Question about Shadow Evocation

[Elric VIII]

Shadow Evocation

Illusion (Shadow)
Level: Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Effect: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with)
Spell Resistance: Yes

You tap energy from the Plane of Shadow to cast a quasi-real, illusory version of a sorcerer or wizard evocation spell of 4th level or lower. (For a spell with more than one level, use the best one applicable to you.)

Spells that deal damage have normal effects unless an affected creature succeeds on a Will save. Each disbelieving creature takes only one-fifth damage from the attack. If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is one-fifth as strong (if applicable) or only 20% likely to occur. If recognized as a shadow evocation, a damaging spell deals only one-fifth (20%) damage. Regardless of the result of the save to disbelieve, an affected creature is also allowed any save (or spell resistance) that the spell being simulated allows, but the save DC is set according to shadow evocation’s level (5th) rather than the spell’s normal level.

Nondamaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect.

Objects automatically succeed on their Will saves against this spell.

Emphasis, mine.

What are the implications of using this spell to cast Tenser's Floating Disk, Shatter (to break a door, etc), or Wind Wall?

Do objects automatically fall through the disk?

Does the Shatter do nothing?

Do arrows pass through the wall unimpeded?


I ask because the created effects are not actually 100% illusions, but "quasi-real."

[dextercorvia]

Emphasis, mine.

What are the implications of using this spell to cast Tenser's Floating Disk, Shatter (to break a door, etc), or Wind Wall?

Do objects automatically fall through the disk?

Does the Shatter do nothing?

Do arrows pass through the wall unimpeded?


I ask because the created effects are not actually 100% illusions, but "quasi-real."


or only 20% likely to occur

Wind Wall stops 20% of incoming arrows. Shatter is effective 20% of the time.

There are a couple of ways to do it with TFD, so that would be up to the DM.

[Madcrafter]

Non-magical objects don't get saving throws, so they can't auto succeed on them. The clause would refer to either attended objects or magic items, which do get to make saving throws.

[Elric VIII]

Those are both good points. Too bad they appear to be mutually exclusive. Is there any precedent favoring one over the other (i.e. - are objects referred to in spells with regards to saving throws considered to only be attended/magical)?

[Fouredged Sword]

The spells work as normal. Shadow evocation does not have the mind effecting tag, so it works fine on objects. The object would get a save, as an inanimate object. (if something or someone is holding it)

Edit: more reading into it.
"Nondamaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect."
"Objects automatically succeed on their Will saves against this spell."

Thus shatter does nothing. Objects, but not creatures, automatically fall through the disk, and arrows pass through the wind wall.

[Madcrafter]

Hmm... If no one is attending the object, per the rules on the SRD, it gets no saving throw, and therefore doesn't get the chance to use the "automatically succeeds" clause in the spell description. Attended objects, and magical ones, automatically succeed.

And even if the objects are going through the spells, there are still two interpretations. Either they would still have that percent chance of being affected (since the spell is partially real), or the spells act like the real ones but are only partially effective (the disk only holds a percentage of the usual weight).

[MesiDoomstalker]

The spells work as normal. Shadow evocation does not have the mind effecting tag, so it works fine on objects. The object would get a save, as an inanimate object. (if something or someone is holding it)

Edit: more reading into it.
"Nondamaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect."
"Objects automatically succeed on their Will saves against this spell."

Thus shatter does nothing. Objects, but not creatures, automatically fall through the disk, and arrows pass through the wind wall.

Hypethtical: My Shadow Crafter creates a 80% real Forcecage surrounding an enemy fighter in full-plate. Said fighter has ranks in Spellcraft and somehow figures out that it may be a Shadow Evocation instead of a regular Forcecage. He picks up a rock that was entrapped with him. He throws it through the wall, since the rock auto-believes, the rock goes through. Would the Fighter be able to walk through without a save or would he still have to save?

[Elric VIII]

Hypethtical: My Shadow Crafter creates a 80% real Forcecage surrounding an enemy fighter in full-plate. Said fighter has ranks in Spellcraft and somehow figures out that it may be a Shadow Evocation instead of a regular Forcecage. He picks up a rock that was entrapped with him. He throws it through the wall, since the rock auto-believes, the rock goes through. Would the Fighter be able to walk through without a save or would he still have to save?

Does evidence of nonreality force a save for a normal illusion? If you creat a silent image wall of stone, and someone hurls a rock through, do all spectators disbelieve (genuine inquiry, not socratic method :smallwink:)?

Because, if so, wouldn't just identifying the spell as an illusion spell (via spellcraft) allow you to bypass it?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Does evidence of nonreality force a save for a normal illusion? If you creat a silent image wall of stone, and someone hurls a rock through, do all spectators disbelieve (genuine inquiry, not socratic method :smallwink:)?

Because, if so, wouldn't just identifying the spell as an illusion spell (via spellcraft) allow you to bypass it?

Except its not completely fake either. Its 80% real. Sure you can identify it as quasi-real but does that mean you can ignore the part that is real?

[dextercorvia]

I stand corrected.

Shadow Evocation has two possible choices:

1. A spell that deals damage
2. A spell that deals no damage.

Furthermore, 1. is split into

1.a. Spells that deal only damage.
1.b. Spells that deal damage, and have another effect.

Objects automatically save vs. Shadow Evocation, and so all spells from case 2 have no effect against objects, eg. so Shadow Wind Wall will have no effect on incoming arrows. Objects will therefore take 20% damage from the spells in case 1. Furthermore, if a spell deals damage, and has another effect, like Battering Ram(SpC), it would deal 20% damage against the object, and have 20% chance of the other effect happening. (bull rush in the case of Batting Ram).

@Mesi -- The fighter would still need to save to disbelieve.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I stand corrected.

Shadow Evocation has two possible choices:

1. A spell that deals damage
2. A spell that deals no damage.

Furthermore, 1. is split into

1.a. Spells that deal only damage.
1.b. Spells that deal damage, and have another effect.

Objects automatically save vs. Shadow Evocation, and so all spells from case 2 have no effect against objects, eg. so Shadow Wind Wall will have no effect on incoming arrows. Objects will therefore take 20% damage from the spells in case 1. Furthermore, if a spell deals damage, and has another effect, like Battering Ram(SpC), it would deal 20% damage against the object, and have 20% chance of the other effect happening. (bull rush in the case of Batting Ram).

@Mesi -- The fighter would still need to save to disbelieve.

Sweet, I can still trap people. Note of contension, most rider effects from evocation spells wouldn't affect objects in most cases anyways. I'm not even sure you could Bull Rush an object.

Of course with Shadow-cheese, you can get real-ness at or above %100, even objects will treat it as normal as its completly real.

[dextercorvia]

Sweet, I can still trap people. Note of contension, most rider effects from evocation spells wouldn't affect objects in most cases anyways. I'm not even sure you could Bull Rush an object.

Of course with Shadow-cheese, you can get real-ness at or above %100, even objects will treat it as normal as its completly real.

I had to go digging in the SpC to find Battering Ram, because it does let you make a strength check to move an object (although on my second reading, it distinguishes this from the bull rush option).

Actually it doesn't matter how real it is if it doesn't deal damage, objects will always disbelieve, and therefore not be subject to the effect.

[Madcrafter]

For non-attended objects though, it doesn't matter if they automatically succeed on their saving throws, since they don't get a saving throw in the first place.

[Malachei]

This may help:


Shadows are a special case. A shadow is partly real and can affect an object just as anything real can. Shadow spells that have a reduced effect when disbelieved generally have reduced effects against objects because objects can't believe them. Check the description of the shadow spell in question to be sure. For example, objects automatically are assumed to make their saving throws against the various shadow conjuration and shadow evocation spells presented in the Player's Handbook. In other cases, follow the rules for object saving throws against spells (in most cases an unattended, nonmagical object doesn't get a saving throw against a spell).

[MesiDoomstalker]

For non-attended objects though, it doesn't matter if they automatically succeed on their saving throws, since they don't get a saving throw in the first place.

I think this is a case of specific trumps general. Unattented objects normally don't even get a chance to save but with Shadow Evocation they get to succeed on the save even if they wouldn't normally recieve one.

[Madcrafter]

Thanks Malachei, that's is what I was looking for. They still could have worded it little better in the spell IMO, since as written, it definitely could be (and by RAW would be) seen as not affecting objects.

[Treblain]

Give an ally the object to hold, throw them on top of the floating disc, and tell them to voluntarily fail the save to disbelieve. Ah, the wonders of self-deception. :smalltongue:

[Elric VIII]

Well, I was thinking about playing a mostly non-com toolbox wizard and I kind of wanted to dabble in infiltration. I was going to be a domain wizard and take the illusion domain, but it seems that shadow evocation is basically a dead slot for me.

What can you do with this spell that is useful and not Shadowcraft Mage?

[Madcrafter]

Affect people? It is still a fairly versatile spell for the slot, you probably wouldn't go amiss preparing one.

[Elric VIII]

Affect people? It is still a fairly versatile spell for the slot, you probably wouldn't go amiss preparing one.

Well, what spells would you recommend with it?

Damage spells seem bad, since then I have SR: yes, spell with two chances to save.

Force spells become particularly bad since they're already a higher level than most counterpards due to their nearly-impervious nature, and I'm casting them with an even higher slot due to Shadow Evocation.


Greater SE is nice for Contingency on someone that banned Evocation, but normal SE seems lacking.

[Emperor Tippy]

The reason to take Shadow Evocation is to fill in for all of those various evocations that are useful in certain situations but that you would never actually prepare without knowing that such a situation was going to arise.

A scroll of Greater Shadow Evocation and Shades should be kept handy by every high level wizard (even if you don't memorize them on a daily basis). Those two scrolls effectively give you 2 complete schools of magic that you can use at will. Combined with Spontaneous Divination and it's three schools covered.

[Elric VIII]

The reason to take Shadow Evocation is to fill in for all of those various evocations that are useful in certain situations but that you would never actually prepare without knowing that such a situation was going to arise.

A scroll of Greater Shadow Evocation and Shades should be kept handy by every high level wizard (even if you don't memorize them on a daily basis). Those two scrolls effectively give you 2 complete schools of magic that you can use at will. Combined with Spontaneous Divination and it's three schools covered.

I'm on board with Shades/Shadow Conjuration, those are great and I plan to have both.

I'm just not seeing anything terribly useful in 4th or lower Evocation. Honestly, all I'm seeing is adding an additional save to BFC that is done better by Conjuration anyway, or damage spells. The thing that really gets me is that I would be able to use it as my own personal landscaping tools due to the clause about not working on objects.

As I said, I would really like some suggestions of spells to use with it.

[Yuki Akuma]

Sorcerer/Wizard (core-only because I'm lazy) Evocations (4th level and lower) that can be useful in the right circumstances but you likely won't prepare because you're not omniscient:

Cantrips: Dancing Lights/Light

1st: Floating Disk

2nd: Darkness, (Possibly Shatter although apparently it doesn't work so eh)

3rd: Daylight, Tiny Hut, Wind Wall

4th: Wall of Ice (Wall of Fire can be useful, too, but the damage isn't too great when it's Shadowed so there's little keeping your enemies from going through it fi they realise it's not absolutely real).

Of course, the best Evocation spell is Contingency, but that's level 6.

[Elric VIII]

Sorcerer/Wizard (core-only because I'm lazy) Evocations (4th level and lower) that can be useful in the right circumstances but you likely won't prepare because you're not omniscient:

Cantrips: Dancing Lights/Light

1st: Floating Disk

2nd: Darkness, (Possibly Shatter although apparently it doesn't work so eh)

3rd: Daylight, Tiny Hut, Wind Wall

4th: Wall of Ice (Wall of Fire can be useful, too, but the damage isn't too great when it's Shadowed so there's little keeping your enemies from going through it fi they realise it's not absolutely real).

Of course, the best Evocation spell is Contingency, but that's level 6.

Here's the problem I had, with the exception of the hut, none of those work very well at all. Darkness/Daylight is okay, especially if you can guarantee your allies will be making the save vs belief (something like a special preestablished keyword phrase when you begin casting).

Wind wall, Wall of Ice, and Disk are mostly useless, as those in this thread have pointed out.

[Malachei]

While it is a powerful, versatile tactics, there also are some challenges if you duplicate Evocation/Conjuration through Shadow spells:

Shadow magic's percentage chance of failure or partial effect is an inhibitor
You can't fail your will save against your own illusion

[nedz]

I had to go digging in the SpC to find Battering Ram, because it does let you make a strength check to move an object (although on my second reading, it distinguishes this from the bull rush option).

Actually it doesn't matter how real it is if it doesn't deal damage, objects will always disbelieve, and therefore not be subject to the effect.

Battering Ram does 1d6 damage.

More generally

SpC offers many more options for ShEvo, actually it has many very situational evocations so it is much better - since you now have the flexibilty to choose them on the fly.
But yeah: Conjuration > Evocation so no suprises here when it comes to the shadow versions.

[nedz]

I think this is a fairly complete list of the spells which are, on paper, eligible. YMMV with some of these however.
Eligible Shadow Conjurations
{table=head]1st|2nd|3rd|4th
PH|||
Grease|Fog Cloud|Phantom Steed|
Mount|Glitterdust|Sepia Snake Sigil|
Obscuring Mist|Melf's Acid Arrow|Sleet Storm|
Unseen Servant|Summon Swarm|Stinking Cloud|
|Web|Summon Monster III|
SpC|||
Buzzing Bee|Cloud of Bewilderment|Acid Breath|
Corrosive Grasp|Ice Knife|Contageous fog|
Hail of Stone|Inky Cloud|Corpse Candle|
Orb of <*>, lesser|Malevolent Miasma|Ice Lance|
Wall of Smoke||Nauseating Breath|
||Regal Procession|
||Servant Horde|
||Summon Undead III|
CMage|||
Resinous Tar|Incendiary Slime|Caustc Smoke|
[/table]

Eligible Shadow Evocations
{table=head]1st|2nd|3rd|4th
PH|||
Burning Hands|Continual Flame|Daylight|Fireshield
Magic Missile|Darkness|Fireball|Ice Storm
Shocking Grasp|Flaming Sphere|Leomund's Tiny Hut|Otiluke's Res Sphere
Tensor's Floating Disk|Gust of Wind|Lightning Bolt|Shout
|Scorching Ray|Windwall|Wall of Fire
|Shatter||Wall of Ice
SpC|||
Blood Wind|Battering Ram|Blacklight|Blistering Radience
Guiding Light|Blast of Force|Blade of Fear and Pain|Defenstrating Sphere
Ice Dagger|Burning Sword|Capricious Zephyr|Dragon Breath
Luminous Gaze|Combust|Chain Missile|Energy Spheres
Persistant Blade|Electric Loop|Flashburst|Explosive Cascade
Ray of Flame|Ethereal Chamber|Glowing Orb|Floating Disk, Greater
Sonic Blast|Fireburst|Great Thunderclap|Force Chest
Thunderhead|Flame Dagger|Hailstones|Force Claw
|Force Ladder|Rainbow Blast|Force Missiles
|Frost Breath|Resonating Bolt|Forcewave
|Rainbow Beam|Scintellating Sphere|Stone Sphere
|Ray of Ice|Shatterfloor|Sword of Deception
|Scorch|Sound Lance|Thunderlance
|Slapping Hand|Wall of Light|Vortex of Teeth
|Snowball Swarm||Wingbird
|Veil of Shadows||
CMage|||
Dawnburst|||
Jet of Steam|Luminous Swarm|Ghost Lantern|Incendiary Surge
[/table]

[Elric VIII]

While it is a powerful, versatile tactics, there also are some challenges if you duplicate Evocation/Conjuration through Shadow spells:

Shadow magic's percentage chance of failure or partial effect is an inhibitor
That's kinda why I started the thread. :smallamused:

QUOTE=Malachei;12244085] You can't fail your will save against your own illusion
[/QUOTE]



*snip*

Oh, hey, thanks.

[Malachei]

That's kinda why I started the thread. :smallamused:

QUOTE=Malachei;12244085] You can't fail your will save against your own illusion


Well, it's been disputed many times. Your OP addressed the issue of interacting with objects. But often people expect they can duplicate the entire schools without issues, for instance when it comes to buffing themselves, and pass the inhibitor (failure chance) by failing their will saves.

For Greater Shadow Evocation, Howling Chain may be an interesting choice. Moonbow, perhaps. For Greater Shadow Conjuration, Freezing Fog comes to mind (all in SpC).

[Elric VIII]

Well, it's been disputed many times. Your OP addressed the issue of interacting with objects. But often people expect they can duplicate the entire schools without issues, for instance when it comes to buffing themselves, and pass the inhibitor (failure chance) by failing their will saves.

For Greater Shadow Evocation, Howling Chain may be an interesting choice. Moonbow, perhaps. For Greater Shadow Conjuration, Freezing Fog comes to mind (all in SpC).

That was a delete fail on my part. While I don't particularly disagree with the quoted quote, the lack of explicit forbiddance along with the argument of partial-reality makes it a very DM-based call.

[Malachei]

Ah, sorry, I didn't know. Regarding the quoted quote, that's actually clarified in Rules of the Game Article: All About Illusions. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060221a)


According to the Player's Handbook, if you're faced with proof that an illusion isn't real, you disbelieve the illusion without making a saving throw. (...) The rules don't say so, but if you create an illusion that allows a saving throw for disbelief, you automatically disbelieve it (you know it isn't real because you created it).

I think that's pretty clear, as the save against shadow spells is a Will disbelief.

[ILM]

Doesn't that mean that Shadow Contingencies don't work?

[Malachei]

They're 60% likely to work.

[ILM]

They're 60% likely to work.
They're evocations, and nondamaging effects have no effect if disbelieved - and you automatically disbelieve your own ilusions, so...

[Malachei]

That seems correct.

And wonderful, just wonderful because it solves a long issue. But why are so many people still using Shadow Evoked Contingencies? I think it is even in one of the handbooks (not sure if and which). I guess some assume the caster can voluntarily fail the save, whereas the quoted text says you can't because you auto-succeed, knowing better.

[ILM]

That seems correct.

And wonderful, just wonderful because it solves a long issue. But why are so many people still using Shadow Evoked Contingencies? I think it is even in one of the handbooks (not sure if and which). I guess some assume the caster can voluntarily fail the save, whereas the quoted text says you can't because you auto-succeed, knowing better.
In their defense (mine too, up to now) that text from the articles is not RAW; It's not even a FAQ. But yeah, it makes total sense.

[Malachei]

I always thought that it would be a bit much to allow two spells to cover two schools (give and take). So we've always played it that way. Back when I found the article, that was further confirmation. But I've overlooked the last sentence of the spell description, which makes it even better, because now we can do without adjudicating %-chances of affecting people for the non-damaging spells.

[ILM]

I always thought that it would be a bit much to allow two spells to cover two schools (give and take). So we've always played it that way. Back when I found the article, that was further confirmation. But I've overlooked the last sentence of the spell description, which makes it even better, because now we can do without adjudicating %-chances of affecting people for the non-damaging spells.
Note that shadow conj has no such text. In fact quite the opposite:
Shadow conjurations are actually one-fifth (20%) as strong as the real things, though creatures who believe the shadow conjurations to be real are affected by them at full strength.

[Malachei]

Yes, but that's not an issue. Conjuration is rarely a banned school, and the spells have mostly been used to Shadow Evoke Contingency (and justify banning Evocation).

[nedz]

Yes, but that's not an issue. Conjuration is rarely a banned school, and the spells have mostly been used to Shadow Evoke Contingency(and justify banning Evocation).
FTFY ?
..........................

[Chronos]

Wall of Fire is actually really good, for a situation where you're facing a huge army of low-level grunts (think the Battle of Azure City). It's got a very large area of effect, so you can fry a bunch of them right away, and then it cuts the battlefield in half. Even a disbelieved shadow version still does enough damage to kill most first-levels.

[nedz]

One thing thats always bugged me about Shadow Evocation is this:
Empower Magic Missile is a fourth level Evocation spell.
Can I use Shadow Evocation to create this ?

Of more interest are the situational meta-magics e.g. can I do a Transdimensional Fireball ?

I'm guessing not, but RAW seems silent.

[Chronos]

The RAW is, as you say, silent, but I think a reasonable ruling would be that you could cast a metamagicked version of a spell if the adjusted level was low enough and you have the feat.

[Malachei]

One thing thats always bugged me about Shadow Evocation is this:
Empower Magic Missile is a fourth level Evocation spell.
Can I use Shadow Evocation to create this ?

Of more interest are the situational meta-magics e.g. can I do a Transdimensional Fireball ?

I'm guessing not, but RAW seems silent.

No, because Shadow Evocation duplicates a spell only. Emp. MM is not a spell. MM is.

[nedz]

The RAW is, as you say, silent, but I think a reasonable ruling would be that you could cast a metamagicked version of a spell if the adjusted level was low enough and you have the feat.
That would probably be my take on it too.

No, because Shadow Evocation duplicates a spell only. Emp. MM is not a spell. MM is.
But an Evocation specialist Wizard can learn EmpMM in their 4th level slot reserved for Evocation spells.

ED:sp

[Malachei]

Yes, but it is not a spell. It is a metamagic-enhanced spell.

[Yuki Akuma]

But an Evocation specialist Wizard can learn EmpMM in their 4th level slot reserved for Evocation spells.

ED:sp

...And?

Just cast Empowered Shadow Evocation, sheesh. :smalltongue:

[Emperor Tippy]

No, you can't metamagic through a Shadow Evocation unless you are a sorcerer.

Wizards apply meta when they prepare a spell, Shadow Evocation doesn't qualify for most of the meta because it doesn't 1) deal damage, or 2) have a variable numeric effect.

Sorcerers could arguably do it as they apply meta as the spell is cast, but that's DM adjudication.

You could also arguably use Shadow Evocation to apply any meta in the game (even that which you don't know or qualify for personally) to a spell.
"Nope, I'm using Shadow Evocation to replicate an Invisible, Sanctum, cooperative, fell drain, maximized, empowered Arcane Thesis: Magic Missile" That's technically a first level Evocation.

[Malachei]

No, you can't metamagic through a Shadow Evocation unless you are a sorcerer.

Wizards apply meta when they prepare a spell, Shadow Evocation doesn't qualify for most of the meta because it doesn't 1) deal damage, or 2) have a variable numeric effect.

Sorcerers could arguably do it as they apply meta as the spell is cast, but that's DM adjudication.

I'd say you can prepare and cast a metamagic-enhanced Shadow Evocation. First, it always has V, S components, so you could Silent or Still Spell it. Also, the spell text says range, effect and duration: see text -- because they are effectively those of the duplicated spell. IMO, if you prepared an Extended Shadow Evocation, the spell you duplicated would be extended if it qualified for it, etc.


You could also arguably use Shadow Evocation to apply any meta in the game (even that which you don't know or qualify for personally) to a spell.
"Nope, I'm using Shadow Evocation to replicate an Invisible, Sanctum, cooperative, fell drain, maximized, empowered Arcane Thesis: Magic Missile" That's technically a first level Evocation.

I think this is wrong. From the Q&A:


Can I apply the Innate Spell feat to a spell improved by another metamagic feat?
No. Innate Spell applies only to actual spells, not to spells affected by metamagic feats and the like. Just because you’re capable of applying, say, the Empower Spell feat to a fireball spell, that doesn’t make “empowered fireball” a spell. The spell is still “fireball” and thus Innate Spell applies only to the normal version of that spell.

[Emperor Tippy]

FAQ is not now, nor has it ever been, RAW.

[Elric VIII]

FAQ is not now, nor has it ever been, RAW.

I think this should be included in the FAQ for clarification.


So, you guys have convinced me that Shadow Evocation isn't that useless, especially if I get creative with it. Thank you.

[Fouredged Sword]

I have found it great for giving monsters a headache. Cast a illusionary wall of some kind and shoot through it as arrows ignore the wall. Blast foes without worrying over much about destroying the area around you. (had a dm destroy the bridge we where on after a high rolling fireball)

[Cerlis]

Emphasis, mine.


What does this even mean

[Dragonsoul]

Of course there is the joy of the Shadow evocation Wall of Stone floor.. the trap that Kills those that pass the will save (Assumes it's suspended over a pit of lava with Lava Sharks)

[nedz]

Of course there is the joy of the Shadow evocation Wall of Stone floor.. the trap that Kills those that pass the will save (Assumes it's suspended over a pit of lava with Lava Sharks)

I thought that we had established that this didn't work because the spell doesn't do damage ?

[Malachei]

If disbelieved. This was about the caster and everyone else who has proof that it is not a real effect.

[Dragonsoul]

I thought that we had established that this didn't work because the spell doesn't do damage ?

It works on people just fine(80% of the time)..though in theory the soles of there boots sink through the floor.

[Fouredged Sword]

This would make for an interesting effect, as manufactured weapons and armor should have little to no effect on all non numeric effects.

Also, what of intelligent items? Can they auto pass their saves and tell thier owners?

[Elric VIII]

I have found it great for giving monsters a headache. Cast a illusionary wall of some kind and shoot through it as arrows ignore the wall. Blast foes without worrying over much about destroying the area around you. (had a dm destroy the bridge we where on after a high rolling fireball)


This would make for an interesting effect, as manufactured weapons and armor should have little to no effect on all non numeric effects.

Also, what of intelligent items? Can they auto pass their saves and tell thier owners?

The problem with a wall of any sort is that as soon as something attacks it with a non-natural weapon that have proof it's not real. I suppose it buys a turn. They would be useful against mindless creatures.


What does this even mean

It means I'm emphasizing a particular part of the quoted text. In this case I'm noting that the bolded part is the main subject of the thread but I'm including the entire thing for reference. Thank you for your contribution.

[Kantolin]

The problem with a wall of any sort is that as soon as something attacks it with a non-natural weapon that have proof it's not real. I suppose it buys a turn. They would be useful against mindless creatures.

I'd personally make it an smoky wall gas and/or obscuring mist. That way, their arrows passing through it make sense. Plus, if people start getting snarky and presuming things are illusions, you can always cast a real obscuring mist and actually block people's sight. Or do both of these things.

That's also my defense if my creating illusory walls causes creatures to mysteriously start whacking walls to solve them. I start mixing in the occasional fully real wall.

[Elric VIII]

I'd personally make it an smoky wall gas and/or obscuring mist. That way, their arrows passing through it make sense. Plus, if people start getting snarky and presuming things are illusions, you can always cast a real obscuring mist and actually block people's sight. Or do both of these things.

That's also my defense if my creating illusory walls causes creatures to mysteriously start whacking walls to solve them. I start mixing in the occasional fully real wall.

Well, that is Conjuration. I'm mostly interested in Evocation, because of the Illusion domain for Wizards. I'm looking for worthwhile strategies for the spell.

[nedz]

I'll assume your aware of ShadowCheese - though thats a seperate topic, covered by many existing threads.

Flexibility really - there are lots of situational evocations which you might want to cover. I've been looking at this from a Sorceror PoV for sometime for this reason. I'm still not entirely sold on ShEvo though.

ShConj is another matter - much more useful.

ED: sp

[Malachei]

The obvious solution, of course, is the Killer Gnome.

[Chronos]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that replicating an entire school of magic is worthwhile, even if it is the weakest school and it's only partially real. Sure, you might not know in advance what you'll use it for, but you're sure to find some use for it when the time comes.

Then again, I'm also the sort who, in real life, carries around three different multi-function tools on my person every day. I like Swiss army knives.