Beguiler build advice pls.

[Bloodgruve]

For an upcoming Kingmaker 3.P game I'm leaning towards Beguiler9/Rogue1/Unseen Seer10 Whisper Gnome

I enjoy getting into melee but I am afraid of being less than effective in combat, due to my inexperience with battlefield control and utility. So I am leaning towards touch attacks + SA for damage output. My priority is control>damage, that being said is it silly to build for some SA with this base class? Should I forgo SA and focus on casting and face skills?

Currently the feats I'm looking at are Weapon Finesse, Shadow Weave Magic, Arcane Disciple Cold/Moon/Pride, Craven and Knowledge Devotion for starters.

Now, with this build I'm faced with having Con16/Cha10 or Con12/Cha14. I'm leaning towards the higher Con score because I'll be in some melee but that leaves the Cha skills low. In another thread it was mentioned that Diplomacy, Stealth and Nova builds worked well for the campaign.

Advice appreciated.

TYVM
Blood~

[Fenryr]

Have you read The Beguiler's Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872218/-_The_New_Beguiler_Handbook_-_2008)?

Also, what sources are aviable?

[gorfnab]

Whisper Gnome + Magic in the Blood feat + sneak attack (rogue, unseen seer) + Silencing Strike feat = 3/day screw over an enemy caster who doesn't have the Silent Spell feat or who didn't prepare their spells with Silent Spell.

[Bloodgruve]

Have you read The Beguiler's Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872218/-_The_New_Beguiler_Handbook_-_2008)?

Also, what sources are aviable?

I have been looking through the handbooks. They are very informative. They seem to shy away from SA or Gish builds though.

All sources are available.

I guess I'm playing off the beguiler/rogue synergy, mainly because I'm trying to find a source of damage output. Is there a better way with a full caster build?

Silencing Strike>Magic in the Blood looks fun.

TY for the input.
Blood~

[Venger]

I have been looking through the handbooks. They are very informative. They seem to shy away from SA or Gish builds though.

All sources are available.

I guess I'm playing off the beguiler/rogue synergy, mainly because I'm trying to find a source of damage output. Is there a better way with a full caster build?

Silencing Strike>Magic in the Blood looks fun.

TY for the input.
Blood~

congrats on beguiler! I've played beguilers aplenty in my day, they're tons of fun.

daggerspell mage from complete adventurer gives exactly what you're looking for: 9/10ths casting and 3 dice of SA.

I would personally suggest not going into unseen seer with a beguiler. most of your spells are not divination, but illusion or enchantment. since you have a fixed spell list, you're shooting yourself in the foot with its caster penalty ability. while it does give sneak attack, it doesn't really help out with gishdom.

daggerspell mage, on the other hand, does and requires TWF and weapon focus dagger to get in, which are terrible feats, but you don't care, you are a beguiler, nonspecialised casters aren't particularly feat hungry

you can deliver touch damaging spells with dagger attacks and cast somatic spells even if you've got a dagger in each hand. they can also turn half the damage from a spell to slashing, but you are a beguiler, so don't worry about this unless you're dipping sandshaper

nicholas the paladin's beguiler guide is wonderful, but it is a beguiler guide, thus assuming that you'll play it straight as most people do and gives advice accordingly. gish beguilers are somewhat uncommon due to their spell list being for the most part undamaging (with the exception of legion of sentinels, power word kill, and the whealms, if you want to get technical) but it's not entirely unheard of.

daggerspell shaper gives good ref/will saves, 3/4 BA (better than your 1/2), 9/10ths casting, and some cool melee abilities. don't forget that "spellcasting" lets you keep racking up your "advanced learning" spells.

good luck with your guy!

[Malachei]

I'm not sure this is the direction you want to take your build, but generally, I'd consider Quicken Spell + Rapid Metamagic.

[Thespianus]

For an upcoming Kingmaker 3.P game I'm leaning towards Beguiler9/Rogue1/Unseen Seer10 Whisper Gnome

I enjoy getting into melee but I am afraid of being less than effective in combat, due to my inexperience with battlefield control and utility. So I am leaning towards touch attacks + SA for damage output. My priority is control>damage, that being said is it silly to build for some SA with this base class? Should I forgo SA and focus on casting and face skills?

The problem with a Beguiler Sneak Attacker is, first off, it's hard for you to hit things properly, unless you find a way to use Extended/Permanent Wraithstrike without having your DM explode on you. ;) Secondly, you have very few spells to help you do damage. While the Beguiler spells and class features help you get in a position to Sneak Attack, once you start hitting (or missing) you might find that the damage you deliver is sub-par, even with Craven and Hunter's Eye.

I have been trying to make a Beguiler/Rogue/Unseen Seer be more fun than a Wizard/Rogue/Unseen Seer, and I have failed. The synergies with the Beguiler and the Rogue aren't that great with regards to sneak attack damage.

I believe you should only use Sneak Attack as a last resort for your character, the Beguiler is a very cool battlefield control class and I think that's the role you will really shine in.

[Bloodgruve]

I was looking at using spells like chill touch, blade of pain and fear, claws of darkness and moon blade as means to get sneak attacks using melee touch attacks. TY for the input.

Blood~

[Thespianus]

I was looking at using spells like chill touch, blade of pain and fear, claws of darkness and moon blade as means to get sneak attacks using melee touch attacks. TY for the input.


How do you get those spells on your Beguiler spell list? I'm sure there are ways, I'm just curious.

[Aegis013]

Could drop the rogue for a level of Factotum and pick up Iaijutsu focus from Oriental Adventures. It's basically skill based sneak attack, might be better for your purposes, you won't have to branch into SA classes and you'll get an SA like ability that scales with level/ranks.

[Darth_Versity]

For an unseen seer gish type character, beguiler isn't the best entry. Generally a beguiler works best with just a 1 lvl dip into mindbender for telepathy and mindsight and then staying with beguiler the rest of the way.

Rogue 1/Wizard 4/ unseen seer 10/ Abjurant champion 5 is a much better sneaky gish build.

[Bloodgruve]

How do you get those spells on your Beguiler spell list? I'm sure there are ways, I'm just curious.

You can grab them through Arcane Disciple and Advanced Learning. Or have a Runestaff made that holds them.

I am currently running a Factotum in another campaign, IF is a great skill and I'm having a lot of fun with it but how could I keep max ranks in IF with only one level of Factotum?


For an unseen seer gish type character, beguiler isn't the best entry. Generally a beguiler works best with just a 1 lvl dip into mindbender for telepathy and mindsight and then staying with beguiler the rest of the way.
Is there a decent source of damage output with this build? Or do I just leave the damage dealing to other people? Like I said I've never run a pure caster and I don't know how they play.

TYVM
Blood~

[Darth_Versity]

Is there a decent source of damage output with this build? Or do I just leave the damage dealing to other people? Like I said I've never run a pure caster and I don't know how they play.

TYVM
Blood~

Well im currently playing a Lesser Tiefling Beguiler 9/ Minbender 1. I mostly do battlefiled control and Debuff/Buff. With the addition of Evards Black Tentacles thanks to the Penumbra Bloodline feat I can keep most enemies grappled while our warriors pound on them with the addition of Freedom of Movement.

Beguiler can work as a gish build, but any such build is generally weaker than just a strait Beguiler.

Its a great class to play and introduces the concept of God Wizard with a much easier chasis thanks to light armor, high skill points, higher HD and best of all, not having to prepare spells ahead of time.

It has a great range of Battlefield Control, Buff, Debuff, but seriously lacks real damage spells. But there is a good answer to that. The Penumbra Bloodline also gives acccess to Shadow Evocation, which can allow you to use evocation spells in a tight spot (i've only done it once so far to drop a fireball on a large group of weaker enemies) or using UMD with a Runestaff that has some blasty spells (some people argue that it doesn't work but I can't see why not)

My character currently has two runestaffs which give access to the Summon Monster 1-5, Fly, Rope Trick and Jump. So far i've only used them twice as I have had plenty to do in combat.

If you do want a more combat gish style options then you could look at getting a runestaff with wraithstrike and steeldance to get many smaller hits in a round.

[Paul H]

Hi

What about Beguiler 6/Rainbow Servant xx?


Sure, you lose all those nice extra Skill Points, but being a spont caster with both Beguiler & entire Cleric lists to choose from?

So many Spells, so little time..... :smallbiggrin:

Thanks
Paul H

[hex0]

Dip into Spellthief instead of Rogue (preferably Trickster Spellthief ACR) before going into Unseen Seer. You'll still get Sneak Attack, but you'll have more tricks up your sleave.

[Fax Celestis]

Dip into Spellthief instead of Rogue (preferably Trickster Spellthief ACR) before going into Unseen Seer. You'll still get Sneak Attack, but you'll have more tricks up your sleave.

And you can take Master Spellthief to get rid of the CL loss and increase your stealable spell level.

[Bloodgruve]

Dip into Spellthief instead of Rogue (preferably Trickster Spellthief ACR) before going into Unseen Seer. You'll still get Sneak Attack, but you'll have more tricks up your sleave.

This is what I want.

So Spellthief with Master Spellthief Feat and Trickster ACF would open full spell steal progression. Now with the ACF giving bard spells at a bard spell progression level would that open up all those spells to spontaneous casting as a beguiler? Per ACF "your caster level equals your spellthief level", per Master Spellthief "Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells." What spells and progression does this give me? Is this full progression in both classes?

Beguiler 9/Spellthief 1/Unseen Seer 10 looks fun but Beguiler/Mindbender is interesting too.


Blood~

[Bloodgruve]

Daggerspell Mage looks fun too but I think when all is said and done you end up with a BAB of 11 to 13 at lvl 20. I'd like to work with touch attacks but it doesn't seem they would work with this PrC. I know there are some feats that would up Hit though.

TY
Blood~

[Frosty]

For maximum roleplay fun, play this race and then use Bluff to convince NPCs that you're a familiar. This'll get them flat-footed vs you when you strike :smallbiggrin:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ssouth_gallery/84366.jpg

[Gavinfoxx]

Seen this handbook too?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240.0

Also, Frosty is referencing a creature that is called the Beguiler.

Yes, you can actually BE a Beguiler Beguiler. And I believe there are ways that you can just say variations of the word 'Beguiler!' and have people understand what you are saying, too...

[Frosty]

Seen this handbook too?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240.0

Also, Frosty is referencing a creature that is called the Beguiler.

Yes, you can actually BE a Beguiler Beguiler. And I believe there are ways that you can just say variations of the word 'Beguiler!' and have people understand what you are saying, too...A Beguiler is NOT a lightning-themed Warmage :smalltongue:

[Bloodgruve]

TY all.

We're starting the campaign on Sunday and I think I'm going with

Beguiler9/Trickster Spellthief1/Daggerspell Mage 10

Feats:
Shadow Weave Magic, Weapon Finesse, TWF, Master Spell Thief, Weapon Focus Dagger, Penumbra Bloodline, Arcane Disciple: Pride, Arcane Disciple: Travel, Craven

I figure Divine Power from Pride will help out after lvl 9. Its gishy but I think I'll have fun with it. I think the group will be t3 cept for the cleric coming in but I don't think he knows all the tricks.

Blood~

[Fax Celestis]

If you can dip one level into Shadow Adept (PGtF), it gets you Insidious, Tenacious, and Pernicious Magic for free, which augment pretty much all of your beguiler stuff.

[Lateral]

Yes, you can actually BE a Beguiler Beguiler.
No, you can't. They're cohort-only.