(3.5) Whats the point of the Core sorcerer?

[Ninja_Grand]

I mean look at him, He can cast spells with no preper but has less to use.

I see him as Flavor and Familiar. But a DM aporveal and a feat and he is a spontanus wizard!

So Whats the point?

[zoobob9]

Its the Flavor, and more spells a day. But mostly the flavor.

Read Start of Darkness. It explains why Sorcerers are superior (according to Xykon).

Also, if you're new to the game, its a whole lot easier to play than a wizard.

[Flickerdart]

He gets more spells than the Wizard. Before Focused Specialist, metamagic reducers, awesome Wizard-only prestige classes, before people knew what the hell "balance" was, this was considered a pretty good deal. The Sorcerer is also more noob-friendly, since it doesn't need a lot of book-keeping (and bad spell choices can be eventually switched out).

[Malachei]

Is this thread to provoke a huge discussion or do you really mean the question?

[Telonius]

I think the original design idea went something like this:

Sorcerers are for people who want to use magic more often, at the expense of versatility. They're the virtuosos who get stuff intuitively but can't explain why they do what they do theoretically. They're also for playing a caster if you want to play a charismatic character but don't want to be a Bard.

Not a bad idea, and they actually pretty much do just that. It takes more work to break the universe in two with a Sorcerer than with a Wizard, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

[killem2]

They also are very good if you want specialized machine pew-pew-pew FIRE IN THE HOLE casters :P.

Otherwise.. yeah I still choose wizard.

[nedz]

I'm playing two Sorcerors at the moment, they work fine. I like the fact that I get to do lots of homework in designing the characters and choosing the spells, but I don't have to bother with running a spreadsheet up in the middle of a sesssion.
In one game I'm playing a Gnome Sorc-Illusionist, and another player is playing a Gnome Wizard-Illusionist; I more than hold my own. Basically he is BATMAN and I am GOD.:smallsmile:
The other Sorc I'm playing is a gish - and that works fine too. He doesn't need a wide variety of spells to do his stuff.

To be frank, I've seen many players play wizards over the years who always take the same few spells all the time anyway. Poor play perhaps, but they may as well play a Sorc.

[Psyren]

Wizards are the finely-tuned watch. Sorcerers are the rubber mallet.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you want to play an arcane caster, without having to shuffle through twelve pages of character sheet information for his spell list, EVERY IN GAME DAY, to determine how he tells the laws of physics to sit down and shut up... play a Sorcerer.

All of the phenomonal, cosmic POWER... itty bitty spells known list. Makes logistics MUCH easier for the *player*.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Wizards are the finely-tuned watch. Sorcerers are the rubber mallet.

Wizards are pens, sorcerers are swords.

Wizards wield spells like skilled warriors wield swords, and sorcerers are like berserkers with greataxes.

[Tyndmyr]

I mean look at him, He can cast spells with no preper but has less to use.

I see him as Flavor and Familiar. But a DM aporveal and a feat and he is a spontanus wizard!

So Whats the point?

He's the class you point at when you have a brand new player that wants to be a caster.

[Blisstake]

In Core, sorcerers are able to cast more spells per day, and don't have to restrict what spell schools they're able to choose from to get a higher amount per day. I also like to think that they are better with situational metamagic feats like Silent and Still spell.

It seems like the books produced after core have been steadily faovring the wizard, however.

[nedz]

...
It seems like the books produced after core have been steadily faovring the wizard, however.

To be fair SpC is pretty neutral - in intent at least.
And Sorcerors benefit more from PrCs provided the're full on arcane casters.

[Emperor Tippy]

Sorcerer has generally benefited more from non core sources. Lots of feats, PrC's, substitution levels have been made that focus on them. The problem is that them and wizards share pretty much the same spell list, and things like PrC's are just the icing on the cake; spells are where the power of both classes come from.

And the wizard can always know more spells. He also has more ways to really increase his available spell slots (spontaneous divination being the big one as it effectively gives you every spell slot that would have been spent on a divination).

[Malachei]

Since the Dragon books (Races of the Dragon, Dragon Magic, Draconomicon), Sorcerers have improved, getting a few Sorcerer-only spells etc. -- plus Rapid Metamagic from CM.

But there's really countless threads that have discussed this, plus handbooks and guides and even a current thread, right here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222630)


Wizards are pens, sorcerers are swords.

Wizards wield spells like skilled warriors wield swords, and sorcerers are like berserkers with greataxes.

Does that make wizards swordwielding pens, and sorcerers axewielding swords?

:smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

It's more like that Wizards are an army - with combined arms forces, secret operatives, scouts, tanks and artillery. Sorcerers are Rambo. The army can kill things as dead as Rambo can, but they have lots of resources that Rambo doesn't - and if it comes to that, they can negotiate for peace, too.

[The Witch-King]

He gets more spells than the Wizard. Before Focused Specialist, metamagic reducers, awesome Wizard-only prestige classes, before people knew what the hell "balance" was, this was considered a pretty good deal.

What do you mean by metamagic reducers and where can I find the rules on them? Thanks!

[Flickerdart]

What do you mean by metamagic reducers and where can I find the rules on them? Thanks!
There are a large number of feats and class features that reduce the cost of metamagic. They make metamagic good enough to use all the time, which shafts Sorcerers something fierce. They are scattered all over, but among the best-known are Incantatrix (prestige class, Player's Guide to Faerun), Arcane Thesis (feat, Player's Handbook 2) and Divine Metamagic (feat, Complete Divine).

[Chronos]

The disadvantage sorcerers have over wizards is that they're less flexible. But one of the advantages sorcerers have over wizards is that they're more flexible. They're just flexible on different scales.

For the simplest example of what I mean, let's compare a low-level wizard to a first-level sorcerer. Let's say that the the wizard has Grease, Color Spray, and Charm Person in his book, and prepares one of each. That's good flexibility: Some situations are good situations for each of those spells, and he can choose which one to use in each encounter.

But what if the party happens to have three encounters in a single day, where Color Spray would have been the best choice for each of them? The wizard ends up having to use suboptimal spells for two of them. By comparison, the sorcerer who knows those three spells can mix them up any way he chooses, on the fly.

Now, even a suboptimal arcane spell can still be pretty good. And at higher levels, when the wizard can learn more about what he's going to face beforehand, this effect is considerably mitigated. But it's still some advantage for the sorcerer.

Basically, if a wizard isn't prepared for any specific situation, then his spells prepared list for that day is going to look a lot like a sorcerer's spells known list, and the sorcerer has the advantage. It's only once the wizard can start preparing specifically that he gains the advantage.

[Flickerdart]

But what if the party happens to have three encounters in a single day, where Color Spray would have been the best choice for each of them? The wizard ends up having to use suboptimal spells for two of them. By comparison, the sorcerer who knows those three spells can mix them up any way he chooses, on the fly.
The problem is that the Sorcerer doesn't know three spells. He knows two, while the Wizard knows seven, at the start of the game - and by the time the Sorcerer knows three, the Wizard knows at least thirteen.

[Chronos]

Yes, the wizard knows a lot of spells, in the sense of having them in his book, but he can only have a few available at once. And at low level, you're not going to have the foresight to be able to pick out the perfect ones, so you'll just have to prepare the few that are most broadly useful, and hardly ever end up using all those others collecting dust in your book. About the only exceptions are the spells that you use exclusively outside of encounters, like Identify: The wizard does have an edge over the sorcerer, there.

[AmberVael]

The point of a sorcerer is to be a spellcaster, typically one who has innate talents rather than one who has studied and learned their magic. The point is to provide an alternative magical chassis that is not necessarily the book worm lorekeeper caster, and to serve as an additional option to those using the D&D 3.5 core book.

And honestly, if you look at it, it seems that it succeeded far better than it may have even been intended to, never mind that there are other more powerful classes.

[Godskook]

There are a large number of feats and class features that reduce the cost of metamagic. They make metamagic good enough to use all the time, which shafts Sorcerers something fierce. They are scattered all over, but among the best-known are Incantatrix (prestige class, Player's Guide to Faerun), Arcane Thesis (feat, Player's Handbook 2) and Divine Metamagic (feat, Complete Divine).

Metamagic and Reducers in splat 3.5 are fairly base class neutral. Sorcerer actually has a few more tricks up his sleeves in those departments, considering that Practical Metamagic was intended to be used by Sorcerers and not Wizards(doesn't really stop the wizards, but meh) and (Greater) Arcane Fusion is sorc-only.

To note, while Cindy was a wizard, the Mailman was a Sorcerer.

[Vowtz]

Yes, the wizard knows a lot of spells, in the sense of having them in his book, but he can only have a few available at once. And at low level, you're not going to have the foresight to be able to pick out the perfect ones, so you'll just have to prepare the few that are most broadly useful, and hardly ever end up using all those others collecting dust in your book. About the only exceptions are the spells that you use exclusively outside of encounters, like Identify: The wizard does have an edge over the sorcerer, there. Or he could decide his next encounter spells on the course of the day.

From Player's Handbook, page 178:

When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of
these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the
preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances
permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard
can fill these unused spell slots.


For the simplest example of what I mean, let's compare a low-level wizard to a first-level sorcerer. In the same example, if the party get into a golden secret door that can be opened with the code that's written in an ancient language, it's more likely that the wizard have Comprehend Languages at his disposal.

In the first level the real difference is versatility, but as levels go the fact that a wizad has access to more powerful spells and one level earlier gives him the edge over the poor sorcerer.

[chadmeister]

Or he could decide his next encounter spells on the course of the day.



Which is still only useful if he can predict what will be needed in the next encounter in time to take a brief break before the encounter starts. And leaving open slots further reduces his flexibility (and if need be, his maximum spell output) in early encounters.

There are many reasons why the wizard's requirement to prepare his spells might not be as big a disadvantage as it seems at first glance, but there is still an element of short-term flexibility in the sorcerer.

[Neopolis]

Basically? Wizards are Batman, Sorcerers are MacGyver.

Wizards can overcome anything if they have enough time to prepare, but when they're caught off-guard they might suffer.
Sorcerers are given some tools and they have to figure out how to apply them to the task at hand.

[killem2]

Basically? Wizards are Batman, Sorcerers are MacGyver.

Wizards can overcome anything if they have enough time to prepare, but when they're caught off-guard they might suffer.
Sorcerers are given some tools and they have to figure out how to apply them to the task at hand.

Macgyer has an answer for everything, you sure about that analogy? :smallbiggrin:

[nedz]

The disadvantage sorcerers have over wizards is that they're less flexible. But one of the advantages sorcerers have over wizards is that they're more flexible. They're just flexible on different scales.

Basically sorceror has tactical flexibility whilst wizard has strategic (actually operational) flexibility.


Macgyer has an answer for everything, you sure about that analogy? :smallbiggrin:
You just need to have flexible spells, which is quite hard but possible. There are several lines of spells which come to mind, but I'm sure there are others:
Silent Image (et al), Alter Self (et al), Shadow Conjuration (et al), Limited Wish (et al)

[Geigan]

Basically? Wizards are Batman, Sorcerers are MacGyver.

Wizards can overcome anything if they have enough time to prepare, but when they're caught off-guard they might suffer.
Sorcerers are given some tools and they have to figure out how to apply them to the task at hand.


Wizards are pens, sorcerers are swords.

Wizards wield spells like skilled warriors wield swords, and sorcerers are like berserkers with greataxes.


Wizards are the finely-tuned watch. Sorcerers are the rubber mallet.


It's more like that Wizards are an army - with combined arms forces, secret operatives, scouts, tanks and artillery. Sorcerers are Rambo. The army can kill things as dead as Rambo can, but they have lots of resources that Rambo doesn't - and if it comes to that, they can negotiate for peace, too.

Is it metaphor Friday around here? Cause now I feel inspired to make silly metaphors.

-A sorcerer is like a burger. A wizard is like the whole combo meal with fries and a drink. Sure the combo meal tastes better but it costs more, and you might not be hungry enough for the whole thing.

-Using the 2 is like the difference between launching missiles at your opponent and launching nukes at your opponent. They'll both typically cause lots of death either way, but the nuke is going to get a bigger backlash if used to its full destructive potential(from the DM).

-A wizard is like a smart phone whereas a sorcerer is a regular phone. Sure one has many more features, but the smart phone is more expensive and they both let you call people. And with some of those Sorcerer only things you can get your phone to be almost smart.

-A sorcerer's potential is a masters degree, and the Wizard potential is a PhD. One gets you paid more but the other will do just fine most of the time as well as being less difficult to achieve. Not to mention getting you less snide remarks about overachieving(powergamer).

Sorcerer vs Wizard XKCD style
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/electric_skateboard_double_comic.png
Wizards are C and Sorcerers are Python
Admittedly I know not nearly enough about coding to judge if that's right, but it sounded right.

Ok I'm done being silly. We now return to your regularly scheduled serious discussion.:smallbiggrin:

[dextercorvia]

The problem is that the Sorcerer doesn't know three spells. He knows two, while the Wizard knows seven, at the start of the game - and by the time the Sorcerer knows three, the Wizard knows at least thirteen.

Apprentice (Spellcaster) says hi. Every Sorcerer should take this feat. An extra spell known, the ability to swap a spell at every level, UMD as an in class skill (it always should have been), and an extra Knowledge skill in case you need it for a PrC. Of course, it really comes into its own when you combine it with Mother Cyst and a Bloodline feat, for a total of 20 spells of your choosing added to your spells known.

It still isn't a Wizard, but it does help the first level argument.

[Flickerdart]

Apprentice (Spellcaster) says hi. Every Sorcerer should take this feat. An extra spell known, the ability to swap a spell at every level, UMD as an in class skill (it always should have been), and an extra Knowledge skill in case you need it for a PrC. Of course, it really comes into its own when you combine it with Mother Cyst and a Bloodline feat, for a total of 20 spells of your choosing added to your spells known.

It still isn't a Wizard, but it does help the first level argument.
No it doesn't - the Wizard still knows over twice as many 1st level spells as the Sorcerer. There is never a moment when they know the same amount.

[Calanon]

Wizards are the finely-tuned watch. Sorcerers are the rubber mallet.

I feel that I've heard this before but can't place it...

I've said this before in a previous thread *looks through other threads* AH! here it is :smallredface:


I play D&D with 4 different groups of players and show up to every game and play a Wizard in all of them, the problem of preparing spells has never really come up for me since after a while your going to have favorite spells that you like more than other spells and will prepare them more often then others. Eventually you start playing as a Sorcerer with a spellbook, the only thing I've noticed that Wizards have over Sorcerers is the ability to best use Item creation feats to the best potential and even then that is limited However, I do still like Wizards over Sorcerers.

Please note this is my experience and opinion, in reality some Wizards pick different spells for the day EVERYDAY but meh, I'm different and lazier :smallbiggrin: Its to much of a headache to keep all that book work, Just have a fine list of spells that you like and go back to them every now and again (But its always smart to keep your main list with you when preparing, if one of your favorite spells doesn't do what you like then just pick a spell that you know that does what you want it to)

[dextercorvia]

No it doesn't - the Wizard still knows over twice as many 1st level spells as the Sorcerer. There is never a moment when they know the same amount.

True, but a 1st level sorcerer can know as many spells as a 1st level Wizard can prepare. Of course, a 1st level Wizard with the same feat investment can spontaneously cast any spell he knows up to Int mod times per day.

I'm not saying that Sorcerers are better.

[Leon]

What is the point of Core Anything?

a Core wizard does not have much more to offer than a Core Sorcerer.

[FearlessGnome]

Speaking of Mother Cyst... I keep hearing that it gives 11 spells, but I can only find 10 of them. There's one per level, and then there's the second level spell that actually makes the cyst. Where's the last spell hiding? (As in, what other level gives two spells, and which two are they?)

[Doc Roc]

Wizards are the finely-tuned watch. Sorcerers are the rubber mallet.

I love mallets.

[Telonius]

No it doesn't - the Wizard still knows over twice as many 1st level spells as the Sorcerer. There is never a moment when they know the same amount.

There might potentially be such a point, high in Epics, if Sorcerer keeps taking "Extra Spell" as his feat. At some point he'll exhaust all possible spells to know. Then again, at that point Wizard and Sorcerer will both be overdeity-scale powerful.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Whats the point of the Core sorcerer?
So the Wizard can feel even bigger in the pants.

[manamyst]

i just give mine spell bending also know as to "wing it"
they lose one spell known per spell level but gain the abiity to as a fullround action use two spell slots of the same level cast any spell in the sor/wiz spell list of that level if the spell would take a full round action or more you instead double its casting time
it makes them truly spontanious

[nedz]

i just give mine spell bending also know as to "wing it"
they lose one spell known per spell level but gain the abiity to as a fullround action use two spell slots of the same level cast any spell in the sor/wiz spell list of that level if the spell would take a full round action or more you instead double its casting time
it makes them truly spontanious
Interesting homebrew - but its not a core sorceror.
I think this makes them Tier 0

[Hiro Protagonest]

Interesting homebrew - but its not a core sorceror.
I think this makes them Tier 0

Longer casting time and double the spell slots? Not tier 0. Definitely not tier 0.

[Little Brother]

Guys? Since LoD, Wizards have been spontaneous. Complete Champion would also like a chat with you guys. And Contact Other Plane laughs at this whole "preparing" thing.

[Calanon]

Guys? Since LoD, Wizards have been spontaneous. Complete Champion would also like a chat with you guys. And Contact Other Plane laughs at this whole "preparing" thing.

I know your joking but can you tell me which page is says this? :smallamused:

[nedz]

Longer casting time and double the spell slots? Not tier 0. Definitely not tier 0.
Well they can cast any arcane spell in the system, without having to go and learn it, without having to plan and prepare the spell in advance. That does sound like a tier above wizard.

[Emperor Tippy]

Not if you have to burn two equal level slots to do it and it's a full round to cast (like summoning).

They will burn through spell slots fast that way. I might limit it to 1/encounter or 3/day but otherwise it's not that bad.

[Ravens_cry]

What is the point? To allow players to play a caster whos power comes from innate ability and talent rather than conviction in a deity or set of principles (cleric), a connection to the power of the natural world (druid), or from long and arduous study (wizard).
From a meta perspective, they are, at least in my experience, significantly easier to just pick up and play compared to a wizard.
These are my spells, there are many like them, but these ones are mine.

[Chronos]

Then again, though, they still know all of their favorite spells and can cast them normally-- You'd only have to use double slots for spells you didn't already know, so you probably only end up needing to pull that out a couple times a day (and of course, sorcs get more spells per day than wizards). I think that just might put an even-level sorcerer at more powerful than a wizard.

Of course, at odd levels, the wizard still has access to an entire level of spells that the sorcerer doesn't.

[DeAnno]

Aside from Arcane Fusion and Greater Rite of Passage and all the other little Sorcerer quirks you should be using if the target power level is "Wizard", a good point has been sort of half-brought up in this thread. Sorcerers are easy to play and hard to design. This makes them a much better class to give to a new player (as long as you either design it for them or watchdog them over the whole process).

Metamagic and reducers for it actually do favor the Sorcerer more, because Spontaneous casting is better suited to a Blaster playstyle (where often you have some utility options or BFC or mobility on your spell list but would normally have no idea how many of them need to be prepared) and interacts with Arcane Spellsurge more favorably.

To make good use of prepared casting you must be willing to make very aggressive use of Divinations. In cases where Divinations do not work very well, either because of lots of people with Nondetection running around (and a favorable DM intepretation of a muddy area in the rules) or because the DM is just sick of you Divining things and starts twisting answers, prepared casting is suddenly much less attractive. It sounds extremely meta, but you're much less likely to piss off your DM (and bore your fellow players) by simply being extremely effective in 'bad" situations than by using Divination to prevent bad situations from ever occurring in the first place.

Even discounting the DM thing, Divinations sort of leave you on a knife-edge with regards to effectiveness. If you ever relax your vigilance or somehow make a serious blunder, you will not have the proper spells prepared and you may lack the sheer power necessary to salvage the situation.

[Emperor Tippy]

That's pretty much a misconception actually.

You can build a very solid spell list at level 20 that will give you what you need against 95% of the enemies in the game without a problem.

The thing is that you have to actually think about your spells and use them creatively.

Disintegrate, for example, is a utility spell, a no-save battle field control spell, and a fort save or die spell.

Fabricate is a battle field control spell and a utility spell.

Resilient Sphere is a defensive spell, a battle field control spell, and a reflex save or be trapped spell.

Prismatic Sphere is a defensive spell, a utility spell, a battle field control spell, and an attack spell.

Gate is a defensive spell, a utility spell, an attack spell, an escape spell, and a calling spell.

Polymorph Any Object is a battle field control spell, a utility spell, a buff spell, a fort-save or loose, a no save just loose, and a defensive spell.

Temporal Stasis is a will save or loose, a utility spell, and a defensive spell.

I could go on, many spell (even some of surprisingly low level) can be down right deadly even at high levels with just a bit of creativity and imagination.

[nedz]

Then again, though, they still know all of their favorite spells and can cast them normally-- You'd only have to use double slots for spells you didn't already know, so you probably only end up needing to pull that out a couple times a day (and of course, sorcs get more spells per day than wizards). I think that just might put an even-level sorcerer at more powerful than a wizard.

Of course, at odd levels, the wizard still has access to an entire level of spells that the sorcerer doesn't.
I'm not sure this houserule is properly thought out, or at least not fully explained.
If they lose the first spell known per spell level then at even levels they are completely open and can cast 3/2 spells per day (without bonus spells) ?
At the next odd level they would know 1 spell of their highest level, which they could spam, and have the "wing-it" option open.
?????

[Little Brother]

I know your joking but can you tell me which page is says this? :smallamused:Actually, Exemplars of Evil, not Lords of Darkness. I always confuse those two books confused. Either way, p26, I believe.

Or p52 of Complete Champion. Not as big, but still nifty.

But, no, I am not joking.

[Emperor Tippy]

Actually, Exemplars of Evil, not Lords of Darkness. I always confuse those two books confused. Either way, p26, I believe.

Or p52 of Complete Champion. Not as big, but still nifty.

But, no, I am not joking.
Yep, Uncanny Forethought for your Int mod's worth of spontaneous casting per day and Spontaneous Divination for never having to prepare a divination spell again.

The only problem with UF is that you need to take Spell Mastery to qualify for it.

[manamyst]

backgroound the the only books most our campains use are PH, DMG, MM, expanded psionics handbook, and tome of battle
home rule all casters may use their casting stat for spellcraft
"winging it" has dose have other uses
a spellcraft check of (spell level*3+18) or three spell slots will bring it down to a standerd action
as a one spell slot full round action you may add any metamagic feat to a spell you know with a check of(12+total spell level*3+MMlevel)example silent magic missle will take a 2 level slot with a spellcraft DC of
(12+3*2+1*2)=20 +18 tobring to standerd action -18 if you have the metamagic feat used
failing the check -1 caster level take 1 non lethal
failing the check by more than 2 -1 caster level take 1 non lethal
failing the check by more than 4 -1 caster level take 1 non lethal
more then 6 spell fails
more then 10 it blows up in your face take 1d6 per spell level nonLethal damage
more then 20 take 2d6 per spell level Lethal damage
roling a one dose not auto fail
I forgot how long this was outside of group short hand

[Analytica]

And Contact Other Plane laughs at this whole "preparing" thing.

I want to understand how this technique is actually used in practice, but don't. How often would you cast it? How many times on each occasion? What questions would you ask? I can definitely see "if I go to the castle down the valley, will I encounter undead?" and the like, but how would I use the spell to be prepared for things like a rival suddenly attacking using an unexpected strategy, or for my allies falling into some strange peril?

[Emperor Tippy]

I want to understand how this technique is actually used in practice, but don't. How often would you cast it? How many times on each occasion? What questions would you ask? I can definitely see "if I go to the castle down the valley, will I encounter undead?" and the like, but how would I use the spell to be prepared for things like a rival suddenly attacking using an unexpected strategy, or for my allies falling into some strange peril?

At the end of the day you blow most of your excess spell slots on it with Spontaneous Divination.

Things like "Is anyone planning to assassinate me?"
"Will I run into any monsters with Immunity to Fire tomorrow?"
"Will I see any creature not native to the material plane tomorrow?"
"Will I enter into a conflict with any undead tomorrow?"
"Has anyone attempted to use divination magic against me today?"
"Does anyone who I consider to be my enemy and believe to be dead, still live?"

When you get Yes answers you refine your questions until you get the specifics. Four or so castings per day should cover the wrong answers (if something conflicts cast it a few more times).

[nedz]

backgroound the the only books most our campains use are PH, DMG, MM, expanded psionics handbook, and tome of battle
home rule all casters may use their casting stat for spellcraft
"winging it" has dose have other uses
a spellcraft check of (spell level*3+18) or three spell slots will bring it down to a standerd action
as a one spell slot full round action you may add any metamagic feat to a spell you know with a check of(12+total spell level*3+MMlevel)example silent magic missle will take a 2 level slot with a spellcraft DC of
(12+3*2+1*2)=20 +18 tobring to standerd action -18 if you have the metamagic feat used
failing the check -1 caster level take 1 non lethal
failing the check by more than 2 -1 caster level take 1 non lethal
failing the check by more than 4 -1 caster level take 1 non lethal
more then 6 spell fails
more then 10 it blows up in your face take 1d6 per spell level nonLethal damage
more then 20 take 2d6 per spell level Lethal damage
roling a one dose not auto fail
I forgot how long this was outside of group short hand

OK - but what happens when my Sorceror takes 4th level, do I get to know a 2nd level spell ?

[nedz]

At the end of the day you blow most of your excess spell slots on it with Spontaneous Divination.

Things like "Is anyone planning to assassinate me?"
"Will I run into any monsters with Immunity to Fire tomorrow?"
"Will I see any creature not native to the material plane tomorrow?"
"Will I enter into a conflict with any undead tomorrow?"
"Has anyone attempted to use divination magic against me today?"
"Does anyone who I consider to be my enemy and believe to be dead, still live?"

When you get Yes answers you refine your questions until you get the specifics. Four or so castings per day should cover the wrong answers (if something conflicts cast it a few more times).
Unless you run on a railroad; how is a DM meant to answer Questions
2-4 ? As a DM I would feel obliged to answer Unknown to all of these.

[Diefje]

This thread needs more metaphors.

Sorcerors are like cake, wizard are like pie. Pie is clearly superior, but some people just like cake.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Unless your game is entirely random where the DM always rolls on random encounter tables or looks through all the level- appropriate enemies and picks some at random; how is a DM meant to answer Questions
2-4 ? As a DM I would feel obliged to answer Unknown to all of these.

FTFY.

And for the record, the DM can roll on the tables in advance.

[Qwertystop]

FTFY.

And for the record, the DM can roll on the tables in advance.

Yeah, just roll the next day's encounters when the divination spell is cast.



Apprentice (Spellcaster) says hi. Every Sorcerer should take this feat. An extra spell known, the ability to swap a spell at every level, UMD as an in class skill (it always should have been), and an extra Knowledge skill in case you need it for a PrC.
What feat is this? All I find on D&D Toolshop is Precocious Apprentice.

[Dr.Epic]

Read Start of Darkness. It explains why Sorcerers are superior (according to Xykon).

Yeah, I call shenanigans on that fight. A real wizard should have prepared the right spells for the battle. The beauty of being a wizard is that you get every spell (minus any potential banned school spells, but it's still more than sorcerers). Assuming you know what you're going to face, you can plan the perfect set of spells to handle it. If you have time to plan, a wizard could easily beat a sorcerer, and Dorukan had plenty of time observing Xykon from his dungeon.

Plus, there are other variables to consider. Xykon had the advantage of being a lich. We don't both of their exact levels so we can't say who is higher level. Also, one of Dorukan's spells didn't work because the comic was in black and white.

[nedz]

FTFY.

And for the record, the DM can roll on the tables in advance.

Sorry thats not the point I was trying to make.
How can a DM know what the PCs are going to do tomorrow?

Lets just reduce this to one question, for the sake of arguement.
Wizard: "Will I run into any monsters with Immunity to Fire tomorrow?"
DM consults his notes, sees that he has no such encounters planned, and says "Nope".
Wizard then cast Plane Shift and goes to the Elemental Plane of Fire.

Now unless the DM builds an Transplaner Railway the Divination was wrong.

[dextercorvia]

Speaking of Mother Cyst... I keep hearing that it gives 11 spells, but I can only find 10 of them. There's one per level, and then there's the second level spell that actually makes the cyst. Where's the last spell hiding? (As in, what other level gives two spells, and which two are they?)

Mother Cyst doesn't. My Necrotic Apprentice trick does.

Apprentice Spellcaster gives an additional spell known at 1st level, and the ability to swap one spell every time you level up. Mother Cyst gives the 10 spells known you mentioned. You then proceed to swap your 10 mother cyst spells over the next several levels (save some of the low level ones to use your normal sorcerer swap on). You can add in a bloodline feat to make it a total of 20 additional spells known.

[Qwertystop]

Sorry thats not the point I was trying to make.
How can a DM know what the PCs are going to do tomorrow?

Lets just reduce this to one question, for the sake of arguement.
Wizard: "Will I run into any monsters with Immunity to Fire tomorrow?"
DM consults his notes, sees that he has no such encounters planned, and says "Nope".
Wizard then cast Plane Shift and goes to the Elemental Plane of Fire.

Now unless the DM builds an Transplaner Railway the Divination was wrong.
Simple way around this. Say that in your campaign, the future is not set. Within a reasonably expectable course of action, Divinations can predict the future. If someone goes out of his way to prove the divination wrong, it might work (excepting Epic-level ones, which might force coincidences to keep themselves true).

[Ravens_cry]

This thread needs more metaphors.

Sorcerors are like cake, wizard are like pie. Pie is clearly superior, but some people just like cake.
Interesting, but not only is that a simile, but it doesn't quite grasp the fundamental differences. between a spontaneous and a prepared caster. I think a better metaphor is spell casting is a pantry.
A sorcerer has large storage space, but only so many ingredients and can only order different ones rarely.
A wizard on the other hand has smaller storage space, but can potentially call elsewhere for ingredients with ease.

[Analytica]

At the end of the day you blow most of your excess spell slots on it with Spontaneous Divination.

Things like "Is anyone planning to assassinate me?"
"Will I run into any monsters with Immunity to Fire tomorrow?"
"Will I see any creature not native to the material plane tomorrow?"
"Will I enter into a conflict with any undead tomorrow?"
"Has anyone attempted to use divination magic against me today?"
"Does anyone who I consider to be my enemy and believe to be dead, still live?"

When you get Yes answers you refine your questions until you get the specifics. Four or so castings per day should cover the wrong answers (if something conflicts cast it a few more times).

Interesting, thank you. Somehow I thought it was a single question per casting. There is the problem of 10-20% incorrect answers, but overall you should be able to get at least a clear view.

In the games you play or DM, if answers concerning the future actually depend on the PC's actions (i.e. you will meet undead, but only if you go to the castle like you said, not if you stay at home), will the answer remain valid only if plans remain unchanged, or will some undead appear by chance to make sure true answers will be true answers no matter what?

[Flickerdart]

Wizard then cast Plane Shift and goes to the Elemental Plane of Fire.

The Plane Shift drops the Wizard into the flying fortress of Drip Drop, feared Water Orc warlord who has brought his army of Water Elementals to the Elemental Plane of Fire to kill some Fire creatures. The fortress is warded against teleporting out. It takes him an entire day to break out, because it is so vast.

Or, the planes do not have a single time frame. What was "today" on the Material plane is not the same as what is "today" on the Elemental Plane of Fire, which might not even have the concept of days.

[Leon]

I love mallets.

Mallets can take a beating, a finely tuned watch cant.

[Taelas]

What feat is this? All I find on D&D Toolshop is Precocious Apprentice.

DMGII; it's called simply "Apprentice". It's part of a somewhat complex system of mentors and apprentices; you generally get some bonuses to skills, etc. for training with your mentor one day of the week. You can lose the feat, however. For example, a Fighter apprenticed to a soldier gets bonuses to Intimidate and on Fortitude saves.

For some reason, they decided to give spellcasters quite a bit more than anyone else who takes it, but who is surprised by that?

[Flickerdart]

Mallets can take a beating, a finely tuned watch cant.
Clearly what you need is a time-mallet, which is a mallet with a built-in watch.

[Little Brother]

Yep, Uncanny Forethought for your Int mod's worth of spontaneous casting per day and Spontaneous Divination for never having to prepare a divination spell again.

The only problem with UF is that you need to take Spell Mastery to qualify for it.But UF is SO worth the waste of Spell Mastery.

Unless you run on a railroad; how is a DM meant to answer Questions
2-4 ? As a DM I would feel obliged to answer Unknown to all of these.Tough, RAW doesn't support it. DM fiat has no place when talking about this kind of thing.

And the whole pie v. cake thing: Pies(Wizards) are better, but cakes(Sorcerers) are easier.

[Flickerdart]

But UF is SO worth the waste of Spell Mastery.
Tough, RAW doesn't support it. DM fiat has no place when talking about this kind of thing.

And the whole pie v. cake thing: Pies(Wizards) are better, but cakes(Sorcerers) are easier.
If you think cakes are easy and not as good as pies, you've never tried to make some of the more advanced cakes.

[Blisstake]

If you think cakes are easy and not as good as pies, you've never tried to make some of the more advanced cakes.

It was a generalization...

[Flickerdart]

My point is that cakes have a much wider optimization range than pies do, so it makes more sense to cast the Wizard and Sorcerer the opposite way.

[flumphy]

My point is that cakes have a much wider optimization range than pies do, so it makes more sense to cast the Wizard and Sorcerer the opposite way.

Well, technically, there's no reason you can't stick a bunch of fondant on a pie. Not that you would. (And since I've begun to lose track, I mean that in a completely non-metaphorical sense.)

In any case, "better" and even "easier" are subjective.

[Rogue Shadows]

"Is anyone planning to assassinate me?"
"Will I run into any monsters with Immunity to Fire tomorrow?"
"Will I see any creature not native to the material plane tomorrow?"
"Will I enter into a conflict with any undead tomorrow?"
"Has anyone attempted to use divination magic against me today?"
"Does anyone who I consider to be my enemy and believe to be dead, still live?"

Oh, God, as a DM I would love to get questions like that...

"Is anyone planning to assassinate me?"
No. (The BBEG they're running the risk of running into isn't yet consciously aware of their existence).

"Will I run into any monsters with Immunity to Fire tomorrow?"
No (Fire Resistance 30, on the other hand...)

"Will I see any creature not native to the material plane tomorrow?"
No ("Well, yeah, I'm an Outsider...but I was born just down the street.")

"Will I enter into a conflict with any undead tomorrow?"
Yes (The local bar is run by a Lawful Neutral wraith and he's sick of the PC's not paying their tab, so he's taking them to court. That's what you get for adventuring on Sigil...)

"Has anyone attempted to use divination magic against me today?"
No (The party's fighter, on the other hand...)

"Does anyone who I consider to be my enemy and believe to be dead, still live?"
No. (And really, this one is your fault for choosing a wording that pretty much specifically excludes any kind of Undead, Deathless, or Construct).

Gotta love that "the beings contacted hate you" clause of contact other plane...

[Little Brother]

If you think cakes are easy and not as good as pies, you've never tried to make some of the more advanced cakes.Pie crusts. The foundation of a pie. They are PAIN! Just like the basis or preping in general is irritating. Also, what you do with pie is add stuff on to the complete dessert, such as adding optimization to the already stupid good Wizard.

And it is harder to "Optimize" cake than pie. Agreed. Sorcerers are hard to make better than they are. They are just "eh." Easy to throw out, but hard to make better than a good pie.

Pie=Wizard, Cake=Sorcerer.

[candycorn]

These are a bit...iffy.

Oh, God, as a DM I would love to get questions like that...

"Is anyone planning to assassinate me?"
No. (The BBEG they're running the risk of running into isn't yet consciously aware of their existence).Good answer. The Wizard is concerned with threats to himself, and no plots against him is correctly answered. Also, a plot to duel or face in open conflict would not qualify as assassination.


"Will I run into any monsters with Immunity to Fire tomorrow?"
No (Fire Resistance 30, on the other hand...)Also, good answer. Immunity to Fire is a specific term, and other related fire resistances would not be included.


"Will I see any creature not native to the material plane tomorrow?"
No ("Well, yeah, I'm an Outsider...but I was born just down the street.")Only a good answer if the Outsider has the Native subtype. If it is considered "Extraplanar", then this is not a good answer.


"Will I enter into a conflict with any undead tomorrow?"
Yes (The local bar is run by a Lawful Neutral wraith and he's sick of the PC's not paying their tab, so he's taking them to court. That's what you get for adventuring on Sigil...)This is slightly iffy, but, with the day filled with court antics, the 6 preparations of Control Undead are somewhat less vital.


"Has anyone attempted to use divination magic against me today?"
No (The party's fighter, on the other hand...)Bad answer, unless that divination magic didn't detect anything about the wizard.


"Does anyone who I consider to be my enemy and believe to be dead, still live?"
No. (And really, this one is your fault for choosing a wording that pretty much specifically excludes any kind of Undead, Deathless, or Construct).Well, that's only applicable if the wizard knows of Undead, Deathless, or Constructs that are his enemy.


Gotta love that "the beings contacted hate you" clause of contact other plane...Yes, they resent the contact. But the objective of D&D is to have fun. Requiring players to phrase their questions in 3 page, single space format? Not so much.

[Emperor Tippy]

Those are 4 questions out of over a hundred and were chosen mostly randomly.

"Am I going to be attacked tomorrow?"
If yes, "More than 3 times?"
If no, "More than once?"
etc.

"Will I enter an area tomorrow that I have not created in which teleportation is blocked?"
"Will anyone I consider an ally be attacked tomorrow?"
"Will anyone attempt to use Wish to transport me tomorrow?"

We are talking 20+ questions per CoP, with possible a dozen or so spell slots used on CoP.

And that's without Shapechange. There is a creature with at will CoP as an SU.

I can sit there on my fast time demiplane for hours refining my divination's until they give me all the detail I want.

[Rogue Shadows]

Only a good answer if the Outsider has the Native subtype. If it is considered "Extraplanar", then this is not a good answer.

Sure it is. The question was "will I see any creature not native to the material plane tomorrow?"

If you want to know about types - without getting metagamey - then the question should have been along the lines of, "will I see any creature not typically considered by residents of the material plane, to be a typical resident of the material plane?"

Though if my player had asked, "Will I see any Outsiders, Elementals, or any creature with the (Extraplanar) subtype tomorrow?" then I would have given the same answer as the question above, and assumed that the player's character had asked the question in a less metagamey way.

The point being, the question is worded...poorly.


This is slightly iffy, but, with the day filled with court antics, the 6 preparations of Control Undead are somewhat less vital.

Ah, but the day might not be filled with court antics. "Will I enter into conflict...?" This is fulfilled simply by someone serving the PC a court order, which begins said conflict.


Bad answer, unless that divination magic didn't detect anything about the wizard.

Nope. Once again, the question was worded poorly. "Has anyone attempted to use Divination magic against me today" explicitly means that the caster is the target.

The correct question the wizard wanted to ask was "Has an area immediately surrounding my person or anything within that area been the subject of Divination spells today?"

"Yes," I the DM answer gleefully, amused that the player has somehow forgotten that he himself cast identify on his shiny new robes.


Well, that's only applicable if the wizard knows of Undead, Deathless, or Constructs that are his enemy.

Or, if a previous enemy has now become Undead, Deathless, or a Construct since their last (presumably fatal) meeting.

The proper wording would have been "Is any individual whom I consider to be my enemy still alive, or otherwise cognative?"


Yes, they resent the contact. But the objective of D&D is to have fun. Requiring players to phrase their questions in 3 page, single space format? Not so much.

The players subjecting the DM to CoP interrogations? Equally unfun. If the player wants to play twenty questions every time they prepare a spell, then they must be specific. But not too specific lest they fall victim to an Oracle situation.

The DM is a player too, remember?

[candycorn]

The players subjecting the DM to CoP interrogations? Equally unfun. If the player wants to play twenty questions every time they prepare a spell, then they must be specific. But not too specific lest they fall victim to an Oracle situation.Then the DM has tools at his disposal. After a few, send emissaries of the deity, to remind players that a deity's resentment has tangible consequences.

Or tell the players off board that such things are frowned on.

Allowing it, but using passive-aggressive behavior to punish players for using it, when they haven't used the wording that you personally approve of?

Hall mark of a Bad DM.

Being upfront with players over the fact that CoP is detracting from the game is a good thing. Ambushing players, then whipping out transcripts of their questions, and cackling with glee as you whip out the Big book of Semantics? Not a good thing.


The DM is a player too, remember?Yes, and that means that he should work WITH the other players to create a fun environment. Not against them.

[Doc Roc]

Mother Cyst doesn't. My Necrotic Apprentice trick does.

Apprentice Spellcaster gives an additional spell known at 1st level, and the ability to swap one spell every time you level up. Mother Cyst gives the 10 spells known you mentioned. You then proceed to swap your 10 mother cyst spells over the next several levels (save some of the low level ones to use your normal sorcerer swap on). You can add in a bloodline feat to make it a total of 20 additional spells known.

This is brilliant.



And that's without Shapechange. There is a creature with at will CoP as an SU.

Elemental Weirds. Ruining your tomorrow, yesterday!

[FearlessGnome]

This is brilliant.Very, very true.

Personally, I'd try to get that ICKY undead THING out of me as soon as possible, though. Nothing says you don't get the spells just because you can't cast them.

[Doc Roc]

Very, very true.

Personally, I'd try to get that ICKY undead THING out of me as soon as possible, though. Nothing says you don't get the spells just because you can't cast them.

Actually, I'm extremely fond of the necrotic spells. If you're playing a tainted scholar, no one is ever going to make those saves anyway...........

Absolutely nightmarish villain, that was.

What actually happens if you psychic ref the feat away?

[candycorn]

Actually, I'm extremely fond of the necrotic spells. If you're playing a tainted scholar, no one is ever going to make those saves anyway...........

Absolutely nightmarish villain, that was.

What actually happens if you psychic ref the feat away?

Well, you lose the benefits of the feat. Since the feat granted you spells known, you'd lose them...

Unless, of course, you didn't have those spells known anymore. If you didn't, you'd have nothing to lose.

[FearlessGnome]

Actually, I'm extremely fond of the necrotic spells. If you're playing a tainted scholar, no one is ever going to make those saves anyway...........

Absolutely nightmarish villain, that was.

What actually happens if you psychic ref the feat away?

For an evil character, aye, swap a few nectrotic spells when you get better ones, but keep most of them. For a non-evil character receiving horrible powers from that one infernal bargain he made when he was young, swap them all right out and feel terrible about the THING that "lives" inside you.

If you reform the feat away, I think your average DM would give you a Look and tell you that yes, you DO lose the spells. You may keep the cyst, though. It won't do anything for you, but a lump of flesh doesn't just go away.

[Taelas]

Those are 4 questions out of over a hundred and were chosen mostly randomly.

"Am I going to be attacked tomorrow?"
If yes, "More than 3 times?"
If no, "More than once?"
etc.

"Will I enter an area tomorrow that I have not created in which teleportation is blocked?"
"Will anyone I consider an ally be attacked tomorrow?"
"Will anyone attempt to use Wish to transport me tomorrow?"

We are talking 20+ questions per CoP, with possible a dozen or so spell slots used on CoP.

And that's without Shapechange. There is a creature with at will CoP as an SU.

I can sit there on my fast time demiplane for hours refining my divination's until they give me all the detail I want.

This is why I have a very strong impulse to outright ban any and all divination spells that concern the future. Playing this way bogs everything down and it slows the game to a crawl.

I cannot know in advance what the wizard is going to do in response to actions that will involve him. I can't know if he'll decide to plane shift to the elemental plane of fire if I tell him "No" on his "Will I meet any creatures that are immune to fire tomorrow" question (thinking he was going to help thwart the plot to assassinate the king). I could press him for details, yes, but quite honestly, I don't want to get into a long discussion regarding his miles-long list of questions; I just want to move on with the damn game. What are the rest of the players going to do while the wizard satisfies his paranoia, play Scrabble?

Occasionally, if the questions come at the end of a session, the back-and-forth can be done outside the formal game sessions, but then I have other things I'd rather do again, such as preparing for next session, read a book, or any other number of things that are more entertaining. It's fine if it's just some of the time, but every damn day? No.

Which is annoying, because the spell is fine as written, but "clever" players, like Tippy here, will come up with a dozen or two different ways of circumventing the limits built into it in order to brute force an answer to everything. Contact other plane has a use outside of paranoid wizards seeking to cover their ass.

[Cerlis]

Design-wise. they wanted you to have two forms of magic profession. Well covered but limited. Of many spells but not a variety.

They COULD have had both forms of casting in the same class and you just choose which way you go (simular to 4.0) but that would be to confusing with people starting the game and already having to go through a big list of spells.

it was better for them to just make two classes.

[Rogue Shadows]

it was better for them to just make two classes.

They also should not have had identical spell lists. One of these days I'm going to take an axe to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list and split the thing wide open, and the pull in some spells from Cleric, Druid, and Bard for the difference.

...either that or use the revised sorcerer spell list Monte Cook cooked up.


Allowing it, but using passive-aggressive behavior to punish players for using it, when they haven't used the wording that you personally approve of?

Hall mark of a Bad DM.

Never had complaints yet...


Being upfront with players over the fact that CoP is detracting from the game is a good thing. Ambushing players, then whipping out transcripts of their questions, and cackling with glee as you whip out the Big book of Semantics? Not a good thing.

I hate to bring this up, but CoP specifically states that the beings a) resent the contact, b) might not know the correct answer, and c) might lie if the dice say so and/or if the DM feels like it (and it actually, IIRC, specifically proscribes DM fiat as a reasonable choice on the DM's part here - but, since no doubt you'd think that this is the DM lording over the players, let's, for the remainder of the discussion, assume that the DM is doing nothing more than rolling the dice and choosing answers based on the dice results).

Now for the sample questions, I never once lied, nor provided an incorrect answer, so already I'm exceeding the expectations provided by the spell.

But it says, right in the spell description, that the contactee resents the contacter. So you rolls your dice, you takes your chances. I don't have to warn my players about anything because the book has already done that for me and anyone who is using CoP in such a way should know this, just as someone who casts fireball should be aware of the radius of the spell and accept it if their allies fall within that radius when they choose their target area; why is the player's fault if they forget the latter but the DM's if they forget the former?

Or they should cast fireball in such a way so as to not hit their allies - just as they should word their CoP questions in such a way so as to prevent the Contactee from being able to monkey paw their way past the Contacter.

You want the answers to be in the spirit of the question as well as the letter? Use wish or miracle or some such, which I would reasonably assume can result in such answers by essentially casting a level 9 version of CoP, since unlike CoP you're actually putting something into the spell and by the time you can cast them you're properly speaking much higher on the contactee's radar and so more worth their time and effort.

CoP, on the other hand, is roughly the equivalent of a five-year-old pestering a grownup (whom they don't even know!) for an answer to a question that the grownup probably finds stupid, while the grownup is trying to do something more important.


Being upfront with players over the fact that CoP is detracting from the game is a good thing. Ambushing players, then whipping out transcripts of their questions, and cackling with glee as you whip out the Big book of Semantics? Not a good thing.

What ambush?

The players are forewarned that the being they contact resents the contact, might not know the answer, and could lie anyway. Furthermore rolling the percentile dice to see the truthfulness of the answer is well within what could reasonably necessitate a hidden die roll according to the DM, so the players have no real way of knowing which of these is the case, anyway, and so can't trust CoP regardless of whether or not their question was answered to the spirit of the question as well as the letter.

There is no ambush. The player of the wizard trying to hack reality is fully aware of what they're doing and what might happen. If he seriously resents the DM for doing exactly what the spell warns him the DM is going to do, then he's no different than a wizard's player who keeps telling the fellow PCs to man up just because his cast fireballs keep including them in the radius.

[Analytica]

Tough, RAW doesn't support it. DM fiat has no place when talking about this kind of thing.

In practice, how do you/your DM handle this in your games? If a Contact Other Plane prediction would be invalidated by the actions of the PCs, will strange coincidences by necessity occur so as to make the prediction come true?

EDIT: I guess this goes for all of you who mention this as a tool for choosing spells to prepare based on what will happen in the future. Does this occur in the games you actually play, and if so, how do you handle the fact that the DM cannot themselves predict the future? I can see several strategies that might help, but am curious as to how other people handle it outside of theoretical games.

[nedz]

I hate to bring this up, but CoP specifically states that the beings a) resent the contact, b) might not know the correct answer, and c) might lie if the dice say so and/or if the DM feels like it (and it actually, IIRC, specifically proscribes DM fiat as a reasonable choice on the DM's part here - but, since no doubt you'd think that this is the DM lording over the players, let's, for the remainder of the discussion, assume that the DM is doing nothing more than rolling the dice and choosing answers based on the dice results).


+1 to all of this, especially b) and questions relating to the future

[Rogue Shadows]

In practice, how do you/your DM handle this in your games? If a Contact Other Plane prediction would be invalidated by the actions of the PCs, will strange coincidences by necessity occur so as to make the prediction come true?

Me? I'd take a page from Mage: the Ascension and have the players fight a Paradox demon - the physical manifestation of the universe gone wrong.

Or I'd take a page from Doctor Who and have them and the surrounding area stuck outside of time and endlessly looping until they fix the glitch in the universe, all the while having to deal with Paradox demons trying to eat the unstuck area so as to destroy the paradox; and if the players fail then their characters are removed from time itself and cannot be brought back by any means short of the direct intervention of a deity with Time in its portfolio, most of whom would now hate the characters for summoning up Paradox demons.

Either way Paradox demons would be involved at some point. Appropriately CR'd and EL'd Paradox demons (I'd probably just use Slaadi stats but assume they're True Neutral and so don't have the (Chaotic) subtype), but Paradox demons nonetheless.

And then after fixing the problem one way or another, the Doctor (rolling 1d12 to determine which incarnation), Teferi Planeswalker, the bloke from The Time Machine, The Time Traveler's Wife, Benjamin Franklin, and Rufus would all show up and say "don't do that again," then leave.

Unless all the characters were deleted from time, in which case I guess the campaign's over.

I take time paradoxes very seriously in universes where I decide they're possible. Usually I decide they're not, though.

That is, if you go back and time and shoot your grandfather when he was 8, than your grandfather dies (becuase he was shot), but you cease to exist (because time hates you), but there's no paradox (because time is made of sturdier stuff) and your dad is fine (because time doesn't hate him, it just hates you).

[nedz]

Maybe the contacted outsider should send some minions as a slap on the wrist for hassling him in the first place and then making him look foolish?
Or perhaps the outsider should recipricate by using contact other plane to annoy the Wizard with stupid questions during an inconvenient moment?:smallbiggrin:

[Doc Roc]

What.

You are so weird. Look, if it's unknowable, just say it's unknowable. If you want players to use divination a certain way because you hate them knowing things, then either houserule it explicitly or play a game with weaker divination effects.


Why the heck would you make them fight a demon because they asked a question you didn't like that you then answered out of spite?!

[Flickerdart]

Why the heck would you make them fight a demon because they asked a question you didn't like that you then answered out of spite?!
Free XP? Encounters have to come from somewhere, and "bugged a powerful being once too often, so he sent some spare minions to try and shut you up, because if he resents answering a simple question then he's far too lazy to do anything about it himself" is as good a reason as "so, you come across a pack of bears".

[Rogue Shadows]

You are so weird. Look, if it's unknowable, just say it's unknowable. If you want players to use divination a certain way because you hate them knowing things, then either houserule it explicitly or play a game with weaker divination effects.

It's not unknowable, it's a paradox. There's a difference. I don't hate them knowing things, but if they ask a question ("will I cast magic missile tomorrow"), get a true answer, and then work to make that not come true (by not casting magic missile), then they've created a paradox, and HERE! COME! THE DRUMS! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNV2EEz_DUA)


Why the heck would you make them fight a demon because they asked a question you didn't like that you then answered out of spite?!

How is an EL-appropriate encounter - for whatever contrived reason - spiteful? Am I spiting the players when I make them fight goblins?

[Doc Roc]

It's not unknowable, it's a paradox. There's a difference. I don't hate them knowing things, but if they ask a question ("will I cast magic missile tomorrow"), get a true answer, and then work to make that not come true (by not casting magic missile), then they've created a paradox, and HERE! COME! THE DRUMS! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNV2EEz_DUA)



How is an EL-appropriate encounter - for whatever contrived reason - spiteful? Am I spiting the players when I make them fight goblins?

Are goblins part of the plot? Do they advance the story?

[Rogue Shadows]

Are goblins part of the plot? Do they advance the story?

Are paradoxes? Paradoxes and nearly destroying the universe have a way of kind of taking over a campaign's plot.

[nedz]

So, if you've managed to annoy some random outsider with constant questioning, ..., it might go something like this :

"Is anyone planning to assassinate me?"
Yes
"Will I run into any monsters with Immunity to Fire tomorrow?"
No - you will be dead.
"Will I see any creature not native to the material plane tomorrow?"
Yes, well your soul will
"Will I enter into a conflict with any undead tomorrow?"
Well, you're body will - after I've animated it
"Has anyone attempted to use divination magic against me today?"
Oh yes - you can't escape me.
"Does anyone who I consider to be my enemy and believe to be dead, still live?"
Yes.

:smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

So, if you've managed to annoy some random outsider with constant questioning, ..., it might go something like this :

"Is anyone planning to assassinate me?"
Yes
"Will I run into any monsters with Immunity to Fire tomorrow?"
No - you will be dead.
"Will I see any creature not native to the material plane tomorrow?"
Yes, well your soul will
"Will I enter into a conflict with any undead tomorrow?"
Well, you're body will - after I've animated it
"Has anyone attempted to use divination magic against me today?"
Oh yes - you can't escape me.
"Does anyone who I consider to be my enemy and believe to be dead, still live?"
Yes.

:smallbiggrin:
"Will the DM kill my character off for no better reason than using his class features?"
"Yes."

[Rogue Shadows]

"Will the DM kill my character off for no better reason than using his class features?"
"Yes."

"No."

(The being you contacted is probably unaware of the existance of the DM)

Alternatively:

For exploiting the game in a way the creators never intended for the express purpose of basically interrogating the DM about the particulars of his campaign and basically removing any real fun for anyone except for the wizard that is acting dickishly.

Yes.

But only if you word your questions poorly...

Also, this situation is avoidable by not contacting the same being every time, I suppose.

[Flickerdart]

"No."

(The being you contacted is probably unaware of the existance of the DM)

Alternatively:

For exploiting the game in a way the creators never intended for the express purpose of basically interrogating the DM about the particulars of his campaign and basically removing any real fun for anyone except for the wizard that is acting dickishly.

Yes.

But only if you word your questions poorly...

Also, this situation is avoidable by not contacting the same being every time, I suppose.
The creators never intended lots of things, but here we are. If we only ever did what the creators intended, this would be a video game. Played under the watchful eye of the totalitarian WotC regime's secret police. With telepathy helmets that let us know exactly what the devs were thinking.

[flumphy]

I don't treat characters as disposable by any means, but I actually welcome being screwed over by my own poor wording in these situations. I find it hilarious. I love seeing the creative ways GMs can twist things. Then again, I'm very into puns and wordplay, as is most of my real life group. I guess I can see why it would bother someone who wasn't.

[TheGeckoKing]

In practice, how do you/your DM handle this in your games? If a Contact Other Plane prediction would be invalidated by the actions of the PCs, will strange coincidences by necessity occur so as to make the prediction come true?


Going by the lore already in D&D, I guess the Inevitables would come to flay your spacial dimensions or something.

[nedz]

"Will the DM kill my character off for no better reason than using his class features?"
"Yes."
Well I wasn't being entirely serious; but if I were to take action it would be because the player was spoiling everyone else's fun and not for the reason you state.

[Taelas]

As I mentioned in my rant earlier, there are limits built into the spell. If you simply assume that even deities cannot know the future, then any attempt to divine it will simply result in "Unknown".

That will almost always result in a cry of "unfair nerf", however. :smallannoyed:

[Flickerdart]

As I mentioned in my rant earlier, there are limits built into the spell. If you simply assume that even deities cannot know the future, then any attempt to divine it will simply result in "Unknown".

That will almost always result in a cry of "unfair nerf", however. :smallannoyed:
Deities are explicitly stated to know the future. Unless this homebrew change is discussed with the player before he learned the spell, it is indeed an "unfair nerf".

[Little Brother]

In practice, how do you/your DM handle this in your games? If a Contact Other Plane prediction would be invalidated by the actions of the PCs, will strange coincidences by necessity occur so as to make the prediction come true?Then some circumstance comes up, prophesies are guidelines, or the heroes are immune to fate. Your choice.

EDIT: I guess this goes for all of you who mention this as a tool for choosing spells to prepare based on what will happen in the future. Does this occur in the games you actually play, and if so, how do you handle the fact that the DM cannot themselves predict the future? I can see several strategies that might help, but am curious as to how other people handle it outside of theoretical games.They can control things. Does the DM have to follow exactly what they planned out? Can they not adapt? If they can't, you have a terrible DM. HORRIBLE.

[Taelas]

Deities are explicitly stated to know the future.

Feel free to cite sources. As far as I am aware, deities can predict things which may happen within their own portfolio in the near future, and that's it. Deities in D&D are not omniscient (and the extent of their knowledge should not be determined by percentile dice; that's always been idiotic). They don't necessarily know the future any more than a rock does.

There is not even a mention of the future in the spell's description, either to point it out as an option or to deny the possibility of it.

[DeAnno]

There is not even a mention of the future in the spell's description, either to point it out as an option or to deny the possibility of it.


You get a true, one-word answer. Questions that cannot be answered in this way are answered randomly.

If the future is not set, no answers about it are strictly true, except "Maybe". Therefore all questions explicitly wanting information about future events should be answered with Maybe.

EDIT: fixed logic error

[nedz]

Contact Other Plane
Divination
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Concentration

You send your mind to another plane of existence (an Elemental Plane or some plane farther removed) in order to receive advice and information from powers there. (See the accompanying table for possible consequences and results of the attempt.) The powers reply in a language you understand, but they resent such contact and give only brief answers to your questions. (All questions are answered with “yes,” “no,” “maybe,” “never,” “irrelevant,” or some other one-word answer.)

You must concentrate on maintaining the spell (a standard action) in order to ask questions at the rate of one per round. A question is answered by the power during the same round. For every two caster levels, you may ask one question.

Contact with minds far removed from your home plane increases the probability that you will incur a decrease to Intelligence and Charisma, but the chance of the power knowing the answer, as well as the probability of the entity answering correctly, are likewise increased by moving to distant planes.

Once the Outer Planes are reached, the power of the deity contacted determines the effects. (Random results obtained from the table are subject to the personalities of individual deities.)

On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces.

d% is rolled for the result shown on the table:


"Will the DM kill my character off for no better reason than using his class features?"
"Yes."
Actually its right there in the Spell Description. Actually the wording in the PH is slightly different in that it specificaly includes DM fiat.

[Flickerdart]

Feel free to cite sources. As far as I am aware, deities can predict things which may happen within their own portfolio in the near future, and that's it.
Which is why you ask deities with relevant portfolios. That seems pretty straightforward. Since deities, especially Greater ones, tend to have their own planes, it's pretty easy to avoid calling the wrong one.

[Calanon]

This thread got derailed... like so hard :smalleek:

What do divinations have to do with Sorcerer? Is this thread even about Sorcerers anymore?

[Flickerdart]

This thread got derailed... like so hard :smalleek:

What do divinations have to do with Sorcerer? Is this thread even about Sorcerers anymore?
All threads about magic come down to Contact Other Plane. It is the curse of the Time Lords.

[chadmeister]

This thread got derailed... like so hard :smalleek:

What do divinations have to do with Sorcerer? Is this thread even about Sorcerers anymore?

Worse yet, it was about Core Sorcerers. Core D&D says almost nothing about Deities (here's a list of their domain).

And it's silly arguing that a Core Sorcerer is useless by bringing up all the things a Wizard can do when given access to all the expansion books.

[Calanon]

All threads about magic come down to Contact Other Plane. It is the curse of the Time Lords.

Alright, your going to have to repeat this, except say it in a way that a person who has never watched Doctor Who would understand :smallannoyed:



Worse yet, it was about Core Sorcerers. Core D&D says almost nothing about Deities (here's a list of their domain) (http://home.comcast.net/~ftm3/JHtB/domains.html).

And it's silly arguing that a Core Sorcerer is useless by bringing up all the things a Wizard can do when given access to all the expansion books.

I concur my friend (Also gave put the link to all the domains and deities associated with them in your comment :smallwink:)

I lost faith in the tier list when I first discovered the pun-pun build... If a Wizard who is proclaimed god by everyone under the sun can be beaten by the most optimized creature in creation then why even bother looking towards the Tier list for guidance knowing that with proper optimization anything can beat anything?

[Flickerdart]

I lost faith in the tier list when I first discovered the pun-pun build... If a Wizard who is proclaimed god by everyone under the sun can be beaten by the most optimized creature in creation then why even bother looking towards the Tier list for guidance knowing that with proper optimization anything can beat anything?
Because the tier list doesn't measure builds, especially TO builds. It measures classes in a CO context.

Besides, none of Pun-Pun's power comes from class levels.

[Little Brother]

Worse yet, it was about Core Sorcerers. Core D&D says almost nothing about Deities (here's a list of their domain).

And it's silly arguing that a Core Sorcerer is useless by bringing up all the things a Wizard can do when given access to all the expansion books.Contact other plane is in an expansion book?

That alone makes spontaneousness near-useless.

[Calanon]

Because the tier list doesn't measure builds, especially TO builds. It measures classes in a CO context.

Besides, none of Pun-Pun's power comes from class levels.


So lemme get this straight, a Wizard with all the versatility in the multiverse will always be better then a Psion because the Wizard can get more spells then the Psion can get more powers? Because the Psion has a limit to the number of PP they can use in a single day? or what? Why is the Psion viewed as inferior to the Wizard? If I'm missing something please enlighten me



Contact other plane is in an expansion book?

That alone makes spontaneousness near-useless.

Its a Core Spell, I believe Contact other plane works on the idea that you've bought Deities & Demigods so it really doesn't even make sense it being core :smallconfused:

EDIT: omg i just thought what would happen if a Sorcerer selected Apocalypse from the sky as a spell known :smalleek: the poor Sorcerer would go insane :smallfrown:

[Doc Roc]

All threads about magic come down to Contact Other Plane. It is the curse of the Time Lords.

One of these days, I'm going to do a podcast called Radio-Free Gallifrey, with almost no related content. That aside, Flicker's got a point. A huge portion of the power of a caster devolves to how many times can you recklessly cast divinations?

[Hiro Protagonest]

So lemme get this straight, a Wizard with all the versatility in the multiverse will always be better then a Psion because the Wizard can get more spells then the Psion can get more powers? Because the Psion has a limit to the number of PP they can use in a single day? or what? Why is the Psion viewed as inferior to the Wizard? If I'm missing something please enlighten me

It's because a specialist wizard with WBL will have far more spells than a psion has powers. If he uses divinations to learn about the psion, and contacts the appropriate god (probably Boccob, or maybe some god who knows everything that will happen "on the earth", "in view of the sky", or something similar) to learn when the psion will attack, he can prepare the appropriate spell to deal with him, and the day afterwards, he can prepare spells to go fight a dragon, or an army of trolls and giants, or anything really.

Also, Pun-Pun is not a psion. He's an ardent (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)#Pun-Pun_at_Level_1).

[Calanon]

It's because a specialist wizard with WBL will have far more spells than a psion has powers. If he uses divinations to learn about the psion, and contacts the appropriate god (probably Boccob, or maybe some god who knows everything that will happen "on the earth", "in view of the sky", or something similar) to learn when the psion will attack, he can prepare the appropriate spell to deal with him, and the day afterwards, he can prepare spells to go fight a dragon, or an army of trolls and giants, or anything really.

Also, Pun-Pun is not a psion. He's an ardent (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)#Pun-Pun_at_Level_1).

I was using Psion as an example of a tier 2 class VS a tier 1 class you silly billy :smalltongue:

So the reason Wizards are so game smashing is because of Divination?

[Doc Roc]

I was using Psion as an example of a tier 2 class VS a tier 1 class you silly billy :smalltongue:

So the reason Wizards are so game smashing is because of Divination?

It's a huge contributing factor. But it's not the only thing. Removing it is not enough.

[chadmeister]

Contact other plane is in an expansion book?

That alone makes spontaneousness near-useless.

Not Contact other Plane, but much of the rest of the arguments here have involved expansion books.

And Contact Other Plane can't predict the future well enough (if your DM lets them do it at all) to make spontaneousness useless

[Hiro Protagonest]

I was using Psion as an example of a tier 2 class VS a tier 1 class you silly billy :smalltongue:

So the reason Wizards are so game smashing is because of Divination?

Well, they could just use knowledge (local) to find out about what powers you use ("he hurls blasts of fire"/"his words are persuasive") and then prepare defenses against you. That doesn't require divination, it just requires him to know in advance you're some sort of magic-user. Edit: Actually, he doesn't even have to know that. He just has to know your name or widely-used nickname/title.

[Calanon]

Well, they could just use knowledge (local) to find out about what powers you use ("he hurls blasts of fire"/"his words are persuasive") and then prepare defenses against you. That doesn't require divination, it just requires him to know in advance you're some sort of magic-user. Edit: Actually, he doesn't even have to know that. He just has to know your name or widely-used nickname/title.

Hmm... I would throw Vecna-blooded template out there if it wasn't specific to Arcane casters (And I'd feel like i would be just throwing problems at you hoping you would fail and that would be pretty childish:smalltongue:)

So even without Divination a Wizard can still fall back on his/her Knowledge skills?

[Flickerdart]

So lemme get this straight, a Wizard with all the versatility in the multiverse will always be better then a Psion because the Wizard can get more spells then the Psion can get more powers? Because the Psion has a limit to the number of PP they can use in a single day? or what? Why is the Psion viewed as inferior to the Wizard? If I'm missing something please enlighten me

The Psion can learn 40 powers. Within these powers, he can have a good number of tricks that break the game. But a Wizard can learn all the Wizard spells. Within these spells, he has most of the tricks that break the game. The difference between T1 and T2 is the amount of game-breaking tricks. It's important to note that a Wizard will almost never actually have all the spells, but getting access to any spell he needs is exceptionally trivial.

[Doc Roc]

Hmm... I would throw Vecna-blooded template out there if it wasn't specific to Arcane casters (And I'd feel like i would be just throwing problems at you hoping you would fail and that would be pretty childish:smalltongue:)

So even without Divination a Wizard can still fall back on his/her Knowledge skills?

Vecna blooded doesn't protect against questions aimed at second-order effects. Metafaculty doesn't give a crap about your blood. Psions rule.

[Taelas]

Which is why you ask deities with relevant portfolios. That seems pretty straightforward. Since deities, especially Greater ones, tend to have their own planes, it's pretty easy to avoid calling the wrong one.

What? ... What?

Deities don't have their own planes!

Are you just pulling stuff out of thin air, now? Deities live on the Outer Planes, not on individual demi-planes. I could go through the core D&D pantheon and name a home plane for each one.

What they can have is a layer of a plane to themselves, but contact other plane doesn't deal with layers at all, just planes.

There are seventeen of the Outer Planes, where deities live, each plane with a name. Ysgard, Celestia, Arborea, Acherus, Arcadia, Baator, the Abyss, Mechanus, Limbo, the Outlands, Pandemonium, Bytopia, the Beastlands, Carceri, Gehenna, and uh.... Elysium, and Hades, that's all 17.

The Inner Planes (the elemental planes as well as the positive and negative energy planes) do not house deities, nor do the three transitive planes (Astral, Shadow, and Ethereal). The Material Plane does have some, like Vecna, or Fharlanghn.

[Doc Roc]

What? ... What?

Deities don't have their own planes!

Are you just pulling stuff out of thin air, now? Deities live on the Outer Planes, not on individual demi-planes. I could go through the core D&D pantheon and name a home plane for each one.

What they can have is a layer of a plane to themselves, but contact other plane doesn't deal with layers at all, just planes.

There are seventeen of the Outer Planes, where deities live, each plane with a name. Ysgard, Celestia, Arborea, Acherus, Arcadia, Baator, the Abyss, Mechanus, Limbo, the Outlands, Pandemonium, Bytopia, the Beastlands, Carceri, Gehenna, and uh.... Elysium, and Hades, that's all 17.

The Inner Planes (the elemental planes as well as the positive and negative energy planes) do not house deities, nor do the three transitive planes (Astral, Shadow, and Ethereal). The Material Plane does have some, like Vecna, or Fharlanghn.

Actually, quite a few have demi-planes.

[Taelas]

Actually, quite a few have demi-planes.

...
Fine, I'll bloody name the plane of each one.

Boccob: The Outlands.
Corellon Larethian: Arborea.
Ehlonna: The Beastlands.
Erythnul: Pandemonium.
Fharlanghn: The Material Plane.
Garl Glittergold: Bytopia.
Gruumsh: Acheron.
Heironeous: Celestia.
Hextor: Acheron.
Kord: Ysgard.
Moradin: Celestia.
Nerull: Carceri.
Obad-Hai: The Outlands.
Olidammara: Ysgard.
Pelor: Elysium.
St. Cuthbert: Arcadia.
Vecna: The Material Plane.
Wee Jas: Acheron.
Yondalla: Celestia.

No. They do not have their own demi-planes.

[Calanon]

What? ... What?

Deities don't have their own planes!

Are you just pulling stuff out of thin air, now? Deities live on the Outer Planes, not on individual demi-planes. I could go through the core D&D pantheon and name a home plane for each one.

What they can have is a layer of a plane to themselves, but contact other plane doesn't deal with layers at all, just planes.

There are seventeen of the Outer Planes, where deities live, each plane with a name. Ysgard, Celestia, Arborea, Acherus, Arcadia, Baator, the Abyss, Mechanus, Limbo, the Outlands, Pandemonium, Bytopia, the Beastlands, Carceri, Gehenna, and uh.... Elysium, and Hades, that's all 17.

The Inner Planes (the elemental planes as well as the positive and negative energy planes) do not house deities, nor do the three transitive planes (Astral, Shadow, and Ethereal). The Material Plane does have some, like Vecna, or Fharlanghn.

Is this for core only? because if its not for core only then you missed some...

[Flickerdart]

...
Fine, I'll bloody name the plane of each one.

Boccob: The Outlands.
Corellon Larethian: Arborea.
Ehlonna: The Beastlands.
Erythnul: Pandemonium.
Fharlanghn: The Material Plane.
Garl Glittergold: Bytopia.
Gruumsh: Acheron.
Heironeous: Celestia.
Hextor: Acheron.
Kord: Ysgard.
Moradin: Celestia.
Nerull: Carceri.
Obad-Hai: The Outlands.
Olidammara: Ysgard.
Pelor: Elysium.
St. Cuthbert: Arcadia.
Vecna: The Material Plane.
Wee Jas: Acheron.
Yondalla: Celestia.

No. They do not have their own demi-planes.
Ok, now look at your list again.

Say I want a greater deity of the Sun (because I am concerned with the weather tomorrow). I dial up Elysium. Who is a valid responder to my call? Only Pelor. Next, I want to know if I'll be attacked by Elves, so I ring up Arborea, and the only greater deity there is Corellon. I have exactly 0 chance of getting someone who doesn't know what I want to know.

[Taelas]

That list is only of the deities IN THE PHB.

It is not all the deities that live on those planes.


Is this for core only? because if its not for core only then you missed some...

It's the core D&D cosmology, yes.

[DeAnno]

Has anyone ever used CoP the way it's being described in this thread in a real game? Casting it targeted at specific Deities, multiple times to brute force answers, and to gather information about the future? (All of that at once, or it doesn't count).

Saying that such ridiculous abuse of CoP invalidates the Sorc class completely is like saying that 1d2 Crusaders make uberchargers obsolete.

[Calanon]

Alright so now I'm going to ask two questions.

1. What was the original topic?

2. what is the current thread discussion about and what does it have to do with the original topic?

[Doc Roc]

Has anyone ever used CoP the way it's being described in this thread in a real game? Casting it targeted at specific Deities, multiple times to brute force answers, and to gather information about the future? (All of that at once, or it doesn't count).

Saying that such ridiculous abuse of CoP invalidates the Sorc class completely is like saying that 1d2 Crusaders make uberchargers obsolete.

Yes. I have. And it was totally awesome.

[Blisstake]

Alright so now I'm going to ask two questions.

1. What was the original topic?

2. what is the current thread discussion about and what does it have to do with the original topic?

1. What the point of playing a sorcerer is in core 3.5, or why anyone would prefer to play one.

2. The nuances of how Contact Other Plane can work. Basically, some people are saying this makes wizards superior because it helps them know what spells to prepare in advance - something sorcerer's cannot do.

[nedz]

Alright so now I'm going to ask two questions.

1. What was the original topic?

2. what is the current thread discussion about and what does it have to do with the original topic?

Well, to try and loop the CoP debate back into the original topic.

A Sorceror can Spam CoP, but the spell requires an Int based check - so a Wizard is more likely to be successful with this.
Caveats

There maybe some way around this problem - eg Int Buffs, whatever
CoP is dependant upon Rule 0
By RAW casting CoP annoys the deity you are hassling. Since Deity > Wizard this may be an advantage to the Sorceror anyway. Kind of a phyric victory for the Wizard.

[Flickerdart]

That list is only of the deities IN THE PHB.

It is not all the deities that live on those planes.
In core? Yes, I'm afraid it is.

[Maryring]

Where in the spell does it state that you can choose your target? It seems to suggest that you can target a plane, but I can't see it targetting an individual.

[Taelas]

In core? Yes, I'm afraid it is.

Sigh.

Turn your Monster Manual to pages 29, 32, 49, 92, 103, 133, 162, 169, 170, 218, 247, and 263. On every single one of those pages, there is a new deity not mentioned in the Player's Handbook. (I might have missed some.)

Then get the Monster Manual Errata file, and look under the heading "Monstrous Deities", as well as Table A-1: Monstrous Deities.

Kurtulmak, for example, lives on Baator. Lloth lives in the Abyss. Deep Sashelas lives on Arborea. All of those deities belong on the Outer Planes, just as the ones in the PHB.

Also, keep in mind that I was speaking of the core D&D pantheon and cosmology, not the core books.

[dextercorvia]

This is brilliant.

Thanks. Sigged.


What actually happens if you psychic ref the feat away?


Well, you lose the benefits of the feat. Since the feat granted you spells known, you'd lose them...

Unless, of course, you didn't have those spells known anymore. If you didn't, you'd have nothing to lose.

This has always been my assumption -- although I planned to chaos shuffle them away.

[Chronos]

Y'know, if I cast a spell like Contact Other Plains and the DM didn't try to rules-lawyer the answers, I'd be positively disappointed. The whole point of D&D is to create interactive fantasy adventure epics. And in all the great fantasy adventure epics, whenever there's a prophecy, the folks at the heart of it always manage to misinterpret it, despite it being precisely and technically correct. If the DM gives you easy-to-understand prophecies, what's the fun in that? That's not the way it's supposed to go.

And just choosing a plain to (try to) get a relevant deity is risky, too, since you need to ask multiple times to be sure you didn't roll the "lie" answer. And it'd be kind of meaningless to expect different answers from the same deity. If I ask Pelor what the weather will be like, and he hates me and lies to me, if I ask again he's just going to lie again. To ask each question, say, four times, you'd need to contact four different deities.

[Rogue Shadows]

Y'know, if I cast a spell like Contact Other Plains and the DM didn't try to rules-lawyer the answers, I'd be positively disappointed. The whole point of D&D is to create interactive fantasy adventure epics. And in all the great fantasy adventure epics, whenever there's a prophecy, the folks at the heart of it always manage to misinterpret it, despite it being precisely and technically correct. If the DM gives you easy-to-understand prophecies, what's the fun in that? That's not the way it's supposed to go.

I concur. I especially concur when the PCs are resorting to CoP for trivial tasks. Prophecy dispensers hate people who constantly look into the future for their own power. That's, like, what the bad guys do.

[Doc Roc]

I concur. I especially concur when the PCs are resorting to CoP for trivial tasks. Prophecy dispensers hate people who constantly look into the future for their own power. That's, like, what the bad guys do.

So, in your world, lawful good deities hate helping people save the world?


Actually, that sounds like your average fantasy setting. Carry on.

[DeAnno]

So, in your world, lawful good deities hate helping people save the world?

Actually, that sounds like your average fantasy setting. Carry on.

The worst thing is a temporal arms race. If your party is abusing CoP to see the future, what happens if the NPC you're fighting against ALSO abuses CoP to see the future? I think simulating such an event might be ... difficult.

[Rogue Shadows]

So, in your world, lawful good deities hate helping people save the world?

They hate being bothered about spell selection when they're going dios a dios with Asmodeus, yeah.

Besides which, I heavily ascribe to the FRCS line that deities are essentially beyond concepts like Law/Chaos and Good/Evil. A good deity may well do evil things for reasons that are inscrutable to a mortal, or even no reason at all.

And some of them really hate it when the wizards try to create paradoxes. Hence, Paradox demons.

[Endarire]

I have nothing profound to say.

Sorcerers seem like a newbie trap. Having played 2E Mages, Sorcerers were more confusing at first:

What do you mean I can only know 3 spells and cast all of them from a common pool? I thought the 4 spells per day meant I could use each spell 4 times!

I played Sorcerers in tabletop and video RPG adaptations.

Wizards are still better. In almost any situation. A bad spell selection today can be remedied tomorrow as a Wizard. And Wizards get spells sooner.

I like Psions, which seem intended to replace Sorcerers. They do the spontaneous thing right.

[Flickerdart]

Sigh.

Turn your Monster Manual to pages 29, 32, 49, 92, 103, 133, 162, 169, 170, 218, 247, and 263. On every single one of those pages, there is a new deity not mentioned in the Player's Handbook. (I might have missed some.)

Then get the Monster Manual Errata file, and look under the heading "Monstrous Deities", as well as Table A-1: Monstrous Deities.

Kurtulmak, for example, lives on Baator. Lloth lives in the Abyss. Deep Sashelas lives on Arborea. All of those deities belong on the Outer Planes, just as the ones in the PHB.

Also, keep in mind that I was speaking of the core D&D pantheon and cosmology, not the core books.
Deep Sashelas is not a Greater deity, so I'm not talking to him if I ping Arborea at max CL. Nice try though.

[Rogue Shadows]

Deep Sashelas is not a Greater deity, so I'm not talking to him if I ping Arborea at max CL. Nice try though.

He wasn't saying you were. He was pointing out that deities don't tend to have their own demiplanes, or at least don't tend to hang out on them, even if they can create them.

[Psyren]

"No."

(The being you contacted is probably unaware of the existance of the DM)

I don't think you were meant to take that question seriously. :smalltongue:


So lemme get this straight, a Wizard with all the versatility in the multiverse will always be better then a Psion because the Wizard can get more spells then the Psion can get more powers? Because the Psion has a limit to the number of PP they can use in a single day? or what? Why is the Psion viewed as inferior to the Wizard? If I'm missing something please enlighten me

Magic has several potent advantages over psionics, particularly in the Conjuration, Illusion, Necromancy and metamagic areas.

Psionics had the edge in Divination, Evocation and Enchantment - unfortunately, those happen to be the three weakest schools.

Psionics does however possess great facility as far as temporal manipulation (read: action economy) and object creation.


Its a Core Spell, I believe Contact other plane works on the idea that you've bought Deities & Demigods so it really doesn't even make sense it being core :smallconfused:

Hm? There are deities in the core books; they just happen to be Product Identity and so didn't make it to the SRD.

[Suddo]

If leadership is unbanned then sorcs might have a slight advantage with charisma being a key stat. But I always dislike that sorcs only get 2+Int skills which is almost always Spellcraft UMD or maybe something for a prereq unless you increase your Int, which in some point spreads is somewhat annoying; Compared to the Wizard which, assuming Leadership is banned, can dump Charisma and still be a better diplomancer than the Sorc due to his high Int. Its just a little annoyance I have. That and that Wizards get feat while Sorcs don't. It allows them to become even more versatile then the Sorcs. I sometimes think the R&D team though that Sorcs were superior and needed nerfing, while it could be argued they are better in some ways the fact is those 2 thing always make me shy away from Sorcs versus Wizards.

[Myth]

Ah yes, CoP has it's disadvantages. I know how to make it a progressively worse risk if they abuse it too much. I don't mind them asking things that advance the plot however.

The real problem seems to be Commune. See, a good aligned Cleric and his all-powerful Deity friend should be free of all those pesky limitations (and they are by RAW). So then I'd be stuck answering most of them. Well there is a back door (get a servant to answer that stuff. Like a Planetar or something) but still it's harder spell to negate via fiat.

Overall though (and we've gone way off topic - Core sorcerers and all) I tend to encourage (or otherwise force if necessary) my players to use stuff as it was intended by the game desigenrs. IMO (and me being the DM, my opinion matters) CoP and Commune are meant to resolve specific problems I present or the party has created, or to advance the plot, help solve one of the big daramatic mysteries etc. Batman/GOD trying to cover his options and to avoid the wrath of the DM...?

What is the point anyway? Surely if a DM wants your Wizard dead, your Wizard will die. A player going by Tippy's advice has already entered the Celerity-Timestop-lol astrally projected-Shapechanged etc. arms race vs. the DM and I don't see this ending well for either party really.

And all the while, this time could have been spent playing and advancing the story. Don't forget what DnD is after all - storytelling, mythology made flesh for the modern day folk that is superior to movies and PC games (arguably). I once read some poster here saying how his groups weekly sessions consisted of the party of tier 1 casters flying somewhere, invisible and buffed, finding the target (which they scry-ed last night) and nuking it from orbit. Great, you've now achieved "grinding for XP and gold" in a game that has the single best advantage out of any such forms of entertainment - an unlimited story and unlimited freedom of action and choice.

[Talya]

No it doesn't - the Wizard still knows over twice as many 1st level spells as the Sorcerer. There is never a moment when they know the same amount.

All those "spells known" don't really matter nearly so much as how many different spells they can have memorized at any given time, and in what quantity, right now. (And note, any half-decently built sorcerer knows 1-2 more spells per spell level than core would indicate they should. Possibly more than that.)

The potential to use more spells is nice, but once any given fight comes along, it ceases to matter.

The sorcerer tends to have more useful tactical options (things to do in any given fight -- especially if they take a lot of metamagic feats.) The wizard tends to have far more strategic options (they get to choose what spells they can ready every day, as opposed to every level. In the end, especially with the 1-level delay on sorcerer spells, the well-played wizard ends up more powerful, but it's not nearly so big a difference in real gameplay as forum gameplay theorists would have us believe.

[Blisstake]

(And note, any half-decently built sorcerer knows 1-2 more spells per spell level than core would indicate they should. Possibly more than that.)

Are there any ways for a core sorcerer to learn new spells aside from leveling up?

[FearlessGnome]

Edit: Woops, sorry. Didn't see the word "core".


Are there any ways for a core sorcerer to learn new spells aside from leveling up?As brought up previously in the thread:

A Bloodline feat will add one spell know per spell level. Apprentice (Dungeon Master's Guide II) will let you swap out spells known more often than usual. So both put together will get you one extra spell of your choice per spell level.

If you are open to the idea of having unholy undead flesh growing inside of you, there's also Mother Cyst, from Libris Mortis, which adds another 10 [Evil] spells. Swap them out. As long as you pick a good bloodline, that's 20 nice spells added to your list by level 20, for the cost of three feats.

An item called a Knowstone will let you add more spells known while you have the (slotless) item. Costs you 1000*Spellevel squared.

So options do exist. If evil doesn't fit into the equation, there's still the bloodline and the Knowstones.

[Analytica]

Then some circumstance comes up, prophesies are guidelines, or the heroes are immune to fate. Your choice.
They can control things. Does the DM have to follow exactly what they planned out? Can they not adapt? If they can't, you have a terrible DM. HORRIBLE.

Thank you for responding. I agree, and I can see a number of ways in which this can be done. I am just curious as to which of these options that other people actually choose in real games.

Notably, if prophecies are only guidelines or the like, it seems to me that wizards won't necessarily be prepared for everything they encounter, only for a majority of cases, meaning that there may still be some slight robustness advantage to being a sorcerer rather than a wizard. Probably not enough to count for much, though.

[Blisstake]

Edit: Woops, sorry. Didn't see the word "core".

As brought up previously in the thread:

A Bloodline feat will add one spell know per spell level. Apprentice (Dungeon Master's Guide II) will let you swap out spells known more often than usual. So both put together will get you one extra spell of your choice per spell level.

If you are open to the idea of having unholy undead flesh growing inside of you, there's also Mother Cyst, from Libris Mortis, which adds another 10 [Evil] spells. Swap them out. As long as you pick a good bloodline, that's 20 nice spells added to your list by level 20, for the cost of three feats.

An item called a Knowstone will let you add more spells known while you have the (slotless) item. Costs you 1000*Spellevel squared.

So options do exist. If evil doesn't fit into the equation, there's still the bloodline and the Knowstones.

Okay, but only when going into splatbook territory?

The list is still useful though, thank you :smallsmile:

[nedz]

Well there are a number of Feats and PrCs, not in core I'm afraid. CDiv has quite a few though.

[dextercorvia]

Okay, but only when going into splatbook territory?

The list is still useful though, thank you :smallsmile:

Not in core. Here are a few more options.

Runestaves in the MIC (note that you can customize them). Extra Spell in CArc. Sandshaper from Sandstorm. Exalted Arcanist (IIRC -- BoED). Arcane Preparation gets access to sanctified spells. Draconic Leagacy grants a few more spells. Gaining a domain from a Prestige class -- like Divine Oracle.

[heinrich]

Mother Cyst doesn't. My Necrotic Apprentice trick does.

Apprentice Spellcaster gives an additional spell known at 1st level, and the ability to swap one spell every time you level up. Mother Cyst gives the 10 spells known you mentioned. You then proceed to swap your 10 mother cyst spells over the next several levels (save some of the low level ones to use your normal sorcerer swap on). You can add in a bloodline feat to make it a total of 20 additional spells known.
But you can only swap "Spells Known". The Cyst feat only grants the ability to cast these spells, doesn't make them actual "Spells Known" that can be swaped put for other spells...

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Please don't revive old threads.