Wildshape changes: Buff, nerf, or meh?

[Coidzor]

...And how much of one? I'm imagining mostly meh.

So, a few different thoughts occurred to me as I was passing out last night, and I was wondering what ya'll thought would be the end result for anyone liable to try 'em out.

1. A. Instead of replacing one's physical ability scores with that of the creature that one turns into, apply the racial stat changes that take the simple array of 3 10s and 3 11s and turn it into the creature to the character's ability scores as a bonus for the duration of wild shape. So a druid who wildshapes into, a Dire Bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direBear.htm) gets Str +20, Dex +2, and Con +8 rather than Str 31, Dex 13, and Con 19, so dumping strength, say, 4 points to a 6 instead of a 10, would mean that instead of a Druid-Dire Bear with Str 31 or 30, it'd be a druid-dire bear with Str 26. Conversely, a druid who pumped strength to 16 would end up with Str 36

B. How about instead of just modifying the physical scores, the mental ones were also modified. So that same druid turning into a Dire Bear gets -8 Int, +2 Wis, and +0 Cha. (Sudden vulnerabiliy to Int and possibly Cha damage as well as potentially buffed/diminished save DCs.)


C. Both mental and physical change as in 1.B., except that the change can't take the druid's physical ability scores above that of the creature with a bonus and penalties can't drop a druid's physical ability score below that of the creature. So a Druid with 9 Int couldn't be dropped to 1 Int by turning into an animal with 2 Int and Druids can't knock themselves into a coma by wildshaping after taking Int damage/drain, but they also can't become stronger than the creatures they're transforming into because of their base physical strength. Due to the way things stack to the advantage of the players, items and spells that enhanced ability scores would apply after the wildshape caveat.

2. A. Similar to 1.A., but instead apply the ability score modifiers of each of the creature being transformed into as bonuses to the relevant abilities of the creature being transformed. So that druid turning into a dire bear gets Str +10, Dex +1, Con +4. (edit: assume here that changes to Con will be like the barbarian's rage, in that it does increase one's HP total)

B. is to 2.A. as 1.B. is to 1.A., modifying mental as well as physical, so druid > Dire Bear gets Int -4, Wis +1, Cha +0 in addition to the physical modification. Still a significant hit to Int, but not cripplingly so if they're above average.

3. Druids can turn into advanced versions of creatures, but only the lowest HD version of each size category that the creature can be advanced to.

4. Instead of a HD limitation, have it so that one can only transform into animals of CR =ECL-3 or CR=ECL-4, maybe CR=ECL-5.
4.A. Couple this with 1.B.
4.B. Couple this with 2.B.
4.C. Couple this with 3, but have it take an extra HD or 2 if that would increase the CR. (so, back to the Dire Bear example, a Druid can turn into ye olde CR 7 one one at ECL 11-13 and turn into an advanced to Huge, CR 10 Dire Bear at ECL 13-15)
4.D. The CR limitation and the Druid must have HD equal to the creature's HD.

[Aegis013]

I'm going to be totally honest and frank with you. All of this looks like a huge buff to druids, which isn't a good idea.

The physical stat changes are a pretty significant buff. A Form with +23 grapple or whatever is suddenly going to have a lot more grapple due to adding the druid's original strength. Sounds OP, considering Wildshape is already fantastic.

The mental stat thing is also pretty ripe for abuse, plus from a role-play perspective, going down to 2 int means you're suddenly too stupid to take advantage of your wisdom score.

The change from HD is also concerning, imo, since CR is so whacky at times. Just look at the Monster Manual 2, some monsters who are lower CR are more challenging than creatures with higher CR.

I don't mean to be mean, the ideas are interesting, but I'm just being honest and frank about my initial thoughts. Ofc, I haven't play tested it or anything, so my concerns may not even be valid.

[Coidzor]

The physical stat changes are a pretty significant buff. A Form with +23 grapple or whatever is suddenly going to have a lot more grapple due to adding the druid's original strength. Sounds OP, considering Wildshape is already fantastic.

The mental stat thing is also pretty ripe for abuse, plus from a role-play perspective, going down to 2 int means you're suddenly too stupid to take advantage of your wisdom score.

Well, the idea there being that they'd have to put more points into Intelligence to prevent themselves from losing too much of themselves to be useful in a fight and that they couldn't dump strength completely, as a 1 or 3-base strength isn't going to yield as good of a result as a 10, regardless of whether you add 20 or 10 to it, or 2 or 4 in the case of more minor, earlier forms.

Of course, my main problem there is in assuming point-buy when I never can quite get as good a grasp on it as I should because my group refuses to use it for whatever reason.


The change from HD is also concerning, imo, since CR is so whacky at times. Just look at the Monster Manual 2, some monsters who are lower CR are more challenging than creatures with higher CR.

Indeed, I was curious about whether there were any creatures along those lines that would necessitate the 4.D. scenario.


I don't mean to be mean, the ideas are interesting, but I'm just being honest and frank about my initial thoughts. Ofc, I haven't play tested it or anything, so my concerns may not even be valid.

No worries, mostly just curious about the realities of something that occurred to me while passing out while reading SonofZeal's thread about wildshape and newbie players.

[Curious]

Or you could, you know, use the Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid#TOC-Wild-Shape-Su-) wildshape, which does basically everything you just said.

[Coidzor]

Or you could, you know, use the Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid#TOC-Wild-Shape-Su-) wildshape, which does basically everything you just said.

I dunno, upon examining it, it seems like Pathfinder makes it so that wildshaping for multiple attacks makes it like TWFing without an extra damage source and is almost completely worthless except for movement and stealth forms.

[ericgrau]

I dunno how good PF is at wildshape, but at least they put some work into it. Just pulling some numbers off the top of your head can turn out to be so ridiculously overpowered/underpowered it's unplayable, as pointed out with the bear.

[Coidzor]

I dunno how good PF is at wildshape, but at least they put some work into it. Just pulling some numbers off the top of your head can turn out to be so ridiculously overpowered/underpowered it's unplayable, as pointed out with the bear.

Now that's just unfair. I wasn't saying anyone should use what I've put forth, nor have I even suggested I was considering it for use in my own game.

Much more of a thought experiment at this point.

[ericgrau]

Ya but don't they already have a set of numbers for you to use? Might as well use those because it'd take forever to find better ones. If you meant you only disliked the TWF part then sorry about that. You could try to make minor changes to it without getting too complicated. Then it's a lot harder to mess up. If anything I might try to make things slightly weaker than PF as the system seems to have a little power creep.

Again, I don't think PF is necessarily the greatest, but it's been played enough where it can't be totally off the wall. Figuring out what ability scores, damage and number of attacks are fair at each level sounds like a royal pain. Better to at least have a baseline and adjust from there. Or if you're just musing then I suppose the method for someone with 1000 hours of free time would be to compare attack bonus, damage (and/or damage per round), hit points and AC to a fighter of similar level at each level and for each form (eep). Then make it slightly lower to account for versatility, sort of like an eldritch knight or a theurge.

[noparlpf]

Personally, I like the idea of 1A, but I also think it's too much of a buff. 1B might be flavorful, but might be better with not quite so much of a penalty to Int.

[Coidzor]

Ya but don't they already have a set of numbers for you to use? Might as well use those because it'd take forever to find better ones. If you meant you only disliked the TWF part then sorry about that. You could try to make minor changes to it without getting too complicated. Then it's a lot harder to mess up. If anything I might try to make things slightly weaker than PF as the system seems to have a little power creep.

True, it might serve as a better point of departure for a more perfect end result.


Again, I don't think PF is necessarily the greatest, but it's been played enough where it can't be totally off the wall. Figuring out what ability scores, damage and number of attacks are fair at each level sounds like a royal pain. Better to at least have a baseline and adjust from there.

My only real issue there is that Pathfinder doesn't seem to make that any more accessible without hours of number crunching, or borrowing the excel spreadsheets of someone who did spend the time number crunching, than 3.5 did. Unless I'm missing out on something, in which case I would love to be proven wrong and get my hands on that, as a general, fair-ish rubric for base capabilities as they progress in level would be wonderful.

But the closest I've ever seen have been, largely, the results of people taking the SRD/MM1 monsters, possibly with a few additives, and giving the average figures per CR the creature has.


Or if you're just musing then I suppose the method for someone with 1000 hours of free time would be to compare attack bonus, damage (and/or damage per round), hit points and AC to a fighter of similar level at each level and for each form (eep). Then make it slightly lower to account for versatility, sort of like an eldritch knight or a theurge.

I was kind of afraid of that, but I figured that there might be a few people with sufficient system mastery they could hazard a guess or who'd done so themselves back in the day when the CharOp types first started dismantling the system.

[golem1972]

It's a slight buff for a tier 1 class. I think it balances out by making it less attractive to dump physical attributes and making venerable age less attractive.

Two prestige classes work similarly to 1a, and a little of 1b.
Weretouched master from the Eberron campaign setting (pre-errata) added the chosen forms racial attribute bonuses to yours when you shifted.
Primeval from frostburn added your chosen forms racial attribute bonuses to yours also, but you took mental attribute penalties as you leveled up.

The one change / houserule we made was that changing constitution did not change your current hit points (as normal) but did change your max hit points. This way you could change forms, and then heal yourself up to your new hit points.

[DeAnno]

I like A for logic, and unless you are in a high Point Buy game, it isn't much of a buff since you can just wild clasp your ability enhancement gear anyway.

I've always found it annoying that from 1-4 Druids might want some Dex (and maybe Str, who knows!) but it becomes entirely useless after that. This would fix that problem at least. My favored solution would just be allowing Wild Shape from level 1 though, and maybe delaying the Companion to level 5.

[Coidzor]

It's a slight buff for a tier 1 class. I think it balances out by making it less attractive to dump physical attributes and making venerable age less attractive.

Hmm, had forgot to consider that angle. Venerable and/or Anthro Bat and such things that gimp physicals past just dumping them are pretty much out if one wants to be able to zilla up without being MAD enough to not dump physicals. Then again, if pointbuy then it cuts the price of higher mentals about as much as it increases the cost of keeping passable physicals, just going by venerable, doesn't it?


Two prestige classes work similarly to 1a, and a little of 1b.
Weretouched master from the Eberron campaign setting (pre-errata) added the chosen forms racial attribute bonuses to yours when you shifted.
Primeval from frostburn added your chosen forms racial attribute bonuses to yours also, but you took mental attribute penalties as you leveled up.

Well, I'd better check those out then, thank you.


The one change / houserule we made was that changing constitution did not change your current hit points (as normal) but did change your max hit points. This way you could change forms, and then heal yourself up to your new hit points.

Interesting...

[noparlpf]

The one change / houserule we made was that changing constitution did not change your current hit points (as normal) but did change your max hit points. This way you could change forms, and then heal yourself up to your new hit points.

I like this.

[Taelas]

1. A. is mostly a nerf, making the druid MAD, but it does open up the option of a Druid who neglects his Wisdom and boosts his Str to phenomenal levels. This strikes me as a rather bad idea.

Also, what happens to racial bonuses/penalties to those scores? It doesn't make sense to have them persist through a wild shape.

[noparlpf]

1. A. is mostly a nerf, making the druid MAD, but it does open up the option of a Druid who neglects his Wisdom and boosts his Str to phenomenal levels. This strikes me as a rather bad idea.

Also, what happens to racial bonuses/penalties to those scores? It doesn't make sense to have them persist through a wild shape.

Well, racial bonuses and penalties would probably be removed and swapped with the ones for the animal form, right? Then you can just take something with a ridiculously high racial Wis bonus and big racial physical penalties.

Alternatively, racial modifiers stay in place. The reasoning being that a stronger person could turn into a stronger animal. Racial modifiers factor into whether somebody is strong to start with.

[molten_dragon]

1. A. Instead of replacing one's physical ability scores with that of the creature that one turns into, apply the racial stat changes that take the simple array of 3 10s and 3 11s and turn it into the creature to the character's ability scores as a bonus for the duration of wild shape. So a druid who wildshapes into, a Dire Bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direBear.htm) gets Str +20, Dex +2, and Con +8 rather than Str 31, Dex 13, and Con 19, so dumping strength, say, 4 points to a 6 instead of a 10, would mean that instead of a Druid-Dire Bear with Str 31 or 30, it'd be a druid-dire bear with Str 26. Conversely, a druid who pumped strength to 16 would end up with Str 36

This would be a nerf, though a fairly minor one. At the moment one of a druid's strengths is that they are fairly SAD, really only relying heavily on wisdom and somewhat on constitution. Strength and dex can be completely dumped. This would change that, making druids more MAD by requiring them to pay a bit more attention to strength and dex if they want the same combat ability they had before.


B. How about instead of just modifying the physical scores, the mental ones were also modified. So that same druid turning into a Dire Bear gets -8 Int, +2 Wis, and +0 Cha. (Sudden vulnerabiliy to Int and possibly Cha damage as well as potentially buffed/diminished save DCs.)

Also a nerf for the same reason. Now all 6 ability scores are fairly important, due to most animals having fairly severe penalties to INT and CHA. Also remember that anything below INT 3 is animal intelligence, so if the druid wanted to remain sentient he would have to have a starting INT of at least 13 to turn into animals with an INT of 1. The only thing here that's a slight buff is that almost all animals have a buff to WIS, but that doesn't cancel out the huge INT and CHA penalties and becoming more MAD. This is relatively bad by itself, but is quite crippling in combination with 1A.


C. Both mental and physical change as in 1.B., except that the change can't take the druid's physical ability scores above that of the creature with a bonus and penalties can't drop a druid's physical ability score below that of the creature. So a Druid with 9 Int couldn't be dropped to 1 Int by turning into an animal with 2 Int and Druids can't knock themselves into a coma by wildshaping after taking Int damage/drain, but they also can't become stronger than the creatures they're transforming into because of their base physical strength. Due to the way things stack to the advantage of the players, items and spells that enhanced ability scores would apply after the wildshape caveat.

This one is just confusing. The way you have it written, you're saying that the physical ability scores can't go above or below what the animal has, so you aren't doing 1A at all, they would simply get the animal's ability score.

Or is it supposed to be that the physical ability scores can't go above the animal's and the mental ability scores can't go below the animal's? If that's the case, then it's a heavy nerf. It's slightly worse than simply doing 1A and 1B, since you've taken away the only beneficial part of 1A, and haven't really improved the bad things about 1B (namely that the druid is now reliant on all 6 ability scores, and they have to have an INT of at least 13 to turn into any animal and remain sentient).


2. A. Similar to 1.A., but instead apply the ability score modifiers of each of the creature being transformed into as bonuses to the relevant abilities of the creature being transformed. So that druid turning into a dire bear gets Str +10, Dex +1, Con +4. (edit: assume here that changes to Con will be like the barbarian's rage, in that it does increase one's HP total)

See explanation of 1A, except this is more of a nerf because the ability modifiers granted are halved. Even with a good starting strength this isn't going to get you anywhere near what most of the good animals have.


B. is to 2.A. as 1.B. is to 1.A., modifying mental as well as physical, so druid > Dire Bear gets Int -4, Wis +1, Cha +0 in addition to the physical modification. Still a significant hit to Int, but not cripplingly so if they're above average.

I'd still call this one a nerf, but not as bad. It still makes the druid more MAD, but at least you don't have to worry as much about being sentient, since the biggest INT penalty you could get is -5.


3. Druids can turn into advanced versions of creatures, but only the lowest HD version of each size category that the creature can be advanced to.

This one is a buff, but a very small one. There just aren't enough animals that grow a size category when they gain hit dice for it to have a large impact on the game.


4. Instead of a HD limitation, have it so that one can only transform into animals of CR =ECL-3 or CR=ECL-4, maybe CR=ECL-5.

This one's a lot harder to tell, due to CR not scaling the same way as HD does. If I had to take a guess I'd say that CR = Druid level-3 would be about on par with HD = Druid level, and CR = druid level-4 and druid level-5 would be nerfs of increasing severity.


4.A. Couple this with 1.B.

Nerf + Nerf = bigger Nerf


4.B. Couple this with 2.B.

See above.


4.C. Couple this with 3, but have it take an extra HD or 2 if that would increase the CR. (so, back to the Dire Bear example, a Druid can turn into ye olde CR 7 one one at ECL 11-13 and turn into an advanced to Huge, CR 10 Dire Bear at ECL 13-15)

Neutral at best, could be a bit of a nerf depending on exactly what penalty you applied to druid level to get the allowed CR.


4.D. The CR limitation and the Druid must have HD equal to the creature's HD.

See the analysis for 4. Probably a little more of a nerf due to adding more restrictions.

Overall, you've pretty much got nothing but nerfs here. The only thing which is unarguably a buff is 3, and that's a pretty small one. That's not necessarily a bad thing though, as druids could use a bit of nerfing. However doing all of these things would cripple them. I would say start with just 1A, and if you feel the need to nerf more possibly move to 2A. Stay away from 1B, 1C, and 2B. 3 isn't going to have much of an affect on your game regardless, and there doesn't seem to be much point in switching from a limitation based on HD to one based on CR. If you want them to have access to weaker creatures, just make the HD limit druid level-1 or druid level-2.

[golem1972]

Venerable age gives a +3 bonus to mental attributes and a -6 penalty to physical attributes.

I see it as the old wise shapechanger that is getting weaker with age, teaching his younger stronger apprentice that muscles aren't everything.

After all, tier 1's aren't there because of strength buffs.