that even someone who's putting in a little bit of effort (By maybe reading the class and appropriate book sections or getting DM help) can get some mileage out of the class and be at least decently effective in most situations.

[sonofzeal]

Wild armors give you the benefits of the armor without any of the downsides while you're in wildshape from my understanding. That alone would justify their existence, since you suddenly have no more max dex or ACP but you do have the AC boost.
Here's the Wild property text, from the SRD:


The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be made covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen.

Nothing about that suggests your interpretation in the slightest. You're still considered wearing it for all intents and purposes. It can't be seen, but it's still there, and you still suffer all the normal restrictions because there's no specific clause overriding the general rule.


Except you are glossing over the significance of the line right after the one you pointed out: Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet.
Ah, I missed that, good point. RAW is still ambiguous, but RAI does seem to allow for some amount of items, I'll certainly grant that. I'm not sure how much human clothing would work on a bear though. What the SRD says is that "size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items", but I think the problem here is more about shape. And the text is very oddly worded too - "most of the time", "many" are "adjustable".

Does anyone have Rules Compendium handy, or know of any other source that clarifies the limits of the "Size And Magic Items" clause?

[Eldariel]

Nothing about that suggests your interpretation in the slightest. You're still considered wearing it for all intents and purposes. It can't be seen, but it's still there, and you still suffer all the normal restrictions because there's no specific clause overriding the general rule.

Hum? General rule is that the item becomes melded and ceases to have a mechanical impact on anything while melded. Wild Armor keeps granting the bonus but otherwise becomes melded so that's the only effect that remains (since that's the exception Wild makes).

[Taelas]

Bears can't wear armor for the same price that other PCs can: you have to wear custom armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#armorForUnusualCreatures), which at a x4 price tag is pretty hefty. I highly doubt your druid is affording leather armor +2, since it costs 16,640 GP, over half the WBL for ECL 8.
Uh, no.

The x4 price tag applies to the base price (it specifically refers to Table 7-6: Armor and Shields on page 123, "Armor for Unusual Creatures"). It doesn't even apply to the MW component, which is added to the base price (but isn't actually part of it).

For +2 leather armor intended for a Large nonhumanoid creature, the price is 4,190 gp.


Sonofzeal, it seems to me that you are talking about players who are just plain bad, not simply newbies. Many new players are smart enough to read through the spell list, for example.

[Thespianus]

Your pet Crocodile charges
You forgot to mention that, at this point (A charge requires 10 ft of movement), the Share Spell-feature of the Druid fails, and the Animal Companion does no longer share the spell effect with you. The range for Share Spell is 5 ft, you have to be within 5 ft of your AC at all times during the shared spell's effect.

You can, however, take the Companion Spellbond Feat (PHBII) to extend this range to 30 ft, which makes the Share Spell ability a LOT more useful, and your argument works. However, I figured this was worth mentioning in this case.

EDIT: I am SO sorry, you *did* mention this at the end of your post. My bad. :smalleek:

[Grendyll]

You forgot to mention that, at this point (A charge requires 10 ft of movement), the Share Spell-feature of the Druid fails, and the Animal Companion does no longer share the spell effect with you. The range for Share Spell is 5 ft, you have to be within 5 ft of your AC at all times during the shared spell's effect.

You can, however, take the Companion Spellbond Feat (PHBII) to extend this range to 30 ft, which makes the Share Spell ability a LOT more useful, and your argument works. However, I figured this was worth mentioning in this case.

Yes you will notice that I mentioned you need to take the Companion Spellbond feat later on to use the companion effectively. However, I think you can make a strong argument that the evaluation of distance should only occur at the beginning and end of your turn. In general, it is possible in real life to walk along beside someone maintaining a close and constant separation distance, but in the turn-based world, that sometimes gets lost as one party leap-frogs the other by 30 or 60 or however many feet of movement they have. The animal and you really act simultaneously, even on the same turn, so if the companion moves then you move to follow and you start and end up 5 or 30 feet apart, you could reasonably argue that you remained close enough to satisfy the requirement the entire time.

[Thespianus]

Yes you will notice that I mentioned you need to take the Companion Spellbond feat later on to use the companion effectively.
Man, you're quick. ;) I throught I was fast in getting my EDIT-entry up there, but yeah, I do apologize one more time. :)


The animal and you really act simultaneously, even on the same turn, so if the companion moves then you move to follow and you start and end up 5 or 30 feet apart, you could reasonably argue that you remained close enough to satisfy the requirement the entire time.
I thought the AC acted on it's own initiative, but maybe that's me not checking the rules properly. Anyway, I'm sorry I tl;dr-ed your post. I missed the mention of Spellbond Companion at the end.

[Grendyll]

I thought the AC acted on it's own initiative, but maybe that's me not checking the rules properly. Anyway, I'm sorry I tl;dr-ed your post. I missed the mention of Spellbond Companion at the end.

Yeah I guess I have seen this played both ways and shouldn't make assumptions. Reading the Handle Animal skill it talks about Rangers and Druids being able to "handle" their animal as a free action directing it to do things on their action. But I have seen some DMs prefer to set companions on their own initiative. Of course, quite often in those games I find the player eventually ends up with the companion delaying to act immediately after the druid, waiting on the druid to give instructions in combat. A lot of times it is easier to treat the companion like a mount (often the druid rides his companion anyway) and they generally receive the "act on your turn" treatment in the rules.

[Kantolin]

As an interesting druid comparison, we had an elven druid who went into the... I believe it's 'Master of Radiance' prestige class? From the Libris Mortis, lets you shoot light lazers. For the relevance of this discussion, it progresses spellcasting but not wild shape.

His feats were then all over the place. Zero were in melee combat - he had point blank shot and another archery feat, some spellcasting metamagics (Extend was one, primarily for call lightning), and other feats of that sort. He started off generally shooting light lazers at things, then staying as a small animal and shooting lazers, and then spent most of his time at the end turning into various strong-seeming four-legged monster-manual-one animals like bears and lions, later dinosaurs.

That party had a psychic warrior, and a dragon shaman. Both were focused on hitting things, the latter had several very powerful weapons for his level which helped him with damage.

And while both of those two tended to outdamage the druid... uh, the druid kept up with everyone and contributed well, despite /zero/ of his feats going into 'I can fight in melee'.

A feature in there was that we all were underequipped for the majority of the campaign - we got very little actual money, and pretty much every neat thing we had were weapons for the dragon shaman (Or Paladin, but our paladin was an archer and thus is a little different). But with or without that, the druid was able to contribute about as well as the psychic warrior and dragon shaman, both of whom were putting a healthy amount of effort into being physically capable and were noticably more optimized.

Newbieproof it may not be, but I mean... really, zero of his feats were for melee combat until level 15, and he was still a very valuable member of our party. He did start using self-buffs after awhile, though, and did leap on shapechange the moment he hit 9ths (and was psyched, much like our miracle-using cleric), so after awhile he was doing mroe optimal things, but... really, zero feats on melee, was quite good.

Edit: As a couple quick extras, the 'searing light' from the master of radiance which was the excitement he had for going into the class spent a lot of time being punished by the DM as we ran into a rather large amount of creatures who were 'immune to light'. In addition, he ran through his animal companions like water and thus frequently did not have one at all, and usually it wasn't very relevant (the latter fact changed rather fiercely when he got shapechange, though).

[lord_khaine]

Oh, the tools exist! I'm not denying that! All I'm saying is that we have to tell people to look for them.

Seriously.

That's it.

I could find literally hundreds of posts, to people coming here for Druid advice, that imply that Natural Spell is all you need to know about. And that's simply not true, not if you want to engage in melee combat. Wild Dragonhide Fullplate is great! Wildling Clasps are great! But we can't expect everyone to find those or realize their significance on their own.

Because a Druid who isn't using either and tries to bite face may well never live long enough to learn their lesson. Again, damage calculations of even-CR threats against a Wildshaped Druid with no special protections are often in the insta-gib category. That's... not a fun place to be.


I do agree a 100% with this, it really seems a lot of people are forgetting how insanely much information there is for a new player to absorb just in the core books.


Sonofzeal, it seems to me that you are talking about players who are just plain bad, not simply newbies. Many new players are smart enough to read through the spell list, for example.

And how much do you think its going to help a new player if he reads though the spell list?
We are kinda assuming he is level 5, since he has wildshape, so do try and take a look at how many different spells he has access to.

Then realise that it wont help him that much, an experienced player can look though a list of new spells, and usualy sort out the bad and the brokenly good because he has a basis of comparison.

A new player on the other hand will simply get confused by some of the things that looks good.

[Skaven]

I can confirm that Druids aren't newbieproof.

Example? Myself. My second or third character ever?

Kobold Druid. Invested his feats in Two-weapon fighting, after he killed a drow scimitar-ranger (hey, our DM was new too) and took his weapons. Never wildshaped in combat, instead used his "fantastic" combat power, consisting of Weapon Finesse, TWF and Oversized TWF (to use drow weapons).

Two attacks per turn! 20 dexterity! Craaaaaaa-aaaazy.

My companion was a riding dog. You know, to ride on.

Why didn't I build him as a ranger, you ask? Because I wanted to be a druid, that's why!

Oh god I did the same thing with my first character too, Half-Elf Druid with dual scimitars taking the entire TFW line. *blush* So embarrassing to think about too.

[Eldariel]

Oh god I did the same thing with my first character too, Half-Elf Druid with dual scimitars taking the entire TFW line. *blush* So embarrassing to think about too.

Well, this is why we can't use new players as a baseline for anything. The system isn't very kind to inexperienced players far as power curve goes. My first 3.0/3.5 character was a Fighter 6/Wizard 1/Arcane Archer 5/Spellsword 3 (we only got Complete Warrior way late in the game; basically the character started with Core 3.0 and then kept up with update and with what books the group got) specializing in TWF/THF with a Two-Bladed Sword & Archery. I managed to figure out splashing all elemental traits on a single weapon was a good idea to a degree vs. non-resistant opponents so I was able to deal some decent damage with what was practically an NPC Warrior with some trinkets (until we fought some Demons anyways) and 1 lower BAB.

Anything a new player alone is gonna build is probably gonna suck unless they get superlucky (and this game has so many traps, especially in feats; if you think "I want a hardy Warrior" and go Fighter with Toughnesses and Endurance, you're unfortunately going to have a surprise coming up). Tho if they do pick a full prepared caster, at least once they figure stuff out, they can adjust what spells they prepare to what works.

[Keneth]

My first ever 3rd ed character was a druid, it was smooth sailing all the way. Although admittedly the DM was just as inexperienced as me, I might have struggled a bit at the start otherwise. But in the end I ended up killing the tarrasque (almost) singlehandedly and made a shield from its hide, so yeah, it's possible to make a bad druid, but it doesn't take a genius to make a very decent one.

[sonofzeal]

Oh god I did the same thing with my first character too, Half-Elf Druid with dual scimitars taking the entire TFW line. *blush* So embarrassing to think about too.
My second character was a Gnome Druid who fought from the back of her Riding Dog with a Gnome Hooked Hammer. I read through the various spells, and picked out two different lists - one was intended for outdoor survival with Goodberries and Longstrider featuring prominently, and the other was for indoors utility with Spider Climb and Faerie Fire. I think my big offensive spell was "Magic Stone". This is what teenage-me thought would make my Druid most effective.

So yeah, I'm not immune either. Not that the character was terrible, but I was going in too many different directions and didn't actually understand what I needed to do to stay relevant, especially in combat. Magic Stone sounded like a cool thing to be doing - take stones off the ground and enchant them into potent projectiles - but the result is piddling and has nothing to really recommend it. It took me surprisingly long to figure out that Produce Flames was better in almost every way.

I wasn't terrible, and I didn't die... but I was playing at lvl 3-4 and never got to use Wildshape on that character. If I had, I would almost certainly have gone with a wolf form (that character had a huge wolf theme), and would likely have thought of it mostly as a utility skill.

My next Druid was far better. Produce Flame was his primary offence this time, and even plinking I remember the DM getting frustrated. I'd virtually never miss, few things would hit me (I had great AC in my normal body), and even 1d6+X per round adds up. The DM even pulled me aside eventually and we had a talk about maybe nerfing the spell. I think we eventually concluded that I had been forgetting the shooting-into-melee penalty... but even adding that back in didn't change much of anything.

Then I got Wildshape, turned into a Leopard, went to pounce somebody, and got ripped to shreds before I'd even landed. Instagibbed, splattered, game over. A party member was partially responsible, he was mind-controlled into turning on me, but we figured out afterwards that I would have died just fine and dandy even without that.

It's just about the only time I've lost a character to something other than plot. I tend to play fairly carefully... but that time, there was nothing I could do. I got separated from most of the party, the guy with me was a mole, and we ran straight into an archer ambush and I flubbed my initiative.



So that's my story. It's so long ago that I hardly even remember it; I'm not even sure of the second one's name anymore. But I very definitely remember the failed druids I've DMed for or played beside more recently. There's Snowy, the Elven Druid who turned into Polar Bears and died a lot. Faren, the Elven Druid pacifist with split personalities who rarely engaged in combat. Her friend (played by her sister, but I can't remember the character's name) who took point against a small squad of orcs and died in the first round. I remember a friend of mine who insisted on Druid for her first character, and never actually cast any spells except Cure Light Wounds. In a recent game I saw Hobbes, a Druid/Wizard/Arcane.Heirophant who had spells coming out the wazoo but who figured out almost immediately that Wildshape was a death sentence for him in combat, and I believe only ever used it once.

I'm fully aware of the power of Druids. I played one in Core Coliseum for a while, and had a pretty much undefeated streak going. I played another in a one-off, and always had a spell on-hand to deal with every situation that came up, and augmented ashbound summons all over the place. Druids are fantastically flexible, truly great utility characters and Battlefield Controllers. I've used them effectively, and I've seen them used effectively.

But all the most effective Druids I've seen have been played as mages, not as warriors. And while I know how Druids can be turned into effective warriors (I personally have a soft spot for VoP Saint Monk1/Druid17, although it isn't entirely optimal), my experience at every turn, combined with my statistical analysis, suggests that doing so successfully requires at least a moderate degree of skill and knowledge, and isn't something a casual player is going to pick up by themselves with any regularity.

Some will, and there's some success stories in this thread. There's some brutally effective Druid builds here too.

But we can't count on that happening by itself. So when someone asks about making a Druid - and that's a conversation that seems to come up around here about as often as "why are/aren't Monks overpowered" - do please set them on the right path.

[Taelas]

And how much do you think its going to help a new player if he reads though the spell list?
We are kinda assuming he is level 5, since he has wildshape, so do try and take a look at how many different spells he has access to.

Then realise that it wont help him that much, an experienced player can look though a list of new spells, and usualy sort out the bad and the brokenly good because he has a basis of comparison.

A new player on the other hand will simply get confused by some of the things that looks good.

A smart player can, even if he is new to D&D 3.5, figure out which spells are good and which are bad entirely on his own.

Is it "guaranteed"? No, but neither is him being bad simply because he's new.

A spell like barkskin is a no-brainer for a character lacking AC. So is cat's grace.

There is nothing at all odd about buying leather armor for your bear form; you just need help donning it. There is no dodgy interpretation needed; animals can wear barding just fine. Magical items are a different story altogether, especially if they are taking slots it makes no sense for the animal form to have, such as finger slots for rings, or hand slots for gloves. (Though again, vanilla magical leather armor is fine, as long as you follow the rules for unusual creatures.)

[Kantolin]

Then I got Wildshape, turned into a Leopard, went to pounce somebody, and got ripped to shreds before I'd even landed. Instagibbed, splattered, game over. A party member was partially responsible, he was mind-controlled into turning on me, but we figured out afterwards that I would have died just fine and dandy even without that.

Wait a minute - in your groups, someone with a d8 for hit points can frequently get 'ripped to shreds before landing' and this is a consistent thing?

That's actually kind of scary. In mine, hit points alone mean a druid can go melee things and it's tolerable to do so - any enemy who was that deadly to a druid would be pretty much that deadly for the poor fighter, especially without a shield. Especially since druids have a second, more expendible frontliner to help him out and soak some damage.

I mean... in the previous example, the psychic warrior had tended to be the 'best tank' despite lousy AC due to not really having much gear. The druid and the dragon shaman both were then second, due again to hit points as well as armours. These are people with d8s.

Anything that could one round the druid could probably do very similarly to everyone else - at best, two round? So yigads, if your low-op druid is dying to enemy encounters in one, then I think the encounters are higher-op than the party can really handle - and I've played a metric ton of fighters with low armoured d8ers in the party.

<Not barbarians, though, so if that d12 makes that significant of a difference that'd explain it>

I suppose - instead of wild shaping and going into combat, would you have been significantly better had you been wearing full plate and a two handed weapon? Especially given you can afford to have a lower strength and dexterity with the wild shaping, and go heal yourself if things go south?

I mean, yeesh... I'd imagine that anyone would die horribly if routine hits were for over 3/4 of your health (d8 vs d10), that's a lot closer to rocket tag than I'm used to. :P That sounds like the statement is 'stop using melee attacks, you die for it'.

[Tyndmyr]

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you here and say that I do, in fact, believe that Druids are Newbie Proof. At least moreso than any other class, because entire class features are more powerful than other classes.

Even if you only focus on one aspect of the class and ignore the rest, making decent choices to improve that one aspect of the class will make your Druid a viable character. That's just how good they are.

You can't just assume that all newbies make every imaginable wrong choice. That's not true, and it doesn't prove your point. Every class can be taken to obscenely low levels of optimization, but that often takes deliberately bad choices. Even a cursory reading of the class, spells, and feats should put the player in the right place for some decent choices.

This is pretty fair. A druid can be a buffer, a healer, a blaster, melee, etc. They might or might not use wildshape at all. Or their animal companion. They can miss stuff and still be competent.

TBH, it's like familiars for casters. They'll probably mess them up, or ignore them entirely after they slap on whatever bonus for the one they picked, or treat it like a cute, non combat pet. That's cool. Wiz/Sorc are not at all shabby even if you do this. But picking spells is something new players do badly at. Divine casters are a LOT friendlier to newbies in this regard, as it requires absolutely nothing changed for them to use a new, better spell when they find it. Hell, spont heals on clerics help prevent them from wasting all their spell slots on heals.

Druid and Cleric are the two hardest to mess up classes in core. They should turn out pretty useful even if you miss things. A cleric that you forgot to pick domains for, and entirely ignore turning on still has a fair amount of hp, full plate, probably a weapon, and a pile of spells.

[lord_khaine]

A smart player can, even if he is new to D&D 3.5, figure out which spells are good and which are bad entirely on his own.

Is it "guaranteed"? No, but neither is him being bad simply because he's new.

But thats the point you seems to be missing, he isnt bad, he is just simply new.

The reason im agreeing with SOZ is that i have actualy seen what he is talking about, first hand and only some months ago, when i startet playing with some new players.

One of them is totaly new, and though he is a smart guy (mathematical university student of some sort), then he is still not able to instantly master the complicatet system of character generation.
For being smart just helps you learn the system faster, but that alone really isnt enough, you need experience to tell you what to look for.


Druid and Cleric are the two hardest to mess up classes in core. They should turn out pretty useful even if you miss things. A cleric that you forgot to pick domains for, and entirely ignore turning on still has a fair amount of hp, full plate, probably a weapon, and a pile of spells.

Ahh, we did allready hear about a very simple way to screw up a druid, all you have to do is to wildshape into a bear, before then entering melee.

[Taelas]

But thats the point you seems to be missing, he isnt bad, he is just simply new.
No, see, that's the part you seem to be missing. "Bad" and "new" are not mutually exclusive concepts. You can be both new and bad at the same time. As a corollary, you can be new and good at the same time. It is far rarer, but it is entirely possible.


One of them is totaly new, and though he is a smart guy (mathematical university student of some sort), then he is still not able to instantly master the complicatet system of character generation.
For being smart just helps you learn the system faster, but that alone really isnt enough, you need experience to tell you what to look for.
There are several things here which do not really have anything to do with the point. For one thing, a smart guy does not necessarily make a smart player (and vice versa). There are many different ways to be intelligent.

Also, understanding the rules well also does not make you a smart player (though a smart player can use that understanding to support his play).

It is entirely possible to intuitively understand which spells are good and which spells are bad, even if you are unfamiliar with the rules. For example, if you know you need more armor class, you look at the spells which provide a bonus to armor class. This is not something that requires system knowledge (beyond the assumption that spells exist which provides such a bonus, but the DM should tell him that if he expresses a desire to increase his AC).

Also, most of the system knowledge necessary for these things are right there in the books. It does not take a rocket scientist to read the Player's Handbook and the Monster Manual.


Ahh, we did allready hear about a very simple way to screw up a druid, all you have to do is to wildshape into a bear, before then entering melee.
This does not "screw up a druid". In sonofzeal's example, in my opinion, it was not because he used wild shape that he was killed -- it was because he was separated from his party and ambushed, and he just so happened to use his wild shape for the first time in that situation. Class had little to do with that, it seems to me.

Wild shape is extremely powerful and versatile, and I have always seen it used in many different ways.

[candycorn]

Spell selection really does have no excuse. Most new players refer to the overview section of the PHB (and possibly the Spell Compendium, if informed of it in advance).

If such a player was level 5, and had experienced being hit a few times, and found that he's hit more often than his friends, then he's going to look at the overview for Druid: Spell levels 1-3.

When he does, he'll see:

Barkskin: Grants +2 (or higher) enhancement to natural armor.
Cat’s Grace: Subject gains +4 to Dex for 1 min./level.

This is basic. If he looks in Spell Compendium also (let's say the wizard in the party has pulled some spells out of it, and suggests the new player take a glance)...

Foundation of Stone: +2 AC and other stuff
Spiderskin: Subject gains increasing bonus to natural armor bonus and other stuff

Such a player doesn't need to troll the books. All they need to do is look at the overviews for something they feel they need, and then look up specifics. If they're reasonably accomplished at finding books in a library or looking up what movie that guy from Crank played that badass delivery guy in...

Then they're qualified.

[Zombimode]

Also, most of the system knowledge necessary for these things are right there in the books. It does not take a rocket scientist to read the Player's Handbook and the Monster Manual.

Emphasis mine. You've nailed it here. Reading the books is the one thing many 'new' players dont do. And many of them wont do it even after years of playing.

[Taelas]

But smart players will.

[lord_khaine]

No, see, that's the part you seem to be missing. "Bad" and "new" are not mutually exclusive concepts. You can be both new and bad at the same time. As a corollary, you can be new and good at the same time. It is far rarer, but it is entirely possible.

No, being bad or being new will give the same result in the end, you cant magicaly come to understand d&d at a higher level of play just because you read though the rulebooks a couple of times.


There are several things here which do not really have anything to do with the point. For one thing, a smart guy does not necessarily make a smart player (and vice versa). There are many different ways to be intelligent.

Also, understanding the rules well also does not make you a smart player (though a smart player can use that understanding to support his play).

Actualy, yes it does, this is a very smart player, but thats not enough on its own.

And understanding the rules might not make you into a smart player, but it is a requirement for becoming one.


It is entirely possible to intuitively understand which spells are good and which spells are bad, even if you are unfamiliar with the rules. For example, if you know you need more armor class, you look at the spells which provide a bonus to armor class. This is not something that requires system knowledge (beyond the assumption that spells exist which provides such a bonus, but the DM should tell him that if he expresses a desire to increase his AC).

And now you picked one of the most simple tasks imaginable as an example, but firstly it still requires the player to realise that he needs a higher armor class, he might instead have chosen to buff his con to gain more HP.


Also, most of the system knowledge necessary for these things are right there in the books. It does not take a rocket scientist to read the Player's Handbook and the Monster Manual.

No, but it does take a rocket scientiest to actualy sift though all that information, and extract the nececary part in one go.


This does not "screw up a druid". In sonofzeal's example, in my opinion, it was not because he used wild shape that he was killed -- it was because he was separated from his party and ambushed, and he just so happened to use his wild shape for the first time in that situation. Class had little to do with that, it seems to me.

Then you didnt read all the examples, im refering to the one where he points out just how fragile the elven druid example is.


Spell selection really does have no excuse. Most new players refer to the overview section of the PHB (and possibly the Spell Compendium, if informed of it in advance).

As i said before, this does require the player to both understand what he needs, and not get distractet by something else thats more shiny, like fx bulls strenght.


Such a player doesn't need to troll the books. All they need to do is look at the overviews for something they feel they need, and then look up specifics. If they're reasonably accomplished at finding books in a library or looking up what movie that guy from Crank played that badass delivery guy in...

Then they're qualified.

No they are not, this still requires them to understand what they are missing, and its only in the supersimple example of wanting to raise your ac that the overview will really help.

Even then, those 2 spells dont last very long, and a singel one of them wont make the elven Druid from SOZ's example survive a close encounter with something around her CR.

[Amphetryon]

Emphasis mine. You've nailed it here. Reading the books is the one thing many 'new' players dont do. And many of them wont do it even after years of playing.
I'm a little troubled by this like of thought; it points to a belief that there should have been no CharOp section of the WotC boards for a very long time, since new players were all there were, and they're excluded from the competency necessary to make good choices. That, or it indicates a belief that only the original grognards of CharOp were able to notice what's good vs. what's bad, and the ability somehow was lost after that unless folks were exposed to the boards or experienced players.

I can't really support those beliefs, personally. If that's not what you meant, by all means, help me understand your position.

[flumphy]

There was a time when D&D was the first RPG most people played. However, this hasn't been true for years. Basically everyone under the age of 30 grew up on Final Fantasy and other CRPGs and has seen firsthand that some character builds are inherently better than others. Most people who could be convinced to even try tabletop have almost certainly played WoW or other MMOs, where you basically have to do at least some rudimentary skimming of theorycrafting each patch to avoid getting booted from every instance you run for sucking.

Saying that it never occurs to new D&D players to min-max is being naive. They may be too lazy to min-max and just show up for the beer and pretzels, but there's no way they don't know that digging through the sourcebooks isn't a good idea.

Now, there's no doubt that D&D has some traps that a newbie wouldn't initially spot. I'm just not sure wildshape qualifies, since there are ways to make it effective without too much effort. Unless your criteria for "effective" so high that you consider all core melee classes to also be traps...

[Zombimode]

I'm a little troubled by this like of thought; it points to a belief that there should have been no CharOp section of the WotC boards for a very long time, since new players were all there were, and they're excluded from the competency necessary to make good choices. That, or it indicates a belief that only the original grognards of CharOp were able to notice what's good vs. what's bad, and the ability somehow was lost after that unless folks were exposed to the boards or experienced players.

I can't really support those beliefs, personally. If that's not what you meant, by all means, help me understand your position.

Its not a position, but the impression I got from my own experiences at the table and from reading campaign logs (Saph's, Silver Claw Shift's, Aslan Cross'; you know the deal). Most DMs can consider them lucky if half the players know what they are doing. Many, maybe even most, gamers have only a passing knowledge of the rules, enough to get through a session whithout to much asking, but sometimes even less. Years of gaming doesnt change this.

For many players reading stuff, learning rules and trying to master the system is just not interesting enough. Getting together with friends is great, as is following a stroy, exploring a setting or just bashing monsters and takin' their stuff. But reading something inbetween sessions? Nah...
It seems to me that this type of 'causal' gamer is the kind SonOfZeal has in mind, and I think that is relevant. Those type of gamers seems to be rather common.

[flumphy]

For many players reading stuff, learning rules and trying to master the system is just not interesting enough. Getting together with friends is great, as is following a stroy, exploring a setting or just bashing monsters and takin' their stuff. But reading something inbetween sessions? Nah...
It seems to me that this type of 'causal' gamer is the kind SonOfZeal has in mind, and I think that is relevant. Those type of gamers seems to be rather common.

Exactly. Laziness. This does not mean they don't know they could do better if they tried. (Not that just playing casually and however you find fun is bad. It's a game, after all.)

[sonofzeal]

Wait a minute - in your groups, someone with a d8 for hit points can frequently get 'ripped to shreds before landing' and this is a consistent thing?

That's actually kind of scary. In mine, hit points alone mean a druid can go melee things and it's tolerable to do so - any enemy who was that deadly to a druid would be pretty much that deadly for the poor fighter, especially without a shield. Especially since druids have a second, more expendible frontliner to help him out and soak some damage.

I mean... in the previous example, the psychic warrior had tended to be the 'best tank' despite lousy AC due to not really having much gear. The druid and the dragon shaman both were then second, due again to hit points as well as armours. These are people with d8s.

Anything that could one round the druid could probably do very similarly to everyone else - at best, two round? So yigads, if your low-op druid is dying to enemy encounters in one, then I think the encounters are higher-op than the party can really handle - and I've played a metric ton of fighters with low armoured d8ers in the party.

<Not barbarians, though, so if that d12 makes that significant of a difference that'd explain it>

I suppose - instead of wild shaping and going into combat, would you have been significantly better had you been wearing full plate and a two handed weapon? Especially given you can afford to have a lower strength and dexterity with the wild shaping, and go heal yourself if things go south?

I mean, yeesh... I'd imagine that anyone would die horribly if routine hits were for over 3/4 of your health (d8 vs d10), that's a lot closer to rocket tag than I'm used to. :P That sounds like the statement is 'stop using melee attacks, you die for it'.
- I'm sure that I didn't have more than 36 hp. This was lvl 5, remember, and I think my Con was about 12-14.

- I was already partially wounded when the encounter began, maybe 27/36. Nobody else in the group had healing magic, I'd already used my prepped healing on a party member who'd dropped against traps, my wand was inaccessible since it was merged with me, and it didn't seem that crucial at the time.

- I got hit by every attack. This was the big one. There was a cluster of Yuan-Ti archers, every attack hit, and I think at least one crit for x3 damage.


You say anything deadly to the Druid would have been equally deadly to the Fighter, but that's simply not true. As Tordek (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20000626d) illustrated for us, a standard unoptimized Fighter should be expected to have 22-24 armor by level 5. But the Druid in Leopard form is going to have 15, pretty much regardless of build. And I was flatfooted since I flubbed my initiative, so 11. Even base Yuan-Ti archers have a better than even chance to hit that, and to confirm any criticals. They rolled well against me, but they didn't need to roll that well. But against anyone in Fullplate, we're looking at massively decreased odds.

One of them rolled a 20. That happens. The chance of the crit confirming and the other four all hitting me was 32.8%; I was unlucky, but it wasn't unreasonable. Against Tordek, even at lvl 4, the chance of that happening 0.2%. That's completely implausible. Characters shouldn't have to worry about events that implausible.

And with 7d8 damage coming my way, that's an average of 31 damage. Enough to easily drop me, or even kill me if they rolled damage as well as they rolled attacks. I think I got CDG'd though, not that it matters.


THAT'S the difference between Druids and Fighters. It's the difference between a 32.8% chance of death, and a 0.2%. I took 7d8 damage; the Fighter might have taken 3d8, and even that would have been about as unlucky as the roll against me. Heck, even if one of them had missed I still had pretty goods of dropping, and the chance of them rolling four hits out of five is pretty darn good. If anyone actually wants the math on that one it'll have to wait, cause I'm running out the door.

I can run through some other scenarios if you like, but this is about the 3rd I've done in this thread, and every single one ended with a dead Druid against reasonable CR encounters.



(Yes, I know Yuan-Ti are supposed to be CR 3, but Yuan-Ti are massively over-CR'd. CR 1/2 Elven Warriors could have done about the same for the purpose of this example. The chance of them all hitting is lower, about 11%, but that's only an EL 3 encounter.)

[Coidzor]

What the hell was going on that the archers all AoO'd you to death before you could complete a charge?

[Stubbed Tongue]

- I'm sure that I didn't have more than 36 hp. This was lvl 5, remember, and I think my Con was about 12-14.

- I was already partially wounded when the encounter began, maybe 27/36. Nobody else in the group had healing magic, I'd already used my prepped healing on a party member who'd dropped against traps, my wand was inaccessible since it was merged with me, and it didn't seem that crucial at the time.

- I got hit by every attack. This was the big one. There was a cluster of Yuan-Ti archers, every attack hit, and I think at least one crit for x3 damage.


You say anything deadly to the Druid would have been equally deadly to the Fighter, but that's simply not true. As Tordek (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20000626d) illustrated for us, a standard unoptimized Fighter should be expected to have 22-24 armor by level 5. But the Druid in Leopard form is going to have 15, pretty much regardless of build. And I was flatfooted since I flubbed my initiative, so 11. Even base Yuan-Ti archers have a better than even chance to hit that, and to confirm any criticals. They rolled well against me, but they didn't need to roll that well. But against anyone in Fullplate, we're looking at massively decreased odds.

One of them rolled a 20. That happens. The chance of the crit confirming and the other four all hitting me was 32.8%; I was unlucky, but it wasn't unreasonable. Against Tordek, even at lvl 4, the chance of that happening 0.2%. That's completely implausible. Characters shouldn't have to worry about events that implausible.

And with 7d8 damage coming my way, that's an average of 31 damage. Enough to easily drop me, or even kill me if they rolled damage as well as they rolled attacks. I think I got CDG'd though, not that it matters.


THAT'S the difference between Druids and Fighters. It's the difference between a 32.8% chance of death, and a 0.2%. I took 7d8 damage; the Fighter might have taken 3d8, and even that would have been about as unlucky as the roll against me. Heck, even if one of them had missed I still had pretty goods of dropping, and the chance of them rolling four hits out of five is pretty darn good. If anyone actually wants the math on that one it'll have to wait, cause I'm running out the door.

I can run through some other scenarios if you like, but this is about the 3rd I've done in this thread, and every single one ended with a dead Druid against reasonable CR encounters.



(Yes, I know Yuan-Ti are supposed to be CR 3, but Yuan-Ti are massively over-CR'd. CR 1/2 Elven Warriors could have done about the same for the purpose of this example. The chance of them all hitting is lower, about 11%, but that's only an EL 3 encounter.)

I think your DM kind of made a mistake here. According to initiative the entire round is supposed to happen simultaneously(as I'm sure you know). I(as DM) would have split up the init of the yuan-ti so as to let you, the player, still have a chance. Unless they were drilled to all fire their arrows at the same time. Perhaps it's just different DM styles...

Anyways, it's a minor point but all I really have to add, aside from agreeing with you. I've played druid builds and they aren't what they are cracked up to be. The poor wildshape AC will be the death of you.

[Gavinfoxx]

Does NO ONE use Barding or wilding armor or long duration buffs??

[Stubbed Tongue]

Does NO ONE use Barding or wilding armor or long duration buffs??

What if was the second or third fight of the day?

Can't expect the druid to be all 'uber' in every combat. That just doesn't happen.

[MukkTB]

Hmm. My group is pretty bad in terms of skill. We don't optimize well, and aren't masters of the rules.

I DM'd a desert campaign a while back. We had a barbarian/cleric, a monk, and my uncle played a druid. The campaign started at 1 and went t level 9ish.

My Uncle used a scimitar. He had an eagle animal companion that he used as lookout and recon. He never shapechanged and he spent most of his time being a caster. Some fire spells, a little healing, some buffs and debuffs.

He definitely outperformed the other two players. Its hard to screw up a druid so they aren't useful at all. A noobie who makes many bad choices won't make a druid who is dead weight. If the druid is going to die horribly then other equally unoptimized characters will also die horribly. If the issue is just that wildshape alone doesn't make a very useful character and wildshape + natural spell doesn't make a fighter I would agree.

"Druids are noobie proof," is fairly true. I would rather have a noob made druid in my party than an empty slot. I would rather not have a noob made monk in my party than an empty slot. Not unless the options were solo or w/ monk. In which case the monk's job would be to die horribly in place of me. The noob Druid is going to be useful. Even a scout animal companion is very nice to have. Even if he ignores wildshape he has 3/4 base attack and an OK weapon. He's gonna have some available healing and access to magic for when we need to solve a problem.

On the other hand the monk is going to make a couple puny attacks a turn and eat my XPs.

[candycorn]

No they are not, this still requires them to understand what they are missing, and its only in the supersimple example of wanting to raise your ac that the overview will really help.

Even then, those 2 spells dont last very long, and a singel one of them wont make the elven Druid from SOZ's example survive a close encounter with something around her CR.
You're absolutely right.

However, a party will. A beginning character, regardless of class, is not reasonably expected to solo a CR-appropriate encounter.

And it's not supersimple, at least, not for a new player. Such a player will get hit several times, and then note that low AC is a detriment. Then, that character will possibly use spells to boost.

At level 5, let's look at a black bear.

Assume the druid has cast barkskin. AC goes up to 15. Not that great, true.
Compare to a Dire Lion.

Dire lion, on a charge, will likely hit for 2d6+1d8+17. Average damage 28.
Such a lion will likely hit a level 5 barbarian for the same. That's pretty nasty, true. If the druid leads the charge, that character will likely not fare well. However, if that druid is in bear form behind other characters, likely not. A modestly optimized party will do 60 damage in about 2 rounds, at this level.

Assume Warblade with 18 strength, and greatsword, in punishing stance, doing Rabid wolf strike. Attack +13 for 5d6+6 (hit on a 2, for 23.5 average damage).

Assume Wizard 5 with scorching ray. 4d6 fire damage (+5-6 to hit, vs touch AC 9 after that charge, average damage 14)

Assume human Rogue 5, flanking, with a shortsword attack. 4d6+1 damage (Attack +8-9 vs AC 13 after the charge, average damage 15)

Assume Druid in bear form, with wolf companion.

(Attack +9 flanking) vs that AC 13. Damage 1d4+4 (average 6.5 damage)
Wolf companion (Attack +8 Flanking) vs that AC 13. Damage 1d6+2 (average 5.5 damage).

Total damage after 1 round, assuming all hit? 64.5 damage, which would drop the lion in one round. If the druid is hit and dropped into negatives? Well, that's 25% of resources. Ideally, if the player survives to wild shape, they'll know that they're not built to take the first hit, just from the 40-50 encounters they've gone through.

So yes, the druid here isn't the star performer. Wildshape doesn't really come into its own until level 8, when large creatures can be chosen. Polar Bears and Dire Lions fare much better, on the offense, and the DM/players have hopefully steered the new player to Natural Spell.

The above assumed one character modestly optimized for damage (Warblade). It also assumed an evocation wizard (least effective option there), and a vanilla rogue (no craven, no TWF, no ranged sneak attacking, etc).

It also assumes the encounter begins with the lion going first, having an unobstructed path to the party, and possibly targeting the druid first.

And still, not much problem. Note: If the wizard, or the rogue had been charged by the lion, they'd be bleeding out too, at this level. The only one that would survive such a charge is the warblade.

[sonofzeal]

Does NO ONE use Barding or wilding armor or long duration buffs??
Druids get exactly two Core buffs that I know of for AC (three if you count Cat's Grace). NONE of them have a duration of hours/lvl.

I was lvl 5. Barkskin gives me +2 AC, and lasts for less than an hour. We'd done a decent amount of adventuring that day already. Exactly which "long duration buff" was supposed to save my life?


Hmm. My group is pretty bad in terms of skill. We don't optimize well, and aren't masters of the rules.

I DM'd a desert campaign a while back. We had a barbarian/cleric, a monk, and my uncle played a druid. The campaign started at 1 and went t level 9ish.

My Uncle used a scimitar. He had an eagle animal companion that he used as lookout and recon. He never shapechanged and he spent most of his time being a caster. Some fire spells, a little healing, some buffs and debuffs.

He definitely outperformed the other two players. Its hard to screw up a druid so they aren't useful at all. A noobie who makes many bad choices won't make a druid who is dead weight. If the druid is going to die horribly then other equally unoptimized characters will also die horribly. If the issue is just that wildshape alone doesn't make a very useful character and wildshape + natural spell doesn't make a fighter I would agree.

"Druids are noobie proof," is fairly true. I would rather have a noob made druid in my party than an empty slot. I would rather not have a noob made monk in my party than an empty slot. Not unless the options were solo or w/ monk. In which case the monk's job would be to die horribly in place of me. The noob Druid is going to be useful. Even a scout animal companion is very nice to have. Even if he ignores wildshape he has 3/4 base attack and an OK weapon. He's gonna have some available healing and access to magic for when we need to solve a problem.

On the other hand the monk is going to make a couple puny attacks a turn and eat my XPs.
Your uncle was playing a Druid the safest, easiest way - as a primary caster. Druids are great at that, and I'm not at all surprised your uncle succeeded despite suboptimal choices in his other areas.

That's not newbieproof though; he just avoided the trap.

[Taelas]

Druids get exactly two Core buffs that I know of for AC (three if you count Cat's Grace). NONE of them have a duration of hours/lvl.

I was lvl 5. Barkskin gives me +2 AC, and lasts for less than an hour. We'd done a decent amount of adventuring that day already. Exactly which "long duration buff" was supposed to save my life?

Wild shape is not the reason you died. You died because you had taken damage already, had no defensive buffs left, and you were alone against seven Yuan-ti archers. I don't get what you are trying to prove with this.

[sonofzeal]

Wild shape is not the reason you died. You died because you had taken damage already, had no defensive buffs left, and you were alone against seven Yuan-ti archers. I don't get what you are trying to prove with this.
- PCs can reasonably expect to enter fights at less than max health on a regular basis. Starting a fight at 75% hp shouldn't be a cause for death.

- Druids simply don't get much in the way of defensive buffs, and none are all-day affairs. Again, this should not be a cause of death unless you think the Druid class is bad for lacking these.

- There were five archers, not seven. One of them crit, remember? And I wasn't alone. But yes, it's a fairly dire example. See my previous analysis of Druid vs Troll or Druid vs Orc Horde for better ones against level-appropriate enemies with party support.

- I shared a list of anecdotes earlier, and someone protested about one of them. I clarified. Had my Druid been in humanoid form, he would have at least survived long enough to DO something about the situation; running away past a corner would have been a good start. I was incautious and got him into an admittedly bad situation, but these things happen. The point was that being in Wildshape as my default state made the situation significantly worse.

[Narren]

I had a player that knew nothing of optimization, but he knew druids were considered powerful. His hawk animal companion was nothing more than flavor, and his scimitar didn't hit as hard as he had hoped. He also only used wild shape, like, three times. And half the time to was just to make good his escape. He did at least have enough sense to take natural spell...but I don't think he used it even once.

[Amphetryon]

Its not a position, but the impression I got from my own experiences at the table and from reading campaign logs (Saph's, Silver Claw Shift's, Aslan Cross'; you know the deal). Most DMs can consider them lucky if half the players know what they are doing. Many, maybe even most, gamers have only a passing knowledge of the rules, enough to get through a session whithout to much asking, but sometimes even less. Years of gaming doesnt change this.

For many players reading stuff, learning rules and trying to master the system is just not interesting enough. Getting together with friends is great, as is following a stroy, exploring a setting or just bashing monsters and takin' their stuff. But reading something inbetween sessions? Nah...
It seems to me that this type of 'causal' gamer is the kind SonOfZeal has in mind, and I think that is relevant. Those type of gamers seems to be rather common.Of those casual gamers who aren't into reading about the game between sessions, do you figure very many will be perusing the forums, or asking for advice on builds? Because, to me, the two are mutually exclusive. The players you're talking about are almost completely absent from the boards, and so the impact of commentary on which classes are best/worst would seem negligible, at best.

Put another way: The players most likely to "mess up" a Druid build consistently, throughout several feat choices and across myriad days praying for spells and animal companions (as opposed to a single bad feat/spell/AC choice), aren't the ones asking for help on the forums. At least, by the time they are, they're usually at the point where they're asking "why is this going worse than I expected?" That's a question we're pretty equipped to handle.

[sonofzeal]

Of those casual gamers who aren't into reading about the game between sessions, do you figure very many will be perusing the forums, or asking for advice on builds? Because, to me, the two are mutually exclusive. The players you're talking about are almost completely absent from the boards, and so the impact of commentary on which classes are best/worst would seem negligible, at best.

Put another way: The players most likely to "mess up" a Druid build consistently, throughout several feat choices and across myriad days praying for spells and animal companions (as opposed to a single bad feat/spell/AC choice), aren't the ones asking for help on the forums. At least, by the time they are, they're usually at the point where they're asking "why is this going worse than I expected?" That's a question we're pretty equipped to handle.
And yet I see people asking about Druids here on a reasonably regular basis.

I think the reason for this is that Druids are almost certainly the most complicated class to learn. Wildshape rules alone are a tangled mess, Animal Companions involve adding multiple racial hitdice at a time, and then you've got all the complexity of a full prepared spellcaster on top of that.

All this means that casual players are more likely to turn to others for advice. And the advice I see given as a matter of course tends to be... subpar.


Take Natural Spell and that's basically all the optimisation you'll ever need.
At level 6, take Natural Spell.

Thats pretty much all you need to do to make a Druid good, really. Its near impossible to screw up a Druid, they are incredibly intuitive.
Druid 20:

Feats:
Basket weaving(1, pre-req for third level feat)

Underwater Basket weaving (3)

Natural Spell (6)

Natural Basket weaving (9, need both natural spell and Underwater Basket weaving for this.)

Focused Basket weaving (12, gives bonus to concentration check if weaving a basket in the middle of a fight.)

Extraplanar Basket weaving (15, otherwise your baskets wouldn't survive a planar shift, should you happen upon one.)

Master Basket weaver (18, your baskets provide a +1 basket bonus when fighting baskets.)
Focus more on wildshaping. He should be wildshaped most of the time.
I agree with that he should focus on wildshaping.
"You've gotten the only feat that really matters, Natural Spell. Now have fun. No matter what you do, you are still going to be more powerful than the rest of the party, except possibly the wizard, put together.

Do not prestige out. Get Natural Spell. Do what looks like fun.

Ta-daa, you're better than any not-fully-optimized character.
I think the general advice is be a bear, riding a bear, shooting bears.
About the only thing you need to do for your druid is to make sure you take Natural Spell at level 6. Everything else is up to you.
Ignore the advice about increasing your Con at 4th level; +2 HP per level is plenty

These were not hard to find. And who were these bits of advice intended for, if not semi-casual or new players? If everyone on these boards is a seasoned vet and knows how to do things right, with Wildling Clasp'd Monks Belts or Dragonhide Fullplate, then pretty much all of these were redundant and pointless. But the people posting these things obviously thought it needed saying.

Either proper technique goes without saying on these boards, in which case we shouldn't bother spamming something everyone knows... or there are people who come here genuinely looking for advice, in which case we can do better for them than a simple pat answer that is very likely to give them the wrong impression.

[Amphetryon]

And yet I see people asking about Druids here on a reasonably regular basis.

I think the reason for this is that Druids are almost certainly the most complicated class to learn. Wildshape rules alone are a tangled mess, Animal Companions involve adding multiple racial hitdice at a time, and then you've got all the complexity of a full prepared spellcaster on top of that.

All this means that casual players are more likely to turn to others for advice. And the advice I see given as a matter of course tends to be... subpar.

These were not hard to find. And who were these bits of advice intended for, if not semi-casual or new players? If everyone on these boards is a seasoned vet and knows how to do things right, with Wildling Clasp'd Monks Belts or Dragonhide Fullplate, then pretty much all of these were redundant and pointless. But the people posting these things obviously thought it needed saying.

Either proper technique goes without saying on these boards, in which case we shouldn't bother spamming something everyone knows... or there are people who come here genuinely looking for advice, in which case we can do better for them than a simple pat answer that is very likely to give them the wrong impression.I could just as easily go and find more in-depth responses for how to properly kit out a Druid, but that's not my point.

As I've said before - in this thread - that amount of advice was all that a complete D&D newbie at my own table needed to be the strongest contributor in the campaign, on two separate occasions, with two different newbie players. It does, in fact, suffice at times. If a person finds that it does not, they can seek out the additional help I alluded to.

However, Zombimode's answer - as I read it - indicated we should be answering questions in a way that folks who never read the forums (because that would be "between-session reading about the character") can benefit from it, or admit that we're doing some sort of disservice to those folks. How can we achieve this, given that they'll never read any advice we put forth? It sounds like an unattainable goal.

Similarly, the idea that we should not posit that Druids are "newbieproof" because (while I find they're considerably harder to screw up beyond hope than any other choice, especially in Core) it's not 100% true, 100% of the time, reads to me as requiring everyone to be so precise with their terminology that there's no possible way whatsoever that anyone could misconstrue or misapply the words. That's a level of specificity I honestly cannot ever recall encountering, in any field, let alone a hobby most of us do for fun.

[candycorn]

I can say Barbarians are incredibly weak, because, at level 3, my Elf Barbarian with 14 Con had 17 HP (my dm had us roll for HP), and was taken out by a goblin Archer arrow crit.

Anecdotal evidence isn't worth all that much.

A player building a barbarian, with a 14 Con (elf), a 16 Strength, and a 16 Dex? At level 3, will have 30 HP. With a chain shirt, AC is a respectable 17 (for a barbarian. When raging, it goes up to 36 HP, and down to AC 15.

Is an incredibly squishy build, because, after a charge, a mounted orc fighter with a 20 strength and a lance charged the barbarian, and crit for 4d8+24 (+7 to hit, vs the charging AC of 13), dealing 42 damage?

Really, if your anecdote involves the enemy critting with a 20/x3 weapon, then I'd say that skews the reliability of the test somewhat.

[sonofzeal]

I can say Barbarians are incredibly weak, because, at level 3, my Elf Barbarian with 14 Con had 17 HP (my dm had us roll for HP), and was taken out by a goblin Archer arrow crit.
One can compute the frequency of such events. A Goblin archer has a +3 to hit. Assuming the Barbarian had chain shirt (no reason he shouldn't have it), and 12-16 Dex given that he's an elf, we're looking at a 16-ish AC even without other items. The goblin's chance of critting is thus (1/20)*(8/20) = 2%. At this point it's important to note that your hypothetical Barbarian is illegal - the lowest possible hp given that Con is 20, barring Frail or similar deliberate self-nerfs. A small-sized longbow only does 1d6 damage, and goblins have a strength penalty so we wouldn't be seeing any bonus damage. Max damage is only 18, and even that is extraordinarily unlikely. The chance of a max damage roll is 0.4%

In short, there's only a 0.009% chance of a goblin archer doing 18 damage to your elf barbarian, and even that doesn't drop them.


Anecdotal evidence isn't worth all that much.
No it isn't. But it can form the foundation of much more solid statistical analysis. Again, see my look at Druid+Party vs Troll, or vs Orc Horde, for examples of non-anecdotal evidence.

[candycorn]

One can compute the frequency of such events. A Goblin archer has a +3 to hit. Assuming the Barbarian had chain shirt (no reason he shouldn't have it), and 12-16 Dex given that he's an elf, we're looking at a 16-ish AC even without other items. The goblin's chance of critting is thus (1/20)*(8/20) = 2%. At this point it's important to note that your hypothetical Barbarian is illegal - the lowest possible hp given that Con is 20, barring Frail or similar deliberate self-nerfs. A small-sized longbow only does 1d6 damage, and goblins have a strength penalty so we wouldn't be seeing any bonus damage. Max damage is only 18, and even that is extraordinarily unlikely. The chance of a max damage roll is 0.4%

In short, there's only a 0.009% chance of a goblin archer doing 18 damage to your elf barbarian, and even that doesn't drop them.
As stated, the hypothetical example used a "HP are rolled" model. That means the lowest possible HP for said barbarian (14 Con) is 9.

Further, statblocks show a typical entry. Humanoids with class levels typically get elite array, which can result in a strength bonus. A level 2 Goblin Rogue/Fighter with Craven and Weapon focus, for example, with elite array (as PC class NPC's are entitled to), could have Str 13, Dex16. That would mean a +6 to hit, dealing 1d6+1 (+1d6+2 when sneak attacking).

Assuming the Level 3 Barbarian above (AC 16ish, 20 hp) was raging? (AC 14, 26 hp)
Odds have gone up somewhat. Still low, but odds of hitting are good... And a crit does 3d6+9 + 1d6 sneak, or 23 average. A slightly above average roll, and the barbarian goes down.

Now I've shown that raging is a bad option, because it lowers AC.

At least, by the logic used earlier in the thread.


No it isn't. But it can form the foundation of much more solid statistical analysis.No, it won't. The nature of these anecdotes is to highlight the memorable. Nobody remembers the fight against the three goblins, where they rolled mediocre, a party member took 5 damage, and all was well. They remember the freak occurrences. Instantly, that corrupts the data.

Add on that using results to calculate statistics when the odds are already known... is like using a sundial to figure out the time, when your watch is set by the atomic clock in Germany. All using less precise data does is form the basis for flawed analysis.

If you want to test to see if a die is weighted to give an equal chance to all numbers, go ahead and test it. That's a valid use of gathering data to test.

But when the odds are known, there's no need for anecdotes or control tests. That's only done when you're trying to figure out the odds.

[MukkTB]

I still don't see it. All the term noob proof means is that at the end of creation they will have a decent character. It doesn't mean they won't die. It doesn't mean they're gonna blow the game away with massive cosmic power. It just means that the character will be competent at doing adventuring things compared to characters who are just pure liabilities.

Even the awful optimization that you first describe isn't a liability in the party unless it decides to try to be the primary tank. IE being the easiest target for the enemy to hit. Your argument is basically that a natural spell shape-changed druid with no relevant equipment and no buffs and poor support from its animal companion isn't a good melee character. I agree. I also agree that a noobie druid might easily fit that description. But I don't agree that that invalidates the usefulness of a noobie druid. A noobie druid played badly is not a tier 1 character. Noob proof as a term doesn't claim that a noob druid played badly will still be a tier 1 character. Noob proof just claims that the character will be worth the air they breath as they wander around. In my opinion that probably starts happening around tier 4.

[Coidzor]

- PCs can reasonably expect to enter fights at less than max health on a regular basis. Starting a fight at 75% hp shouldn't be a cause for death.

Shouldn't, but given how rocket-taggy the system is in general.... Well, the only TPKs I've ever had only happened in situations like that, barring impossible encounters that take away the possibility of flight against creatures with level 15 wizard spells known with sorcerers spells per day and spontaneity.

[jiriku]

- I was already partially wounded when the encounter began, maybe 27/36. Nobody else in the group had healing magic, I'd already used my prepped healing on a party member who'd dropped against traps, my wand was inaccessible since it was merged with me, and it didn't seem that crucial at the time.

- I got hit by every attack. This was the big one. There was a cluster of Yuan-Ti archers, every attack hit, and I think at least one crit for x3 damage.


You say anything deadly to the Druid would have been equally deadly to the Fighter, but that's simply not true. As Tordek (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20000626d) illustrated for us, a standard unoptimized Fighter should be expected to have 22-24 armor by level 5. But the Druid in Leopard form is going to have 15, pretty much regardless of build. And I was flatfooted since I flubbed my initiative, so 11. Even base Yuan-Ti archers have a better than even chance to hit that, and to confirm any criticals. They rolled well against me, but they didn't need to roll that well. But against anyone in Fullplate, we're looking at massively decreased odds.

One of them rolled a 20. That happens. The chance of the crit confirming and the other four all hitting me was 32.8%; I was unlucky, but it wasn't unreasonable. Against Tordek, even at lvl 4, the chance of that happening 0.2%. That's completely implausible. Characters shouldn't have to worry about events that implausible.

And with 7d8 damage coming my way, that's an average of 31 damage. Enough to easily drop me, or even kill me if they rolled damage as well as they rolled attacks. I think I got CDG'd though, not that it matters.


THAT'S the difference between Druids and Fighters. It's the difference between a 32.8% chance of death, and a 0.2%. I took 7d8 damage; the Fighter might have taken 3d8, and even that would have been about as unlucky as the roll against me. Heck, even if one of them had missed I still had pretty goods of dropping, and the chance of them rolling four hits out of five is pretty darn good. If anyone actually wants the math on that one it'll have to wait, cause I'm running out the door.

I've got to admit, I'm not seeing it either.
- You spent spells healing party members, which means you contributed.
- You were carrying a healing wand, which means you were equipped to contribute further by healing up the party's wounds at the end of the day.
- You presumably tanked at least one hit off another party member, since you were wounded. Again, contributing.
- You got waxed, but the same would have happened to many sorts of characters who take an alpha strike to the face while flat-footed and injured. Certainly a plate-wearing character or a character with Uncanny Dodge would have fared better, but a clothie would have fared worse. Your performance was probably about in the middle of the road.

When I call something "newbie-proof", I don't mean to say "a newbie can play this, play it badly even, and no way will he ever die." Instead, I mean "a newbie can play this, play it badly even, and he'll still contribute to the party and be a useful, functioning member of the group."

I mean, it's a shame that your character died. And that must have been a disappointing experience. But for sure you were contributing more than you would have on a monk or samurai, and the DM allowed your character far more readily than most DMs would allow a psychic warrior or a warblade or a totemist. Your druid was doing alright, man.

[sonofzeal]

As stated, the hypothetical example used a "HP are rolled" model. That means the lowest possible HP for said barbarian (14 Con) is 9.
Maximum hp at first level is standard, even when rolling. I took "rolling" as alternate to "average" or "high average.


Further, statblocks show a typical entry. Humanoids with class levels typically get elite array, which can result in a strength bonus. A level 2 Goblin Rogue/Fighter with Craven and Weapon focus, for example, with elite array (as PC class NPC's are entitled to), could have Str 13, Dex16. That would mean a +6 to hit, dealing 1d6+1 (+1d6+2 when sneak attacking).

Assuming the Level 3 Barbarian above (AC 16ish, 20 hp) was raging? (AC 14, 26 hp)
Odds have gone up somewhat. Still low, but odds of hitting are good... And a crit does 3d6+9 + 1d6 sneak, or 23 average. A slightly above average roll, and the barbarian goes down.
So an optimized PC can beat an unoptimized PC if they get initiative. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be seeing here.


Now I've shown that raging is a bad option, because it lowers AC.

At least, by the logic used earlier in the thread.
No. Since Raging is a free action and lasts a matter of rounds, the Barbarian is unlikely to rage unless they're attacking that turn. To say that Rage is a bad option, compare the odds of the Barbarian beating the Goblin with and without Rage.

Wildshaping by contrast consumes combat rounds and lasts hours. A Barbarian won't be in Rage when ambushed, but a Druid may very well be in Wildshape... if they're following the conventional board advice of being in Wildshape 24/7 whenever possible.


No, it won't. The nature of these anecdotes is to highlight the memorable. Nobody remembers the fight against the three goblins, where they rolled mediocre, a party member took 5 damage, and all was well. They remember the freak occurrences. Instantly, that corrupts the data.
Which is why I take a statistical analysis to determine whether or not these occurrences are flukes, and why I always use a reference point of other possible characters and how well they might do in the same situation.


If you want to test to see if a die is weighted to give an equal chance to all numbers, go ahead and test it. That's a valid use of gathering data to test.

But when the odds are known, there's no need for anecdotes or control tests. That's only done when you're trying to figure out the odds.
Yep. And I'm trying to figure out the odds of indiscriminate Wildshaping leading directly to death.

Turns out, it's pretty high. MONKS have a higher survivability than gearless Wildshaped Druids, for crying out loud! That's NOT A GOOD THING!

[MukkTB]

You would have done a lot better if you had titled the thread. 'Unoptimized Melee Wildshape is Bad.'

[sonofzeal]

I mean, it's a shame that your character died. And that must have been a disappointing experience. But for sure you were contributing more than you would have on a monk or samurai, and the DM allowed your character far more readily than most DMs would allow a psychic warrior or a warblade or a totemist. Your druid was doing alright, man.
I know he was, which is why I wasn't using him as a primary example. I just mentioned I had one, someone asked me to clarify, and I did. That was a character I made when I'd been on these boards for a bit and was comfortable with the rules. I hadn't seen MIC yet though, and our DM wasn't a fan of barding... or Dinosaur forms. I had a pretty strict "no dinosaur" clause. I still managed to contribute, and (in my less than humble opinion) may have been the MVP of the whole group... but I was still very much a glass cannon.


Snowy was a far better example. The player was actually pretty smart but pretty new to the game and a "casual" player. He had a hard time keeping track of buff modifiers so he rarely used them. Similarly with summons, he struggled with the paperwork. I helped him stat out his Wildshape forms, and even applied templates to them (illegal I know), and the DM effectively gave him Daggerspell Shaper for free... but he played his Druid like a Fighter because attack-and-damage was where he was comfortable. And he stank, bigtime. Rarely accomplished anything, and dropped regularly. He played a Druid because he absolutely loved the idea, but we had to treat him with kidgloves the whole way. And he still dropped regularly.

There was a Soulknife/Ninja in the same party who routinely outperformed him in every important.

Snowy survived to the end of the campaign... and I believe he contributed significantly to a fight exactly once in our mutual time there.


You would have done a lot better if you had titled the thread. 'Unoptimized Melee Wildshape is Bad.'
Point.

So... y'know, don't recommend melee wildshape to new or casual gamers who wouldn't know how to optimize it yet. That's all I'm asking. And no, taking "Natural Spell" does not count, that's about the one bit even new/casual gamers could figure out for themselves, and it won't keep them from getting killed.

[candycorn]

Maximum hp at first level is standard, even when rolling. I took "rolling" as alternate to "average" or "high average.Depends on the game. I've played games that roll every level.


So an optimized PC can beat an unoptimized PC if they get initiative. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be seeing here.That assigning arbitrary character stats and unlikely situations (most of the anecdotes here) not only proves nothing, it doesn't even hint at providing a scrap of evidence that might possibly support a point.

In other words, if you didn't get the point... Then you got the point. You're doing exactly what I've been doing at the anecdotes. Scratching my head.


No. Since Raging is a free action and lasts a matter of rounds, the Barbarian is unlikely to rage unless they're attacking that turn. To say that Rage is a bad option, compare the odds of the Barbarian beating the Goblin with and without Rage.Note how the goblin I chose was CR 2, and the barbarian was ECL 3. There's room for additional enemies in the encounter. This was to simulate the barbarian raging, and hitting a screening element (a less skilled goblin).


Wildshaping by contrast consumes combat rounds and lasts hours. A Barbarian won't be in Rage when ambushed, but a Druid may very well be in Wildshape... if they're following the conventional board advice of being in Wildshape 24/7 whenever possible.Before level 7-8, this isn't feasible, and before level 12, doing it kills flexibility. I'm sticking with low levels here, 5-6. After all, by the time someone plays a character to 10, they've got a bit of experience, and they've also proved that they had a character that could survive the rigors of adventure. At those levels, the point that the druid has been effective is a foregone conclusion.


Which is why I take a statistical analysis to determine whether or not these occurrences are flukes, and why I always use a reference point of other possible characters and how well they might do in the same situation.Removing the occurrences entirely, and moving to strictly statistical analysis will increase accuracy.


Yep. And I'm trying to figure out the odds of indiscriminate Wildshaping leading directly to death.I'd say pretty close to the odds of indiscriminate casting, or indiscriminate raging.


Turns out, it's pretty high. MONKS have a higher survivability than gearless Wildshaped Druids, for crying out loud! That's NOT A GOOD THING!Clarification: Monks have a higher survivability than gearless wildshaped druids that have Con as a tertiary stat.

Let's look instead at a Dwarf Druid (RA Salvatore's Cleric Quintet featured one, and if Drow rangers with scimitars can become icons, why not this).

Str 12, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 12, Wisdom 16, Charisma 8.
Assume average HP, max first die. Character will have 46 HP at level 5.
In Black Bear form, character will have AC 13, and attacks at +7/+7/+2 for 1d4+4/1d4+4/1d6+2.

Compare vs Monk 5. To get AC 13, and 46 HP, we need Dex and Wis 12, and Con 18. The stats end up looking like:

Str 14, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 8

Now, this character has AC 14, and 46 HP. More survivable at this level: Check.

Attacks: +5 (1d8+2) or +4/+4 (1d8+2/1d8+2)

This isn't including the Druid's animal companion, or spellcasting, or anything else. Just HP, and wildshape.

Further, at level 8? Monk, through stat increases, gets to AC 15, same HP a druid. Attacks get +3 to hit, no increase in damage.

Druid now has Dire Lion (AC 13), but the attacks shoot up to +13/+13/+7 (1d6+7/1d6+7/1d8+3), with pounce.
or a Polar Bear (AC 15, same as druid), with attacks at +13/+13/+8 (1d8+8/1d8+8/2d6+4), with improved grab.

Once level 8 is reached, and large forms are gained, the monk is far inferior, without casting or animal companion. With those, it only gets worse.

[sonofzeal]

Depends on the game. I've played games that roll every level.
That wasn't implied by what you said.


That assigning arbitrary character stats and unlikely situations (most of the anecdotes here) not only proves nothing, it doesn't even hint at providing a scrap of evidence that might possibly support a point.

In other words, if you didn't get the point... Then you got the point. You're doing exactly what I've been doing at the anecdotes. Scratching my head.
How about "an ECL 5 party fighting a band of Orc Warriors"? I covered that case in this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12241545&postcount=55). And then there's Trolls in the first post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12239188&postcount=1).


Before level 7-8, this isn't feasible, and before level 12, doing it kills flexibility. I'm sticking with low levels here, 5-6. After all, by the time someone plays a character to 10, they've got a bit of experience, and they've also proved that they had a character that could survive the rigors of adventure. At those levels, the point that the druid has been effective is a foregone conclusion.
Even a lvl 5 Druid can afford to stay in Bear form most of the day. I mean heck, people were chewing me out for not presuming Barkskin up in any given fight, and it lasts less than an hour - Bear form Wildshape has a five hour duration for us, and if the Druid uses it once then they'll likely be reluctant to change back unless they get further uses. So we can easily presume that the Druid is wandering around as a bear for solid portions of the adventuring day.




You want more objective analysis? How about a Manticore?

Manticores are also CR 5. Our standard lvl 5 Druid could easily expect to see one - and, as one of the only casters in her adventuring party, is quite likely to draw its ire. But I see no easy win-buttons for a Core Druid against it, nothing that won't give it a couple rounds to counterattack. The Druid's terrible AC in Wildshape means that spikes will hit (and confirm crits) 80% of the time. If the Manticore focuses on it for only a single round with the spikes, that gives us an expected value of 34.32 damage. That's straight average, mind you, accounting for the possibility of several missing. That's putting our standard Druid down to -6, average, and quite easily killing her outright.

Our standard Monk (see the first post) has about AC 16 at this level. Average damage against her drops from 34.32 to 25.74 - far more survivable, giving her and the rest of the party a chance to respond. A standard Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20000626c) would have about AC 20-21; expected damage against her in the same situation is 19.3, or 17.1 if she declares her Dodge. It'd still hurt, especially since a Rogue's hp are a little lower, but again she has noticably better than even odds of surviving it. Against the fighter of course, we're looking at an expected damage of a mere 12.87. A Fighter of that level can soak that several times with little worry.

I'd look at the Wizard's chance to survive, but it's too unknowable. Unlike the Druid, the Wizard has a multitude of defensive options by this level - I count 24 Core-only spells that could be of significant defensive use here, not even counting possible debuffs. Several of them have hour/level durations. The Druid doesn't get any long-duration defensive spells in Core, and the ones she does get aren't as good. Barkskin are both 2nd lvl spells, and both only give +2 AC at this level. That's not a lot, and not even enough to make the difference between life and death. Even if she had Barkskin or Cat's Grace up, the Manticore's full attack would be deadly. The Wizard could negate the damage entirely with Protection From Arrows, or at least dramatically improve her odds with Mirror Image.


It is not hard to come up with EL 5 threats that are lethal to a lvl5 Druid. It is also not hard to demonstrate that fellow party members have substantially better chances of survival, in exactly the same situations.

This is not anecdotal.

A Troll is lethal. A Manticore is lethal. An Orc band is lethal. Druids who Wildshape without item support can regularly expect to drop in a single round, before they have a chance to realize how vulnerable they are and react accordingly. Other characters, even relatively vulnerable ones like Monks and Rogues, have substantially better odds of tanking at least one bad round.



Also note that, at lvl 5, our standard Rogue has more AC than any animal in the Monster Manual.

[MukkTB]

Wait. The wizard is optimized and the druid is not?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20000626b
Manticore? That wizard is now a dead pincushion.

[candycorn]

That wasn't implied by what you saidI assure you, when I say Rolled HP, I truly mean Rolled HP. Regardless, it doesn't matter, because it is clear now.


Even a lvl 5 Druid can afford to stay in Bear form most of the day. I mean heck, people were chewing me out for not presuming Barkskin up in any given fight, and it lasts less than an hour - Bear form Wildshape has a five hour duration for us, and if the Druid uses it once then they'll likely be reluctant to change back unless they get further uses. So we can easily presume that the Druid is wandering around as a bear for the majority of the adventuring day.Let's assume 8 hours of rest, and 2 hours to set up and break down camp. That leaves 14 hours left. Precisely what math must be used to make 5 a majority of 14?


You want more objective analysis? How about a Manticore?

Manticores are also CR 5. Our standard lvl 5 Druid could easily expect to see one - and, as one of the only casters in her adventuring party, is quite likely to draw its ire. But I see no easy win-buttons for a Core Druid against it, nothing that won't give it a couple rounds to counterattack. The Druid's terrible AC in Wildshape means that spikes will hit (and confirm crits) 80% of the time. If the Manticore focuses on it for only a single round with the spikes, that gives us an expected value of 34.32 damage. That's straight average, mind you, accounting for the possibility of several missing. That's putting our standard Druid down to -6, average, and quite easily killing her outright.Ok, let's look at this manticore.

While transiting through a mountain pass, the party was observed by a manticore, gliding through the cloud cover. It sees a lithe fellow, in leather, with all manner of tools, and light weapons, leading the group. Obviously a path finder or scout, it thinks. Kill that one, and the group will likely blunder to their doom in this terrain. Behind that, an armored man leads a pack mule. On his back is a large blade, and over his other shoulder sits a bow. Hired muscle, thinks the manticore. The arrows could sting, but it can weather the hits long enough for a pass or two. Behind that is two unarmored figures, both bundled heavily, both using a walking staff. Possibly merchants, it thinks... Though it has seen some humans throw fire that were armed thusly. Best watch those two carefully. Finally, at the end, there is a bear, and a wolf.

No, the manticore doesn't think "trained animals". It doesn't think "rear guard". No, despite the bear having cast no spells, and despite having no ranks in Spellcraft, it thinks, "That bear is a caster! Ire! Ire!"

See the problem here? The manticore's likely target is to try to ambush the group, firing a volley at the scout, and slipping away before they can react. After that, whichever robed figure displays any flashy signs of magic, or the fighter, if neither the monk or the wizard display magic. The bear? Last target, until it reveals itself as a shapeshifter or a caster.

Given the terrain manticores favor, catching the group unawares, isn't too unlikely. 4 shots against the rogue's flat footed AC will likely kill it. If not, it's bleeding out. The first chance? another volley at the bleeding one, and fly off. Following round? It would fly back, and see a blur or mirror image effect on the caster. That's enough to convince it to fly off, and wait. After all, they're lost now... They'll be getting tired, and hungry soon.

See? Your encounter synopsis assumes that a creature with below average intelligence, no magical ability, and no spellcraft skill... Would be familiar enough with druids to know that bear's a caster... And yet unfamiliar enough to not kno that its offensive options are limited against a flying creature, thus far.

I don't buy that.

[Heliomance]

I'm fairly good at optimisation. I'm a regular here, I understand the maths of D&D, I've tried my hand at TO a couple of times, I enjoy building characters. I'm currently playing a wildshape focused Druid.

Now, admittedly I'm restricted to the MM1 for forms, and Natural Spell has been banned, but I found that before I got Wildshape: Large, I was fairly pathetic in combat. I couldn't reliably hit the enemies' AC, and when I did I was doing pathetic amounts of damage. Now I've got large forms, things are somewhat better, but I'm still finding that being a grapplemonkey is about the only way I can contribute meaningfully to fights, and that largely because there are a couple of houserules in play to buff grapplers (notably, winning a grapple check deals automatic damage as if you'd attacked them with the weapon you're using to grapple - so Improved Grab means doing damage twice, once on the hit, and once on the grapple). Even as a grappler, I'm only just keeping up my end. That is likely to change soon though - I read the statblock of the Giant Octopus last session. Let's just say I'm prepping Air Breathing every day from now on.

I keep Magic Fang and Longstrider up at all times, and I have a suit of +1 Ironwood Fullplate, so my AC isn't tragic. That's about the only magic item I have, though - I couldn't afford anything else what with the added cost of wilding clasps. I did get one as loot last session, though, so ideas of what to use that with would be appreciated. I'm level 9, FWIW, though due to PrCing for the wildshape bonuses I only have 3rd level spells. Other all-day buff spells to prepare would also be useful.

Also, telling people to stay wildshaped 24/7 isn't particularly useful. It would be fairly in-character for me to do so, but the communication issue is non-trivial. I'm finding I have to turn back into a human quite a lot just so I can talk tactics/report what I've found while scouting/assorted other reasons why talking is necessary.

[Gwendol]

Contrary to what many seems to think, bad AC is lethal at lower levels. To the point that rage and/or enlarge person are also buffs that needs to be taken with consideration, lest one ends up with negative HP.

[sonofzeal]

Wait. The wizard is optimized and the druid is not?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20000626b
Manticore? That wizard is now a dead pincushion.
It's not that the Wizard is optimized, it's that the Wizard has 24 viable defensive options, whereas the Druid has 2 and neither of them are very good.

Even that link doesn't help, because we don't see the actual spellbook. I'd have to make a horrid number of assumptions to be able to run any simulations of a lvl 5 Mialee in any given situation. It's simply too swingy. A bad prepped/prebuffed list spells doom, and the right one spells complete domination. I honestly don't want to bother.

(Although, going by that, it seems Mialee's primary strategy is hide behind everyone else, win initiative, and then either turn Invisible or try to end it in a single round with Sleep. And you have to admit Invisibility is generally a pretty good defense.)


Let's assume 8 hours of rest, and 2 hours to set up and break down camp. That leaves 14 hours left. Precisely what math must be used to make 5 a majority of 14?
I edited it before you posted. However, I usually assume about eight "peak hours" of actual work, sorta a 9-to-5 thing. Desperate situations can drive the party to more, and random encounters can happen any time, but given that most groups I've been in roughly match one gaming session to one day in-game (it's always easier to refresh everything and level up between games), I think it's a fairly reasonable standard.

Not that it matters, exactly. It's purely a rule of thumb I use. In any case, 5 hours is a lot.


Ok, let's look at this manticore.

While transiting through a mountain pass, the party was observed by a manticore, gliding through the cloud cover. It sees a lithe fellow, in leather, with all manner of tools, and light weapons, leading the group. Obviously a path finder or scout, it thinks. Kill that one, and the group will likely blunder to their doom in this terrain. Behind that, an armored man leads a pack mule. On his back is a large blade, and over his other shoulder sits a bow. Hired muscle, thinks the manticore. The arrows could sting, but it can weather the hits long enough for a pass or two. Behind that is two unarmored figures, both bundled heavily, both using a walking staff. Possibly merchants, it thinks... Though it has seen some humans throw fire that were armed thusly. Best watch those two carefully. Finally, at the end, there is a bear, and a wolf.

No, the manticore doesn't think "trained animals". It doesn't think "rear guard". No, despite the bear having cast no spells, and despite having no ranks in Spellcraft, it thinks, "That bear is a caster! Ire! Ire!"

See the problem here? The manticore's likely target is to try to ambush the group, firing a volley at the scout, and slipping away before they can react. After that, whichever robed figure displays any flashy signs of magic, or the fighter, if neither the monk or the wizard display magic. The bear? Last target, until it reveals itself as a shapeshifter or a caster.

Given the terrain manticores favor, catching the group unawares, isn't too unlikely. 4 shots against the rogue's flat footed AC will likely kill it. If not, it's bleeding out. The first chance? another volley at the bleeding one, and fly off. Following round? It would fly back, and see a blur or mirror image effect on the caster. That's enough to convince it to fly off, and wait. After all, they're lost now... They'll be getting tired, and hungry soon.

See? Your encounter synopsis assumes that a creature with below average intelligence, no magical ability, and no spellcraft skill... Would be familiar enough with druids to know that bear's a caster... And yet unfamiliar enough to not kno that its offensive options are limited against a flying creature, thus far.

I don't buy that.
Uncanny Dodge. Seriously, did you forget this? The rogue perhaps takes one or two spines. Entirely survivable, and now she's taking defensive actions while seeking cover, and the rest of the group is moving up to support. At this point, a smart Manticore played intelligently probably withdraws and never bugs this group of adventurers again, but there's any number of reasons otherwise - perhaps the PCs are dangerously near its nest, or it hasn't eaten in a week and is desperate, or the BBEG is compelling it to attack them, or it just really hates humanoids. Most fights in D&D involve both sides pretty dedicated to the idea of killing each other without many questions about motives. Is it too much to ask to simply go with that?

Also, you're giving the Manticore the initiative here, and I wasn't. Actually, you'll notice I assumed the Manticore was counterattacking - IE that the party had already engaged with it. In the air where the Fighter and Barbarian and Rogue are reduced to plinking with arrows, it's going to take a few rounds. The spellcasters of the party would have to be the ones to swing this offensively, but as I said Druid has no real win-buttons that I can see. Out of the core list at least, all the offensive spells either do moderate direct damage, require a melee touch, or only work on the ground. Produce Flames is probably the best bet here, offensively - low damage, but huge range and the Manticore's touch AC is poor. Flame Sphere and Summon Swarm will just be outrun, and Call Lightning is pretty bad. But the Druid with Produce Flames will deal more damage per hit, and hit more often, than the Fighter with his Longbow.


However, I really didn't want to get into specific scenarios, because it creates too many assumptions. I'd much rather keep this general - flying manticore in an archery duel with a group of PCs. And, as previously established, Rogue and Monk are both much more likely to survive the encounter. They'll both accrue damage more slowly, and usually have the option of quitting action if their hp gets low. The Druid may well never get that chance.

And remember, this is just one scenario, against one random CR/EL 5 encounter. It really doesn't take any contrivance at all to produce scenarios where the criminally low AC of animal forms gets taken advantage of to pound the Druid into the dirt. I've seen it happen in half a dozen games to half a dozen Druids played by half a dozen players. I can show you hypothetical after hypothetical where it happens over and over.

Druids need to get item support in Wildshape, or avoid it in combat unless they really know what they're doing. And we need to stop telling people otherwise. Is that such an outrageous claim?

[lord_khaine]

And it's not supersimple, at least, not for a new player. Such a player will get hit several times, and then note that low AC is a detriment. Then, that character will possibly use spells to boost.



I think there either is a minor syntax error here, or else you are being supersarkastic.

But you are right, its not simple. What a new player will notice is that his HP runs out faster than his enemies, and hopefully he will think it should be solved though magic. He then has several options.

a) use healing magic to replace the HP he lose in combat.
B) use a con booster to increase his HP pool.
c) Somehow reduce the damage he takes.
d) Increase his damage output so the enemy dies faster.

In theory these are all viable options, but it will be hard for a new player to figure out wich one is the correct choice for him.


And still, not much problem. Note: If the wizard, or the rogue had been charged by the lion, they'd be bleeding out too, at this level. The only one that would survive such a charge is the warblade.


But the problem is that both the Wizard and the rogue knows they should be hanging out at the back, trying as hard as they can to avoid any attention whatsoever.

The new druid on the other hand, armed with Natural Spell, a bearshape and the advice that he wont need anything else, might very well belive that doesnt apply to himself.

[candycorn]

Uncanny Dodge. Seriously, did you forget this? The rogue perhaps takes one or two spines. Entirely survivable, and now she's taking defensive actions while seeking cover, and the rest of the group is moving up to support. At this point, a smart Manticore played intelligently probably withdraws and never bugs this group of adventurers again, but there's any number of reasons otherwise - perhaps the PCs are dangerously near its nest, or it hasn't eaten in a week and is desperate, or the BBEG is compelling it to attack them, or it just really hates humanoids. Most fights in D&D involve both sides pretty dedicated to the idea of killing each other without many questions about motives. Is it too much to ask to simply go with that?Well, when we're attributing a pyschic level of knowledge to know that the bear is a caster, and simultaneously enough ignorance to not know it can't really do much in Wildshape form, as well as ignorance that Arrows hurt?

Yes, that is too much to ask, generally, that creatures be played with no regard to their intelligence and in game knowledge.


Also, you're giving the Manticore the initiative here, and I wasn't. Actually, you'll notice I assumed the Manticore was counterattacking - IE that the party had already engaged with it. In the air where the Fighter and Barbarian and Rogue are reduced to plinking with arrows, it's going to take a few rounds. The spellcasters of the party would have to be the ones to swing this offensively, but as I said Druid has no real win-buttons that I can see. Out of the core list at least, all the offensive spells either do moderate direct damage, require a melee touch, or only work on the ground. Produce Flames is probably the best bet here, offensively - low damage, but huge range and the Manticore's touch AC is poor. Flame Sphere and Summon Swarm will just be outrun, and Call Lightning is pretty bad.Summon Nature's Ally 3? Seriously, did you forget flying summons?

But the Druid with Produce Flames will deal more damage per hit, and hit more often, than the Fighter with his Longbow.But only out of wildshape form. In the above example: manticore doesn't engage the bear first, because we can both agree, it will engage the biggest perceived threat, which the bear is not. Druid's turn: Realizing that a bear cannot hit the manticore, regardless of AC, druid dismisses wild shape. POOF! Now the Druid is there, with Dex 14, Hide armor, and a heavy wooden shield. Next round? Summon a giant eagle, to harry and engage the manticore. Summon Nature's Ally is about as guaranteed as druid gets. Suddenly, the druid can contribute, and has upwards of an 18 AC.


However, I really didn't want to get into specific scenarios, because it creates too many assumptions. I'd much rather keep this general - flying manticore in an archery duel with a group of PCs.psychic druid hating manticore, as opposed to common sense. I got what you'd rather keep this as: Something as far from likely as possible.

And, as previously established, Rogue and Monk are both much more likely to survive the encounter. They'll both accrue damage more slowly, and usually have the option of quitting action if their hp gets low. The Druid may well never get that chance.Really? You're in a speedboat. You have a gun. You see a swimmer with a club, a jetskier with a harpoon gun, and another speedboat with a driver with a gun...

Does it really matter if the swimmer is easier to hit? He's not the one being shot at first! Rule 1: In order to be hit, you must be attacked.


And remember, this is just onehighly unlikely
scenario, against one randompsychic druid hating
CR/EL 5 encounter. It really doesn't take any contrivance at allbeyond rigging the monsters to pursue the druid with bloodthirsty vengeance, regardless of any actual battlefield considerations
to produce scenarios where the criminally low AC of animal forms gets taken advantage of to pound the Druid into the dirt. I've seen it happen in half a dozen games to half a dozen Druids played by half a dozen players.Anecdotal evidence is precisely worthless.

I can show you hypothetical after hypothetical where it happens over and over.If they're as likely as the above? I'm happy with that. Because you've contrived the above scenario. The manticore must choose who to attack. That requires it prioritize targets. And unless that manticore is a psychic druid hating piece of plot, it's not going to prioritize a creature that can't hit or hurt it over one that can. Ignoring that completely invalidates every bit of information you just stated.


Druids need to get item support in Wildshape, or avoid it in combat unless they really know what they're doing. And we need to stop telling people otherwise. Is that such an outrageous claim?I'm not sure. I kinda lost count of the outrageous claims.

Of course wild shape isn't for heavy duty combat at level 5-7.
I HAVE ALREADY SAID THAT. MORE THAN ONCE.
It's quite good for scouting, however, or tracking. At level 8+, wild shape becomes viable for actual combat, especially when supported with Natural Spell. Even without incredible experience, or in depth item support.

And that is not outrageous at all.

[lord_khaine]

I'm not sure. I kinda lost count of the outrageous claims.


Really? i didnt see anything outrageous in those situations he set up.


Of course wild shape isn't for heavy duty combat at level 5-7.
I HAVE ALREADY SAID THAT. MORE THAN ONCE.


But that only supports his claim, that people are giving bad advice when they tell new druids that all they need is wildshape and natural spell to be instantly OP.

[sonofzeal]

Well, when we're attributing a pyschic level of knowledge to know that the bear is a caster, and simultaneously enough ignorance to not know it can't really do much in Wildshape form, as well as ignorance that Arrows hurt?

Yes, that is too much to ask, generally, that creatures be played with no regard to their intelligence and in game knowledge.
Seriously, where are you getting this "psychic Manticore" idea from? I explicitly assumed that my generalized situation was in the middle of combat, when the Druid has had time time act and almost certainly cast a spell. Was that not lucid enough the other time I clarified? Or do you feel that ridicule makes your own position stronger, regardless of whether the thing you're ridiculing actually occured?


But yes, good catch on SNA3. A Giant Owl isn't my favorite, but it can certainly catch the Manticore and contribute. However, SNA3 is a 1 round casting time. So here's your Psychic Manticore for you - the Druid might choose to cast without dropping Wildshape first, either to get the summon in the air a round earlier, or to preserve the Wildshape for later use (both are potentially very good reasons), or because they derp and don't think of that option. Druid starts casting the spell, Manticore clearly sees a Bear launch into an extended cast, and quite reasonably assumes that pegging a hostile spellcaster in the middle of a cast is probably a good thing to do, whether the caster is human or ursine.

Or the Druid was stupid like me and cast Produce Flames instead and now has a bunch of fire on its paw, also clearly identifying it as a caster. Or the Rogue took a couple spines and the Druid used Cure Light Wounds, also identifying it as a caster (if less clearly). Or the Manticore just doesn't like bears. Or it thought the bear wasn't with the humans, and was hungry and figured the humans would just run off. Or any number of other situations.

This is why I didn't specify an exact scenario. Too many things can happen, and it really doesn't matter. If a Druid draws any significant aggro while in Wildshape and without item defence, that Druid is probably dropping sooner rather than later - and by "sooner" I mean "instantly" and "without any chance to break aggro". Given that D&D characters tend to draw aggro frequently, and given that front-line sorts tend to draw the significant majority of that aggro if the DM's nice, and spellcasters tend to draw it if the DM isn't, and the Druid played the way I'm talking about is both... yeah.


Of course wild shape isn't for heavy duty combat at level 5-7.
I HAVE ALREADY SAID THAT. MORE THAN ONCE.
It's quite good for scouting, however, or tracking. At level 8+, wild shape becomes viable for actual combat, especially when supported with Natural Spell. Even without incredible experience, or in depth item support.

And that is not outrageous at all.
Ah. I definitely didn't see you say something like that. *goes back up to browse* Nope, still don't see it, but I'll take your word for it.

....it appears we're in agreement then? :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

[Emmerask]

I think what newbiefriendly means in case of the druid is not that they are awesome when actually played by a new player, instead it means that it is nearly impossible very hard to create a druid that does not have the potential to be awesome even without adding additional resources (gold, items etc).

If the druid created by a new player would suddenly be played by a "pro" the druid would pretty much become an above avg character in that group at that moment.
This of course also means that the druid character grows proportionately in power with the new player gaining more knowledge about the game during play.

On the other hand a wizard or even worse a sorcerer can be pretty bad and hard to repair afterwards if created by a noobie :smallwink:

[Tyndmyr]

Seriously, where are you getting this "psychic Manticore" idea from? I explicitly assumed that my generalized situation was in the middle of combat, when the Druid has had time time act and almost certainly cast a spell. Was that not lucid enough the other time I clarified? Or do you feel that ridicule makes your own position stronger, regardless of whether the thing you're ridiculing actually occured?

Honestly, a trained bear isn't all that wierd in the D&D universe. And a noob druid that lives in wildshape and lives to smash face is casting spells? If he's casting spells, he's contributing.


But yes, good catch on SNA3. A Giant Owl isn't my favorite, but it can certainly catch the Manticore and contribute. However, SNA3 is a 1 round casting time. So here's your Psychic Manticore for you - the Druid might choose to cast without dropping Wildshape first, either to get the summon in the air a round earlier, or to preserve the Wildshape for later use (both are potentially very good reasons), or because they derp and don't think of that option. Druid starts casting the spell, Manticore clearly sees a Bear launch into an extended cast, and quite reasonably assumes that pegging a hostile spellcaster in the middle of a cast is probably a good thing to do, whether the caster is human or ursine.

Or, at level 5, he quite literally can't cast without swapping back to human. Natural Spell doesn't come online until level 6, at which point, he has rather more hp. A bog standard level 6 druid with a +2 con mod(about average), has 42 hp. Easily enough to take hits from the Manticore. If the druid ignores the incoming damage and acts sufficiently stupid, he can die, yes.

The same is true of anyone else.


Or the Druid was stupid like me and cast Produce Flames instead and now has a bunch of fire on its paw, also clearly identifying it as a caster. Or the Rogue took a couple spines and the Druid used Cure Light Wounds, also identifying it as a caster (if less clearly). Or the Manticore just doesn't like bears. Or it thought the bear wasn't with the humans, and was hungry and figured the humans would just run off. Or any number of other situations.

The last two are a wee bit implausible.


This is why I didn't specify an exact scenario. Too many things can happen, and it really doesn't matter. If a Druid draws any significant aggro while in Wildshape and without item defence, that Druid is probably dropping sooner rather than later - and by "sooner" I mean "instantly" and "without any chance to break aggro". Given that D&D characters tend to draw aggro frequently, and given that front-line sorts tend to draw the significant majority of that aggro if the DM's nice, and spellcasters tend to draw it if the DM isn't, and the Druid played the way I'm talking about is both... yeah.

It depends. They tank low damage, high attack bonus things fairly well. They survive grapple attempts fairly well.

Consider the Cloaker, another classic CR 5 foe. The high will save means a better chance to withstand fear. The other two abilities target fort...but that's high too. The damage is quite doable for the druid to tank, even if he gets unlucky and gets engulfed.

Yes, an unoptimized noob druid is not the best at tanking everything. They are, however, still fairly useful unless the noob has specifically tried to be ineffective.

[Grendyll]

Regarding the Manticore encounter…

Why would a level 5 druid be trying to stay in a wildshape form? Natural Spell is not available until level 6. At level 5, a druid would be ill-advised to wildshape outside the context of an encounter in this case. Far better to remain humanoid with spell-casting available until the encounter details are better known.

In this case the druid would still be the star of the encounter, but it would be because he casts Obscuring Mist giving the entire party a chance to move and hide from the Manticore’s ranged attacks. The party could pop out and engage at range, and retreat for healing when necessary (which the druid could provide). The druid could summon animals to harry the manticore from the safety of the mist or cast produce flame and join the ranged attack force.

If the party could not damage the Manticore fast enough, it would probably just retreat and abandon the attack on the party, maybe try again later, hopefully giving the party some time to prepare or at least seek cover. A druid with nothing but leather armor and 10 DEX could drop prone and have AC 16 v. Ranged attacks. A single volley from the Manticore would be extremely unlikely to kill him.

Edit to add : if for some bizarre reason the druid was a black bear and insisted on remaining a black bear, and the Manticore for some reason prioritized the black bear over the party members with actual ranged attacks, the druid could just go lie down under some nearby cover (use animal companion in a pinch) and take the total defense action. His AC would be 10 +2 nat armor +1 DEX +2 armor (non-magic leather barding) +4 cover +4 total defense action +4 prone v. ranged = 27. The Manticore would need a 19 or 20 to hit him and it would likely waste all 24 of its daily spike uses and barely scratch the druid. Kudos to the druid who did basically nothing and exhausted all of the enemy’s ranged attacks while the party hopefully did something useful.

[Rejakor]

Uh, just throwing this out there... but you guys know barding exists, right? It's right there in the equipment section of the PHB. I haven't had many newbie druid players who even used combat as an option (generally newbies revert to 'clerics and druids = healbots' thanks to CRPG influence), but I had one, and the first thing she asked me was 'where do I buy armour for a bear?' and then I had to explain that she doesn't start the game naked and have to go to a shop or something, she can have crafted/bought armour or magic items or weapons in her backstory (game was level 9). So she bought some bear barding (hide barding... she didn't know about dragonhide which was magical, and she got an animated large wooden shield, which she fluffed as a mass of vines that defended her against attacks), and a bear shield, and an amulet of natural attacks (or something). Then she prepared spells for the first time, and she took every feat in the PHB that seemed to relate to druids in any way (I think she even had a metamagic feat or something? It didn't really come up... but she did have Improved Natural Attack and Natural Spell) and then had her bear druid with it's bear companion wander around the place absolutely destroying encounters and trivializing the rest of the party. By complete accident. The fighter was a greatsword fighter with various Imp. Sunder, Imp. Bullrush etc feats, but had power attack and grapple so could alter his tactics a bit, and had good str and con. The wizard was focusing on half divination half damage and knowledge skills and spent most of his money on a custom 'crystal ball' item, alongside his magic staff. The cleric was all about the bashing and the healing, but his bashing was 14 str +1 mace kind, not righteous might or divine power kind. And his healing was cure spells, mostly of the 'what is a wand' variety.

People are saying Wildshape is good not because budding optimizers will find it, or newbies will just press the wildshape button and win (that is known as the illusionist button, actually), it's because if a newbie makes a druid focused on wildshape melee combat, they can completely ignore the confusing morass of 'are these spells any good' and absolutely destroy face as not one but two better-than-fighters. Compared to the druid BFC and blasting spells, PHB druid buff spells are real obvious (bull's strength bear's endurance barkskin greater magic fang) and the only obvious druid feat in the PHB is freakin' NATURAL SPELL. Which lets you SNA or BFC in the middle of combat, which not only makes you better at fighting than the PHB fighter, but gives you options he doesn't have in order to get the hell out of dodge.

Pre-level 6 everything is more homogenous, but newbie druids still have a pocket fighter no matter what else they're doing with their turn, and unlike magic missile, SNA is at least not a trap option.

[candycorn]

Really? i didnt see anything outrageous in those situations he set up.You don't see anything contrived in a scenario wherein a manticore gets to full attack the entire party every round, and we see who lives longest?

Friend, you and I have different views of reasonable.


But that only supports his claim, that people are giving bad advice when they tell new druids that all they need is wildshape and natural spell to be instantly OP.
Do those claims state that the druid can play stupid? Do they state that wildshaping suddenly makes the druid unkillable?

No.

The bulk of a druid's best features are a part of the class. When constructing a druid, if you remember natural spell, you're doing golden. Why? Because if you get to level 6, you're not prone to wading into combat unless you have the HP to support that.

If you have that feat, that's really all you need. Other options may improve you, but if you chose druid, and you chose natural spell, then it becomes very difficult for the untrained to know it's the bear casting entangle, or that the lion is summoning the extra monsters.

That piece of advice isn't saying "you're a level 6 druid with natural spell and wildshape. Go fight the Great Wyrm, you'll do fine." It's saying that a druid's inherent class features, combined with wildshape and natural spell, yield a character that can contribute in almost any encounter, and can dominate many.

In other words, it's saying Natural Spell is necessary, and Druid is Tier 1.

Is anyone here seriously going to disagree with that?

Seriously, where are you getting this "psychic Manticore" idea from? I explicitly assumed that my generalized situation was in the middle of combat, when the Druid has had time time act and almost certainly cast a spell. Was that not lucid enough the other time I clarified?You've assumed a level 5 druid who:
1) has 1 wild shape a day
2) started the fight in bear form (used already)
3) cannot have natural spell (needs level 6)

...has cast a spell, and is still in bear form. That is impossible. For the manticore to know that the bear is really an elf druid that can cast spells without casting evidence? That requires a bit of a premonition.


Or do you feel that ridicule makes your own position stronger, regardless of whether the thing you're ridiculing actually occured?Look above. You have stated an impossibility. The level 5 druid, who starts in bear form, cannot cast without exiting bear form. Calculating based on being in bear form after casting, given your assumptions is not only ridiculous, it is impossible.


But yes, good catch on SNA3. A Giant Owl isn't my favorite, but it can certainly catch the Manticore and contribute.Disregarding a cornerstone class feature of the druid hardly speaks to your authority on this issue.

However, SNA3 is a 1 round casting time. So here's your Psychic Manticore for you - the Druid might choose to cast without dropping Wildshape firstCan't. Level 5, remember? Druids don't get a feat at level 5. Natural spell must be taken at level 6. Without it, there's no way the bear can cast.

either to get the summon in the air a round earlier, or to preserve the Wildshape for later use (both are potentially very good reasons)That still can't be done, because the druid is level 5

or because they derp and don't think of that option.This reasoning can justify that the wizard is weak because he just casts cantrips.

Druid starts casting the spell, Manticore clearly sees a Bear launch into an extended cast, and quite reasonably assumes that pegging a hostile spellcaster in the middle of a cast is probably a good thing to do, whether the caster is human or ursine.Manticore, without any spellcraft, has identified that a bear roaring, grunting, and moving, is casting? Really? This isn't even counting that what you suggest is not possible at level 5.

Or the Druid was stupid like me and cast Produce Flames instead and now has a bunch of fire on its paw, also clearly identifying it as a caster.And has broken the rules, as a level 5 druid can't cast while wildshaped.

Or the Rogue took a couple spines and the Druid used Cure Light Wounds, also identifying it as a caster (if less clearly).Yet again, not possible.

Or the Manticore just doesn't like bears.Really? REALLY?

Or it thought the bear wasn't with the humans, and was hungry and figured the humans would just run off.As opposed to a horse or pack mule, which is easier to kill, and still a solid meal?

Or any number of other situations.That each use impossible situations or contrived manticore motives.


This is why I didn't specify an exact scenario. Too many things can happen, and it really doesn't matter.You've not stated one that's reasonable yet.

If a Druid draws any significant aggro while in Wildshape and without item defence, that Druid is probably dropping sooner rather than later - and by "sooner" I mean "instantly" and "without any chance to break aggro".Given the 8 con druid who breaks rules, can cast while wildshaped, and psychic druid hating enemies? You are correct.

With proper application of the rules, your statement is about as sensible as: "If a mack truck is at 30,000 feet, and isn't in a plane, the truck is probably falling." While true, it's also so ridiculously unlikely as to be entirely disregarded.


Given that D&D characters tend to draw aggro frequently, and given that front-line sorts tend to draw the significant majority of that aggro if the DM's nice, and spellcasters tend to draw it if the DM isn't, and the Druid played the way I'm talking about is both... yeah.and by "both", do you mean "tries actively to kill new players, or any player who isn't putting armor on his bear druid like everyone should"?


....it appears we're in agreement then? :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:No. Because your statement can be taken at any level. It also means:

"A level 20 druid, regardless of shape chosen or form chosen, will almost always die in one round to any CR appropriate encounter, unless that druid has the good sense to put a bit of leather barding on."

And that's not true. After level 8, your point is completely invalid. Druid options, both in spellcasting and wildshape choices, expand to the point that any challenge has an appropriate form and an appropriate spell. And often, that spell is one that the druid can spontaneously cast.

[sonofzeal]

I really don't have any more patience for nitpicking on one particular hypothetical encounter against one particular creature.

How implausible is it that a PC takes a full-attack from an even-CR opponent, while using a signature long-duration ability?

Would going back to Trolls, like I did in my very first post, help things for you? Has anyone said anything to undermine my Orc example (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12241545&postcount=55)?

AC is important to survival in melee at least as high as level 10, and still relevant as high as 15. Wildshape forms generally have absymal AC for their level - an unoptimized Monk can expect to have significantly more (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20000626e). Druids have no long-duration AC buffs in Core.


Let's talk level 8 Druids, since people seem to claim this is the break point. Your basic Core form at that point becomes Polar Bear, and our standard Druid has about 48 hp (rounding up). Here's a few random CR 8 enemies from MM1...

9-Headed Hydra - can auto-hit. If even five of the heads attack the Druid, the Druid is almost certainly going down. The lvl 7 version of Ember has AC 23, and the lvl 7 version of Lidda has AC 22; Tordek has 25. Given these stats, if the Hydra sends four heads after the Druid and five after the Monk, the Druid has even odds of goes down but the Monk doesn't.

Dire Tiger - can auto-hit on every attack. Average damage on a pounce is enough for an auto-kill. The Dire Tiger's higher attack bonus means any character who gets pounced is in serious pain, but AC 22-25 gives decent odds that at least one or two attacks will miss. Polar!Druid is a lost cause though. One can merely pray it doesn't get the jump on the party - but that's standard for this encounter. At least the Druid might have above-average spot...?

Stone Giant - a pretty weak enemy against most PCs, it would have to hit with both club attacks and roll well on damage to drop anyone in a round. Its odds of landing both against the Polar!Druid s 85.5%; against the Rogue or Monk it's 37.5%. If the Druid enters the fight at even 80% health (reasonable if there's been other fights and nobody has free infinite healing, both good assumptions in most games), or if the Giant rolls even moderately above average (his max is more than sufficient leaving plenty of wiggle-room), that could be a THKO.

Juvenile Green Dragon - chance of hitting with every attack on a full attack against Polar!Druid: 74%. Against Monk or Rogue: 18%. Lethality in such an event: pretty darn high.

Athach - pretty lethal against everybody; three hits drops most characters, and it has five swings. Fortunately for everybody but the Druid, its attack bonus is pretty low for its level. Odds of landing at least three on the Druid: 98%. Odds against Monk or Rogue: 40%.


Note that, even with 4th lvl spells, the Druid has not added a single new defensive buff to his arsenal that helps with any of these situations. Barkskin now lasts almost an hour and a half and provides a +3 bonus, but is {a} still not an all-day buff, and {b} covers less than half the gap against Monk/Rogue.

I also really can't see how a form with 5' reach and no pounce can avoid taking a full attack to the face occasionally. Probably not always, and it's not the sort of thing that can be calculated. But in an average/casual game, it's the sort of thing that happens as a matter of course.

Barding still remains an acceptable solution. Wild Dragonhide Fullplate is possible if the Druid has been scrupulous about saving their money, and Wildling clasps are also becoming affordable even if they aren't. As long as we all agree that such measures are necessary for the Druid to consider herself a melee warrior, I'm satisfied.

[candycorn]

I really don't have any more patience for nitpicking on one particular hypothetical encounter against one particular creature.

How implausible is it that a PC takes a full-attack from an even-CR opponent, while using a signature long-duration ability?How plausible is it that a character takes a full attack regularly on the first round of a combat, with no option to act, detect the encounter, or do anything?


Would going back to Trolls, like I did in my very first post, help things for you? Has anyone said anything to undermine my Orc example (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12241545&postcount=55)?Level below 8? Then you're not saying anything we don't already know.


AC is important to survival in melee at least as high as level 10, and still relevant as high as 15. Wildshape forms generally have absymal AC for their level - an unoptimized Monk can expect to have significantly more (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20000626e). Druids have no long-duration AC buffs in Core.You overvalue AC. Wizards wouldn't be the most powerful class in the game if AC was the deciding factor in survivability.


Let's talk lvl 8 Druids, since people seem to claim this is the break point. Your basic Core form at that point becomes Polar Bear, and our standard Druid has about 48 hp (rounding up). Here's a few random CR 8 enemies from MM1...Dire Lion would like to have a word with you. As would a wide variety of flying creatures.


9-Headed Hydra - can auto-hit. If even five of the heads attack the Druid, the Druid is almost certainly going down. The lvl 7 version of Ember has AC 23, and the lvl 7 version of Lidda has AC 22; Tordek has 25. Given these stats, if the Hydra sends four heads after the Druid and five after the Monk, the Druid has even odds of goes down but the Monk doesn't. Given that a hydra will likely never get a full attack, your point is as relevant as any of your other points... Which is to say, not at all.


Dire Tiger - can auto-hit on every attack. Average damage on a pounce is enough for an auto-kill. The Dire Tiger's higher attack bonus means any character who gets pounced is in serious pain, but AC 22-25 gives decent odds that at least one or two attacks will miss. Polar!Druid is a lost cause though.Entangle? Level 1 spell, turns chargers into... well, enemies that sit there and get hit.


Stone Giant - a pretty weak enemy against most PCs, it would have to hit with both club attacks and roll well on damage to drop anyone in a round. Its odds of landing both against the Polar!Druid s 85.5%; against the Rogue or Monk it's 37.5%. If the Druid enters the fight at even 80% health (reasonable if there's been other fights and nobody has free infinite healing, both good assumptions in most games), or if the Giant rolls even moderately above average (his max is more than sufficient leaving plenty of wiggle-room), that could be a OHKO.Provided that the Stone Giant gets to make a full attack, perhaps. They're rarer than you think.


Juvenile Green Dragon - chance of hitting with every attack on a full attack against Polar!Druid: 74%. Against Monk or Rogue: 18%. Lethality in such an event: pretty darn high.Again, full attacks are hardly common.


Athach - pretty lethal against everybody; three hits drops most characters, and it has five swings.On a full attack, which isn't a foregone conclusion.
Fortunately for everybody but the Druid, its attack bonus is pretty low for its level. Odds of landing at least three on the Druid: 98%. Odds against Monk or Rogue: 40%.Odds of landing more than one hit without a full attack: 0%.

Note that, even with 4th lvl spells, the Druid has not added a single new defensive buff to his arsenal that helps with any of these situations. Barkskin now lasts almost an hour and a half and provides a +3 bonus, but is {a} still not an all-day buff, and {b} covers less than half the gap against Monk/Rogue.Crowd Control, Summons, and the like can all make getting hit less likely. Air Walk will trivialize most of the enemies you just named. All that's left is your point, which is getting more and more unlikely.


I also really can't see how a form with 5' reach and no pounce can avoid taking a full attack to the face occasionally.Again, Dire Lion would like a word. Core, available at level 8.

Probably not always, and it's not the sort of thing that can be calculated. But in an average/casual game, it's the sort of thing that happens as a matter of course.No example you have suggested is remotely close to "average" or "casual".


Barding still remains an acceptable solution. Wild Dragonhide Fullplate is possible if the Druid has been scrupulous about saving their money, and Wildling clasps are also becoming affordable even if they aren't. As long as we all agree that such measures are necessary for the Druid to consider herself a melee warrior, I'm satisfied.And we don't. Because, despite the fantasy world you are imagining, enemies don't get automatic full attacks on everyone in the party, every round, all the time. And until they do, the necessity of tactics is more important than your flawed premises and conclusions.

[Gavinfoxx]

Hydras dont need full attacks to attack with their heads, just standard attack.

[Tvtyrant]

How plausible is it that a character takes a full attack regularly on the first round of a combat, with no option to act, detect the encounter, or do anything?

Level below 8? Then you're not saying anything we don't already know.

You overvalue AC. Wizards wouldn't be the most powerful class in the game if AC was the deciding factor in survivability.

Dire Lion would like to have a word with you. As would a wide variety of flying creatures.

Given that a hydra will likely never get a full attack, your point is as relevant as any of your other points... Which is to say, not at all.

Entangle? Level 1 spell, turns chargers into... well, enemies that sit there and get hit.

Provided that the Stone Giant gets to make a full attack, perhaps. They're rarer than you think.

Again, full attacks are hardly common.

On a full attack, which isn't a foregone conclusion.Odds of landing more than one hit without a full attack: 0%.
Crowd Control, Summons, and the like can all make getting hit less likely. Air Walk will trivialize most of the enemies you just named. All that's left is your point, which is getting more and more unlikely.

Again, Dire Lion would like a word. Core, available at level 8.
No example you have suggested is remotely close to "average" or "casual".

And we don't. Because, despite the fantasy world you are imagining, enemies don't get automatic full attacks on everyone in the party, every round, all the time. And until they do, the necessity of tactics is more important than your flawed premises and conclusions.

...You just mentioned things with pounce in an attempt to disprove the likelihood of full attacks.
A Dire Tiger is at the level we are talking about, has pounce, and can one shot a Druid of that level. A Hydra has better than pounce, and even more so.

Athatch's are Huge, and therefore have a tremendous amount of reach. The only thing an Athach is going to do in a fight is full attack, unless you ambush it. They also can do 34 damage average on a throw, which is a considerable portion of a Druid's health at that level.

Keep in mind that this is staying within normal CR and encounter level, if we go up at all (which we should, since your own CR is an easy encounter) then the Druid gets to play with groups of things that are likely to have pounce or reach.

[Eldariel]

AC is important to survival in melee at least as high as level 10, and still relevant as high as 15. Wildshape forms generally have absymal AC for their level - an unoptimized Monk can expect to have significantly more (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20000626e). Druids have no long-duration AC buffs in Core.

Speaking of that Monk-build, did anyone ever proofread it? 'cause the level 7 entry has the following:
- Mithral shirt

Epic way to lose all the class features he's sacrificed 7 levels for...

[Tvtyrant]

Speaking of that Monk-build, did anyone ever proofread it? 'cause the level 7 entry has the following:
- Mithral shirt

Epic way to lose all the class features he's sacrificed 7 levels for...

Oh WotC, when will you do the right thing and start hiring third party editors and play testers?

[Gwendol]

AC is vital for survivability, and arcane casters tend to have ways to either increase AC through the roof, and/or add on other defences like blur, mirror image, etc. Druids don't.
Not to say that the druid can't get a ring of mirror image or similar, but I agree with sonofzeal that a lot of advice regarding druids and wildshape aren't given with actual game experience. They seem to be more based on char-op paper constructs and though excercises.

[Coidzor]

I really don't have any more patience for nitpicking on one particular hypothetical encounter against one particular creature.

Well, you did kinda make a big deal about getting dropped before you could even complete your charge. Then you said they were medium-sized archers. That is at least a little bit confusing.

...Or am I mixing up different bits of conversation now? :smallconfused:


Wildshape forms generally have absymal AC for their level - an unoptimized Monk can expect to have significantly more (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20000626e). Druids have no long-duration AC buffs in Core.

The WOTCness, it burns. T_T

[candycorn]

AC is vital for survivability, and arcane casters tend to have ways to either increase AC through the roof, and/or add on other defences like blur, mirror image, etc. Druids don't.
Not to say that the druid can't get a ring of mirror image or similar, but I agree with sonofzeal that a lot of advice regarding druids and wildshape aren't given with actual game experience. They seem to be more based on char-op paper constructs and though excercises.

I think that sonofzeal is speaking as if Monks are Tier 1 and druids are tier 5-6.

This.
Is.
Not.
True.

There's a reason that druids are listed as Tier One. That reason is not barding, and it is not Wilding Clasps.

That reason is that they have some serious crowd control, spells that can trivialize entire encounters, class features that let them ignore two of the three physical stats, and a pocket fighter. And even if the only known feat is Natural Spell, all of the above are still true. Most anything that doesn't fly is seriously nerfed by Entangle, and the control spells only get better.

There is a reason shock trooping barbarians are effective, despite spending most of their lives with an AC measurable with the fingers on one hand. That reason is that the game favors controlling enemies, and offense.

[Tvtyrant]

I think that sonofzeal is speaking as if Monks are Tier 1 and druids are tier 5-6.

This.
Is.
Not.
True.

There's a reason that druids are listed as Tier One. That reason is not barding, and it is not Wilding Clasps.

That reason is that they have some serious crowd control, spells that can trivialize entire encounters, class features that let them ignore two of the three physical stats, and a pocket fighter. And even if the only known feat is Natural Spell, all of the above are still true. Most anything that doesn't fly is seriously nerfed by Entangle, and the control spells only get better.

There is a reason shock trooping barbarians are effective, despite spending most of their lives with an AC measurable with the fingers on one hand. That reason is that the game favors controlling enemies, and offense.

And none of these things are immediately obvious, or we wouldn't get "the monk is over powered" threads. Which was the point of this entire thread; Druids are not in fact easy to play, and the common assumption that you can simply transform into a big smack down form and lay down the hurt is in fact wrong.

[Heliomance]

I think that sonofzeal is speaking as if Monks are Tier 1 and druids are tier 5-6.

This.
Is.
Not.
True.

There's a reason that druids are listed as Tier One. That reason is not barding, and it is not Wilding Clasps.

That reason is that they have some serious crowd control, spells that can trivialize entire encounters, class features that let them ignore two of the three physical stats, and a pocket fighter. And even if the only known feat is Natural Spell, all of the above are still true. Most anything that doesn't fly is seriously nerfed by Entangle, and the control spells only get better.

There is a reason shock trooping barbarians are effective, despite spending most of their lives with an AC measurable with the fingers on one hand. That reason is that the game favors controlling enemies, and offense.
No, no he isn't. I'm pretty sure he's perfectly aware of how powerful Druids are. What he's saying is that out of the box, simply having Wildshape does NOT enable you to wade into the thick of melee and mix it up with the best of them. They are still full spellcasters, and if they act as such, staying back and attempting to keep out of trouble, they'll be fine. If they go "I can turn into a bear now!" and run into melee - which is essentially the advice that gets given a lot - odds on they're going to die messily if they don't know exactly what they're doing.

[Coidzor]

No, no he isn't. I'm pretty sure he's perfectly aware of how powerful Druids are. What he's saying is that out of the box, simply having Wildshape does NOT enable you to wade into the thick of melee and mix it up with the best of them. They are still full spellcasters, and if they act as such, staying back and attempting to keep out of trouble, they'll be fine. If they go "I can turn into a bear now!" and run into melee - which is essentially the advice that gets given a lot - odds on they're going to die messily if they don't know exactly what they're doing.

No it's not. The advice is to summon a whole bunch of bears into melee with the enemy to distract them and then bite off the faces of enemies already drowning in bears. While riding a bear.

Never quite got why we were riding a bear.

[sonofzeal]

How plausible is it that a character takes a full attack regularly on the first round of a combat, with no option to act, detect the encounter, or do anything?
And we don't. Because, despite the fantasy world you are imagining, enemies don't get automatic full attacks on everyone in the party, every round, all the time. And until they do, the necessity of tactics is more important than your flawed premises and conclusions.
I seriously don't get you. How does "sometimes" become "every time" and "at any point of combat" become "must be the first round"? If no front-line character ever gets hit with a full attack, you would have a point. But since that's not a game I've ever seen played, I really can't comment on it.

One final bid for sanity - Polar!Druid relies on full-attacks to do significant damage. Are you presuming that she gets to full-attack regularly, but no monster ever does? This, despite every single monster I listed having either Pounce or Reach or both?


No, no he isn't. I'm pretty sure he's perfectly aware of how powerful Druids are. What he's saying is that out of the box, simply having Wildshape does NOT enable you to wade into the thick of melee and mix it up with the best of them. They are still full spellcasters, and if they act as such, staying back and attempting to keep out of trouble, they'll be fine. If they go "I can turn into a bear now!" and run into melee - which is essentially the advice that gets given a lot - odds on they're going to die messily if they don't know exactly what they're doing.
Indeed, you've nailed it. I've played four different druids, and am quite comfortable with my ability to break a game with them. But I'll usually play them as summoner/utility rather than melee, and won't wildshape at all unless it's 12th level or past and I can afford all sorts of fancy doodads to trick it out.


No it's not. The advice is to summon a whole bunch of bears into melee with the enemy to distract them and then bite off the faces of enemies already drowning in bears. While riding a bear.

Never quite got why we were riding a bear.
Because Bear Cavelry?

More seriously, as to what "the advice" is, AHEM (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12252305&postcount=131). Although the "bear" thing is on there. I just dispute the "be a bear" portion, as a modus operandi.

[lord_khaine]

No it's not. The advice is to summon a whole bunch of bears into melee with the enemy to distract them and then bite off the faces of enemies already drowning in bears. While riding a bear.

Never quite got why we were riding a bear.

Actualy yes, SOZ linked a lot of examples where the advice given were basicaly "get natural spell, then go to town".

You might have given better advice in other post, but the problem is still that bad advice were given out far to often.

[sonofzeal]

Actualy yes, SOZ linked a lot of examples where the advice given were basicaly "get natural spell, then go to town".

You might have given better advice in other post, but the problem is still that bad advice were given out far to often.
...I wonder if it counts as "swordsage'd" if you posted while I was editing it into my own post...

[Coidzor]

Because Bear Cavelry?

More seriously, as to what "the advice" is, AHEM (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12252305&postcount=131).

Weird. Most of that seems to just be saying that the druid should be wildshaped and doesn't even have anything to do with melee whatsoever. :smallconfused: How about that.

Reminds me of the old turn the druid into a bird thing so that he completely obviates melee's ability to get at him and can cast spells at the same time bit.


Actualy yes, SOZ linked a lot of examples where the advice given were basicaly "get natural spell, then go to town".

You might have given better advice in other post, but the problem is still that bad advice were given out far to often.

Bad advice is always given out far too often, as once is too often and more memorable. :smalltongue: But, seriously, if you don't remember the bears riding bears summoning bears bit and you're discussing druids, there's something fishy going on.

[Eldariel]

Oh WotC, when will you do the right thing and start hiring third party editors and play testers?

Ok, upon closer scrutiny holy ****, that level 7 AC is total bull****. Observe:
10 Base
1 Dex
4 Wis
1 Class
1 Deflection

Even with the Mithral Shirt (which costs as much as Bracers of Armor +1 which he prolly should be wearing), we're looking at 21 (if we forget about the fact that he loses his Wis to AC and Class AC Bonus in Light Armor; by rules, the AC would be 16). Realistically, it's 18.

That 23 probably calculates the Dodge-bonus and Haste from Potion of Haste ('cause she has one which lasts 5 rounds, to last her every encounter she's in and 'cause she never fights more than 1 opponent and always acts first to choose the Dodge target).


She should have 18 AC, 1 higher than a Druid in Deinonychus form.

EDIT: Ugh, and the Skill Focus isn't counted in the stats or something. Wtf is up with that. It's like the stats are for a completely different character or something.

Let's not forget her stellar attacks which aren't even listed (?); it's a 3.0 Monk so:
+5/+2 BAB + 3 Str = +8/+5 for 1d8+3 damage. +9/+6 for 1d8+4 for 1 minute in her life. +12/+9 for 1d8+3 for 5 rounds in her life.

EDIT#2: That AC can't be with Haste, 3.0 Haste gives you +4 AC. WTF.

EDIT#3: I think I've deciphered what's going on. The speed makes it clear Haste is indeed being used; in 3.0 Monk speed was not an enhancement bonus (to think out of all things, they'd nerf that) and Haste doubled your speed. As such, we can decipher that the AC is actually 17 of the real stuff + 4 Haste + 2 unexplained bonus.

This leads me to think some fool has done a last second change from Bracers of Armor +1 to Mithral Shirt going "see how much better is this?!" but the stats have been calculated with Bracers of Armor +1. Then the second point is the Dodge bonus. Through this complex logic we get 23 AC out. But given it only lasts 5 rounds in his life and only in 3.0 and only against one opponent of his choice, I think we can discount that.

[candycorn]

I seriously don't get you. How does "sometimes" become "every time" and "at any point of combat" become "must be the first round"? If no front-line character ever gets hit with a full attack, you would have a point. But since that's not a game I've ever seen played, I really can't comment on it."at any point of combat" must be first round, because otherwise?
A pounce creature isn't charging (entangle, sleet storm, obscuring mist, etc)
A summoned creature is soaking hits (SNA)
A ranged creature isn't safely ranging (wind wall, SNA)
A landbound creature isn't meleeing (Air Walk, Spider Climb)

The druid's list of control/mobility spells is as long as a giraffe's neck. If you give a druid a round to cast, chances are? Your attack bonus no longer matters. You're not effectively attacking any more.


One final bid for sanity - Polar!Druid relies on full-attacks to do significant damage. Are you presuming that she gets to full-attack regularly, but no monster ever does? This, despite every single monster I listed having either Pounce or Reach or both?Dire Lion is feeling mighty lonely, as a Large Core 8HD animal with pounce. Wildshape is good because you DON'T have to pick a bear every time. You can pick a Lion, or a Tiger, or a bear (oh, my). You can even pick monkeys, though you won't have flying just yet at level 8. Or Dire Bat, if you're favoring vision obscuring spells.

And at what point did "all you need is wildshape and natural spell" become "you must shift into substandard forms at every opportunity and offer your exposed throat to enemies".

Wildshape/Natural Spell is so much more than you are trying to make it to be. The core benefit of Natural Spell is that you don't have to choose between wildshape and casting. You can do both. So assuming that a wildshaped druid with natural spell isn't casting is like assuming that a level 20 monk is full attacking without using flurry of misses.

[Tvtyrant]

Ok, holy ****, that level 7 AC is total bull****. Observe:
10 Base
1 Dex
4 Wis
1 Class
1 Deflection

Even with the Mithral Shirt (which costs as much as Bracers of Armor +1 which he prolly should be wearing), we're looking at 21 (if we forget about the fact that he loses his Wis to AC and Class AC Bonus in Light Armor; by rules, the AC would be 16). Realistically, it's 18.

That 23 probably calculates the Dodge-bonus and Haste from Potion of Haste ('cause she has one which lasts 5 rounds, to last her every encounter she's in and 'cause she never fights more than 1 opponent and always acts first to choose the Dodge target).


She should have 18 AC, 1 higher than a Druid in Deinonychus form.

... So what you are telling me, is that WotC is so bad at its own game, it has to blatantly cheat to maintain mediocrity? I do not know how to respond to that.

[sonofzeal]

Weird. Most of that seems to just be saying that the druid should be wildshaped and doesn't even have anything to do with melee whatsoever. :smallconfused: How about that.

Reminds me of the old turn the druid into a bird thing so that he completely obviates melee's ability to get at him and can cast spells at the same time bit.
The major theme can be summed up with this one:

"Take Natural Spell and that's basically all the optimisation you'll ever need."

Change that to...

"Take Natural Spell and wildshape into a Dire Hawk, and that's basically all the optimisation you'll ever need."

...and I'll be happy.


Bad advice is always given out far too often, as once is too often and more memorable. :smalltongue: But, seriously, if you don't remember the bears riding bears summoning bears bit and you're discussing druids, there's something fishy going on.
Bears riding bears got quoted in that list. It starts with "be a bear". That's usually a bad place to start, if all you plan on doing is summon, because sometimes things won't go as planned. Also, because SNA is a 1 round cast to most characters, and hence often won't be active until the monster has already closed to melee, even without ambushes and the like.

[Killer Angel]

If they go "I can turn into a bear now!" and run into melee - which is essentially the advice that gets given a lot - odds on they're going to die messily if they don't know exactly what they're doing.

The advice is still good. No one is telling: go wildshape and charge, while forgetting all your other class features: it should be granted, that you're running into melee with your bear companion and 1 or 2 buffs.
If the player's not doing this, the same player would play a fighter with 2h combat style, chain shirt, weapon focus and dodge, pretending to exchange full routines.

[Eldariel]

... So what you are telling me, is that WotC is so bad at its own game, it has to blatantly cheat to maintain mediocrity? I do not know how to respond to that.

I figured out what's going on! Check the EDIT #3! Basically, it's a 3.0 character with some really strange typo that put Mithril Shirt over Bracers of Armor +1 (stats are calculated for Mithril Shirt tho), but the stats are with the Potions in use.

[Coidzor]

The major theme can be summed up with this one:

"Take Natural Spell and that's basically all the optimisation you'll ever need."

Change that to...

"Take Natural Spell and wildshape into a Dire Hawk, and that's basically all the optimisation you'll ever need."

...and I'll be happy.

Then you've got unrealistic expectations of the internet and your ability to change it and will never be happy.



TBears riding bears got quoted in that list. It starts with "be a bear". That's usually a bad place to start, if all you plan on doing is summon, because sometimes things won't go as planned. Also, because SNA is a 1 round cast to most characters, and hence often won't be active until the monster has already closed to melee, even without ambushes and the like.

Wildshaping in the middle of combat is similarly nixed, besides, animal companion + rest of party means fun variables.

And "sometimes things won't go as planned?" Seriously? Weak. Things never go as planned unless you're making the plans. But then you're bringing spellcasting into it and you've probably got a batman wizard friend if not a GOD.

[sonofzeal]

The advice is still good. No one is telling: go wildshape and charge, while forgetting all your other class features: it should be granted, that you're running into melee with your bear companion and 1 or 2 buffs.
If the player's not doing this, the same player would play a fighter with 2h combat style, chain shirt, weapon focus and dodge, pretending to exchange full routines.

The problem is that, unlike Sor/Wiz, Druids have a drastic shortage of passive defensive buffs. Barkskin is the signature one, and its bonus is relatively small and it doesn't have an hour/lvl duration. Stoneskin, a 5th lvl spell, is the only other one I see in core unless you count Cat's Grace (strictly inferior to Barkskin as a defensive buff unless you're worried about touch attacks).

Teaming up with your AC goes without saying. But you'd better hope that candycorn is right and the overwhelming majority of encounters can be effectively ended in the 1st round without any real risk of the monster retaliating, because otherwise things could go very poorly, very quickly.

[Gwendol]

I think Tvtyrant and Heliomance has laid it out nicely for me. Sonofzeal's argument is a valid one regarding the liability of wildshape.

[Killer Angel]

Also, because SNA is a 1 round cast to most characters, and hence often won't be active until the monster has already closed to melee, even without ambushes and the like.

To be fair, it's very difficult to surprise a druid, with spot and listen as class skills, based on a high wisdom, and the support of the animal companion's senses.
Regarding perception, only spells are better than the druid.

[TroubleBrewing]

Regarding perception, only spells are better than the druid.

This is as nitpicky as it gets, and I sincerely apologize for this, but... Factotum would like a word with you.

[Killer Angel]

This is as nitpicky as it gets, and I sincerely apologize for this, but... Factotum would like a word with you.

Yep, but the discussion was primarly centered on Core. Or at least, I was reading it this way. :smallwink:

edit: wizard, druid and factotum = the group will be surprised very rarely.

[candycorn]

The major theme can be summed up with this one:

"Take Natural Spell and that's basically all the optimisation you'll ever need."

Change that to...

"Take Natural Spell and wildshape into a Dire Hawk, and that's basically all the optimisation you'll ever need."

...and I'll be happy. Then live in unhappiness. Choosing what form to wildshape into is a tactical decision, not character optimisation. Choosing what spells a wizard has in their spellbook is optimisation. Choosing what the wizard prepares is gameplay, not optimisation. Choosing what the wizard casts is gameplay, not optimization.

Choosing the form a druid selects when the druid wildshapes is no more optimisation than which hallway the druid walks down in a maze.

But you'd better hope that candycorn is right and the overwhelming majority of encounters can be effectively ended in the 1st round without any real risk of the monster retaliating, because otherwise things could go very poorly, very quickly.
...what? I didn't say that. I said that if an enemy can't full attack you on the first round, with the plethora of druid options for spellcasting available, it's not going to. Between Entangle, Wind Wall, Obscuring mist, sleet storm, and Summon Nature's Ally, a druid in a mobile wildshape form can keep the enemies occupied for the 3-5 rounds a fight is likely to last, without ever entering melee.

But the only part of that that is actual OPTIMISATION is Natural Spell. The rest is tactical use of what optimisation has given you.

[TroubleBrewing]

edit: wizard, druid and factotum = the group will be surprised very rarely.

Toss in a Cleric there for Commune, and that party will never have another surprise birthday party again.

[sonofzeal]

...what? I didn't say that. I said that if an enemy can't full attack you on the first round, with the plethora of druid options for spellcasting available, it's not going to.
Right, because everything always goes according to plan in D&D. Also, I'm focused mostly on the perception of Druid as a melee warrior. I've quoted forumites and handbooks that set it up as one, and I've seen them played that way repeatedly, so I don't think that's a strawman. If you're not playing Druid as a melee warrior, well, good for you. It's not really relevant to this thread though.

[MukkTB]

I think Sonofzeal has laid out a sufficient argument that wildshaped melee druids w/o support are a bad idea. He hasn't proved the noobieproof thing but I think he's backed off of that. Falling back to declaring that natural spell is optimization and use of it in game doesn't pertain to optimization feels like admission of defeat.

Giving 'just wildshape and pwn' advice is clearly inferior to a paragraph of reasoned thought that says 'just wildshape and pwn by...' The noobie needs the explanation of how, not what.

Of course if you want to argue noobieproof I'll go back to arguing why a druid is.

[Killer Angel]

Choosing what form to wildshape into is a tactical decision, not character optimisation.


True, but some forms got generally a better chassis than other ones.



...what? I didn't say that. I said that if an enemy can't full attack you on the first round, with the plethora of druid options for spellcasting available, it's not going to.


+1 (unless there is a large group of different enemies swarming all around).
Letting an enemy freely full attack you, happens with bad decisions: even with optimization, you'll suffer from awful tactical choices.


Giving 'just wildshape and pwn' advice is clearly inferior to a paragraph of reasoned thought that says 'just wildshape and pwn by...' The noobie needs the explanation of how, not what.


Of course it's inferior. It's the same as suggesting "Play a wizard, be a God".
But "wildshape ans NS" remains the basic advice.

[Coidzor]

I think Sonofzeal has laid out a sufficient argument that wildshaped melee druids w/o support are a bad idea.

If you're playing without support then you're a solo character that's not using 2/3 of their class features. That's just dumb, suicidally so. Even though wildshape is good, deliberately misunderstanding its full use and deliberately eschewing support for wildshape (you know, the reason you take natural spell) is, of course, going to have a bad result.

Just as surely as a wizard who takes nothing but feather fall is going to come to a bad end in the ocean.


Giving 'just wildshape and pwn' advice is clearly inferior to a paragraph of reasoned thought that says 'just wildshape and pwn by...' The noobie needs the explanation of how, not what.

I imagine the obligatory handbook links count as a quasi-third of that.

[lord_khaine]

+1 (unless there is a large group of different enemies swarming all around).
Letting an enemy freely full attack you, happens with bad decisions: even with optimization, you'll suffer from awful tactical choices.

-1

If you are going into melee, then you will also have to be prepared for eating the occational full attack, that or a lot of aoo's.


Of course if you want to argue noobieproof I'll go back to arguing why a druid is.

It isnt, there isnt such a thing in this game.

If you want arguments for why there isnt such a thing, then take a look at the elven druid in the start of the post.

Actualy, i will argue that Cleric, Barbarian and Fighter are the most safe choices for new players,

[Coidzor]

If you want arguments for why there isnt such a thing, then take a look at the elven druid in the start of the post.

You mean Vadania? The thing made by the old men who designed the system and who couldn't be bothered to remember how the system they designed worked? :smallamused:


Actualy, i will argue that Cleric, Barbarian and Fighter are the most safe choices for new players,

...If you wanna spend a while going over trap feats with a newbie, sure. :smallconfused:

[Anarchy_Kanya]

I agree with SOZ.

The only noobproof class in D&D is Commoner.

[sonofzeal]

If you're playing without support then you're a solo character that's not using 2/3 of their class features. That's just dumb, suicidally so. Even though wildshape is good, deliberately misunderstanding its full use and deliberately eschewing support for wildshape (you know, the reason you take natural spell) is, of course, going to have a bad result.

Just as surely as a wizard who takes nothing but feather fall is going to come to a bad end in the ocean.
This sounds rather similar to a different post a few minutes ago. I think my response to them (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12259303&postcount=181) is equally relevant to you.


I imagine the obligatory handbook links count as a quasi-third of that.
Actually, I don't think I saw a single handbook link in the various threads I went through for quotes.

[Killer Angel]

-1

If you are going into melee, then you will also have to be prepared for eating the occational full attack, that or a lot of aoo's.


To be prepared for eating full routines, it's a different kind of tactical choice. It's very different from "I don't care about preparation and charge the hydra".
But i find very hard to "force" a druid to eat full attacks if the druid doesn't agree.

Edit: in my previous statement, i should have specified "Letting an enemy freely full attack you while you're unprepared for melee is a bad decision: even with optimization, you'll suffer from awful tactical choices"

[Coidzor]

This sounds rather similar to a different post a few minutes ago. I think my response to them (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12259303&postcount=181) is equally relevant to you.

In that case, if you're screwed with your animal companion and party backing you up while you're using spells to soften your enemies up or incapacitate them or isolate them from one another, you'd be screwed if you stayed as a dirty hippy in stained robes.

Because if the pooch is screwed it doesn't really matter where you are on the battlefield.


Actually, I don't think I saw a single handbook link in the various threads I went through for quotes.

How odd. Then it's safe to say that our experiences of the typical thread on class advice and similar matters are substantially different. Then again, I tend to skew things by generally giving out those links if I don't see them already offered.

[sonofzeal]

To be prepared for eating full routines, it's a different kind of tactical choice. It's very different from "I don't care about preparation and charge the hydra".
But i find very hard to "force" a druid to eat full attacks if the druid doesn't agree.
Well, if the Druid is playing as a mage, yeah it can be a little hard. There's still ways, a decent DM can almost always find ways to threaten PCs (unless they're played by Tippy, but that goes without saying).

But that's Druid-as-mage. I'm dealing with the Druid-as-frontline-warrior archetype here though, and that sort of Druid can expect to eat full routines pretty regularly. Any of those CR 8 monsters I listed a while ago can easily tank a pounce from a DireLion!Druid, and can easily demolish it in return the next round if they're still up (except the Stone Giant, he has to work for it a bit, but Power Attack gives him the tools to do so). Sometimes the combined DPS of the party will take something down before it ever gets a chance to really attack, but anyone engaging things in melee will almost certainly get swung at in return with fair frequency.

So... I agree with what you're saying, but it isn't addressing the point I'm trying to make.



In that case, if you're screwed with your animal companion and party backing you up while you're using spells to soften your enemies up or incapacitate them or isolate them from one another, you'd be screwed if you stayed as a dirty hippy in stained robes.

Because if the pooch is screwed it doesn't really matter where you are on the battlefield.
The Dirty Hippy in Stained Robes should expect to have a similar AC to the Rogue/Monk. Checking various official statblocks for Vadania seems to bear this out - heck, the lvl 5 version in the first post had AC 20!

So no, the pooch isn't screwed. AC is a valuable resource up until at least lvl 10, as I hope my various statistical work has demonstrated. AC makes a significant difference in survivability when things go pear-shaped. There's ways around not having AC, and Wizards are masters of those, but as I've repeatedly pointed out Druids don't even have a quarter of the depth nor quality of defensive spells.

[candycorn]

+1 (unless there is a large group of different enemies swarming all around).
Letting an enemy freely full attack you, happens with bad decisions: even with optimization, you'll suffer from awful tactical choices.
If there's a lot of enemies, they're lower CR. Quite a bit lower. And even then, entangle will likely cover most of them. The party beatstick can deal with the rest.


-1

If you are going into melee, then you will also have to be prepared for eating the occational full attack, that or a lot of aoo's.That's a big if.

This isn't advice given for "I wanna build a melee druid."
It's advice given for "I wanna build a druid."





Actualy, i will argue that Cleric, Barbarian and Fighter are the most safe choices for new playersI would eliminate fighter from that list. Feat selection requires far more finesse and knowledge than most new players will have. Paladin is more likely, but comes with an alignment strait-jacket.

But that's Druid-as-mage. I'm dealing with the Druid-as-frontline-warrior archetype here though, and that sort of Druid can expect to eat full routines pretty regularly.So, you're dealing with "druid-as-half-a-druid"? Seriously, with the way you're talking about playing it, don't take natural spell. You're really just a bear with an animal buddy.
Any of those CR 8 monsters I listed a while ago can easily tank a pounce from a DireLion!Druid, and can easily demolish it in return the next round if they're still up (except the Stone Giant, he has to work for it a bit, but Power Attack gives him the tools to do so).I'm sure they can. But how about a pounce from a lion, a charge from a rhinocerous companion, a charge from the party barbarian, and an (enervation/solid fog/fear) from the party wizard?
Suddenly, the idea that this is a team sport becomes clear.

Sometimes the combined DPS of the party will take something down before it ever gets a chance to really attack, but anyone engaging things in melee will almost certainly get swung at in return with fair frequency.DPS? This isn't an MMO. This is a turn-based game.

Typically, fights may take several rounds, but after the first, it's mostly cleanup. The outcome is known, you just have to finish what was started.

[sonofzeal]

That's a big if.

This isn't advice given for "I wanna build a melee druid."
It's advice given for "I wanna build a druid."
From Treantmonk's PF Druid handbook:


In 3.5 the Druid was... a more versatile fighter replacement, with an animal companion as a secondary tank, and was a primary caster if he ever got time to cast in between ripping the guts out of the enemy with teeth and claw.

The amount of text and advice out there implying Druids are melee brutes is staggering. Even the PHB's description of the class only references Wildshape as bringing "additional offensive power" to the team. In short, it's not at all unreasonable nor uncommon for people to try to use the Druid for melee, or to tell others that 3.5 Druids are awesome in melee and should be used that way. I see it presented that way to newbies or casual players on a regular basis, and I felt a counteropinion might be helpful for them.

[Killer Angel]

This isn't advice given for "I wanna build a melee druid."
It's advice given for "I wanna build a druid."


I believe sonofzeal's point is that, the usual suggestion for druid is: "take natural spell and tear faces off", avoiding the part on how improve your chances to survive in combat, and omitting a good half of the druid's options.
The answers to the question "i wanna be a druid" almost always tends to suggest "melee combat", forgetting the rest of the optimization.

edit: kinda when someone ask "pimp my monk", and the answer is "play a swordsage". Which is true, but still it gives minimal help.
The druid is strong also for the battlefield control spells, but the basic suggestion don't explicitly tells about it, and mastering battlefield control spells it's not immediate for newbies.


So... I agree with what you're saying, but it isn't addressing the point I'm trying to make.

Am I more into it, now?

[candycorn]

The amount of text and advice out there implying Druids are melee brutes is staggering.How does "more versatile" equate to "RAWR MUST ONLY WILDSHAPE INTO BEAR AND ATTACK"


Even the PHB's description of the class only references Wildshape as bringing "additional offensive power" to the team.Yep. It does. After all, the fighter can mount a dire lion for his lance charge. Or the wizard can mount the dire bat and rain more offense down.

In short, it's not at all unreasonable nor uncommon for people to try to use the Druid for melee, or to tell others that 3.5 Druids are awesome in melee and should be used that way. I see it presented that way to newbies or casual players on a regular basis, and I felt a counteropinion might be helpful for them.No, it's not. And if you read most actual druid guides, they call much attention to all of a druid's features.

But that isn't character optimization. That is a tactical consideration. There is a vast difference. It's the difference between building a race car and driving one.

Optimization wise? All you really need to play a druid successfully is Natural Spell, a decent wisdom and Constitution, and use of existing class features. This is truth. Attempts to say otherwise are misinformation.

Now, if someone takes that character, and plays it poorly, of course it has a chance of dying. Likely a good one. It's like building a Formula One car, and letting a 6 year old take it on the course. It doesn't mean that the mechanic who tuned the car was bad. Just the driver.

And if a druid with natural spell dies, I assure you, it is not due to the strength of the chassis, but rather, due to the mismanagement of it.

[lord_khaine]

You mean Vadania? The thing made by the old men who designed the system and who couldn't be bothered to remember how the system they designed worked?


But the problem is, that char is very close to something a new player would build, unless he had a more experienced one to help him.


...If you wanna spend a while going over trap feats with a newbie, sure.


But at this level of play, and while staying within core, then a lot of the trap feats isnt traps.
A fighter could most likely take a random pick of fighter bonus feats, and still do fine as long as he focus on the stats recomendet by the PHB.


Edit: in my previous statement, i should have specified "Letting an enemy freely full attack you while you're unprepared for melee is a bad decision: even with optimization, you'll suffer from awful tactical choices"


But that brings us back to the problem of the new druid Beliving he is ready for melee, and therefore going in close because he is now a bear.


If there's a lot of enemies, they're lower CR. Quite a bit lower. And even then, entangle will likely cover most of them. The party beatstick can deal with the rest.



That still require the new druid to figure out the use of entangle on his own.


That's a big if.

This isn't advice given for "I wanna build a melee druid."
It's advice given for "I wanna build a druid."



No, thats actualy something that shouldnt be a IF at all, since the difference between a melee druid and a druid isnt something a new player would be aware off at all.


I would eliminate fighter from that list. Feat selection requires far more finesse and knowledge than most new players will have. Paladin is more likely, but comes with an alignment strait-jacket.


But the fighter really doesnt need his feats to do fine at this level, he should have placed his stats in Str Con and Dex as recomendet by the PHB, and combined with some decent armor then that would be more than enough for him to get by.

And as i said earlier, just going with picks from the fighter bonus list would serve him well enough, as long as he doesnt do something retardet, like picking TWF, and then going sword&board.


DPS? This isn't an MMO. This is a turn-based game.


Yes, this should clearly be DP6S, we have a lower refresh rate here in the real world of d&d.


And if a druid with natural spell dies, I assure you, it is not due to the strength of the chassis, but rather, due to the mismanagement of it.


But then the guy who said, "dont worry, this thing is completely save and you have nothing to worry about" to the new driver before he then drove off a cliff because he couldnt find the brakes, should be held responsible for the accident.

[sonofzeal]

Typically, fights may take several rounds, but after the first, it's mostly cleanup. The outcome is known, you just have to finish what was started.
See, that runs very much counter to my experience. There's certainly fights we dominated in the first round, but any DM worth their salt at least threatens the party. When I DM, fights routinely get down to the wire before anything gets resolved. When I PC, I regularly face opposition that's a little intimidating.

My group is pretty casual though. The Fighters usually take Weapon Focus/Spec, and the mages love Fireball. I'm sure a part of players like us could run circles around them and any encounter that'd be a decent challenge for them. But I'd also hazard a guess that most tables are more like them than like us. I meet all sorts of D&D players in the circles I travel in, and few know the kinds of abuses and tricks that are offhand knowledge to us. Nobody I've met in real life and talked to about D&D was really competing on our level, although a few came close.

Point is, when we're explicitly talking about casual tables, assuming every single encounter is effectively over in the first round (except for mopping up) is faulty.

[Taelas]

The amount of text and advice out there implying Druids are melee brutes is staggering. Even the PHB's description of the class only references Wildshape as bringing "additional offensive power" to the team. In short, it's not at all unreasonable nor uncommon for people to try to use the Druid for melee, or to tell others that 3.5 Druids are awesome in melee and should be used that way. I see it presented that way to newbies or casual players on a regular basis, and I felt a counteropinion might be helpful for them.

You are completely missing the point.

A bog-standard druid is a fair character in melee, with zero optimization required beyond a decent Con score (which every class needs). They are equal or better than the unoptimized fighter at the fighter's role. Hell, it'll be better at three different unoptimized fighters' roles, at the same time!

With zero optimization. You can ignore 2/3rds of your class and be okay.

This is why people talk about the Druid as if it's a "melee brute": because it IS, right out of the box. It's not the toughest, and it's not the strongest, but it works.

[lord_khaine]

A bog-standard druid is a fair character in melee, with zero optimization required beyond a decent Con score (which every class needs). They are equal or better than the unoptimized fighter at the fighter's role. Hell, it'll be better at three different unoptimized fighters' roles, at the same time!

With zero optimization. You can ignore 2/3rds of your class and be okay.


If you had read the threat, then you would see this have allready been proven false.

[Amphetryon]

If you had read the threat, then you would see this have allready been proven false for some players in some cases. Clarified your point.

[sonofzeal]

Clarified your point.
When he says "zero optimization required" and "melee", that removed the need for your clarification.


Thank you, Szar_Lakol. I was occasionally worried that people would think I was making a strawman argument.

[MukkTB]

So I do have to argue the noobieproof? Well lets take a look at the character in the first post.


hp 28; AC 20; SV Fort 6, Ref +4, Will +8
That's not an impressive tank. At all. But I guess I have to point out that there is a tank there. The character can be expected to survive low level garbage and is only threatened with being squished when facing and focused on by an equal level threat. Compared to a noobie wizard? This is workable.
Not a liability when faced with minor/secondary threats.
Will get beaten up if a heavy hitter makes contact.


Atk +5 melee (1d6+1/18-20, scimitar), or +5 ranged (1d4, sling)
This is pretty bad. There isn't much I can say to mitigate how bad this is. Lets agree that when this is being used the character is a waste of space.
Cant threaten to knock down a 6 HP goblin reliably.


Animal Empathy +7, Concentration +9, Handle Animal +7, Spellcraft +9, Wilderness Lore +11
Hippy druid. What can you do? Tell me which kind of mushrooms to eat and train my animals. Oh and you know something about magic. Given the fact that magic is somewhat important I will forgive the fact that you are useless when we're not hugging the trees. But you're not gonna win any prizes with that skill selection.
Can deal with animals, threats, mounts, pets, ect.
Won't die if cut off from civilization.
No spot/sneak skills so the monsters are free to try to come eat them.


Scribe Scroll, Weapon Focus (scimitar)
Having scrolls isn't bad. I'm not a big fan of scrolls and I don't know what the playground opinion of them is. Trying to fix your melee by giving it a +1 effect is bad. Awfully bad.
Can stockpile scrolls for later use if there is downtime.

Animal Companion
Its not established which one this noobie build has. Still not even a noobie is gonna select Frufru the toy poodle as their animal companion. Maybe it will be a scout. Maybe it will be a crappy melee. Maybe it will be a mount? I'm not sure.
Animal that does something moderately useful.

Druid Spell List
PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER... well at least you can heal. A noobie is gonna heal if for no other reason than to stop the whining of the injured people. And you can SNA. A noobie will do that too.
Healing out of combat.
Summoning things.

Shapechange
Turn into something with bad AC. Go into the middle of combat. Get knocked unconscious and contribute nothing for the rest of the encounter.
Can do a stupid melee thing that they should not do twice.

So in my opinion this character is not a liability. Its not wonderful. Its not being played tier 1. But it can contribute. I would let it into my party. Lets assume I couldn't give them good instructions. The character would still provide out of combat healing for free. It would increase the chance of winning a fight between SNA and whatever the animal companion is doing. It would keep me alive in the wilderness if I didn't have the skills myself.

Noobie proof doesn't carry a 100% guarantee. It doesn't say the character will be great. It just claims the character won't be a liability with no value. It will be worth the air it breaths to have around. Between the healing and the animal companions contribution to combat as a lookout or combatant I feel that that air is spent well enough.

[Killer Angel]

Noobie proof doesn't carry a 100% guarantee.

I have to agree with this.
A newbie will have a sorc with fireball, a veteran player will pick haste.
With a druid? both the players will pick Natural Spells.

The druid it's newbieproof, 'cause you'll do the right choices, even without knowing. The druid's success, will increase with the experience of the player (rght spells selection, right animals, and so on), but it's almost impossible to screw a druid's core build.
Even the newbie will end with a character with enormous potential.

We can discuss about the too vague suggestions given on forums, but not on the newbie-friendly part.

[Gwendol]

To be prepared for eating full routines, it's a different kind of tactical choice. It's very different from "I don't care about preparation and charge the hydra".
But i find very hard to "force" a druid to eat full attacks if the druid doesn't agree.

Edit: in my previous statement, i should have specified "Letting an enemy freely full attack you while you're unprepared for melee is a bad decision: even with optimization, you'll suffer from awful tactical choices"

Isn't the whole point of this argument that druid's in wildshape don't have much to offset their lousy AC (levels 1-6) ? That barkskin isn't enough?

[Gnaeus]

Speaking of that Monk-build, did anyone ever proofread it? 'cause the level 7 entry has the following:
- Mithral shirt

Epic way to lose all the class features he's sacrificed 7 levels for...

Indeed. Its actual AC is 19 (18 if it wears the shirt). -2 (dex and dodge) if flat footed. Druids AC is better. Heck, if the druid wants to really get into low op land, he can take Dodge too...


Isn't the whole point of this argument that druid's in wildshape don't have much to offset their lousy AC (levels 1-6) ? That barkskin isn't enough?

The general factor that most people are forgetting is grapple/trip. Yes, it doesn't always work against large melee brutes, but against many opponents (like almost all humanoids who arent high level casters or totemists) they are grappled before they can even get their full attack, or they are sitting on their backside trying to decide whether to full attack at -4 or stand up and eat AOOs from druid, Pet and anyone else nearby.

Druid as fighter isn't about tanking, it is about crowd control. Either Druid or Pet locks down an opponent, other one eats his face. On his turn, he takes one or more attacks escaping grapple, maybe swings once, and by his next turn he is locked down again. True, this doesn't work on large creatures without a minimal amount of optimization or strategy (like taking Improved Grapple, or casting Bite of WereX), but it works an awful lot of the time.

I played a whole campaign as a melee druid. After a while, all the big boss fights would have two bosses. Pet and I would grapple/destroy one, the other 3 members of the party together would drop the other. I almost always took less damage than the other 3, and usually killed my enemy faster. I am not really proud of this (I should have held optimization closer to rest of party), but it wasn't exactly hard. Natural Spell and Companion Spellbond pretty much covered everything.

(See, I can cite anecdotal non-evidence too...)

[Gwendol]

+1 to grapple and trip. But again, this might not be what the inexperienced player would do, and it is not how the wildshape druid often is described to be.

[Reprimand]

Four Words. Master. Of. Many. Forms.

Druid is just a dip class for that. and it will eat entire encounters.

[Amphetryon]

+1 to grapple and trip. But again, this might not be what the inexperienced player would do, and it is not how the wildshape druid often is described to be.
At the point where the Bear Cavalry, with Bears (TM) starts to become viable, it's less discussed, but most guides talk about having a Riding Dog Trained For War, if not a Wolf, as the starting AC, with at least passing mention of the Trip attacks inherent to those companions. So, it does come up, just sort of parenthetically. Similarly, one of the reasons Bears are recommended is their high Grapple modifier; there's an old thread on 339 breaking down the value of various ACs where this is explicit. So, again, the value of those tactics comes up, but is implied with the recommended Animal Companions, rather than explicitly stated. Some folks might consider that 'laziness' on the part of folks giving the advice; others might parse it as giving the folks asking for help credit for being able to read the stat blocks and comprehend why things are consistently recommended, once they're pointed in the right direction. I can't speak to everyone's experience, but I've been known to get frustrated IRL when I ask a question and get a response that doesn't feel like it credits my intelligence.

[lord_khaine]

The general factor that most people are forgetting is grapple/trip. Yes, it doesn't always work against large melee brutes, but against many opponents (like almost all humanoids who arent high level casters or totemists) they are grappled before they can even get their full attack, or they are sitting on their backside trying to decide whether to full attack at -4 or stand up and eat AOOs from druid, Pet and anyone else nearby.

If most people are forgetting it, how can you then expect a new player to know about it?

Also, before you grow large neither of these options will be that good, and may in fact even be risky.


(See, I can cite anecdotal non-evidence too...)

And the reason for why its non-evidence is that we are discussing new players, something you clearly are not.



Four Words. Master. Of. Many. Forms.

Druid is just a dip class for that. and it will eat entire encounters.

No it wont, MoMF most likely just make things worse.

[Eldariel]

Indeed. Its actual AC is 19 (18 if it wears the shirt). -2 (dex and dodge) if flat footed. Druids AC is better. Heck, if the druid wants to really get into low op land, he can take Dodge too...

Did not count Dodge as it's not a reliable source of AC. It only works on a single target and only when you have had the chance to designate a target.

[lord_khaine]

So in my opinion this character is not a liability. Its not wonderful. Its not being played tier 1. But it can contribute. I would let it into my party. Lets assume I couldn't give them good instructions. The character would still provide out of combat healing for free. It would increase the chance of winning a fight between SNA and whatever the animal companion is doing. It would keep me alive in the wilderness if I didn't have the skills myself.

Noobie proof doesn't carry a 100% guarantee. It doesn't say the character will be great. It just claims the character won't be a liability with no value. It will be worth the air it breaths to have around. Between the healing and the animal companions contribution to combat as a lookout or combatant I feel that that air is spent well enough.

This analysis was very good, but though i cant find faults with any of your points, then i still do disagree with your final conclussion.

The word proof does more or less indicate a 100% guarantee (or at least something around 90%), but we do have 2 weak spots, melee combat with either scimitar or animal shape, that a new player might accidentialy stumple into.
And thats besides the risk of not giving your animal companion the needet tricks for acting like a lookout.

Anyway, in the case of the druids main funktion in the party is its healing spells, then the player might as well have chosen a cleric, and at least gotten spontaneous caster + heavy armor.

[Heliomance]

Four Words. Master. Of. Many. Forms.

Druid is just a dip class for that. and it will eat entire encounters.

Nope. MoMF is a nerf for Druids. It removes their spellcasting progression. MoMF is only for players that want to be wildshape specialists, and they're normally pointed at Wildshape Ranger for entry. It is in fact thoroughly unrecommended for anyone else.

[candycorn]

The word proof does more or less indicate a 100% guarantee (or at least something around 90%), but we do have 2 weak spots, melee combat with either scimitar or animal shape, that a new player might accidentialy stumple into.
No, it means that the character build can be competent, regardless of player experience.

If your version were correct, pun pun would be the only thing newbie-proof.

[LordBlades]

IMHO the druids might not be 100% newbie-proof, but they're pretty close.

They are, along with the cleric in core the hardest to screw up class:
-You pick the wrong spells? Just pick some new ones tomorrow.
-You picked the wrong feats? Well, that might hurt a bit, but as long as you took Natural Spell you'll be all right. And most newbies will pick Natural Spell because it's the only 'Druid only' feat in Core, and in most games 'class x only' stuff tends to be pretty awesome for class x.
-Also, unlike the cleric, the book doesn't quite push you in the wrong direction (playing a healbot).


Most of the good melee choices in core(dragonhide armor/shield, wild armor) aren't that hard to find out for a new guy. There are only 2 druid specific items in the DMG: Druid's Vestment and Wild Armor and I bet any druid player will inquire about 'Druid items' at some point. As for dragonhide, from my own personal experience, quite a few payers asked when presented with the druid's 'no metal armor' limitation if they 'could make wooden armor'; any decent DM would probably point them to dragonhide at that point

[Doug Lampert]

No, it means that the character build can be competent, regardless of player experience.

If your version were correct, pun pun would be the only thing newbie-proof.

And the druid characters presented are all competent. They contribute to the party. If a druid is starting at 75% HP because the party is short on healing, then a fighter is vastly worse than a druid (which contributes to healing as well as doing damage).

DougL

[Gnaeus]

If most people are forgetting it, how can you then expect a new player to know about it?

Because it is in the stat block of their AC and their wildshape form.


Also, before you grow large neither of these options will be that good, and may in fact even be risky.

Really? A tripping wolf/dog is good at level 1. Cheetah and leopard at level 4. Dire wolf, Bear or Tiger at 7. Perfectly good options all the way up.


And the reason for why its non-evidence is that we are discussing new players, something you clearly are not.

Neither are any of the other players who posted "I sucked as a newb druid" threads. I did just fine as a newb druid. The only thing that I really needed the boards to explain was that I needed to dial my druid back down a notch or 3. THAT is the problem if you ask me.

And the only thing that was even moderate op on that character was companion spellbond, and I only say that because it isn't core. I took spells from PHB and SPC. I took feats that were OBVIOUSLY intended for druids to use. This isn't some wierd combo for unusual synergy, it is a very straightforward use of normal class features and feats that may as well say Ranger/Druid on them.



No it wont, MoMF most likely just make things worse.

Agreed.

[missmvicious]

Hm. Im a campaign I'm currently in, a friend of mine (his first time playing 3.5) is playing a Human Druid. He just made level 5; we're all leveling up our characters this week.

He finds the character to be confusing and frustrating. We all started from level 1, to ease the first-timers into the concept of spell usage, skill checks, and leveling up, but even still, at level 5, he's not sure how to use his Druid.

It's not an intelligence thing; he's a smart guy. But it took him a few levels just to understand how an Animal companion worked, and he's starting to train his wolf, Epitaph, so that it will have more utility in and out of combat. He's starting to discover 2 few spells that he really likes: Barkskin and Flaming Sphere, but that's essentially all he uses.

I know where he's coming from. Spell-casters aren't really noob friendly anyway, but a Druid is a best-of-all-worlds player: kind of a rogue/ranger/cleric/fighter without all the multi-class headaches. But that's a lot to chew on when you're still trying to learn the difference between Knowledge: Arcana and Spellcraft checks.

IMHO: a good beginner class is Ranger or Fighter. Druid's... not so much. Sure, they're harder to optimize, but a good and fair-minded DM will still find a way to make the game fun. Not all heros have to be razor-edged gods of war, and odds are, even if you try to optimize your first character, it's still going to come out wrong. I still haven't built an optimized character in 3.5 or 4E, but I have lot's of fun anyway.

I think, in a lot of cases, this board is full of talent. A lot of talent. In fact, I'll bet most of the people here are so good at D&D that they can't recall the last time they played a level 1 base race, base class right out of PHB. When you've gotten that good at referencing supplemental material and playing complex characters, intermediate character-building techniques (like building a good Druid) seem rudimentary, and real rudimentary character building isn't even on the map anymore. When you get as good as most of these people are at building the perfect killing machine, optimizing a Druid is muscle memory by then.

I think I have to agree with sonofzeal, really. When a brand new player comes to me with questions about what kind of PC they should be, I always say "Whatever you want to be; it's fantasy, but for easier gameplay, stay away from the spell-casters. In 3.5, they can be a headache to a new player on a good day."

One of my friends in the campaign I'm in took my advice and became a Ranger (since Rangers still get weaned into spell-casting) and she loves it. The other took Druid and comes each week a little more frustrated.

[Tyndmyr]

I really don't have any more patience for nitpicking on one particular hypothetical encounter against one particular creature.

How implausible is it that a PC takes a full-attack from an even-CR opponent, while using a signature long-duration ability?

Well, the specific situation set up was impossible. So, that makes it very implausible indeed. If you're using level 5 hp, you have to assume level 5 abilities.


least [/I]as high as level 10, and still relevant as high as 15. Wildshape forms generally have absymal AC for their level - an unoptimized Monk can expect to have significantly more (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20000626e). Druids have no long-duration AC buffs in Core.

AC is nice. It is far from the only thing that is, though.


Let's talk level 8 Druids, since people seem to claim this is the break point. Your basic Core form at that point becomes Polar Bear, and our standard Druid has about 48 hp (rounding up). Here's a few random CR 8 enemies from MM1...

Your version of a standard druid is strange. I will assume a basic +2 con, since that is remarkably normal and unexceptional. That gets you 56 hp, rounding the odd half hp up.


9-Headed Hydra - can auto-hit. If even five of the heads attack the Druid, the Druid is almost certainly going down. The lvl 7 version of Ember has AC 23, and the lvl 7 version of Lidda has AC 22; Tordek has 25. Given these stats, if the Hydra sends four heads after the Druid and five after the Monk, the Druid has even odds of goes down but the Monk doesn't.

5 NA are gained for polar bear form. Assuming absolutely nothing else is used, that's a 15 AC(dex modifier balanced by size modifier for large). +13 to hit does mean the hydra will hit the bear fairly reliably. Note, however, that the hydra is hitting most people pretty frequently. Note additionally that Vadania has a ring of protection even at level 5, and rings can be worn in basically any form(see also, Draconomicon for some ludicrous examples).

Vadania: 19 AC, 56 hp. We have not spent any of her WBL after what she comes standard with at level 5, but she's probably better off than this shows. Note that in her official level 18 stats (http://web.archive.org/web/20051218151642/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/dnd/rwiconics), she has a number of protective items. Including a scroll of barkskin. Huh, obviously she uses that. Let's upgrade her armor to include barkskin, then. That'll be +3.

Average damage taken per non-crit hydra attack: 7.875
# of non-crit hydra attacks required to kill Vadania on average: 8

7th level Tordek, the tankiest of the lot, has 64 hp and AC 25. Boosting him to level 8 would give him a few more hp, but the stat bump can't really help him as it'll be odd on anything but dex, which is already capped by armor. Note that his WBL is spent almost entirely on protective items, so the comparison is already pretty unfair. Level 8 results in AC 25, 73 hp(rounding up all round, to be fair).

Average damage taken per non-crit hydra attack: 4.725
# of non-crit hydra attacks required to kill Tordek on average: 16

Wow. Despite being vastly more tank focused, Tordek can only take one more full attack routine. If they're going to trade hits, tordek isn't going to do well either over the long term. Especially considering he can't even outdamage the Hydra's fast healing.

Fortunately, the polar bear straight up crushes Tordek in damage...and is notably better at grappling too. It's MUCH better at the strategy of incapacitating or killing the hydra swiftly, which is the only strategy that works for either tank.


Dire Tiger - can auto-hit on every attack. Average damage on a pounce is enough for an auto-kill. The Dire Tiger's higher attack bonus means any character who gets pounced is in serious pain, but AC 22-25 gives decent odds that at least one or two attacks will miss. Polar!Druid is a lost cause though. One can merely pray it doesn't get the jump on the party - but that's standard for this encounter. At least the Druid might have above-average spot...?

It's an ambush encounter by an animal with Pounce and Rake. This would ruin a lot of people's day. Tordek only has AC 24 when flat footed, he's still getting hit on 4+ for the claws, so he's probably taking the rake. Anyone else in the party is exactly as screwed as the druid, if not more so. AC is not a major factor in this fight.

Oh look, the druid in polar bear form has scent. That's actually pretty relevant for avoiding ambushes.


Stone Giant - a pretty weak enemy against most PCs, it would have to hit with both club attacks and roll well on damage to drop anyone in a round. Its odds of landing both against the Polar!Druid s 85.5%; against the Rogue or Monk it's 37.5%. If the Druid enters the fight at even 80% health (reasonable if there's been other fights and nobody has free infinite healing, both good assumptions in most games), or if the Giant rolls even moderately above average (his max is more than sufficient leaving plenty of wiggle-room), that could be a THKO.

You are still undervaluing standard AC for the druid. And no, entering fights partially wounded is not a good assumption. Basically everyone understands that entering fights wounded is a great way to die.

2d8+14 isn't going to kill Vadania unless he gets a crit AND a hit. And still rolls decent on damage. The expected damage per attack is only 19.95 per attack, and she has 56 hp. So, she can most certainly take a full attack. If you deliberately unoptimize your druid, fail to heal yourself, and leap in to tank despite being down on hp...well, yeah you'll die. That's not the classes fault, though. ANY class will die if you do that.


Juvenile Green Dragon - chance of hitting with every attack on a full attack against Polar!Druid: 74%. Against Monk or Rogue: 18%. Lethality in such an event: pretty darn high.

Negative. The per-hit chance of hitting is 80% for the bite, and a mere 55% with the claws. They're secondary weapons, remember? Disregarding the tail slap/wings, even those three attacks have only a 24% chance to all hit Vadania. The polar druid can easily tank the dragon if it wants to trade full attacks.

The much greater danger is the Dragon being played as something other than a dumb brute. It flies, it has a breath weapon, it has sorc 1 casting. This can be a pretty bad day for everyone in the party if played effectively.


Athach - pretty lethal against everybody; three hits drops most characters, and it has five swings. Fortunately for everybody but the Druid, its attack bonus is pretty low for its level. Odds of landing at least three on the Druid: 98%. Odds against Monk or Rogue: 40%.

From the SRD: With its first few melee attacks, an athach tends to flail about indiscriminately.

So, assumption of a full attack focused on the druid means the party has already been failing pretty hard.

Also note that the iterative morningstar attack will probably miss regardless, and the bite poison, if it takes effect, will basically KO anyone BUT the druid. A total of 3d6 str damage over 1 minute from even a single bite is pretty much guaranteed to plaster a caster, and is still a pretty bad day for a fighter or rogue. Fortunately, the druid's got remove poison. Vadania even carries a scroll of it. Go druid!


Note that, even with 4th lvl spells, the Druid has not added a single new defensive buff to his arsenal that helps with any of these situations. Barkskin now lasts almost an hour and a half and provides a +3 bonus, but is {a} still not an all-day buff, and {b} covers less than half the gap against Monk/Rogue.

An hour and a half is pretty notable. If you need it for longer, burn multiple castings on it. As you said, it's not like you have other, better options staring you in the face.

Note also that Bear's Endurance or Cat's Grace would greatly improve Vad's tanking ability. While not listed in the calculations above, they're pretty solid options, and they're fairly common ones.


I also really can't see how a form with 5' reach and no pounce can avoid taking a full attack to the face occasionally. Probably not always, and it's not the sort of thing that can be calculated. But in an average/casual game, it's the sort of thing that happens as a matter of course.

It might happen. This, again, boils down to playing smart. If sufficiently large amounts of full attacks are taken due to player foolishness, you're probably gonna die eventually. But it's fairly rare that you actually HAVE to take them. Basically, when you get pounced is the only one. Otherwise, you elect to take them in return for doing other stuff.

Sometimes, withdraw actions are your friend.


Barding still remains an acceptable solution. Wild Dragonhide Fullplate is possible if the Druid has been scrupulous about saving their money, and Wildling clasps are also becoming affordable even if they aren't. As long as we all agree that such measures are necessary for the Druid to consider herself a melee warrior, I'm satisfied.

Some form of defensive option is pretty much required if you want to take hits. Alternative options exist, such as not taking everything to the face. Grappling is something bears are reasonably good at, and druids can make use of that.

[Taelas]

Thank you, Szar_Lakol. I was occasionally worried that people would think I was making a strawman argument.
Thank you for that backhanded insult.

Rather than completely dismissing my argument, why don't you try actually responding to it?

Optimization does not involve choosing specific forms; this is tactics. You can have the best optimization scheme in the world and lose due to poor tactics. A smart new player reads through his abilities and researches them. This is as simple as noticing that you can become animals and gain their abilities, and reading through the Monster Manual for applicable animals (5 or fewer HD, medium-size).

So, zero optimization is accurate. I am not choosing any feats, and my stats (aside from Constitution, which everyone needs, so it is equal optimization for everyone involved) don't matter, not even Wisdom. (Ignoring spellcasting, remember?)

For levels 5 through 7, I'll just stay as a deinonychus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#deinonychus) for general combat. Pounce, four attacks (talons, 2 claws, 1 bite), Str 19, Dex 15, and +5 NA. Gee, that's pretty nice. If I'm hurting, I'll swap to an eagle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagle.htm) and fly off.

Of course, that's assuming I don't know about the fleshraker, which is even better.

The deinonychus is even in the SRD, so there's no excuse for not knowing about it, even as a new player (assuming the DM gives even the smallest bit of help in suggesting that he look up creatures with the Animal type).

Compare it to an unoptimized Fighter 5 (elite array: 15 (16) Str, 13 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 9 Wis, 12 Cha, long sword +1, full plate +1, heavy steel shield, AC 21, +10 hit, 1d8+6 damage). Contrast 17 AC, +8/+3/+3/+3 talon/claw/claw/bite, 15 (16) Con (making their average HP mostly equal).

Gee, I'd say that's probably roughly the same level of effectiveness. Fighter's got two magic items and two feats (Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization) on the druid, too. Fighter's harder to hit, but the druid does more damage.

Without considering spells or animal companions.

[thompur]

"MISSMVICIOUS"["snip]
Very well said. Of the several dozen people I've played with over the decades, I can count on one hand the number who have been skilled optimizers. And that includes me. I'm probably a 4th, maybe 5th level optimizer. I base this on the assumption that playgrounders like Flickerdart, Tippy, and Tyndmyr are 15th or 16th.
My older sister, who introduced me to D & D back in the late '70's, played a druid in my game a few years ago(her first 3.x druid). Her AC was...an otter. She mainly used it for companionship, and occasionally for tracking. The other two characters in the party, played by my nephews, were an elf Paladin, and a Human Fighter focused on horsemanship and archery(he was going through a Mongolian phase at the time). Everybody had their moments in the sun.

[Gwendol]

For levels 5 through 7, I'll just stay as a deinonychus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#deinonychus) for general combat. Pounce, four attacks (talons, 2 claws, 1 bite), Str 19, Dex 15, and +5 NA. Gee, that's pretty nice. If I'm hurting, I'll swap to an eagle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagle.htm) and fly off.

Of course, that's assuming I don't know about the fleshraker, which is even better.

The deinonychus is even in the SRD, so there's no excuse for not knowing about it, even as a new player (assuming the DM gives even the smallest bit of help in suggesting that he look up creatures with the Animal type).

Compare it to an unoptimized Fighter 5 (elite array: 15 (16) Str, 13 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 9 Wis, 12 Cha, long sword +1, full plate +1, heavy steel shield, AC 21, +10 hit, 1d8+6 damage). Contrast 17 AC, +8/+3/+3/+3 talon/claw/claw/bite, 15 (16) Con (making their average HP mostly equal).

Gee, I'd say that's probably roughly the same level of effectiveness. Fighter's got two magic items and two feats (Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization) on the druid, too. Fighter's harder to hit, but the druid does more damage.

Without considering spells or animal companions.

Seriously, the 17 to 21 AC difference doesn't bother you?

[gkathellar]

Uh ... Druids can get pretty amazing AC in Wildshape, actually. Between Barkskin, Wild Armor, Wildling Clasps Dex-buffs and the pretty impressive Dex and Natural Armor a fair number of top-quality forms have they do very well. (VoP Druids and Warforged Druids, of course, can net totally ridiculous AC with very little effort, but those are specialized cases.)

And this is without even getting into the whole "Con is your second-best stat," "you have some of the game's better out-of-combat healing," "grapple is your friend," "pounce kills them before they can act," "you have some non-AC magical defenses," and "your Animal Companion is a second pool of hit points" arguments.

[Tyndmyr]

Seriously, the 17 to 21 AC difference doesn't bother you?

AC is overrated. It's nice, sure, but extra damage is also pretty fantastic. If the fight is shorter, you can get away with less defenses.

Note that my goal is not to show that the unoptimized melee druid is flat out superior to the fighter...he's not. But a druid isn't just about melee.

I mean, it's not like people recommend Natural Spell so that he can NOT cast spells.

[Gwendol]

Sure, but at the level of play quoted in this example the AC difference could be lethal if the druid is exposed to physical attacks. To pretend that a difference of 4 In AC at level 5 is meaningless is rather naive.

[Urpriest]

Seriously, the 17 to 21 AC difference doesn't bother you?

It shouldn't. A difference of 4 AC is the difference from firing into melee. It's meant to be a difference on the scale of a minor tactical advantage. Thus, if you're playing the game the way the designers thought it would be played, it should be irrelevant. And this thread seems to assume new players play the same way the designers did.

[Tyndmyr]

Sure, but at the level of play quoted in this example the AC difference could be lethal if the druid is exposed to physical attacks. To pretend that a difference of 4 In AC at level 5 is meaningless is rather naive.

It's not meaningless, but it's not really the end of the world. It's like a non-proficient weapon or firing into melee without precise shot. It's not a particularly optimal choice, but it's still one that works in a pinch and is sometimes a valid tactic.

If you're playing a game where a single number being a few point to low = death, you're probably not in a very low-op game. And then, the blame falls on the people who let the newbie play in a high-op game without bothering to help him.

[Gwendol]

Facing an orc barbarian (lvl 5, greataxe) it means the difference between PA 3/6 or PA 1/2 or 3-4 damage/round on average, more if the orc is pounce-charging. Nothing earth-shattering, but worthwhile of some planning at least. And certainly not to be ignored.

[Tyndmyr]

Facing an orc barbarian (lvl 5, greataxe) it means the difference between PA 3/6 or PA 1/2 or 3-4 damage/round on average, more if the orc is pounce-charging. Nothing earth-shattering, but worthwhile of some planning at least. And certainly not to be ignored.

If your enemies are pounce-charging(I'm confused how this would matter at level 5, but w/e) and power attacking...you're using basically uberchargers as enemies. This is not typical low-op play.

Your unoptimized sword and board user with feats like skill focus would be pretty screwed as well.

[Talya]

The word proof does more or less indicate a 100% guarantee (or at least something around 90%), but we do have 2 weak spots, melee combat with either scimitar or animal shape, that a new player might accidentialy stumple into.


Not really.

Think of this like a diving watch... "Water-proof up to 250 meters" or some such. Now, we don't have a concrete measure of noobness, but on a scale of 1 to 10 IUs*, druids are pretty newbie-proof up to 8 IUs.


* - Incompetence Units, 10 being the most incompetent, 1 being the least

[Anarion]

I feel like this thread has hashed out a lot of stuff about tactics and so forth, so I just want to add a couple things.

1. Don't underestimate the pure foolishness of new players. Part of the reason that fighters are newbie friendly is that all their protection is passive and their offense doesn't require preparation. In the campaign I'm currently playing in, the unbuffed normal shape druid (level 13) walked up a circular flight of stairs she couldn't see past and got smacked by 3 greater fire elementals that were standing in the middle of the room and could reach the top of the steps. It has nothing to do with being a druid, but if your class requires you to plan and play intelligently to survive, it's already lost newbie-friendliness.

2. A fair number of both players and DMs care about flavor stuff, even when it hurts certain characters. People are giving advice like studying every animal of a certain level that's in the SRD, but if the druid is from a small forest, why would they know about those animals? I'd bet money that my current DM would at least require a knowledge (nature) check before allowing the druid to summon or wildshape into a animal that she wasn't personally familiar with. This isn't RAW by any means, but the flavor of the class leads to these kinds of problems, where it wouldn't come up with a barbarian or a rogue.

[Gwendol]

It doesn't matter at lvl 5, my bad. This orc is a far cry from anything uber with 16 STR when not raging. In fact, I even forgot to factor in rage in my calc; with it gets a lot worse mostly due to rage allowing to PA for full against the wildshape druid.

[Dralnu]

My personal experiences with druids piloted by total noobs:

Game 1:
A level 1 campaign. Monk, Sorcerer, Rogue, Druid. For the first fights he ignored his spells and would basic attack people while his wolf companion shredded folks with its bite + free trip. The wolf outclassed everyone else basically.

The spells were there mostly to heal after battle. But after a while, he also discovered the spell Entangle and Summon Nature's Ally 1, and those 2 spells plus his companion let him zoom ahead of the pact.. until he died to a single critical hit from a scimitar (hey, it's level 1).

Game 2:
Level 1-6ish campaign. The first I ever played, we were all complete newbies. Bard, Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, Sorcerer, Druid. Again, wolf companion was still amazing, but fared a little worse because the druid owner would force him to take multiple AoO's regularly to reach the desired opponent and the poor wolf was knocked into the negatives regularly.

This druid player enjoys the support role so avoided smashing things, instead cast spells. Most of them were healing spells to save our butts, but entangle and summon nature's ally were common choices as well. Natural Spell feat was an obvious choice at level 6. I highly doubt even newbies would miss that, much like I doubt newbies would forget to take Power Attack for their 2hander fighter.

I'd say yes, druids are newbieproof. At the very worst you're a fighter that has a free extra fighter and you've got healing spells to patch up after combat. Compare that to a total newbie wizard, that casts magic missiles over and over.

EDIT: Well, they're newbieproof relative to other spellcasters. D&D is not a newbie-friendly system in general. Making a fighter and having to understand how to make the character, what all the saves do, what all the skills and feats do, how to attack, etc etc all takes more time than it should. Spellcasters are even worse, and druids are no exception. Where's the stats for my animal companion? How does he improve? So my wildshape is like polymorph is like alter shape? How do you resolve Entangle? Can I use Nature's Ally to summon an elephant over my enemy? Where does it say I can't? Heck, I bet the vast majority of people in this thread wouldn't know how to properly resolve the spell Obscuring Mist in a combat situation. I'm a 5 year vet and look at the amount of trouble that question caused me recently. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212647)

But I'm getting off-topic now.

[ShriekingDrake]

I've enjoyed reading this repartee.

I have just a couple of things to add--some of which have been said.

Druids have fantastic potential and with a little effort are easily (the) dominant characters up into the mid to late teens in levels.

While they are not fool-proof, even focusing on one of 1) spell casting, 2) wild shaping, 3) animal companion, or even 4) summoning can make a viable character from the beginning.

They are relatively tough out of the box and no less likely than most characters to perish quickly, and more likely than many to survive.

As others have said, playing balanced druids requires a lot of paper work and management of data and playing optimized druids requires a LOT of research and work.

One thing I notice that people tend to take for granted when playing druids is spell selection (this is true for wizards and clerics as well). People just assume that a druid will have selected the spells she needs. I think there is some value in thinking about what spells at any given level a druid is likely to prepare for the day. I, for instance, tend not to prepare a lot of offensive spells and focus on buffs, defense, and control and I leave the attacking to SNA which can be cast spontaneously.

Druids have a lot of options, and this is what makes them difficult to play if you want to exploit all they have to offer. (That said druids have lots of options, which can make them easy to play, because focusing on one path can be good enough to get by.) Knowing which spells to prepare or which creatures wild shape to is the hard part. In my experience, more players fail to select the appropriate spells than fail to wild shape into the right form or select prudent animal companions.

While Natural Spell is an outstanding boost to the druid, for it lets him use wild shape and cast, it is not necessary to be effective. But since its there, it is obviously the most effective feat, pound for pound, that the druid can select, for it let's him use two important arrows in his quiver simultaneously.

So, while druids can be played poorly right out of the box, there are several even non-optimized paths players can take to have an effective character without having to work too hard.

[Tyndmyr]

It doesn't matter at lvl 5, my bad. This orc is a far cry from anything uber with 16 STR when not raging. In fact, I even forgot to factor in rage in my calc; with it gets a lot worse mostly due to rage allowing to PA for full against the wildshape druid.

Look, if I start optimizing, I can one-hit kill basically any unoptimized class too. That proves fairly little. DMs that utilize charger one-hit kill things vs a noob that's not played before, and for whom you have not bothered to help make good decisions...

Yeah, at that point, you're mostly just screwing them over intentionally. Seriously, if that connects with the rogue...or a caster...or basically anyone short of a meaty barb, they're done.

Consider, your level 5 barb with a greataxe is putting out 1d12+17 on a standard hit. X3 crit. A crit is curtains for anyone in the party. Anyone at all unless they're playing to a fairly high op level.

Your standard d4 class with a +2 con mod has a mere 24 hp at level 5. Your barb has pretty solid odds of connecting, and drops them 50% of the time.

The rogue has 31 hp, and probably still doesn't have immense hp. He's not down unless crit, but he cannot take another hit without dying, so he's in full retreat.

The druid or cleric at least survives the charge with a few leftover hp unless he gets crit. Now, the druid has a fully healthy animal companion who can take a hit and cover for him while he retreats and heals himself.

The higher hit die classes can take that hit...but then they're trading attacks with a copy of themselves. A copy of themselves that got the initial charge, and thus, is well ahead of them in the damage war. Retreat is not a real option for them, as it means just taking another charge to someone.

Not only is the druid in the best position in this example, the DM kind of seems like he's trying to kill someone with this scenario. It's mildly jerkish.

[Coidzor]

That still require the new druid to figure out the use of entangle on his own.

We're supposed to retroactively hold their hands when there's already loads of advice out there about entangle when people discuss druid spellcasting? And the bit about Natural Spell is an explicit reinforcement of casting while in animal form, that's just supposed to be disregarded entirely?

At some point they have to take the responsibility to actually read. Really though, it sounds like the two of you have been getting the complete opposite druid threads from the ones I've witnessed and participated in.


Point is, when we're explicitly talking about casual tables, assuming every single encounter is effectively over in the first round (except for mopping up) is faulty.

Why would someone so casual that they actively refuse to learn their class come online to a D&D forum?

[TroubleBrewing]

Look, if I start optimizing, I can one-hit kill basically any unoptimized class too. That proves fairly little.

This is something that ALWAYS comes up in power level discussions, and it always bothers the crap out of me.

The idea that just because my build can't take 9,000 damage from an ubercharger means that it is weak is ridiculous. This idea assumes several things that make the argument utterly fallacious:

1) The Ubercharger somehow surprises said Druid. Again, as has been discussed, good luck. With high Wis, Listen and Spot, not to mention an animal companion that potentially has scent, Druids are hard to surprise. Especially if you're an Ubercharger and not a sneaky-stabby-assassin type.

2) The Ubercharger wins initiative. Again, unlikely. Druids have all of 1 feat required for their class, and two or three they could feasibly pick up. Of all the core casters, Druids are the most likely to have Imp. Initiative.

3) The Ubercharger actually connects with the Druid. With the variety of flight forms available, not to mention the fact magic items haven't been taken into account, the assumption that the Ubercharger's sword/axe/fist/beardfist/whatever is going to connect with something other than air seems, at best, like wishful thinking.

4) The Ubercharger actually connects with the Druid. Pop quiz: There are two Dire Bears in a clearing. One of them is your target. Should you fail to kill the correct one, the Druid will kill you. Should you succeed, the Animal Companion will likely give you a nice mauling for your trouble.

Long story short, just because something is vulnerable to one narrow tactic does not mean that it's a weak choice.


Why would someone so casual that they actively refuse to learn their class come online to a D&D forum?

Oh, come on. You know those people are here. We wouldn't have Monkday, "My Fighter can beat a Wizard" day, "What's so great about ToB" day, or any of the other facepalm-inducing days that we get here otherwise.

[Coidzor]

Oh, come on. You know those people are here. We wouldn't have Monkday, "My Fighter can beat a Wizard" day, "What's so great about ToB" day, or any of the other facepalm-inducing days that we get here otherwise.

Sorry, I mispoke. Why would someone who actively refuses to learn start a thread for the express purpose of learning?

[Gwendol]

My example isn't listing any of the charger examples above; just showing that the example of comparing a fighter to a druid/deinochus and ignoring the 17 to 21 AC difference is exactly the type of advice that will get an inexperienced player killed. If played intelligently the druid will not be the least threatened by the orc barb.

[TroubleBrewing]

Sorry, I mispoke. Why would someone who actively refuses to learn start a thread for the express purpose of learning?

Oh. I stand corrected, then!

Attempting to answer the question, regardless of how little sense it makes: They don't want to do the work of actually reading what the class does, and instead choose to rely on the playground to teach them how to use the class? It's a weak reason, to be sure...

[Anarion]

Sorry, I mispoke. Why would someone who actively refuses to learn start a thread for the express purpose of learning?

Are we talking about people that are here only? I thought the point was that some (most) of us are in mixed playgroups where some people are more experienced and more involved in D&D than others. And one of the easiest ways to scare away a new player is to tell them about the 5,000 different options that they have, that they should build their character in a specific way, and that everything they want to do is wrong.

The question, I think, is whether it's a good idea to tell the guy that just joined your playgroup to play a druid, and I think the answer is no. Have them make a druid as their 3rd or 4th character, after they've tried being a barbarian and learned the basics of the game.

[TroubleBrewing]

The question, I think, is whether it's a good idea to tell the guy that just joined your playgroup to play a druid, and I think the answer is no. Have them make a druid as their 3rd or 4th character, after they've tried being a barbarian and learned the basics of the game.

Well, if all they're interested in is Wildshape, I'd recommend letting them try out Wildshape Ranger.

[LordBlades]

The question, I think, is whether it's a good idea to tell the guy that just joined your playgroup to play a druid, and I think the answer is no. Have them make a druid as their 3rd or 4th character, after they've tried being a barbarian and learned the basics of the game.

Completely agree to this. Druids require learning a ton of things, and are a ton of paperwork (my most paperwork intensive druid had an almost 200 page long 'quick reference' list of SNA creatures with Augment Summoning and with/without Greenbound) so they're not exactly newbie-friendly.

But they are newbie proof in the sense that it's much harder to screw up a druid than let's say a monk. Well monk is probably a bad example since it requires a lot of op-fu in order not to screw up, but you get the point.

[TroubleBrewing]

If your choice is Monk, you've already screwed up.