[oWoD] Making Mages, Werewolves and Ghosts More Compelling

[nersxe]

I've run quite a bit of oWoD, and I've noticed that whenever I try to run something other than VtM (most notably Mage), it falls a little flat.

In VtM, every single one of the focus group (Kindred) have a shared goal: blood. You lose one blood point every night, and if you get too low, you frenzy. Lower than that, and you become comatose (torpor). Since no character your players will portray can have a resevoir of even a month (most won't even have more than a week at a time), this forces them to interact with the world, to get involved.

In Mage, Werewolf, Demon, Mummy, etc., there's nothing like that. Sure, most mages want to Ascend or become more powerful, most werewolves want to fight evil, and most demons want to find Lucifer, but there's nothing that says any of them absolutely have to do any of that. There are Ronin and Orphans (and their equivalent), who don't have that same unified goal.

My question is, how can I turn the other oWoD settings into something more driving, along the lines of VtM?

The only idea I've had so far is to give mages some sort of "expiration date", where if they don't get a handle on their powers / Ascend, they die a certain amount of time after Awakening. So far I haven't been able to work that out, and I don't have anything at all for the other systems.

Any ideas?

[Reluctance]

Werewolves have the part where they're trying to fight off the freaking apocalypse. It's in the name of the game and everything. So while they can tell their overall society to slag off, it's no worse than any other game where the PCs ignore the plot in favor of getting stinking drunk. The plot devices are built in.

Everything else, you have to count on the fact that if the players didn't want to go along with the plot, they'd be better served staying home and doing something else with their time.

[LemuneSD]

Like Reluctance said, the players don't HAVE to do anything at all. That doesn't mean there won't be consequences for doing nothing though. Basically, try to give them a common goal that they are personally interested in.

Werewolves (assuming the group is a pack) are supposed to listen to their Elders, and they SHOULD listen to the Pack Alpha. The Alpha can throw his weight around if another isn't listening. And if physical encouragement isn't working, the drastic removal from the pack is a possible outcome. A pack that doesn't work together doesn't survive. And Garou are by far not the top of the food chain. They are powerful BECAUSE they run in packs. A lone wolf is often little more than running prey. Garou have many enemies. Black Spiral Dancers (corrupt Garou serving the Wyrm) Banes (generic name for any evil spirit) and even Pentex (a mostly human company working for the Wrym) can easily strike deals with any other supernatural creature. Rival Garou packs are a common enemy as well.

Mages, you usually need a personal motivator. They are not tied to much at all. You can try appealing to their Orders or Traditions, or giving them one of the enemies from the game fluff. Seers of the Throne are "evil" mages that want to remove magic from the world. Tremere liches are interesting, and can be thrown into a Vampire game quite easily as a common enemy. Someone from the Adamantine Arrow hunts down supernatural creatures they deem 'unnatural'.

Hunter is easy enough. Changeling takes ALOT of creativity from everyone present. My group wasn't successful. Wraith, Mummy, Demon and Orpheus...my group hasn't really touched.

I had similar troubles with a Werewolf game I was running. We were about a 12 hours into the campaign, spanned over a month. They were getting a little tired of following plot and were wandering off to the local taverns and such (they were bars. I just like saying tavern!) doing things other than they were supposed to in the name of Gaia. So I let them do their thing for about 30 minutes, then they get a call from one of their NPC friends. The Caern, the player's home that I made them build from scratch, had been demolished by the enemy, and some of their Allies/Contacts/Resources dots were X'd out. That's right. I hit their Character Sheets. They quickly and aggressively got back on track when the war became personal!

[comicshorse]

[QUOTE=LemuneSD;12244576

I had similar troubles with a Werewolf game I was running. We were about a 12 hours into the campaign, spanned over a month. They were getting a little tired of following plot and were wandering off to the local taverns and such (they were bars. I just like saying tavern!) doing things other than they were supposed to in the name of Gaia. So I let them do their thing for about 30 minutes, then they get a call from one of their NPC friends. The Caern, the player's home that I made them build from scratch, had been demolished by the enemy, and some of their Allies/Contacts/Resources dots were X'd out. That's right. I hit their Character Sheets. They quickly and aggressively got back on track when the war became personal![/QUOTE]

Exactly, just because the P.C.s are sitting on their asses doesn't mean their enemies are. If they do that, let them for a bit and then hit them hard and have them scabble to catch up.
For Werewolves I also found the Pack Totem was a good way to give the P.C.s gentle remainders of what there duty is.

[pife]

I'm very interested to see what approaches different folks have taken here. I'm about to start a Werewolf game with two of my kids, and it's really going out on a limb for me. I've DM'd DnD for.. good lord, 27 years, and have PLAYED WoD game before, but, with the exception of a 4 session Hunter game that imploded when two of the players decided (IRL) that they hated each other, have never ST'd WoD..

So you guys just feel free to toss all kinds of ideas up here for me to plagiarize the heck out of, lol.. (just kidding.. mostly)..

[nersxe]

Hmmm. I think maybe I just need to switch to a "lighter" system. My players derail the plot because they decide to go into a Target for half the session; maybe they would do better with a less serious (and less rules-intensive) game.

I'm gonna try hitting their dots as a last-ditch in this game, I'll let you guys know how it goes over.

Sent from my VM670 Using ForumTouch for Android

[comicshorse]

I'm very interested to see what approaches different folks have taken here. I'm about to start a Werewolf game with two of my kids, and it's really going out on a limb for me. I've DM'd DnD for.. good lord, 27 years, and have PLAYED WoD game before, but, with the exception of a 4 session Hunter game that imploded when two of the players decided (IRL) that they hated each other, have never ST'd WoD..

So you guys just feel free to toss all kinds of ideas up here for me to plagiarize the heck out of, lol.. (just kidding.. mostly)..

Werewolf is probably the best OWoD game for this task. The pack structure of Werewolf gives structure to the group and enables you to introduce seamlessly other NPC's who can cover the area your P.C.s may be weak in. Just regard the Auspice of the Werewolf as a DnD class and you'll get the basic idea. Ragabash=Rogue, Theurge=Cleric, Ahroun=Fighter ( but is actually good at it :smallcool:).
Here you have a perfect in-game reason for comrades in arms who the P.C.s can trust ( a rare thing in most WoD games). They can also be there to help out with decisions if you feel the P.C.s are about to do something suicidal, after all their necks are on the line as well.
The Pack Totem is very important as well, make sure it fits the ethos of the Pack and is not just grabbed for funky bonuses.
Work out your Caern ! This is the P.C.s home and where the rest of the local Werewolves are and should be as detailed as time affords you.
Understand Werewolves are aggressive. They will snap and snarl and fight, that is the Rage at work in them. Roleplay this but remember that because of this they tend to regard fights among Caern less seriously than you or I would. Its quite possible for Wereqwolves to be smashing the hell out of each other one night and then making up by going and slaughtering a Wyrm spirit the next.
Don't bring in other sytems creatures ( mages, vampires, ghosts) unless you're sure it will add to the game and you've got a grasp of their rules. We happily ran a whole Werewolf campaigh where we meet ONE supernatural from the other games ( and as that was in a dream and were not sure we actually met him. Damn Mages)

[nersxe]

I second the above post.

I especially second not bringing anything in unless you're 100% sure it will add and not detract. From what I've read, each of these settings is complete in and of itself, though they do work together well.

Personally, I would think that the Orpheus books and Werewolf would work well together, if you can find an explanation for the ghostwalking aspect of Orpheus fitting in with the less physical parts of Werewolf.

[LemuneSD]

So you guys just feel free to toss all kinds of ideas up here for me to plagiarize the heck out of, lol.. (just kidding.. mostly)..
I can (and wouldn't mind at all!) offer a few suggestions about campaign ideas. But to get potentially suitable ideas, we'd need more demographic details. How old are the kids? Is it just the two playing? Are they interested in more serious, dramatic, horror or comical scenes?

If they are relatively new to Werewolf, then having them start as younger kids just going through their first change might work. My group usually did this as small one-on-one sessions developed after getting a grasp of how the player wanted their character to act and their history. Chosen Background details work well here. Any mentors, allies, contacts, resources, Fetishes to flesh out? Easy way to get a player personally interested in their character's life. Personal involvement, of course, is what helps a player imagine their character as more than just dots on a piece of paper! =D

With their new found abilities, they can be set up for their Rite of Passage and given a small but important task. This can vary widely depending on the chosen Tribes or even Breed.

Some players like to skip the whole Rite of Passage thing, assuming their characters already are familiar with themselves and their Pack. They want to get straight into the thick of things!

Any specific details about what the players like and are wanting their characters to be would really help with possible suggestions! I know I've gotten plenty of help from the people here. :smallbiggrin:

[1of3]

My question is, how can I turn the other oWoD settings into something more driving, along the lines of VtM?

Mages usually will die about 50 to 70 years after their Awakening, unless they do something about it. You can certainly stretch the narrative a little.

[nersxe]

Mages usually will die about 50 to 70 years after their Awakening, unless they do something about it. You can certainly stretch the narrative a little.

Well... yeah. They do, just like any other humans. That's not exactly what I meant, though. I would prefer not running a game where my characters are quite that mature, as humans.

[pife]

Well, my daughter is 12, and shy.. (But bloodthirsty and conniving, if her tactics in D&D are to be believed).. She seems to be most comfortable being railroaded.. She hasn't shown a real desire to dissect plots and extrapolate.. I kinda have to put the details on the table, point her in the right direction, that kind of thing.

My son, (and yes, I KNOW that this is wayyyyy young) is 8.. However, he's got "the spark".. that natural roleplayer instinct, and he's constantly surprising me with how easily he can comprehend complex situations (even if his typical response is "kill it"). Contrary to his sister, he's normally the one that railroads ME.. He's never at a loss for words, and, he doesn't put up with much guff from NPC's, lol. (Which is why I think I'm going to see if he'll play a Rage-heavy Ahroun.. It will fit his natural play style.. ) When I give him a little bit of story exposition, he's off and running, normally taking it six ways that I never even anticipated..

We started a Vampire: Dark Ages game a few weeks ago, but there are a couple of problems with it.. They are both struggling with the "subtlety" issue.. They attacked a small patrol of town watchmen who had challenged them and asked why they were where they were without any attempt at diplomacy, escape or.. well.. subtlety.. They just killed em, drained em, left the bodies... They seem genuinely confused that they can't just leave bloodless corpses all over the countryside.. And they haven't quite gotten used to having Contacts, and Allies, and Retainers, all that jazz.. (Too used to DnD)..

Anyway, my son likes to take charge, my daughter likes to go with the flow, but is just as likely to kill anyone that doesn't agree with her.. (That poor stable boy, lol).. Most of is is likely just that a) they're new to roleplaying, and b) what little experience they do have is in DnD, which, if they're running around in the woods, and something that "looks" like a monster approaches them, they're just used to rolling for initiative and laying into it, rather than attempt to talk to it..

I'm thinking about setting them up as duelling Ahroun's.. Neither likes to listen to the other, both like to resort to violence when they don't get their way (in game, I mean), and both are very likely to go off half-cocked without getting all of the details.. I figure if I run two NPC Garou, a Theurge (for healing, and as the plot exposition for the Umbra and the spirit world), and a metis Galliard who will NOT be vying for alpha status, and will fall into the role of mentor/teacher.. Between the two of them, they should be able to keep the Ahrouns from killing each other. Maybe, lol.

I'm wanting to stay sorta horror-light, touching on but not really getting microscopic with the gore and the perversion..

I'm also thinking about having the entire pack be from one clan, to cut down on initial confusion and friction.. Theirs will be a very small caern, (level 1 or 2) that has recently taken heavy losses, that will be desperate for a new pack to form. Ack, work beckons.. More to come..

BTW, I'm not certain if I want to do the Rite of Passage thing. Although either of them would probably love a 1 on 1 vignette with me to set the stage.. They're just not really good at jumping into the "mindset" of their character.. They kinda play it like it's a video game.. My character can lift x weight, and hit y hard and get z reward.. They play the stats, not the character, and that's been difficult for me to teach, as they've never had any other "players" around to see or emulate.

[LemuneSD]

Sorry, Pife. Re-reading my comment that I posted super late (or early?), I should have probably specified. You should make your own thread and we'd be glad to assist. We don't wanna hijack Nersxe's topic now, do we? >=D
I know I didn't even hint at it in the previous post, but we don't wanna go too in-depth while on another topic.

[pife]

I didn't even think of that.. You're absolutely right. Sorry about that..

[The Reverend]

Okay I can help you with mage. Its an extremely complex and difficult to GM as the players can do anything, literally given enough cooperation and time. It is not a game that responds to railroading. You have to build a world and understand it and be able to pull monkeys on fire out of your ass.


The answer is you have to talk with tje players about what kind of campaign they and you want to play. Do they want to fight nephandi, the technocracy, zoom around saturns moon in a son of ether rocket ship, or try and build hope in the community they live in. You have to establish goals for them that at least all point in the same general direction. An SoE ghost hunter, chorister exorcist, Akashic geomancer, and a Orphan Monster hunter would make great nephandi baggers. Not only must the players cohese, but so must the GM and his players.

You must be at the top of your game and have 75 games planned out, because its not railroading if you have every possibility planed foe or at least thumb nailed sketch. Your players....just tell them " They better be ready to fly with the eagles."

Plus you gotta be Smart to play mage and have fun, average rollplayers need not apply...ditto times 99 for GMs. Most Vampire players I know dont have a lot of fun playing mage and The Masquerade just seems.....like undead Beverly Hills 90210 crossed with Godfather 3.

[Draxar]

In VtM, every single one of the focus group (Kindred) have a shared goal: blood. You lose one blood point every night, and if you get too low, you frenzy. Lower than that, and you become comatose (torpor). Since no character your players will portray can have a resevoir of even a month (most won't even have more than a week at a time), this forces them to interact with the world, to get involved.

I've rarely found blood to be that much of a core goal in the V:tM games I've played in. Generally it's assumed that you're a vaguely competent creature, and you've sorted your night to night survival feeding. You may well go into this with your ST, and discuss broadly what it is you do, but 'having enough blood to survive' doesn't generally require rolls in games I've played in.

Turning up to a random meeting on a high amount of blood, or getting it back quickly after you've spent a lot of it, sure. But not subsistence level.

[Jerthanis]

As far as Mage goes, here is the fundamental problem that forces Tradition Mages to pursue alliances: None of them are strong enough alone to reject and make changes to the consensus. None are as strong as the Technocracy, or else they would be the consensus themselves.

However, each faction knows that should they win, one of them will become consensus and each one wants it to be their own reality.

In addition, Mages lost to Paradox can be insanely dangerous, so there needs to be a certain degree of checks and balances among them to keep an eye out for these new madmen with godlike power and stop them before they cause too much damage.

[LemuneSD]

Assuming they don't spontaneously combust from paradox xD

[Giarc]

Or explode. Or melt. Or get shunted into a paradox realm.