[3.P] Customizing a balor

[Anarchy_Kanya]

How would you change those stats of the balor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/balor) that can be changed to make him a more dangerous opponent?
Stats that I consider changeable:
- (Sp) abilities, but reasonably; don't abuse that by trying to give him Planar Binding or Gate or something broken like that;
- skills; again, no abuse by maxing UMD or Diplomacy;
- feats;
Again, I want to optimize him reasonably, not abuse broken mechanics.

[Pilo]

Trade his dominate monster Spell-Like Abilities to Dominate monster, Mass.
Give him Calm emotions spell.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Where's Mass DM from? I doubt that it's equal level with DM.

[Pilo]

Well, it comes from nowhere, i thought it may exist, my bad.

[Tokuhara]

Half-Pyroclastic Dragon Balor?

http://www.mysteriousworld.com/Content/Images/Journal/2008/Spring/LOTR_Cipher/Balrog-Large.jpg

Have the fight on a stone bridge and make sure the Wizard quotes Gandalf...

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Well, it comes from nowhere, i thought it may exist, my bad.
Even if it did, it would obviously be more powerful and higher level, so not allowed. I don't have to point out that exchanging spell-likes for powerful spell-likes isn't allowed? The spells should be equal or lower level.


Half-Pyroclastic Dragon Balor?
No. I said what is allowed to be changed. Adding a template isn't.

[Runestar]

I don't play pathfinder, but I suppose 3e concepts could still apply.

One way is to improve his action economy. There is no use giving him all these SLAs when he can use only 1-2 each round.

For starters, give him the swift concentration feat (in complete scoundrel?) which lets you maintain concentration of implosion as a move action. This lets you use another SLA as a standard action, and spit out a quickened greater dispel or telekinesis. This does severely limit your mobility though.

Or you could give it flyby attack, letting it use a SLA in between moves. Given its high flight speed, this lets it stay out of range of most players.

[Tokuhara]

Here are my ideas for a truly difficult fight:

Considering the base balor, for its CR is a gigantic demonic punching bag who hits back. Not scary to a God-Wizard, a Shadow Rogue, a Master of the Nine, a Ruby Knight Windicator, or a CoDzilla.

What is needed here is a lot of Battlefield Control.

The base SLAs of Balor are good for facing a single foe, but for multiple, he needs a way to hold them at bay. I suggest a unique Supernatural ability (fully aware you want Feats, SLAs, or Skills, but follow the bouncing ball) that gives it a Swift Breath Weapon (a Breath Weapon that is usable as a Swift Action). Remember: you are the DM and can do what you think is both fun and challenging. Don't use common energies (fire, cold, electricity) because 99% of all optimized parties have workarounds for this. I suggest either Acid (very few parties expect Acid damage), Sonic (perhaps a powerful roar?), or even a more abstract damage such as Force or even Negative energy (beware of Tomb-Tainted Dread Necromancers). This ability should be modled off of Dragons, giving a short recharge time. This allows for action economy usage to hold a group of adventurers at bay while you use your nasty SLAs to separate the major party threats.

I also suggest the balor using its open feat slots for greater power, such as Mage Slayer to hold the casters at bay, Improved Trip to use it's whip to grapple melee-types who enter too close, along with standard AoE feats, and give it the ability to use martial maneuvers (perhaps a twisted version of Devoted Spirit or Iron Heart?). Also, flyby attack and its subsidiaries are excellent

Skill-wise, focus on skills that can be combined with feats. Just because the party is optimized doesn't mean the monsters cannot do the same, right? Intimidate+Imperious Command+Never Outnumbered can cause the more threatening PCs into quivering masses of Jell-O.

And always remember: the Balor should be scary. It's a 20+ foot tall demon who can kill 99% of all who face it. It should be a difficult endeavor, so feel free to give the Balor scary visuals and even unique gear to match its terrifying visuals. Perhaps a blade that has a unique enchantment that can steal one's very soul and a whip that deals more damage than normal. Perhaps the sword is made of pure hatred and the whip is a serrated chain that tears flesh from bone. Always remember: a Balor is a High-End encounter. It isn't a hobgoblin chump, it isn't a beast of legend, it is a massive Demon Lord with dominion over one of the Infinite Layers of the Abyss, and thus should be an ordeal to face, with great reward at the end.

Hope I was able to help

Toku

[Balor01]

Balor is a tough SOB, but moreover - smart one. Thats INT 24 and WIS 24, baby! That is the first thing to take into account. Since balors live very very long lives they have a bunch of knowledge on all sorts of combat and most on only vital type of combat - arcane.

So firstly, we can assume that NO BALOR EVER WILL GO ABOUT ALONE. He will be accompanied by mooks, bodyguards, enormous beasts who owe him allegiance and gazzilions of power-hungry demons who he has lordship over.

Secondly, balor knows that INIT IS EVERYTHING. You lose INIT, you are dead. Use Improve init. feat and ALL OTHER WAYS TO MAX THAT INIT BONUS. Secondly, as monster of his CR, balor gets 80.000 gp to spend on his equiptment. Those are Contingency spells, baby. Yup. Best wording may be "Whenever balor loses Init check to a target, teleport balor to location X". Enemies may trace, follow, but all the mooks are there for a reason. During his short absence balor summons another buddy (if really nesecary) and teleports back. Prior to this he may buff himslef with some Improved invisibility or alike, but here is the main thing:
Switch balors usesless 1/day—fire storm (DC 26), implosion (DC 27) for 1/day-Disjunction I need be, even summoned balor may hit the enemy with this.

This may ruin the day of the enemy while mooks tear him/them apart.

[nedz]

At the very least change the Firestorm - its just so predictable. Maybe this Balor comes from an Ice plane, or an Acid one, or one which is made of pure Chaos.
Lets see Firestorm is Cleric 8 Druid 7 or therabouts. Choose from Whirlwind, Destruction, Earthquake, Acid Fog, Heat Drain, Slime Wave, etc., ..., you get the idea.

Change their Flaming Body to a matching element and make them into a grappler.

Dump the sword and whip - there a nice idea, but its been done - let them use natural weapons and then give them snatch. Have them attack a PC, auto grapple if hit (for "flame" damage), and then (next attack) just toss them into a chaos/pain vortex.

Balor's should be intimidating. They should have at least Frightful Presence etc. Don't forget the size modifier on intimidate - this effect should be awesome.

They also have minions, actually regimental sized amounts of minions. Make these grapplers also, nothing like having prisoners to torture.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Monsters don't get cash on equipment, they only got what is stated in their statblocks. Obviously I'm not going to use their treasure to equip him, that's not why it is there for.
I can change the longsword, but the whip not, because the Balor has Whip Mastery, it would be a waste to not use it.

[nedz]

Try thinking outside of the Statblock.


Obviously I'm going to use their treasure to equip him, that's not why it is there for.
Why not ?
Thats exactly what its there for.
Think about it from the Balor's view - its his cash, he can spend it however he likes. If the PCs kill him: its still treasure either way.



I can change the longsword, but the whip not, because the Balor has Whip Mastery, it would be a waste to not use it.

Maybe this Balor doesn't have Whip Mastery ?
Give him something else instead.

[Emperor Tippy]

Quickshift (spell) from the Book of Exalted Deeds. It turns his Greater Teleport into a swift action for rounds/level.

That really makes him a jack rabbit on crack if the players aren't able to shut down teleportation.

Replace Dominate Monster with either Mind Rape (if you want to keep the same theme) or Disjunction (if you want him to actually be a bitch to fight).

[JaronK]

I'd say don't customize the stats at all. Instead, make good use of the high Int and command status of this creature to make the encounter a challenge. If he's in an area he likes to stay in, there should be traps and environmental advantages on his side. He can have other demons there to serve as ablative armor and make life difficult. He can even do things like using Extract Gift (Fiendish Codex) to boost the abilities of his minions while letting him see through their eyes, and thus scout the party while also making his minions stronger.

JaronK

[nedz]

Actually I think that you should first customise his layer of the Abyss. This will give you the flavour and direction to customise the Balor.
Well, maybe that should be the other way around? Maybe the Balor customises his layer himself.
Either way: this is an opportunity for synergy.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Why not ?
Thats exactly what its there for.
Think about it from the Balor's view - its his cash, he can spend it however he likes. If the PCs kill him: its still treasure either way.
Equipment won't be changed. What is changeable is stated in the OP.


Maybe this Balor doesn't have Whip Mastery ?
Give him something else instead.
Homebrew won't be used. What is changeable is stated in the OP.


I'd say don't customize the stats at all. Instead, make good use of the high Int and command status of this creature to make the encounter a challenge. If he's in an area he likes to stay in, there should be traps and environmental advantages on his side. He can have other demons there to serve as ablative armor and make life difficult. He can even do things like using Extract Gift (Fiendish Codex) to boost the abilities of his minions while letting him see through their eyes, and thus scout the party while also making his minions stronger.

JaronK
Sorry, but I want to customize the Balor. how he will fight and what tactics he will use is a different topic.


Actually I think that you should first customise his layer of the Abyss. This will give you the flavour and direction to customise the Balor.
Well, maybe that should be the other way around? Maybe the Balor customises his layer himself.
Either way: this is an opportunity for synergy.
Who said something about him ruling a layer?

[Tokuhara]

Balors are the rulers of a layer of the Abyss. Think of the abyss as a section of land with sections divvied out to Barbarian Cheiftains. Balors and the named Archdemons are those Cheiftains. It's in their description.

[MukkTB]

Herp Derp. I got all this nice money. No I don't want to use it to help me fight them guys trying to kill me. That'd be cheatin. It goes in the stash over there for when I'm dead.

[Balor01]

Yeah. I suggest instead of a balor you just put a 80.000 gp worth gem in his place.

[nedz]

Their description also states that the're alignment is Always Chaotic Evil
If they are chaotic, why would they all be the same ?

[AslanCross]

Swap out his (Sp)s for the Barbarian's Mighty Rage (or Whirling Frenzy, since he TWFs) and give him Martial maneuvers? Desert Wind, the evil side of Devoted Spirit, and White Raven for Command?

(Btw, I do agree that he can use the treasure he drops. I think it's extremely rewarding for players to pick up "that cool sword the boss was using.")

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Balors are the rulers of a layer of the Abyss. Think of the abyss as a section of land with sections divvied out to Barbarian Cheiftains. Balors and the named Archdemons are those Cheiftains. It's in their description.
As ones of the most powerful non-unique demons they can be Lords, yes. But they aren't them automatically. Most often they're just generals or bodyguards of other Demon Lords.


Swap out his (Sp)s for the Barbarian's Mighty Rage (or Whirling Frenzy, since he TWFs) and give him Martial maneuvers? Desert Wind, the evil side of Devoted Spirit, and White Raven for Command?
As I already said, I don't do homebrew.

[MukkTB]

On a more serious note not all the loot has to be directly combat applicable. He could be wearing Pantyhose of Seduction +9 a Ring of Remembering the Things that I Forgot to Remember, and use the rest of the cash to buy a big honking sword.

[Seerow]

As I already said, I don't do homebrew.

While I don't disagree with not wanting to give a Balor ToB maneuvers over his spell like abilities, I would hardly consider doing so using homebrew. And if you are going to consider it homebrew, what is the point of this topic, as even changing his spell likes around would be homebrew by that standard.

If you want to do it by RAW, give him some PC levels, gear appropriate to his new CR, and maybe rechoose feats.

[AslanCross]

Okay, the only thing I can really suggest is using a Spiked Chain tripper build or an Ubercharger build.

I still think he will likely die instantly (or quicker than you might expect) against a CR-appropriate party given with how Wizards can break the action economy at those levels. I've done it myself at Lv 18, with a blaster wizard. I killed a lich and his Gated Balor in the same turn.

Even without the wizard, it's still 4 actions versus 1.

The most I can suggest for changing (Sp)s is using the spell Death Dragon (spell compendium) which not only gives him +4 natural armor and +4 deflection bonus to armor AND an Inflict Critical Wounds touch attack at will, but gives him a really cool suit of dragon bone armor and a field of necro-energy as well.

Give him Celerity as an (Sp) so he can at least catch up with the action economy somewhat.

If you like neither Spiked Chain Trippers nor Uberchargers, give him Awesome Blow and replace all his other feats with flight-related ones. Make him fight from the air (which shouldn't be a problem for a level-appropriate party).

EDIT:

And if you are going to consider it homebrew, what is the point of this topic, as even changing his spell likes around would be homebrew by that standard.


I agree. Balors have never really been famous for anything other than being iconic-yet-weak-for-their-level boss monsters in 3.5. Changing (Sp)s really won't add much, as the biggest problem is action economy. 1 action versus 4. Adding things just adds turns to its lifespan, but that 290 HP goes away really quickly at that level.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

While I don't disagree with not wanting to give a Balor ToB maneuvers over his spell like abilities, I would hardly consider doing so using homebrew. And if you are going to consider it homebrew, what is the point of this topic, as even changing his spell likes around would be homebrew by that standard.
I'm doing customization. Changing a feat or (Sp) of a monster is alright. Replacing (Sp) with ACFs or maneuvers? Not.
If it makes you happy lets say that I'm okay with minor homebrew (which means feats, skills, (Sp) only can be changed).

[Runestar]

Herp Derp. I got all this nice money. No I don't want to use it to help me fight them guys trying to kill me. That'd be cheatin. It goes in the stash over there for when I'm dead.

Look, the OP has already stated his desire to not use any possible treasure. Why don't you just accept it already and let it go? :smallannoyed:

The existing balor likely isn't very strong for its cr, given how over in the wizards website, a lv16 party could defeat it (and this was a group including a healer, and a wizard who did nothing but snipe with his holy bow). :smallconfused:

Fiendish codex 2 does have a list of SLAs you can swap out for a fiend. Granted, it was meant for devils, but I think it won't break the game to have demons use it as well.

So you can consider replacing power word: stun with demand and dominate monster for mass hold monster.

[nedz]

The main problem with Balors is that they are very well known. This means they are often defeated by metagaming. The whole point of changing them around is to create a CR appropriate challange which will give your players more fun.

This isn't really homebrew: Demons are chaotic and that should mean that they are all different individually. Changing their powers, for ones of an equivalent strength, is really no more different than using casters with different spells than listed in the typical spell lists found in many statblocks. This holds for feats and skills also.

Homebrew would be to create a whole new type of demon.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

I don't want to get any more impolite then I already am, but really, this is irrelevant and I'm getting tired of repeating myself.
I'm asking for suggestions on changing FEATS, SPELL-LIKES and SKILLS. If I decide to make even more changes beyond those three, then I'll create a new thread or expand this one.

[Mystic Muse]

Alright. Well, going by what you are willing to change, I have a question to ask.

Is there any specific theme that we need to go off of? All you've mentioned (I may have missed something, forgive me if I did) is that it can't be significantly more powerful than the SLA it used to be, (No increasing spell level, nothing broken) no homebrew, and that those are the only things you're willing to change. Is there anything else you can tell us? What kind of place the encounter is taking in, or a specific theme or something?

[LansXero]

Id say given them quicken-spell like ability and similar should help, and doesnt change much of the monster (and stays within the parameters of the requested changes).

[Essence_of_War]

Sorry, but I want to customize the Balor. how he will fight and what tactics he will use is a different topic.

:smallconfused:

I'm confused. Aren't 'how he's going to fight' and 'combat tactics' very deeply related to his spell-likes, feats, and other abilities you're trying to customize?

To help clarify, are you restricted to pathfinder feats, or are you allowed any others from 3.5 sources?

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Is there any specific theme that we need to go off of? All you've mentioned (I may have missed something, forgive me if I did) is that it can't be significantly more powerful than the SLA it used to be, (No increasing spell level, nothing broken) no homebrew, and that those are the only things you're willing to change. Is there anything else you can tell us? What kind of place the encounter is taking in, or a specific theme or something?
There's no theme and I don't have any specific encounters in mind yet. I'm just looking for interesting changes that would make my Balors a little different from each other, in case I would want to feature more then one or two in my game.


I'm confused. Aren't 'how he's going to fight' and 'combat tactics' very deeply related to his spell-likes, feats, and other abilities you're trying to customize?
No. I adjust the tactics to his abilities.


To help clarify, are you restricted to pathfinder feats, or are you allowed any others from 3.5 sources?
3.P. So everything from PF or 3.5.

[Mystic Muse]

Alright. I'm just looking through the SRD here, there may be better spells in other sources.

Insanity I'd change to something that affects multiple targets. If the people who you expect to be facing don't have a way to fly currently prepared, reverse gravity can be nice.

Dominate monster I would change to Hold Monster Mass, or Wail of the Banshee.

Implosion, I'd replace with prismatic sphere. Just a personal preference for the spell there.

That's pretty much all I can think of.

[Calanon]

Quickshift (spell) from the Book of Exalted Deeds. It turns his Greater Teleport into a swift action for rounds/level.

That really makes him a jack rabbit on crack if the players aren't able to shut down teleportation.

Replace Dominate Monster with either Mind Rape (if you want to keep the same theme) or Disjunction (if you want him to actually be a bitch to fight).

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkn07962EK1qinix4o1_500.jpg

If you did that to a group of players they will remember it for the rest of their lives... all of them (If you believe in the whole wheel of reincarnation)

Add me to the list of people who think Tippy = win :smallamused:

OT: Death Throes destroys everything the Balor has so it doesn't matter what treasure he has in other words, give him Magical items its going to be destroyed no matter what... :smallfrown:

[DoctorGlock]

with just feats you should probably consider the following

Quicken SLA and you can have a RAW legal version of the jackrabit balor when he can quickport 3/day or more

Martial Study/Martial Stance- from pounce and thicket of blades to the infamous iron heart surge, you can exponentially increase his power

Going beyond feats we can use advancement

Go with non-associated class levels. Wiz 11 will give him a final CR of 25 and he can use some lesser BC and get fun epic feats- Permanent Emanation (Anti Magic Field) can be raised and lowered as a free action meaning he can counter a fair amount of what the wizard and cleric can drop.

Have him serve something worse. Pledging loyalty to an elder evil grants bonus feats. Dark Chaos them into more fun.

Frankly, the balor is not a particularly strong foe. If I were to throw a high level evil outsider at the party I'd use a fallen solar.

[Essence_of_War]

Amazingly, the Balor doesn't have any of the improved trip line of feats. He could make good BC use of CExp->Imp Trip->Knockdown and/or Power Attack->Imp Bull Rush-> Knockback.

You could also consider giving the Balor's whip the 'dancing' enhancement so that he could use his sword THF. Whip could trip people while the Balor savagely beats them with the sword and SLAs. If you go this route, you could also trim away the TWF tree and Cleave to make room for some of the feats I mentioned above.

Either of these could be combined with things like non-associated class levels DoctorGlock mentioned. I'm especially looking at the permanent emanation - AMF.

Other general advice to spice up the encounters, is to have different balora prefer 1) different environments, and 2) different attending demons.

A Balor attended by squadrons of Vrocks (maybe some of whom are intent on performing a dance of ruin!) is going to feel like a very different fight than one where the Balor is leading a team of elite Glabrezu. This also has the advantage of splititng up the party's action advantage, and bringing lots of extra potentially useful SLAs to the party.