Repeating Crossbows.....

[Elboxo]

So it says you draw the lever to reload one of the 5 bolts into the 'chamber' as a free action, so you can shoot 5 times in a round?

Any ideas/builds that make use of this anyone has? Like sneak attack or something? I think it could be quite cool

[TroubleBrewing]

You can reload it as a free action.

Shooting it still requires an attack.

[Madcrafter]

It really just makes it into a bow that you then have to spend a long time reloading every once in a while. A regular bow is for the most part better. That is why you don't see them very often.

EDIT: Ninjas!

[Flickerdart]

There are better ways of auto-reloading crossbows (such as Rapid Reload, for one, and then there are enchantments and spells for it).

[Eldariel]

Heavy has some redeeming qualities. Light has none. In both cases you're better with Rapid Reload on basic chassis and higher up for e.g. two-handing, with Ghostly Reload spell, Quick-Loading property, Extra Hand magic item, Glove of Storing magic item or some such. Repeating Light is 100% useless, Repeating Heavy is 99% useless. The feat you gotta pay for them could be used for e.g. Rapid Reload instead.

[Elboxo]

Oh okay thanks, just wondering about the whole free-action reloading...
That makes it kind of... lame.... then. :/

[Elboxo]

Oh okay thanks, just wondering about the whole free-action reloading...
That makes it kind of... lame.... then. :/

[TroubleBrewing]

That makes it kind of... lame.... then. :/

Yep. That is indeed the case.

[deuxhero]

Repeating crossbow's stats as exotic is just plain bizzare. It's only pentalty for non-proficiency is an accuracy hit and you aim the exact same way...

[Flickerdart]

It makes perfect sense. The difference between a normal and a repeating crossbow isn't the reload method, it's the reload speed - EWP Repeating Crossbow trains you to make quick shots with it while simultaneously keeping it trained on your target. If you're bad at it, you suffer the -4 because your aim keeps breaking when you reload. It makes far more sense than -4 for wielding a two-bladed sword does, because nonproficiency with that means you've killed yourself.

[deuxhero]

But a magicly reloading crossbow doesn't suffer aim issues...

[Flickerdart]

But a magicly reloading crossbow doesn't suffer aim issues...
Exactly, which is why enchanting your crossbow with the Quick Loading enchantment doesn't make it Exotic.

[Leon]

So it says you draw the lever to reload one of the 5 bolts into the 'chamber' as a free action, so you can shoot 5 times in a round?


If you have 5 attacks then you can indeed empty a clip in one round.
And oh the humanity that you will have to use a full action reloading it... really its not that bad even without a feat to help it.

[Tvtyrant]

I believe you could simply animate a repeating crossbow and have it shoot though. With Animate Objects you could get a lot of rounds.

[Madcrafter]

Such a beast already exists: The arbalester homunculus from MoE. Though it isn't a repeating crossbow IIRC.

[Ravens_cry]

I believe you could simply animate a repeating crossbow and have it shoot though. With Animate Objects you could get a lot of rounds.
You could also go the nanobot route by abusing the games granularity of one been the minimum damage. With shrunken diminutive animated repeating crossbows, you could have a whole hoard in a sack that would spell death to anything without DR or protection from arrows.

[Madcrafter]

Unfortunately, by the time you had your nanobots up and running, most things would have DR of some kind.

[Fax Celestis]

Is there a repeating hand crossbow? I could see some use out of that with the rapier/hand crossbow style/school feats from Drow of the Underdark.

[Eldariel]

If you have 5 attacks then you can indeed empty a clip in one round.
And oh the humanity that you will have to use a full action reloading it... really its not that bad even without a feat to help it.

Well, given it is an Exotic Weapon so picking one up costs a feat, you'd expect it could do more than e.g. the martial Longbow. Repeating Crossbow can fire 5 times once in two rounds. As an exotic weapon. On the same character Longbow can fire once 5 times once in a round every round. As a martial weapon. I...don't really think that's much of a contest.

The reason Crossbows are even used is the fact that they're Simple Weapons. Kinda flies outta the window with EWP. There's dualwielding, but it is hardly useful if you can only attack once every third turn.

[Madcrafter]

You can't even dual wield with the repeating crossbows, since they require another hand to pull the lever.

There are no repeating hand crossbows, though I did make one up for a character once. It had to be magic though to make any kind of sense (so you don't still need that other hand to reset the mechanism).

[Fax Celestis]

There are no repeating hand crossbows, though I did make one up for a character once. It had to be magic though to make any kind of sense (so you don't still need that other hand to reset the mechanism).

Why not? It's just a revolver that shoots bolts instead of bullets. You can even use a speed-loader for quicker reloading.

[Madcrafter]

You still need a mechanism to pull back the string, which requires a lot of energy. Unless you had a string for each bolt. But that would take absolutely forever to reload, though I suppose it might function. It would look extraordinarily bizarre though and would probably be very unwieldy.

[Inferno]

Unless you were building some sort of Organ Gun (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribauldequin) style siege/volley weapon.

[panaikhan]

You still need a mechanism to pull back the string, which requires a lot of energy. Unless you had a string for each bolt. But that would take absolutely forever to reload, though I suppose it might function. It would look extraordinarily bizarre though and would probably be very unwieldy.
In the Goblins(tm) web-comic, there is a dwarven paladin that uses multi-string hand crossbows in each hand.
Reloading is via a special "holster" that pushes all the strings back in one go, and presents the new bolts - though it can only do it once. So that's one pre-loaded bolt and one extra bolt and then you're done.
Taking into account that each of his hand-cannons has 8 strings though, this doesn't seem that much of a problem.

[Spiryt]

In the Goblins(tm) web-comic, there is a dwarven paladin that uses multi-string hand crossbows in each hand.
Reloading is via a special "holster" that pushes all the strings back in one go, and presents the new bolts - though it can only do it once. So that's one pre-loaded bolt and one extra bolt and then you're done.
Taking into account that each of his hand-cannons has 8 strings though, this doesn't seem that much of a problem.

And that is obviously total absurd, or, depending on who you ask, artistic license.

So it all depends on how "probable" one wants his repeating crossbow.

[Leon]

Well, given it is an Exotic Weapon so picking one up costs a feat, you'd expect it could do more than e.g. the martial Longbow. Repeating Crossbow can fire 5 times once in two rounds. As an exotic weapon. On the same character Longbow can fire once 5 times once in a round every round. As a martial weapon. I...don't really think that's much of a contest.

The reason Crossbows are even used is the fact that they're Simple Weapons. Kinda flies outta the window with EWP. There's dualwielding, but it is hardly useful if you can only attack once every third turn.

Sorry forgot, if its not optimal then is not worth any thought on here....


Pending what class you are playing a longbow is a feat or a dip in another class so its really about the same depending on what you are playing.

Sneak attacking would work but like sneak attacking with any ranged weapon its always going to be harder to pull off continually than doing so with a melee weapon (some form of greater invisibility would be the best option)

[Fax Celestis]

There's a difference between optimization and actively hampering your character. Once you hit BAB +6, crossbows just aren't worth it anymore.

[utherphoenyx]

Sorry forgot, if its not optimo junk then is not worth any thought on here.

Pending what class you are playing a longbow is a feat or a dip in another class so its really about the same depending on what you are playing.

yes sadly im noticing that here.....

[Flickerdart]

Sorry forgot, if its not optimo junk then is not worth any thought on here.

Pending what class you are playing a longbow is a feat or a dip in another class so its really about the same depending on what you are playing.
If you're not proficient with the Longbow, then you are not a ranged character, and spending a feat on that proficiency is a waste of everybody's time.


yes sadly im noticing that here.....
D&D is a cooperative game. If you're purposely making bad decisions that make your character terrible (i.e. not crossing the threshold of basic competence) then you are letting down your party, who has to lug your character's sorry ass around and give him a share of the XP and treasure for the privilege. You're breaking versimilitude simply by making a crappy character, because your group should by all rights realize that you're a dead weight and kick you out before you lead them to their collective doom.

[Leon]

And yet you do not need to play anything remotely optimal to do well in D&D - there are good and bad choices most certainly but the optimal playstyle is entirely optional and often over hyped.

[Leon]

And yet you do not need to play anything remotely optimal to do well in D&D - there are good and bad choices most certainly but the optimal playstyle is entirely optional and often over hyped.

[Flickerdart]

And yet you do not need to play anything remotely optimal to do well in D&D - there are good and bad choices most certainly but the optimal playstyle is entirely optional and often over hyped.
Using a repeating crossbow as your main weapon will get you killed against a CR-appropriate encounter, unless your DM is coddling you. The "optimal play style" doesn't mean balls-to-the-wall T1, it means "I am not a dead weight to my party and my options have been selected to help me perform my share of the work rather than with a dartboard", which a lot of people don't seem to understand.

[Spiryt]

Which I guess leads to something like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171229&highlight=crossbow)

Dunno how it bodes with repeating stuff, but I've also been thinking about something like this to make some options for crossbows to be worthwhile, at least to make that one potent shot instead of BaB number of weaker ones.

[Leon]

Using a repeating crossbow as your main weapon will get you killed against a CR-appropriate encounter, unless your DM is coddling you. The "optimal play style" doesn't mean balls-to-the-wall T1, it means "I am not a dead weight to my party and my options have been selected to help me perform my share of the work rather than with a dartboard", which a lot of people don't seem to understand.

Using a repeating crossbow as your main weapon will not get your PC killed any less than any other ranged weapon.

You can do a lot with a PC that is not "optimal" yet still be a fully capable participant in a group game without it being a dead weight. What you may call optimal may well just be common sense choices. But this is D&D where just about anything will work as a character so your mileage may vary on what it really means.





Which I guess leads to something like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171229&highlight=crossbow)

Dunno how it bodes with repeating stuff, but I've also been thinking about something like this to make some options for crossbows to be worthwhile, at least to make that one potent shot instead of BaB number of weaker ones.

Which is a great thing with pathfinder that i have been looking at recently it gives ranged combat a lot more options. Many say that Melee can't have nice things yet it has many more nice things than Ranged combat in 3.5.

[lesser_minion]

You're breaking versimilitude simply by making a crappy character, because your group should by all rights realize that you're a dead weight and kick you out before you lead them to their collective doom.

Things stop making sense at the moment a character concept that should be effective turns out not to be. Don't blame the player for inadvertently making a weak character, blame the system for letting him do so.

The case for optimisation is overblown. You optimise to match the rest of your group, and if someone falls behind, then you either tone things down yourself or you help them up to your level. There is no shame in having the DM not use every single opponent to their absolute full potential (and if you think this is unrealistic, remember that nobody is at their best when something is actively trying to kill them).

As for repeating crossbows, they're an example of what I think Monte Cook actually meant by deliberately unbalancing things to reward players for understanding the system. You won't die if you're a ranged character who uses one, but you'll be weaker than you could be.

[panaikhan]

And that is obviously total absurd, or, depending on who you ask, artistic license.

So it all depends on how "probable" one wants his repeating crossbow.

Take it the other way then. A standard hand crossbow, but a 'holster' with the repeating crossbow mechanism in it. Holstering the crossbow pulls back the string and reloads it with one hand, until the holster is out of bolts.

[Leon]

If you're not proficient with the Longbow, then you are not a ranged character, and spending a feat on that proficiency is a waste of everybody's time.


D&D is a cooperative game. If you're purposely making bad decisions that make your character terrible (i.e. not crossing the threshold of basic competence) then you are letting down your party, who has to lug your character's sorry ass around and give him a share of the XP and treasure for the privilege. You're breaking versimilitude simply by making a crappy character, because your group should by all rights realize that you're a dead weight and kick you out before you lead them to their collective doom.

Ok... when did proficiency in a type of bow become a requirement to play a ranged PC of any type?

Choosing a feat to use a Repeating Cross bow is no more of a bad choice than choosing any other feat - there can be some bad decisions when making and subsequently leveling up a PC but hey they are just people and to err is human.
Characters may change over time and a feat chosen at level one may not be what it used to be, most people mange to live with it or make a New PC if the one they have is unplayable (or use the retraining rules)


Add to the hilarity that its breaking the quality of realism to play something that's not 100% effective all the time - Characters with some flaws are often the more interesting ones in the long run.

[Spiryt]

Take it the other way then. A standard hand crossbow, but a 'holster' with the repeating crossbow mechanism in it. Holstering the crossbow pulls back the string and reloads it with one hand, until the holster is out of bolts.

Again, if you're talking about ideas for the game, that it's nice

- if you're talking about something that would actually work if you put it together under our set of physics, it would make even less sense.

Not only it would be total pain to put crossbow in holster precisely enough to make all this work, but also getting any energy to talk about would be downright impossible.

From what we know "standard" repeating crossbow had huge problems in this regard already. Operating the lever with magazine of bolts on top of it, with pretty unimpressive mechanical advantage, and obviously of very limited draw weight, to make it doable.

[Doughnut Master]

Of course you don't have to play optimally to have a good time or even be successful. As previously stated, it's all about how you compare to the rest of your group.

That said, optimal play as a goal gives us here on the playground something to shoot for. When someone asks for a build idea, it gives us a way to judge as to whether or not we're giving sound advice.

Now, there are other criteria, but that varies from player to player. If someone wants to just shoot a lot of arrows/bolts and turn enemies into pincushions, then our work in optimization shows that the best way to do that is through bows. Similarly, if someone wants to make a longshot character, it shows that bow builds also tend to have the advantage here as well in terms of character effectiveness. However, if someone really just wants to use crossbows, they're free to do that. In this case, the work towards optimization ensures that that person is properly informed of what they're sacrificing for these style points.

We can't design the most optimal fluff for a character, so we relegate ourselves to working under the hood.

[Flickerdart]

Ok... when did proficiency in a type of bow become a requirement to play a ranged PC of any type?
... Characters with some flaws are often the more interesting ones in the long run.
1) It is usually good form to be proficient in the weapon you want to be using, and if you are using a ranged weapon, you should generally be in a class that supports that weapon's use.
2) Character flaws should be RP ones, to make for engaging interaction and roleplaying, or if they be mechanical, then things that don't affect your daily contribution to the party. "I suck at my primary area of expertise" is not an interesting character flaw at all.

[lesser_minion]

If you're not proficient with the Longbow, then you are not a ranged character, and spending a feat on that proficiency is a waste of everybody's time.

Excuse me, but I have a pair of crossbowmen here who'd like a word. Apparently one of them's a swordsage and the other's a warblade (I don't have the specifics of how ToB archery builds work, but I believe there's a pretty big chunk of diamond mind in there).

[Flickerdart]

Excuse me, but I have a pair of crossbowmen here who'd like a word. Apparently one of them's a swordsage and the other's a warblade.
Why? The martial disciplines offer so very little for ranged characters unless you resort to homebrew solutions. And even so, they don't waste a feat on Longbow proficiency either.

[lesser_minion]

Why? The martial disciplines offer so very little for ranged characters unless you resort to homebrew solutions. And even so, they don't waste a feat on Longbow proficiency either.

You use what ToB does offer creatively.

Vanilla ToB archery builds have actually been done. There are quite a few manoeuvres out there that are still helpful if you aren't in melee or even using a melee weapon, and if you can get your hands on a steel crossbow or a bladed crossbow, some of the remaining ones should be open to you as well.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, okay. But unless any of them have taken Repeating crossbows for some godawful reason, I'm not sure how that relates.

[lesser_minion]

Well, no, I wouldn't give a repeating crossbow to someone who could potentially fire off twelve attacks in a single round (Rapid Shot + Time Stands Still + Haste). A quick loading force crossbow would be a better choice, although I don't think I'm the only person who'd insist on describing it as a rifle of some sort.

Repeating Crossbows are really just an artefact of 3.0, when there was no rapid reload feat. They've never been anything other than a trap, however.

[Leon]

1) It is usually good form to be proficient in the weapon you want to be using, and if you are using a ranged weapon, you should generally be in a class that supports that weapon's use.
2) Character flaws should be RP ones, to make for engaging interaction and roleplaying, or if they be mechanical, then things that don't affect your daily contribution to the party. "I suck at my primary area of expertise" is not an interesting character flaw at all.

But it is not a requirement - Good form is only what you perceive as good form for the games you play in. If you are playing a character that uses a ranged weapon and you like a particular weapon then by all means use the weapon that fits with what you want to do by means of feats or class choices - all are valid

RP flawss are all well and good but even mechanical ones can make for a better character - Like a INT 11 Wizard, the player thoroughly enjoy that one.

Being "optimal", being of a "effective" build is all extremely subjective - In this case choosing a feat to use a weapon does not make a PC "suck" at its chosen form of combat, choosing to play a ranged character that Throws weapons not designed for throwing (or without the magical property) is going to make a much less effective character, but may well still be interesting for them and those they play with.

[Flickerdart]

How is playing an intentionally gimped character possibly "interesting"? Effectiveness is absolutely not subjective - if you are not able to fight level appropriate challenges, then you are not effective. If that's not what you're fighting, then the DM is being forced by your terrible choices to coddle you.

[utherphoenyx]

How is playing an intentionally gimped character possibly "interesting"? Effectiveness is absolutely not subjective - if you are not able to fight level appropriate challenges, then you are not effective. If that's not what you're fighting, then the DM is being forced by your terrible choices to coddle you.

either that....or the dm is just lazy and instead of sending a pair of ogres cr5 he sends 15 or so orcs last i checked that is still lvl appropriate and/or the dm likes horde encounters

[Narren]

How is playing an intentionally gimped character possibly "interesting"? Effectiveness is absolutely not subjective - if you are not able to fight level appropriate challenges, then you are not effective. If that's not what you're fighting, then the DM is being forced by your terrible choices to coddle you.

Man...that feat that was wasted on Exotic Weapon Proficiency sure was important. It made this hypothetical character totally irrelevant.

[Diefje]

They're cool, but they need some love. I'd probably end up putting in some sort of modded Handy Xbowclip magic item, that holds many many more bolts and dispenses one into the xbow on pulling the lever. Then it's still not really better than a bow because you need to spend a feat for a sliver of extra dmg. But I guess you could dip Exotic Weapon Master (CW) to get Close Quarters Ranged Attack.

You could even do it as a repeating handcrossbow, because who needs physics if you have magic?

[Medic!]

Character concept goes a long way towards enjoying the game, I would have no problem with a player making a crossbow oriented character at the table. For one thing, the entire game is not combat. Maybe the character concept is a coward or weakling who does amazing out of combat things (NPC interaction, thievery, etc). I personally prefer a game where the party is individually specialized and super reliant on one another to create an entire cohesive capable force.

Also I lol'd so hard at the comment about the holster crossbow thing being absurd. First thing that came to my mind was "In a world where tiny pixies with huge hammers shoot fireballs from their eyes and lightning bolts from their arse..."

[NineThePuma]

I personally do something like this, especially after how crappy crossbows are in general came to my attention. (http://rocksfalleveryonedies.blogspot.com/2009/12/crossbow-lovin.html)

(Also: Flicker, your argument isn't going to convince him. Please let it drop. You can be smug about being right, but educating him is derailing the thread.)

[Myth]

There was this one build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9402918&postcount=238) proposed in one of my threads. It seems it could go places, though it's not that optimized.