Sniping

[Ardantis]

I've always been curious about the sniping mechanic, but I've never seen a thread about it.

Sniping allows a hidden character to make a ranged attack and remain hidden, albeit at a -20 to the atttack roll.

That seems fairly difficult to pull off reliably, and one ranged attack won't generally do much against opponents who could always just leave the area.

However, I was investigating the racial substitution levels in Races of the Wild, and I found the Halfling Rogue 10th level substitution gives the ability to make sniping attacks as full attacks and at only a -10 modifier.

With their ranged sneak attack AND a full attack, this seems like it might be an interesting assassination mechanic against low hp NPCs (aristocrats and the like).

Has anyone used the sniping mechanic in a game? Either as a dependable ability or in some unexpected or amazing scenario?

[Daftendirekt]

Being unable to snipe well without magic is probably the biggest thing I hate about 3.5, being somebody who loves playing snipers.

[W3bDragon]

The -20 is to the hide check, not the attack.

[Hirax]

Optimizing hide is pretty easy, and not everyone is going to optimize spot, so it's useful. Also, if you're using a crossbow and thus able to shoot through a slit or blind of some sort, it becomes astronomically harder to spot you.

[Ardantis]

Sooo... have any of you actually used sniping in a game?

Edit: Thanks for the catch about the -20 applying to the hide check and not the attack roll. Question stands, though- has anyone used it?

[TurtleKing]

You are talking about D&D's sniping mechanic. If you want to talk about sniping as in RL able to hit something miles away I have thread going about such. Ranges could get above 10,000ft with several ways to put that upto 12,000-18,000 pre-epic. Epic just grab Distant Shot feat or weapon enhancement and have unlimited range as long have LoE. As for spotting things at such range Malphas's Bird's Eye Viewing is basically an UAV that lets you see what the Raven sees.

[Flickerdart]

Being unable to snipe well without magic is probably the biggest thing I hate about 3.5, being somebody who loves playing snipers.
Sniping is fairly aberrant to D&D's design philosophy anyway - the game system is built around discrete encounters, while a long-range sniper can deal with enemies without any encounter having taken place. While that is indeed the point of a sniper, you can surely see the problem with PCs exterminating their enemies from hundreds of feet away with a single blow.

And then you get Scry&Die, and the whole thing falls apart anyway.

[thejibboo]

i haven't used it yet, but the end of my next story arc is going to have a sniper villain, so i've been looking over the rules a bit. one thing to keep in mind is the -1 to spot per 10 feet. with a composite long bow you can shoot over 200 feet at only a -2 penalty and have your enemy at a -20 to spot.

[Emperor Tippy]

Sure, here is one of my standard NPC's. The sniping assassin version.
http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=19176

I used Factotum because it provides you with the skill points and skill bonuses along with extra actions, access to some helpful spells, and allows fairly decent SAD.

Add Hardened Criminal and you can get the ability to always take 10 on hide checks.

Granted, that build goes for a single attack when sniping (not a full attack), but it deals an average of 41 damage (which can be pumped a fair amount if you use a magical weapon).

This build was also more of a harrier build in that it would hit and fade, wearing the PC's down over minutes or even hours.

[Ardantis]

Flickerdart, I would have to disagree with you, or at least ask for some clarification.

DnD works particularly well with encounters which encompass noncombat action, compared to other systems I have played. Sometimes I find the social aspect of the game slightly gimped, but I find that encounters which involve character-based puzzle solving or creative solutions are fairly well supported by the system.

That being said, I agree with you that the sniping mechanic is not a combat mechanic, and therefore feels sort of weird.

I had heard of the long-range archer builds which can rain death on distant targets, it sort of sounds like the physical version of scry'n'die, but that's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking specifically about the sniping mechanic in the Player's Handbook.

A sniping opponent would make for a very tense encounter, something akin to a war movie feel, and I'm not surprised that some of you have built them.

Has anyone built a PC this way?

EDIT: Hardened Criminal plus enough distance from target could most certainly present the basis for an effective build, although from what Flickerdart has mentioned, it's sort of like building a noncombat character.

[AslanCross]

The Crossbow Sniper feat allows an increased Sneak Attack range (out to 60') and adds half your Dex bonus to damage.

The Able Sniper feat adds a +4 bonus to the Hide check, as well as well as a +2 bonus on your attack roll if the target is 60' away or further.

What you really want, though, is the spell sniper's shot, which gives unlimited range on your next Sneak Attack.

Other things to remember:
-Hide is opposed by Spot.
-Spot has a range penalty.
-Spot is rarely optimized in monsters.
-There are numerous other ways to increase your Hide check (blend cream, greater invisibility, some racial abilities that provide natural camouflage).

I once used a Greenspawn Sneak with Rogue levels to snipe the PCs from the highest tower of a castle, over 400 feet away (easy thanks to the Gnome Crossbow sight). It was very devastating to the party wizard; a single 5d6+4 damage knocked him to negatives instantly.

The problem here is that like in real life, sniping needs a lot of set-up time and fieldcraft. You can't just snipe from a corner of the 20x20 room the fighter just barged into. As such it's extremely poor for dungeons.

One of my players used Deadeye Shot (ready an action to shoot an opponent who is hit by a melee attack; that opponent is considered flat-footed) with his crossbow to remain relevant in close quarters.

[KillianHawkeye]

If you want to talk about sniping as in RL able to hit something miles away I have thread going about such.

I'm pretty sure most sniping doesn't take place from miles away even in real life. Hundreds of yards away, maybe, but not miles. In any case, the action of sniping doesn't automatically indicate great distance.

[Flickerdart]

I'm pretty sure most sniping doesn't take place from miles away even in real life. Hundreds of yards away, maybe, but not miles. In any case, the action of sniping doesn't automatically indicate great distance.
The record sniper kill is 2.5km, so that should be about par for a 6th level character (peak of human achievement).

[TurtleKing]

@KillianHawkeye: Do you know what the… Wait I can't say that. That would be giving away info that shouldn't be doing.

As for what I can say most snipers are expected to hit targets about 1 km away consistently. To put that in perspective imagine hitting a very large portion of the time at max range on a longbow. Closest ability that does that is Cragtop Archer's Horizon Shot.

That 2.5km shot was at 2,500ft. As for hitting things miles away have you checked out Magnums or other rifles designed to used by sniper's? I think the max for them on range is 7 miles. Or was that a .50 Sniper Rifle? Though a km is about max a person can expect in most situations. Rarely will you have the terrain to pull off much past that.

Lets see my piss poor vision I could maybe hit a target around 200-250ft away when doing my Basic Marksmanship Training while in Basic. Couldn't shoot very far, but could zero pretty well.

[Flickerdart]

That 2.5km shot was at 2,500ft. As for hitting things miles away have you checked out Magnums or other rifles designed to used by sniper's? I think the max for them on range is 7 miles. Or was that a .50 Sniper Rifle? Though a km is about max a person can expect in most situations. Rarely will you have the terrain to pull off much past that.
2.5km is over 8200 feet.

[Talentless]

2.5km is over 8200 feet.

I think he means elevation. 2,500 feet elevation can add a lot of distance capability to a shot.

[TurtleKing]

Wait stupid me a meter is 3.x feet so yea that number sounds about right what can moderatley optimise your range to.

[Flickerdart]

I think he means elevation. 2,500 feet elevation can add a lot of distance capability to a shot.
2500 feet is when altitude sickness starts. I don't think having snipers placed so high would be very useful. :smalltongue:

[Seharvepernfan]

2500 feet is when altitude sickness starts. I don't think having snipers placed so high would be very useful. :smalltongue:

That would be 25,000.

Anyways, yeah, the spot penalty for distance is a snipers best friend.

Sniper
Pre: Dex 13, Wis 13, Precise Shot, Far Shot
Benefit: As a full round action, you can apply precision damage out to your weapons range if the target hasn't detected you (includes death attack).

Nifty little feat I added to my homebrew. Combine that with far shot or distance and you'll be sniping away in no time.

[Knaight]

That would be 25,000.

2,500 isn't even impressive. I live at over twice that, and altitude sickness hasn't even crossed my mind as a problem with where I live. Plus, this is before one actually gets onto any of the nearby mountains.

[Curmudgeon]

2500 feet is when altitude sickness starts. I don't think having snipers placed so high would be very useful. :smalltongue:
I think that should be 2.5 kilometers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altitude_sickness), actually. I found when backpacking in the mountains around Aspen, Colorado that I'd wake up several times in the night with a headache. While awake I could compensate for the altitude (10,000' - 14,000') by consciously taking deeper breaths, but my unconscious body didn't manage so well.

[Hazzardevil]

Will be people stop multiplying and dividing by 10 with these figures!:smallmad:

[Gandariel]

you mean by 100 :smallcool:

[AslanCross]

Sooo... have any of you actually used sniping in a game?

Edit: Thanks for the catch about the -20 applying to the hide check and not the attack roll. Question stands, though- has anyone used it?

I've used it, and a player of mine has used it. It requires a lot of setup, as I've mentioned, and requires a certain level of prior knowledge of the encounter. The player used the Deadeye Shot feat to remain relevant in unplanned/close-quarter encounters.

[Ardantis]

I appreciate all the banter about the topic, it really fleshes it out for me.

I would like to particularly thank Aslancross for providing the most useful mechanics advice, and Flickerdart and others for pointing out that sniping is not a particularly interesting or useful PC build.

That said, I'm totally building a sniper antagonist for my ongoing game, using some amount and combination of Able Sniper, Deadeye Shot, Hardened Criminal, Crossbow Sniper, sniper's shot, Hide items, and a Gnome crossbow sight. Might also use the Halfling Rogue substitution levels, the extra 1d6 ranged sneak attack is nice. Depends on how bad I need a feat to make the build work at lvl 6.

Thanks all!

[IncoherentEssay]

Adapting the Rifleman Prc from Iron Kingdoms for the crossbow is worth looking into. It gains the Sniping Shot at 2nd level (attack once as full-round, if hidden and outside point-blank range -> attack automatically a crit threat, though at class-level-based multiplier) which combines quite nicely with the Telling Blow feat (add sneak attack/skirmish damage to all crits, phb II) for a 'pure skill' single-shot sniper. No range limits either. Probably works best on a Rogue/Scout Swift Ambusher.
Though if you have a lot of static bonuses, the x6 snipe-crit-multiplier at Prc lvl10 is also nifty.

[Madcrafter]

For some reason that rifleman PrC you mention makes me think of Lighning Maces... If only such a build could work.

[Legendairy]

Well you have the longest kill shot( roughly a mile and a half) made by a Canadian sniper named furlong if I remember correctly. A few facts about that it was 9000 ft elevation in Afghanistan in 2001 he had to lead the target 15 feet in front and 15 feet high it took three rounds to hit him and he was using a .50 cal militech rifle with American rounds.

When we had to go through sniper school and such we shot upwards of 1300 meters and had to be accurate. In a long range course you have to shoot an m16 800 meters with iron sights.

In DnD there is no equal, the system doesn't allow for it.

Also at the longest shot its a 4 second wait until the round hits it's target so you really have to know what's going on.

[TurtleKing]

No you can get a shot at such distances. Cragtop Archer is the only known way to effectively pull it off. Arcing Shot increases the range increments upto 15, Horizon Shot lets you shoot out to max range with no range increment penalty. Just a Composite Longbow with Arcing Shot gets 1650ft range. Tack on Far Shot-(165) 2475, Ranged Weapon Mastery-(185) 2775, Dragonbone-(205) 3075, Distance- (410) 6150, Deepwood Sniper-(510) 7650. Granted math may be off considering if bow is made out of Dragonbone and Ranged Weapon Mastery comes before Far Shot or not may change the figures. This was without adding spells. But basically toward the top of the range can fit those ranges or even exceed them.