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FearlessGnome
2011-11-19, 05:47 PM
Done to death, etc, but I've played a few campaigns and am starting to think about how to run a campaign of my own. Ideas for a storyline I have, but I'd like to tone down some of the most powerful classes (Because just saying Tier 1 & 2 classes are banned does not appeal).

Sorcerer game breaking is mostly managable by limiting the metamagic reduction they can make use of (as far as I know), but as for wizards, how would this work: Reducing the number of spell slots per spell level by 1, not allowing ACF combinations like Elf Generalist Domain Wizard, and slowing down their spell level progression to the same speed as sorcerers? This would still give them the ol' wizard strategic versatility, but make them actually pay for it, unlike some of the options they have right now. The game won't see levels 15+, so level 9 spells on their own won't be too much of a concern.

It wouldn't fix everything, but it would make it a start, at least. There would also be a rule stating "Don't be a ****", of course.

Clerics and Druids would need some kind of nerfing as well, but I'm mostly being annoyed with wizards for the moment. Opinions on these nerfs/other ideas people have used? I have also considered the possibility that I may be overthinking this, but there's quite a few players in this city who like to powergame, and I think I'd like to have a couple of nerfs ready before I start recruiting, as I'm likely to see at least one or two of them in the group.

Qwertystop
2011-11-19, 05:52 PM
Done to death, etc, but I've played a few campaigns and am starting to think about how to run a campaign of my own. Ideas for a storyline I have, but I'd like to tone down some of the most powerful classes (Because just saying Tier 1 & 2 classes are banned does not appeal).

Sorcerer game breaking is mostly managable by limiting the metamagic reduction they can make use of (as far as I know), but as for wizards, how would this work: Reducing the number of spell slots per spell level by 1, not allowing ACF combinations like Elf Generalist Domain Wizard, and slowing down their spell level progression to the same speed as sorcerers? This would still give them the ol' wizard strategic versatility, but make them actually pay for it, unlike some of the options they have right now. The game won't see levels 15+, so level 9 spells on their own won't be too much of a concern.

It wouldn't fix everything, but it would make it a start, at least. There would also be a rule stating "Don't be a ****", of course.

Clerics and Druids would need some kind of nerfing as well, but I'm mostly being annoyed with wizards for the moment. Opinions on these nerfs/other ideas people have used? I have also considered the possibility that I may be overthinking this, but there's quite a few players in this city who like to powergame, and I think I'd like to have a couple of nerfs ready before I start recruiting, as I'm likely to see at least one or two of them in the group.

Well, the rule "Don't be a ****" pretty much solves the problem. Ask them to please NOT solve all the problems on their own or otherwise outperform the entire party at once.

Removing/reducing metamagic mitigation only really hurts blasters, which are already poor.

Reducing the amount of spells a wizard gets doesn't help too much. Sorcerers can game-break just fine with their spells, just only in one or two ways. Normally, a Wizard's spells per day are pretty close to a Sorc's spells known, depending on ACFs. It really wouldn't help too much.

Eldan
2011-11-19, 05:55 PM
This comes up from time to time, again and again. I think, by now, the consensus is pretty much that, to reign in wizards, someone would have to rewrite most of the worst spells. And perhaps find a better mechanic for save-or-suck spells.

erikun
2011-11-19, 05:58 PM
Removing the free spells the Wizard gets per level, requiring expense to scribe spells, and not allowing the full magi-mart seems like it would resolve your problem. Heck, even with the magi-mart, just only make scrolls available rather than having every random NPC willingly allow cheap copying of their spellbooks.

On the other hand, I think you may be overthinking this. It doesn't sound like you even have any players who are abusing anything, so the general "Don't be a ****" should work out just fine - and anyone who will be isn't someone who will be stopped by your restrictions anyways.

ericgrau
2011-11-19, 06:13 PM
Don't allow spells that cross school boundaries or it boosts specialist wizards too much as they give up little. If that's ambiguous then pick the best fit and increase its level by 1 (unless the spell is already on the low end of its level in power). Watching out for other tricks like combos is good too, ya, as is asking the players to use common sense and not try to exploit loopholes, break the system, etc.

You could bump them down a level but then for any player who doesn't change their spell list obsessively it almost makes the wizard strictly worse than a sorcerer. All the sorc has to do is prepare the same general purpose spells a wizard might have on his general list and not only will he have more per day but also he can cast them in any numerical combination instead of 1 and exactly 1 of each. Plus there's spontaneous metamagic on top of that. So... depends how obsessive your gaming group is at preparing.

Or the short answer is, I agree, if they aren't being ***** then there's not much that needs to be changed, if anything.

Dr.Epic
2011-11-19, 06:17 PM
Every spell costs a certain amount of HP: 1 HP per spell level. They won't seem so powerful when casting some of their best spells is worth more HP than their HD. That, or just go the MSoMW and have each spell come with a side effect that harms them.

Emperor Tippy
2011-11-19, 06:18 PM
Strip the wizard and sorcerer from the game. Replace them with the Psion and either give them the Sor/Wiz spell list or leave them with the Psion spell list with Bestow Power removed. Possibly strip out the teleportation powers as well if you don't want to deal with that in your game.

If you want to nerf the wizard without basically throwing it out, require your approval for every single spell added to the wizards spell book and simply don't allow a large chunk of them.

If you want to rewrite the wizard to be balanced, have fun because you have to rewrite most of the magic system and spells from the ground up. Doing that just to the core spells alone is a major undertaking, doing it to all 3.5 isn't going to happen.

Just as an example of how big a task this is, of the 9th level spells you need to remove or alter 9 of the 24 spells.
Disjunction, Prismatic Sphere, Gate, Foresight, Teleportation Circle, Astral Projection, Shapechange, Time Stop, and Wish.

AslanCross
2011-11-19, 06:21 PM
Strip the wizard and sorcerer from the game. Replace them with the Psion and either give them the Sor/Wiz spell list or leave them with the Psion spell list with Bestow Power removed. Possibly strip out the teleportation powers as well if you don't want to deal with that in your game.

If you want to nerf the wizard without basically throwing it out, require your approval for every single spell added to the wizards spell book and simply don't allow a large chunk of them.

If you want to rewrite the wizard to be balanced, have fun because you have to rewrite most of the magic system and spells from the ground up. Doing that just to the core spells alone is a major undertaking, doing it to all 3.5 isn't going to happen.

Just as an example of how big a task this is, of the 9th level spells you need to remove or alter 9 of the 24 spells.
Disjunction, Prismatic Sphere, Gate, Foresight, Teleportation Circle, Astral Projection, Shapechange, Time Stop, and Wish.

This is sage advice. I think the "no grandstanding/limelight hogging" agreement fixes most problems, but from a mechanical standpoint, solutions tend to go either the "too little, too late" route or the "more trouble than it's worth" route. Replacing them with the Psion and Wilder might be most effective mechanically. Otherwise, don't bother.

Randomguy
2011-11-19, 06:36 PM
Make it so that players aren't aloud to have more than 1/2 of their levels in a tier 1 caster class at any given time, with prestige class level that advance spellcasting counting against that limit. So wizard 20 and cleric 20 aren't aloud but wizard 10/cleric 10 is. Also, make rainbow servant a 9 level class for classes that know every spell on their spell list, like beguiler and warmage.

ericgrau
2011-11-19, 06:43 PM
This is why I agree the "don't be a ****" rule covers almost everything. Mucking with the system excessively as an attempt to nerf ruins things far worse. No offense, as I'm sure there are 1,000 other ways to muck it up, but half caster progression is a good way to make life so bad that the game isn't even worth showing up to and playing until level 10 at minimum, and probably higher level than that. Lesser changes are fine though.

Noblesse
2011-11-19, 06:43 PM
Druid: shapeshift variant
Cleric: DMM removed
Wizards/Sorcerers... I like Tippy's thing of making them psions. But alternatively nerf open ended spells (alter-self, polymorph, shapechange) As far as the save or suck/lose spells like slow-- you could always make it so every round they get a new save to shake off the effects.

FearlessGnome
2011-11-19, 06:50 PM
Strip the wizard and sorcerer from the game. Replace them with the Psion and either give them the Sor/Wiz spell list or leave them with the Psion spell list with Bestow Power removed. Possibly strip out the teleportation powers as well if you don't want to deal with that in your game.I haven't learned much about Psionics yet. Does the system lend itself to better balance than spellcasting? I keep hearing about game breaking there as well, but... Are there simply fewer ways of breaking the universe with psionics?

Yahzi
2011-11-19, 06:55 PM
Here's an idea that gets back to the flavor of original D&D:

Allow wizards to memorize spells once per session.

They come in, they sit down, they pick their spells. That's it. For the rest of the night, that is all they have. If they need a different spell, they better have it on a scroll, or just make do.

The upside is, you you can be generous with spell interpretations. Once the wizard decides to cast a spell, you can let him/her/it shine.

On the downside, your wizard will need time to think and plan, and will require lots of information (possibly in the form of divinations). This time will be both in- and out- of game time. Not good for your typical 4-encounters a day three-months-to-20th lvl career.

Doc Roc
2011-11-19, 06:58 PM
Wizards are a fluff variant of sorcerers.
Clerics are a fluff variant of favored souls.
Druids are a fluff variant of spirit shamans.


Done. Frolic.

Emperor Tippy
2011-11-19, 07:02 PM
I haven't learned much about Psionics yet. Does the system lend itself to better balance than spellcasting? I keep hearing about game breaking there as well, but... Are there simply fewer ways of breaking the universe with psionics?
If you eliminate Bestow Power you pretty much kill every way to loop yourself into infinite power points.

There are a few tricks you can pull with Psionics that are broken (and arguably some of the flat out most powerful tricks in D&D, a.k.a. save game) but they all require a fairly high level, near total system mastery, and are relatively easy for the DM to say no to.

----
With the above caveats, Psionics is far less broken than magic and the few iffy areas are mostly where a power directly copied a broken spell.

The limited spell list (even if you are drawing straight from the Sor/Wiz list instead of the powers list you are limited to 36 powers known at level 20) also makes it much more viable for you as the DM to tweak spells/powers to fix any that appear broken in your games and far better judge what your party will do.

The augment options on powers and the ability to remove displays with a concentration check provide a kind of versatility that the sorcerer lacks.

---
Honestly, I think the best quick fix to Arcane casting in D&D is to remove the Sorcerer and Wizard and replace them with a Psion (possibly who draws from the Sor/Wiz list). It's what I use in a fair number of games.

---
And most of the mechanics of the Psionics system are avaible in the SRD.
http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm

That makes learning it relatively simple.
Oh, remember; you can not spend more power points on a power than your manifester level. Lot's of people new to the system forget that (which is where a lot of the idea that the system is broken comes from).

jseah
2011-11-19, 07:14 PM
On "rewriting the system", just as a friendly word from someone who actually tried that.
Well, not exactly. I didn't set out to rewrite D&D magic but the basic principles can be applied.


I'm four years into the project and its about 60% done. And presently its ah... 200+ A4 pages long? Around there?
And completely unplaytested too.


That's why people say its not feasible. =)

EDIT: also, a Doc Roc post! =O

Doc Roc
2011-11-19, 07:21 PM
On "rewriting the system", just as a friendly word from someone who actually tried that.
Well, not exactly. I didn't set out to rewrite D&D magic but the basic principles can be applied.


I'm four years into the project and its about 60% done. And presently its ah... 200+ A4 pages long? Around there?
And completely unplaytested too.


That's why people say its not feasible. =)

EDIT: also, a Doc Roc post! =O

Jseah: We, on the other hand, release on the 25th.


If you eliminate Bestow Power you pretty much kill every way to loop yourself into infinite power points.


Incarnum still offers a loop. And one word: Synchronicity.

Emperor Tippy
2011-11-19, 07:31 PM
Incarnum still offers a loop.
They do? Have to look that up, I really don't use Incarnum much at all.

And one word: Synchronicity.
Is a great power. It's powerful but it isn't game breaking.

Between Belts of Battle, Maneuvers, Celerity, Cunning Surge, etc. it's not anything particularly special.

Doc Roc
2011-11-19, 08:21 PM
They do? Have to look that up, I really don't use Incarnum much at all.

Is a great power. It's powerful but it isn't game breaking.

Between Belts of Battle, Maneuvers, Celerity, Cunning Surge, etc. it's not anything particularly special.

So... between the most powerful effects in the game, it's nothing special? Effects that are very commonly banned or heavily restricted? I'd still disagree. Synchronicity is a special kind of stupid even in that exalted company.

Emperor Tippy
2011-11-19, 08:57 PM
So... between the most powerful effects in the game, it's nothing special? Effects that are very commonly banned or heavily restricted? I'd still disagree. Synchronicity is a special kind of stupid even in that exalted company.

It's powerful, unquestionably. It can (with the expenditure of several feats and/or Affinity Field) be made broken.

But it's nothing special.

Wizards and Sorcerers already have Celerity, which basically does the exact same thing except it dazes you at the end.

Factotums have Cunning Surge, which basically does the exact same thing except that it can't be used to interrupt.

Anyone with a Belt of Battle can do the exact same thing once per day. And that's a mere 11K, when abusing Synchronicity requires multiple feats.

It's also relatively easy to ban "No, you can't take that". At need if the player abuses it. Or house rule a fix for it.

bloodtide
2011-11-19, 09:06 PM
Done to death, etc, but I've played a few campaigns and am starting to think about how to run a campaign of my own. Ideas for a storyline I have, but I'd like to tone down some of the most powerful classes (Because just saying Tier 1 & 2 classes are banned does not appeal).

I say the best way to do this is to change the game.

If your doing a 'standard low magic/low fantasy' D&D type setting, then yes spellcasters can cause problems. But by simply adding a bit of magic and fantasy to the setting, you can fix everything.

So don't have a town full of 1-3 level human commoners, have the town full of 1-3 level slaad commoners. The town is unchanged, except for the race of the folks that live there. So the town still has an inn where the characters can stay at, run by slaads. And the spellcasters can't do an easy charm person to get a free room.

Don't have the Archmages tower protected by Alarm, let him have a 'unknown' force field. Have the guards be giants. And so on.

This 'balances' out spellcasters just fine.

P.S. Also if you keep the players in the dark about game information, then spellcasters get limited. So even if a character has +100 ranks in Knowledge(everything), feel free to just tell them ''you have only heard a coupe stories about slaads and don't know much about them''(as opposed to giving them the Monster Manual, and telling them everything).

Qwertystop
2011-11-19, 09:21 PM
P.S. Also if you keep the players in the dark about game information, then spellcasters get limited. So even if a character has +100 ranks in Knowledge(everything), feel free to just tell them ''you have only heard a coupe stories about slaads and don't know much about them''(as opposed to giving them the Monster Manual, and telling them everything).

I mostly agree until this. If they have 100 ranks in Knowledge, then by definition they know an enormous amount about the material in that category. If you require the knowledge to be gained in-character instead of in backstory or during downtime, you shouldn't have let them gain those ranks, because that is what those ranks mean.

Douglas
2011-11-19, 09:24 PM
P.S. Also if you keep the players in the dark about game information, then spellcasters get limited. So even if a character has +100 ranks in Knowledge(everything), feel free to just tell them ''you have only heard a coupe stories about slaads and don't know much about them''(as opposed to giving them the Monster Manual, and telling them everything).
As a player, I would be seriously pissed with any DM that did that. If I have +100 in a knowledge skill then I had better damn well know practically everything in that category of knowledge because that's what having +100 knowledge means. If I don't know it with a bonus that high, the only reasonable justification for it is that NO ONE knows it, or so close as to make no difference. And for something like slaads, well, that's just not plausible unless you're running an "invasion from another dimension" plotline or similar and there has been no previous contact anywhere by anyone with the place the slaads are coming from.

Emperor Tippy
2011-11-19, 09:34 PM
As a player, I would be seriously pissed with any DM that did that. If I have +100 in a knowledge skill then I had better damn well know practically everything in that category of knowledge because that's what having +100 knowledge means. If I don't know it with a bonus that high, the only reasonable justification for it is that NO ONE knows it, or so close as to make no difference. And for something like slaads, well, that's just not plausible unless you're running an "invasion from another dimension" plotline or similar and there has been no previous contact anywhere by anyone with the place the slaads are coming from.

Agreed. Skill Points represent that in depth knowledge.

A DC 35 Knowledge (Physics) check is what wins you a Nobel prize.

If you have 20 points in Knowledge: The Planes then you will know pretty much everything there is to know about slaads (average check of 30, they don't have 20 HD).

bloodtide
2011-11-20, 12:14 AM
As a player, I would be seriously pissed with any DM that did that. If I have +100 in a knowledge skill then I had better damn well know practically everything in that category of knowledge because that's what having +100 knowledge means. If I don't know it with a bonus that high, the only reasonable justification for it is that NO ONE knows it, or so close as to make no difference. And for something like slaads, well, that's just not plausible unless you're running an "invasion from another dimension" plotline or similar and there has been no previous contact anywhere by anyone with the place the slaads are coming from.

This is one of the big flaws in 3X that over powers magic and makes problems in games. The character's encounter 'monster x'. They make a couple knowledge rolls and find out everything about the monster, especially it's abilities, what it's immune to and it's vulnerabilities. Then the spellcaster puts that information to good use and kills the monster in a round or two.

The problem is that knowledge DC's are way too low for the information and character's can get way too many ranks and bonuses. After about 7th level, the rolls are pointless as the character will always make it. And worse, something like knowledge(the planes), by the book, gives you exact and detailed first hand information about every single creature from every single plane in existence. Seems like a bit much, that the character studied up on every single creature in existence.

This simple skill check alone unbalances games. just compare: The characters go for battle to battle with the spellcaster always and perfectly knowing exactly what spell at cast to win the fight, so that no battle even takes more then five rounds. OR. The spellcaster has to just try by random trial and error to discover what spells work best against what foe, and battles can take ten rounds or more.

You will find that the martial player characters will have much more fun when the spellcasters don't absolutely know everything about everything. And, yes, sometimes a spellcaster will waste a spell on a monster that is immune to it, and then the party will have to fight the monster old school style......but that's part of the fun.

Doc Roc
2011-11-20, 12:24 AM
This is one of the big flaws in 3X that over powers magic and makes problems in games. The character's encounter 'monster x'. They make a couple knowledge rolls and find out everything about the monster, especially it's abilities, what it's immune to and it's vulnerabilities. Then the spellcaster puts that information to good use and kills the monster in a round or two.

The problem is that knowledge DC's are way too low for the information and character's can get way too many ranks and bonuses. After about 7th level, the rolls are pointless as the character will always make it. And worse, something like knowledge(the planes), by the book, gives you exact and detailed first hand information about every single creature from every single plane in existence. Seems like a bit much, that the character studied up on every single creature in existence.

This simple skill check alone unbalances games. just compare: The characters go for battle to battle with the spellcaster always and perfectly knowing exactly what spell at cast to win the fight, so that no battle even takes more then five rounds. OR. The spellcaster has to just try by random trial and error to discover what spells work best against what foe, and battles can take ten rounds or more.

You will find that the martial player characters will have much more fun when the spellcasters don't absolutely know everything about everything. And, yes, sometimes a spellcaster will waste a spell on a monster that is immune to it, and then the party will have to fight the monster old school style......but that's part of the fun.

Having spent years running PvP arenas where both sides were blind-matched with knowledge checks basically turned off, you'd be stunned how wrong you are. It enforces a different and much more apocalyptic approach to combat, but it does not deeply weaken magic as you were doubtless hoping.

Curmudgeon
2011-11-20, 01:08 AM
Things I'd do to try to head off trouble, which mostly ends up addressing Wizards and other Tier 1 spellcasters:

Ban all metamagic cost reducers, and "free" metamagic (Incantatrix in particular) is just never going to happen. All metamagic costs at least +1 level, including Invisible Spell.
Scrutinize individual spells. Don't let Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange be used for any form the PC doesn't have personal familiarity with (made a Spot check to see, and the required Knowledge check to identify). After all, the various Monster Manuals aren't part of those spells' entries, and letting player knowledge substitute for character knowledge is a sure route to trouble. Shatter's use of "solid" means "rigid, not flexible" rather than the anachronistic chemical definition "neither liquid nor gas". Enlarge Person increases your equipment weight 8 times, usually leading to an increase in encumbrance (slows you down if you were at a light load previously). Freedom of Movement requires the caster to bind a leather thong around the arm of the target, so you can't cast the spell with just a shield hand available. Telekinesis lets you use Violent Thrust to hurl weapons, but does not give you proficiency with these weapons, make melee weapons other than improvised for throwing, or change weapon range increments. You get the idea: just don't gloss over any spell details.
Restrict access to new spells. I like to make scrolls cost 5x as much, and appear in treasure 1/10th as often. Spellcasters almost never loan out their spellbooks, and the fees are at least 10x as high as standard. Beyond the 2 free spells per level, Wizards really have to work to find new magic.
Here's the big one: never use dice for any part of character development, and adjust the points available for point buy based on the Tier System for Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0):
15 Point Buy (This Is Where The Wizard Is.)
22 Point Buy
28 Point Buy
32 Point Buy
40 Point Buy (This Is Where The Monk Is.)
You Might Try 50 Here, But Really: Just Skip Characters This Weak.
This assumes PCs are going to start in their primary class. If they change the primary class in later levels they'd retroactively lose points if necessary, but would never retroactively gain points.

jseah
2011-11-20, 03:47 AM
If you have a solid foundation, then you can draw the limits of spells without houseruling.
http://www.brandonsanderson.com/article/40/Sandersons-First-Law

You just need a definitive theory of magic and rewrite...

Oh. Right. =P

Doc Roc
2011-11-20, 05:58 AM
If you have a solid foundation, then you can draw the limits of spells without houseruling.
http://www.brandonsanderson.com/article/40/Sandersons-First-Law

You just need a definitive theory of magic and rewrite...

Oh. Right. =P

We got your back (https://docs.google.com/document/d/141gzjNB5ydrCRIeOQn_JngyBaTj_7SmyP7sDPvw9BVc/edit).

Viktyr Gehrig
2011-11-20, 08:55 AM
High level spellcasters have always been head-and-shoulders above high level non-spellcasters in terms of relative power in D&D. The reason that they are so much worse in 3.X D&D, aside from the invention of new spells, is that the system changes between AD&D and 3e almost entirely removed the strengths of the mundane classes and the weaknesses of the casters.

Speaking only to the latter, these changes include:

Reduced XP requirements.
Higher ability scores and more bonus spells for high scores.
More spells per day and more flexibility in spell preparation.
The ability to cast spells after taking damage.
Fewer opportunities to damage spellcasters during casting. (Initiative and the action economy.)
The ability to cast multiple spells per round.
Metamagic feats.

This leaving out things like item creation and prestige classes, since those also contribute-- albeit less so-- to the power of non-casters.

If you want to bring spellcasters back down to pre-3.X power levels, it would be a lot easier to attack some of these than trying to weaken all of the major spells across multiple supplements. You won't really be able to accomplish this without making so many changes that you are essentially playing AD&D, though, and high level casters were still overpowered in those rules.

Really, the gentleman's agreement is the only effective solution to this problem without eliminating high level magic entirely, like 4e.

Dr.Epic
2011-11-20, 08:58 AM
Every time a wizards casts a spell they burst into flames and take 1d6xspell level fire damage.:smalltongue:

vitkiraven
2011-11-20, 10:58 AM
Every time a wizards casts a spell they burst into flames and take 1d6xspell level fire damage.:smalltongue:
Or just give every spell a cost similar to the ones to cast spells in the Call of Cthulhu d20? :smallwink:

Doc Roc
2011-11-20, 01:04 PM
Every time a wizards casts a spell they burst into flames and take 1d6xspell level fire damage.:smalltongue:

Which is why the first thing I'll do each day would be shapechange into something with regeneration that isn't overcome by fire.

Flickerdart
2011-11-20, 01:11 PM
Step 1: Cast Resist Energy(fire). Take 2d6 points of fire damage.
Step 2: Cast Extended Energy Immunity (Fire). Take no points of damage because of Resist Energy.
Step 3: Every 48 hours, cast Extended Energy Immunity (Fire) again.

vitkiraven
2011-11-20, 01:13 PM
Step 1: Cast Resist Energy(fire). Take 2d6 points of fire damage.
Step 2: Cast Extended Energy Immunity (Fire). Take no points of damage because of Resist Energy.
Step 3: Every 48 hours, cast Extended Energy Immunity (Fire) again.

Now the real question is, does the Fire prompt a required Concentration Check, and does Metamagic increase the amount of damage that one would take, i.e., increase a 2nd level to 3rd, and now you take 3d6?
:smallbiggrin:

Doc Roc
2011-11-20, 01:25 PM
Now the real question is, does the Fire prompt a required Concentration Check, and does Metamagic increase the amount of damage that one would take, i.e., increase a 2nd level to 3rd, and now you take 3d6?
:smallbiggrin:

So far from relevant. If you fail that kind of concentration check, your wizard deserves death.

Draz74
2011-11-20, 01:30 PM
Strip the wizard and sorcerer from the game. Replace them with the Psion and either give them the Sor/Wiz spell list or leave them with the Psion spell list with Bestow Power removed. Possibly strip out the teleportation powers as well if you don't want to deal with that in your game.

If you want to nerf the wizard without basically throwing it out, require your approval for every single spell added to the wizards spell book and simply don't allow a large chunk of them.

If you want to rewrite the wizard to be balanced, have fun because you have to rewrite most of the magic system and spells from the ground up. Doing that just to the core spells alone is a major undertaking, doing it to all 3.5 isn't going to happen.

Just as an example of how big a task this is, of the 9th level spells you need to remove or alter 9 of the 24 spells.
Disjunction, Prismatic Sphere, Gate, Foresight, Teleportation Circle, Astral Projection, Shapechange, Time Stop, and Wish.


I haven't learned much about Psionics yet. Does the system lend itself to better balance than spellcasting? I keep hearing about game breaking there as well, but... Are there simply fewer ways of breaking the universe with psionics?

The Psionics system does indeed lend itself to less game-breaking than Spellcasting. However, just replacing Wizards with Psions doesn't solve your entire problem. There are a few ways Psions can still break the game, and a number of iconic spells that psionics doesn't duplicate, which may leave your wizard not feeling like a wizard.

Fortunately, pretty much ALL of these problems have already been solved by Ernir in his spellcasting fix here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194002). He has converted all of Core spellcasting over to Psionics mechanics, getting rid of all badly-broken stuff along the way. Just use his Wizard and Sorcerer and Cleric, and they should all be "fixed" nicely.

If you want to include non-Core spells, you will still have to homebrew conversions of them into psionics-based mechanics, though. (And the Druid might still be broken, with its other crazy class features. I haven't looked closely at Ernir's Druid to see if he nerfed it.)

Doc Roc
2011-11-20, 01:31 PM
Have we been over Ernir's status as a god among men?

We should spend some time going over that.

Rapidghoul
2011-11-20, 01:46 PM
Make it so that players aren't aloud to have more than 1/2 of their levels in a tier 1 caster class at any given time, with prestige class level that advance spellcasting counting against that limit.

This is like an option I explored. I really like it as an alternative to just banning Tier 1's out right.
There's also a neat way of dealing with it here (Option #2) (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=bc18425e5fa73d30e4a9a54889edf4 4e&topic=1002.0) where you give lower tier classes gestalt levels while the higher tiers stay the same.
I also messed around with prestige-tier 1 classes kind of like the prestige bard so players need to meet entry-requirements before leveling.

For my homebrew campaign, wizards got split into various classes based on different schools of magic, essentially making them super-focused-specialists in one or two schools simultaneously and not having access to the others. It helps encourage lower tier options that fill similar niches (like beguiler or dread necromancer).
For example, the blaster type class only gets access to evocation and conjuration spells (and they get something like Arcane Attunement from duskblade so they can still cast detect magic, read magic, and so forth). The buffer-protector class can cast from abjuration and transmutation schools but miss out on offensive stuff. So far it's worked out pretty well, reigning in the game-breaking-ness of a standard wizard while keeping a very strong flavor for each.

Frosty
2011-11-20, 01:58 PM
Strip the wizard and sorcerer from the game. Replace them with the Psion and either give them the Sor/Wiz spell list or leave them with the Psion spell list with Bestow Power removed. Possibly strip out the teleportation powers as well if you don't want to deal with that in your game.

If you want to nerf the wizard without basically throwing it out, require your approval for every single spell added to the wizards spell book and simply don't allow a large chunk of them.

If you want to rewrite the wizard to be balanced, have fun because you have to rewrite most of the magic system and spells from the ground up. Doing that just to the core spells alone is a major undertaking, doing it to all 3.5 isn't going to happen.

Just as an example of how big a task this is, of the 9th level spells you need to remove or alter 9 of the 24 spells.
Disjunction, Prismatic Sphere, Gate, Foresight, Teleportation Circle, Astral Projection, Shapechange, Time Stop, and Wish.
If you don't want to ban Sorcerer/Wizard, then how about as a quick alternative, doing the following:

1) Spells from the PHB only
2) The Illusion and Divination schools do NOT exist, and neither do their spells, except for Detect Magic (and read magic, if it is Divination). No need for See Invisible if Invisibility doesn't exist. A lot of the miss-chance spells are gone too like Mirror Image and Blur
3) Blink, Contingency, and anything in the Alter Self/Polymorph family of spells or similar (except Baleful Polymorph. That's allowed) are banned
4) No metamagic reducers...EVER. No free metamagic...EVER.
5) 9th level spells DO NOT EXIST. 9th level spell slots can be used for metamagic'ed spells of 8th level or lower

This should take care of most of the cheese, and a DM should have an easier time saying no the anything else ridiculous.

JaronK
2011-11-20, 02:36 PM
One solution I've been playing with is forced specialization. All Wizards must specialize in a single school, and can't use any other schools. If you like, you can for free give them all the variant abilities from UA for specialists as well as the Esoterica abilities from the Master Specialist PrC (as though he'd started the class at level 5)... that actually makes the class a little more interesting as far as class features go, but significantly effects their power. It's not perfectly balanced (at least, each variant with each other) since certain schools (conjuration, transmutation) are a long stronger than others (like Divination). But Illusionists do get Shadow Conjuration/Evocation, and Enchanters get limited leadership, and Necromancy has a lot of potential.

JaronK