Tome of battle newbie questions

[hushblade]

I just got myself a copy of the tome of battle, and I'm a bit unclear on some things.

I think my question would best be served by asking a hypothetical question.

1. If I were a warblade 10 and took swordsage 1 for my next level, would I have a different initiator level for both classes(10 for warblade, 6 for swordsage) or would I have 1 initiator level for both classes(11)

2. Would both classes need to keep track of their own maneuvers/stances ect, or would they all be usable as a warblade(for the one swift action recovery)[hoping for a nice detailed explanation(tell me like I'm a 5 year old or something) as to how those would work multiclassed since I'm totally clueless.] My instinct is that I would simply have 8 maneuvers known as a warblade subject to its swift action recovery, and 6 known as a swordsage, recovered by 1 per full round action.

[Greenish]

1. IL progressions are separate. You'd have warblade IL and swordsage IL (which you correctly calculated).

2. Maneuvers are kept track of separately, but I believe you can't learn the same maneuvers on both "sides", nor ready one more than once. I might be in error on that, though.

[Morbis Meh]

1. Your initiator level would vary between the two, eg you would be a 10th level initiator for warblade and sixth for seordsage.
2. You keep separate track of your maneuvers for each class because each will have ro apply their recovery mechanic to their maneuvers (no swift action to regain SS maneuvers).

[KillianHawkeye]

It's just as kinda like if a Wizard 10 multiclassed into Sorcerer. Totally Mostly seperate.

[Lateral]

It's just as if a Wizard 10 multiclassed into Sorcerer. Totally seperate.

Well, mostly. IIRC, your Warblade maneuvers would still let you qualify for Swordsage maneuvers.

[Chronos]

And you can also still only use one stance at a time (unless you get some class feature that lets you use multiple, in which case you can mix and match).

[Malachei]

Well, mostly. IIRC, your Warblade maneuvers would still let you qualify for Swordsage maneuvers.

Yes, they do (official FAQ).

But you can't have a maneuver twice, and readying and recovery is handled separately.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

But you can't have a maneuver twice
You mean "at all" or "only one per martial class"?

[Amphetryon]

You mean "at all" or "only one per martial class"?

If I recall the official FAQ correctly, "at all" is the right answer. Can't learn the same Stone Dragon maneuver as both a Crusader and a Warblade, assuming you multiclassed them.

[Malachei]

Amphetryon is right.


Q: Can you know the same maneuvers (from Tome of Battle) more than once? Can you ready the same maneuver more than once at a time? A: Actually no, you cannot learn the same maneuvers more than once, nor can you ready the same maneuver more than once at a time.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Well, mostly. IIRC, your Warblade maneuvers would still let you qualify for Swordsage maneuvers.

Only for the pre-requisite maneuvers, he still would need to have the appropiate Initiator level.

[Lateral]

Only for the pre-requisite maneuvers, he still would need to have the appropiate Initiator level.

Well, of course. I didn't think that needed to be said.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The Op did ask to explain everything as thoroughly as possible.

[hushblade]

3. And I presume a martial adept prestige only applies to 1 of them?

[The-Mage-King]

3. And I presume a martial adept prestige only applies to 1 of them?

Yep. Which is why if you manage to get into, say, Master of Nine as a Warblade primary, you win, due to being able to grab the best combination of boosts and strikes and use the Warblade recovery mechanic.

[hushblade]

One last question, if one dipped into swordsage for a level or two to pick up some pre-req maneuvers for a higher maneuver or stance in a swordsage discipline, could you use martial study/stance to learn it as a warblade with the higher initiator level and better recovery mechanic?

[sonofzeal]

One last question, if one dipped into swordsage for a level or two to pick up some pre-req maneuvers for a higher maneuver or stance in a swordsage discipline, could you use martial study/stance to learn it as a warblade with the higher initiator level and better recovery mechanic?
I don't see anything preventing this.

[Malachei]

One last question, if one dipped into swordsage for a level or two to pick up some pre-req maneuvers for a higher maneuver or stance in a swordsage discipline, could you use martial study/stance to learn it as a warblade with the higher initiator level and better recovery mechanic?

I don't see anything preventing this.

sonofzeal is right. Here's the relevant part from the Q&A, which may be useful to you:


Q: Another multiclass question. Can a multiclassed martial adept (eg. Swordsage/Warblade) choose/and or ready the same maneuver for each of it's classes (provided you have access to the same maneuver)? And if you gain a maneuver in one class, can you use it as a prerequisite in gaining a maneuver in the other class? A: No, you can only ever learn/ready a maneuver once. If you gain a maneuver in one class it can indeed fulfill prerequisites in another class! (emphasis mine)

[Fortuna]

Yep. Which is why if you manage to get into, say, Master of Nine as a Warblade primary, you win, due to being able to grab the best combination of boosts and strikes and use the Warblade recovery mechanic.

Isn't Crusader primary even better? Warblades burn actions, Crusaders don't.

[Amphetryon]

Isn't Crusader primary even better? Warblades burn actions, Crusaders don't.

There's a vocal minority, at least, that prefers the non-random acquisition of maneuvers inherent in the Warblade mechanic to the random one of Crusader, T_G's old set theory analysis on 339 notwithstanding.

[Malachei]

A Prestige Class adds maneuvers readied to the recovery mechanic, and for Crusaders, this means it adds to their maneuvers granted, as well (p. 96). In that regard, Crusader can really bloom, because the chance of not having available your desired maneuvers at the start of the encounter drops.

[hushblade]

Oh damn, looks like I have one more Q

MARTIAL STANCE


[GENERAL]

You have mastered the fundamentals of a martial discipline, and you are now able to master one of its stances.

Prerequisite: One martial maneuver

Benefit: When you gain this feat, you can select any stance from a discipline in which you already know at least one maneuver. You must meet the normal prerequisite of the stance. Your martial adept level for using this maneuver is equal to your levels in martial adept classes (if any) + 1/2 your levels in other classes.

Special: Y'ou can choose this feat more than once. When you take this teat again, you gain knowledge of a new stance. Y'ou do not have to choose a stance from the same discipline you selected the first time, but you must know at least one martial maneuver from the discipline of the stance you choose.|||A fighter can select Martial Stance as a bonus feat

by RAW, does this mean a multi-classing martial adept could learn a level 8 stance earlier than would be possible through leveling up since this feat is worded in a way such that makes your initiator level the total of your martial adept class levels?
continuing with the warblade dipping into swordsage example, could a warblade13/swordsage2 learn a level 8 stance they meet the pre-reqs for?

[Quietus]

Oh damn, looks like I have one more Q


by RAW, does this mean a multi-classing martial adept could learn a level 8 stance earlier than would be possible through leveling up since this feat is worded in a way such that makes your initiator level the total of your martial adept class levels?
continuing with the warblade dipping into swordsage example, could a warblade13/swordsage2 learn a level 8 stance they meet the pre-reqs for?

Earlier than possible, no. A Warblade15 and a Warblade13/Swordsage2 would both qualify for a level 8 stance via Martial Stance, as both have a total of 15 levels in Initiator classes. The only question is if you meet the stance's prerequisites.

[Douglas]

3. And I presume a martial adept prestige only applies to 1 of them?
Actually, martial adept PrCs apply full initiator level to all classes at once. The maneuvers known and readied do have to be assigned to individual classes, though.

[hushblade]

Earlier than possible through leveling up assuming you're already multiclassed anyway.

[Big Fau]

Earlier than possible, no. A Warblade15 and a Warblade13/Swordsage2 would both qualify for a level 8 stance via Martial Stance, as both have a total of 15 levels in Initiator classes. The only question is if you meet the stance's prerequisites.

Um, the second example has an IL of 14 for Warblade and 8 for Swordsage. Last I checked, that didn't qualify for 8th level maneuvers.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Um, the second example has an IL of 14 for Warblade and 8 for Swordsage. Last I checked, that didn't qualify for 8th level maneuvers.

It's due to the wording of Martial Study.

[Lateral]

Isn't Crusader primary even better? Warblades burn actions, Crusaders don't.

Technically, yeah, but some people prefer the Warblade mechanic for simplicity and being able to recover all maneuvers at once instead of randomly. Crusaders certainly have a better mechanic, but I personally prefer Warblades. (Not to mention that I prefer Warblades' concept better, but that's a whole different pile of worms.)

[Malachei]

You may also want to look at the "Tome of Battle for Dummies" Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871270/Tome_of_Battle_for_Dummies).

I think it answers many questions that may come up.

IMO, Tome of Battle is a wonderful book, one of the best WOTC made for 3.5 Unfortunately, it is also one of the least-edited and worst-worded books, and because it came so late in 3.5, WOTC never issued official errata (well, they did, but that included a copy & paste error and after a few sentences, the ToB errata stopped and the text continued with errata for another book (Complete Mage?). They never fixed the error. There is, however, an Unofficial Errata on BG. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=13292.0) I don't agree with every interpretation, but still, it's a big step ahead.

[BlackestOfMages]

Isn't Crusader primary even better? Warblades burn actions, Crusaders don't.

depends, crusadersd get them back when they've used all of their manouvers, hich is usefull, but arblade can get them back when they feel they need them, which for something like Mo9 (and their umpteen billion manouvers known/redied) could get bad since you can only ready each one once, and crusader has to wait to use it again, whereas some manouvers you'd want more often and not have to cycle through some that could be seen as filler in the situation.

[Malachei]

The primary issue with Warblades, IMO, is the relatively small number of maneuvers readied. So unless you dip another class or enter a PrC that raises readied maneuvers, you'll be limited, which will show in the ability to ready counters, especially (the save-covering counters, for instance).

Of course, it has the best capstone at level 20, and it is always a strong melee combatant. I think none of the ToB classes are in need of a fix. Even the Swordsage, often considered the weakest of the three base classes in ToB can be a great character (maybe giving him Adaptive Style for free, because with the terrible recovery mechanic, the feat is a must and effectively a feat-tax for an already feat-strained class) -- well, a better ninja than the ninja, at least.

[Douglas]

depends, crusadersd get them back when they've used all of their manouvers, hich is usefull, but arblade can get them back when they feel they need them, which for something like Mo9 (and their umpteen billion manouvers known/redied) could get bad since you can only ready each one once, and crusader has to wait to use it again, whereas some manouvers you'd want more often and not have to cycle through some that could be seen as filler in the situation.
Crusaders do not recovery maneuvers when they've used them all, they recover maneuvers when they've been granted them all - which happens every 4 (or 3 with Extra Granted Maneuver) rounds no matter what you do. Use a strike, boost, and move-action maneuver every single round? Maneuvers refresh after 3 or 4 rounds. Use no maneuvers at all and just full attack every round? Maneuvers still refresh after 3 or 4 rounds.

With Master of Nine's huge number of maneuvers readied, you can just ignore the ones that happen to be filler in your particular situation and you'll probably have enough applicable ones to last through the cycle anyway.

[Talionis]

Actually, martial adept PrCs apply full initiator level to all classes at once. The maneuvers known and readied do have to be assigned to individual classes, though.

Yeah, this is right. If you have a Warblade 8, Swordsage 4, Eternal Blade 2.

If you next level is:

Warblade it has an iniator level 13 (Warblade 9+Swordsage 4+Eternal Blade2)
Swordsage it has an iniator level of 11 (Warblade 8+Swordsage 5+Eternal Blade 2)
Eternal Blade it has an iniator level of 15 (Warblade 8+Swordsage 4+Eternal Blade 3)

Eternal Blade would have to assign each manuever it takes to either use Warblade or Swordsage lists for recovery. But multi-classing in more than one primary class can help you have many more available maneuvers.

Edit: Fixed a couple numbers

[Malachei]

I don't want to nitpick, just for ease of use and FYI, you're using 9th level and 8th level Warblade in the same calculation. And Swordsage 4 and 5.

[Douglas]

Yeah, this is right. If you have a Warblade 8, Swordsage 4, Eternal Blade 2.

If you next level is:

Warblade it has an iniator level 13 (Warblade 9+Swordsage 2+Eternal Blade2)
Swordsage it has an iniator level of 11 (Warblade 4+Swordsage 5+Eternal Blade 2)
Eternal Blade it has an iniator level of 15 (Warblade 8+Swordsage 4+Eternal Blade 3)

Eternal Blade would have to assign each manuever it takes to either use Warblade or Swordsage lists for recovery. But multi-classing in more than one primary class can help you have many more available maneuvers.
Eternal Blade does not have its own initiator level at all, so no taking a 3rd level of EB would not get you IL 15. A Warblade 8/Swordsage 4/Eternal Blade 3 has two initiator levels - 13 for Warblade and 11 for Swordsage. Whether he can choose a new 7th level maneuver or is limited to only 6th depends on whether he is adding that maneuver to Warblade or to Swordsage. He cannot choose an 8th level maneuver.

[Thurbane]

I have a ToB related question: the Arcadian Avenger (MM5) advances as a Crusader, and considers Crusader an associated class. However, unlike the monsters in the back of ToB, it does not make any special mention of it's racial hit dice (Outsider 8) counting towards Initiator levels...does this mean it's IL would only be 4 + Crusader levels?

[Chronos]

Quoth Malachei:


IMO, Tome of Battle is a wonderful book, one of the best WOTC made for 3.5 Unfortunately, it is also one of the least-edited and worst-worded books,Hey, at least it's not Complete Psionic. I don't think there's anything in that book that works like it's supposed to.

And I don't actually think that Adaptive Style helps a swordsage as much as it's made out to. Sure, the Swordsage recovery mechanic sucks, but using Adaptive Style as a recovery mechanic sucks nearly as much. If you actually manage to use up all of your useful maneuvers in a fight, you're probably better off just finishing the fight with your normal attacks (plus stance), rather than burning a whole round on recovering them.

[Malachei]

I have a ToB related question: the Arcadian Avenger (MM5) advances as a Crusader, and considers Crusader an associated class. However, unlike the monsters in the back of ToB, it does not make any special mention of it's racial hit dice (Outsider 8) counting towards Initiator levels...does this mean it's IL would only be 4 + Crusader levels?

I'd say so, yes, because it is not a Prestige Class. Btw, even some of the Prestige Classes in ToB don't advance initiator level.


If you actually manage to use up all of your useful maneuvers in a fight, you're probably better off just finishing the fight with your normal attacks (plus stance), rather than burning a whole round on recovering them.

I'd politely disagree. In some fights, you just need the counters. And if you use a strike, and a boost or counter every round, you'll burn through maneuvers really quickly. Of course, there are other fights, as well.

[Talionis]

Eternal Blade does not have its own initiator level at all, so no taking a 3rd level of EB would not get you IL 15. A Warblade 8/Swordsage 4/Eternal Blade 3 has two initiator levels - 13 for Warblade and 11 for Swordsage. Whether he can choose a new 7th level maneuver or is limited to only 6th depends on whether he is adding that maneuver to Warblade or to Swordsage. He cannot choose an 8th level maneuver.

Fighter 10 Eternal Blade 2 is possible. Eternal Blade has an iniator level of 7in this case.

ToB Prestige Classes that advance iniator levels do have their own iniator level, just no recovery mechanic.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Fighter 10 Eternal Blade 2 is possible. Eternal Blade has an iniator level of 7in this case.

ToB Prestige Classes that advance iniator levels do have their own iniator level, just no recovery mechanic.

No, it's advancing fighter initiator level, just at a different rate.

[Talionis]

No, it's advancing fighter initiator level, just at a different rate.

Got the book out and re-read it. You are right.

[deuxhero]

And you can also still only use one stance at a time (unless you get some class feature that lets you use multiple, in which case you can mix and match).

Isn't that feature a capstone?

[hushblade]

A warblade capstone, a lesser(limited by rounds) class feature of Mo9