[3.5] Questions on Launch Item and Shrink Item

[imneuromancer]

The Launch Object Spell from Spell Compendium Launches an object "to fly at great speed to a target or location you specify..." (SpC p. 131)

Shrink Item states that an item can be returned to normal size with "a word of command from the original caster" (PHB)

Based on the DMG section on The Environment->Falling Objects, for every 200 lbs of weight, it deals 1d6 points of damage. For every 10' of distance after the first 10' (or so), it does an additional 1d6 damage.

AT 5th level you can shrink a 1400+ pound stone (7d6 of damage), more at higher levels.

So:
1) If you Launch Item at someone, can you send a Shrunk stone and then use the command word to expand the item before it hits the target? You would be using a free action (the command word) in conjunction with a standard action (casting Launch Item).

2) Would the "at great speeds" of the Launch Item spell count as falling for purposes of damage?

3) If so, how much extra damage would it do?

4) Instead of hitting a PERSON with the object, could you target the square in which they are located and still do damage?

5) If you can target the square instead of the person, would they then get a reflex save? What would the DC of that save be?

[Fax Celestis]

All of this depends on your DM, as none of it is strictly laid out by the rules or the spells involved.

[Darrin]

1) If you Launch Item at someone, can you send a Shrunk stone and then use the command word to expand the item before it hits the target? You would be using a free action (the command word) in conjunction with a standard action (casting Launch Item).


This is generally allowed the first time you pull this trick on a DM. After that, he either shuts it down with a houserule, or returns the favor by throwing heavy objects at your head.



2) Would the "at great speeds" of the Launch Item spell count as falling for purposes of damage?


No. You'd most likely want to treat it as an improvised weapon, and use the table on page 159 in Complete Warrior to calculate the damage. A 1400 lb. stone would do 5d6 based on the table, but the table only goes up to 400 lbs. If you extrapolate the table out to bigger objects... 401-800 lbs = 6d6, 801-1600 lbs = 7d6, so that's not too far off from your falling object damage.

However, you could also choose to throw your rock at the square 10' above your opponent, which would then drop on his head for 7d6 damage.



3) If so, how much extra damage would it do?


If dropped from above, then you'd use the falling object rules. Assuming the object is 200+ lbs, it has to fall at least 10', and then each additional 10' adds another 1d6 damage. There's a maximum cap of 20d6 for falling objects, but it's not clear from the text if this maximum is for the weight portion or the distance portion. I think most DMs treat it as a maximum for both weight + distance.



4) Instead of hitting a PERSON with the object, could you target the square in which they are located and still do damage?

5) If you can target the square instead of the person, would they then get a reflex save? What would the DC of that save be?


If you want to treat the rock as an area-effect for that square, then whoever was in that square would most likely get a Ref save (DC 15 to negate is usually the default). But you're essentially forcing the DM to make up some houserules on the fly.

If you drop the rock from a height, then you can use the Aerial Bombardment rules from Heroes of Battle (p. 68), and these do specify that you make an attack roll vs. a target square, and anyone in that square gets a Ref save DC 15 to negate. However, if you don't have access to that book, then there's nothing in Core that says falling objects give the target a Ref save. The DM may decide that a Ref save applies, but again, you're at the mercy of his whims.

[nedz]

Use a bonfire - its cooler.:smallcool:

[imneuromancer]

All of this depends on your DM, as none of it is strictly laid out by the rules or the spells involved.

I agree with you on this, that is why I structured the question as I did with as little subjectivity as possible; based on the rules, I know how it probably SHOULD play out, but in that case I should be doing around 10-20d6 per rock I throw, and I wanted to see what holes I had in my thinking base don the boards' expertise.

For huge damage from this spell combo, I was thinking a wizard could:
1) take the aforementioned 1400+ pound rock (7d6 damage)
2) shrink it with Shrink Item
3) cast True Strike
3) hurtle the <1 lbs rock 150' into the air with Launch Item (for +15d6 damage when it falls)
4) Free action give command word, pebble turns to gigantic boulder
5) True Strike to hit target for +2x to hit, 20d6 damage (max)


Use a bonfire - its cooler.

True dat.


If you drop the rock from a height, then you can use the Aerial Bombardment rules from Heroes of Battle (p. 68)

Could someone summarize the rules for me on aerial bombardment??

[Curmudgeon]

1) If you Launch Item at someone, can you send a Shrunk stone and then use the command word to expand the item before it hits the target? You would be using a free action (the command word) in conjunction with a standard action (casting Launch Item).
You've got that wrong, I'm afraid. Shrink Item doesn't contain any exceptions to the standard rules for command words.
Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Command words are apparently nonsense like "supercalifragilisticexpialidocious" which take a full 3 seconds (1 standard action) to say.

This would only work if you could interject a standard action (the command word) inside another standard action (the attack).

[imneuromancer]

You've got that wrong, I'm afraid. Shrink Item doesn't contain any exceptions to the standard rules for command words. Command words are apparently nonsense like "supercalifragilisticexpialidocious" which take a full 3 seconds (1 standard action) to say.

This would only work if you could interject a standard action (the command word) inside another standard action (the attack).

AHA! An interesting wrinkle!

How about if someone else threw/shot/dropped the stone and the caster held an action to expand the stone at the appropriate time?

I.e. archer with "special arrows" fires arrow, wizard expands just as the arrow is to hit the target, etc. etc.

[Curmudgeon]

Yeah, a readied action by another person to say the command word should do it.