Shadowrun 4th Healing Question

[HMS Invincible]

It says on page 242 that you can't heal someone for more boxes than your first aid rating. It also says that medkits add a bonus dice to your dice pool. Lastly, it says on 243 that if you are untrained, you can simply let the medkit rating in place of your skill.
How much does an untrained person with logic 5 vs a trained person with first aid 1, logic 5 heal?
Assume they both get 5 successes, and medkit 5.
See the problem? Why would someone who is untrained be able to heal more than someone who has at least some training in first aid? Could I just not buy first aid, or just assist the medkit in replacing my first aid skill? Then it would be able to heal up to 5 boxes of damage. It's something I'm going to bring up with my DM but maybe you guys have a simpler answer.

[Seerow]

It says on page 242 that you can't heal someone for more boxes than your first aid rating. It also says that medkits add a bonus dice to your dice pool. Lastly, it says on 243 that if you are untrained, you can simply let the medkit rating in place of your skill.
How much does an untrained person with logic 5 vs a trained person with first aid 1, logic 5 heal?
Assume they both get 5 successes, and medkit 5.
See the problem? Why would someone who is untrained be able to heal more than someone who has at least some training in first aid? Could I just not buy first aid, or just assist the medkit in replacing my first aid skill? Then it would be able to heal up to 5 boxes of damage. It's something I'm going to bring up with my DM but maybe you guys have a simpler answer.

The person with less training than the medkit rating can let the medkit just operate on its own without him. Yes, this does make first aid a useless skill to actually spend points on unless you are maxing it out.

[LibraryOgre]

The person with less training than the medkit rating can let the medkit just operate on its own without him. Yes, this does make first aid a useless skill to actually spend points on unless you are maxing it out.

...or get stuck without a medkit.

[Seerow]

...or get stuck without a medkit.

How often does that happen? I've yet to see it come up, probably because sticking the players in a scenario without their gear is basically telling your players they should be playing mages just in case it ever happens again.

[LibraryOgre]

How often does that happen? I've yet to see it come up, probably because sticking the players in a scenario without their gear is basically telling your players they should be playing mages just in case it ever happens again.

I disagree. There's always times when you might have them trapped without equipment... including the classic run, Stuffer Shack.

EDIT: To expand on this: Shadowrun tends to be a proactive game... we have a job, we build a plan, we carry out the plan. There's reactivity in that you're frequently having to adjust the plan on the fly, but it tends towards proactive solutions.

However, as Stuffer Shack shows, the game doesn't have to be that way, especially as PCs get more notoriety. There's the possibility that the Stuffer Shack you're in gets hit by a gang. There's the possibility that someone is gunning for YOU. There's also the plans that call for subtlety and don't allow you to go running in, loaded for bear and packing a convenient medkit (while a size isn't given, I'd say they're easily the size of a lunchbox, if not a briefcase).

[Seerow]

I disagree. There's always times when you might have them trapped without equipment... including the classic run, Stuffer Shack.

EDIT: To expand on this: Shadowrun tends to be a proactive game... we have a job, we build a plan, we carry out the plan. There's reactivity in that you're frequently having to adjust the plan on the fly, but it tends towards proactive solutions.

However, as Stuffer Shack shows, the game doesn't have to be that way, especially as PCs get more notoriety. There's the possibility that the Stuffer Shack you're in gets hit by a gang. There's the possibility that someone is gunning for YOU. There's also the plans that call for subtlety and don't allow you to go running in, loaded for bear and packing a convenient medkit (while a size isn't given, I'd say they're easily the size of a lunchbox, if not a briefcase).

The way I see it, a GM trying to catch his PCs with their pants down where the gear dependent dudes have no gear onhand or nearby is pretty much deciding deliberately to turn the game into magicrun. Because those PCs probably devoted a lot of bp to their gear and the use of it. It's something that you can maybe get away with doing once in a while, but I consider dropping a run where a gear focused character can't use his stuff equivalent to dropping a run that takes place inside a rating 10 background count with a mage in the group.

[LibraryOgre]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this point.

Part of the vulnerability of being gear-dependent is that you are gear-dependent, and you can't always get away with the sweetest gear. You can't jander down to Shini-Walgreens and pick up exploding APDS ammo. You can't walk around Seattle with a sniper rifle or assault cannon. This is why a lot of people work to minimize their external dependence... why combat-types have Unarmed or Close Combat skill groups, so they're not helpless when they're caught away from their gear.

[HMS Invincible]

With medkits, I have 3 courses of actions, I use first aid with medkit assisting me, I set up medkit by itself and I do other stuff, or I assist the medkit.
Action 1 gets 6 logic, 1 first aid, and 5 medkit to meet a threshold 2 with a max of 1 box of healing.
Action 2 gets a die pool of medkit 5 to meet a threshold 2 with a max of 3 boxes of healing.
Action 3 gets 5 medkit, and 6 logic die pool to get a max of 10 boxes of healing.

Does this mean I should always pretend I'm untrained to get the max heal out of an attempt?
Depending on your viewpoints, I can either ask the DM for my 4 points of first aid back, or tell him I'm using the medkit untrained. Maybe I'll ask the DM to say that medkits add to your skill instead of replacing it, though shadowrun precedents lean the other way with skillsofts/autosofts.

[Seerow]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this point.

Part of the vulnerability of being gear-dependent is that you are gear-dependent, and you can't always get away with the sweetest gear. You can't jander down to Shini-Walgreens and pick up exploding APDS ammo. You can't walk around Seattle with a sniper rifle or assault cannon. This is why a lot of people work to minimize their external dependence... why combat-types have Unarmed or Close Combat skill groups, so they're not helpless when they're caught away from their gear.


So what you're saying is you play magicrun. That's fine. But it is a very huge bias in favor of magic characters because their resources are always available, while you are regularly invalidating large parts of the abilities of any character that uses gear. It might make sense from a realism perspective, but from pure gameplay, it makes me inclined to never play anyone who uses any gear at all. (Or have a over the top optimized sleight of hand and just carry heavy weaponry everywhere anyway, though that's still a waste of resources to be able to do what magic can do for free and better)

[hiryuu]

So what you're saying is you play magicrun. That's fine. But it is a very huge bias in favor of magic characters because their resources are always available, while you are regularly invalidating large parts of the abilities of any character that uses gear. It might make sense from a realism perspective, but from pure gameplay, it makes me inclined to never play anyone who uses any gear at all. (Or have a over the top optimized sleight of hand and just carry heavy weaponry everywhere anyway, though that's still a waste of resources to be able to do what magic can do for free and better)

Mages also spend ridiculous craploads of karma to do anything. Seriously, they have to spend karma to be allowed to spend karma. You can also screw up a mage by just stopping him to see if he has a (fake) license to practice magic. Or by throwing a petite brume. Or trying to cast or summon in an area with a background count. Or dealing with Counterspell specialists. Astral barriers, physical barriers, and salt water aquariums stuffed with the right strains of FAB will stop mages cold. Even magic can be stopped or taken away, and it doesn't require another mage to do so.

Essentially, having that likelihood of possibly, maybe, being caught in a situation where you will not have access all your gear does not equal magicrun at all because a mage can also be caught in situations where they can't rely on their magic. It also does not mean your character is useless. If we're using a gameplay perspective to measure anything at all, and you can never be caught in a situation where you might have to improvise, then there's no reason, period, to ever play an adept.

[Reluctance]

More importantly, while a session without your best toys is poor GMing, a scene without your best toys is nothing to get excited over.

Although it's more of a theory thing than practice. In theory, your characters will go through the day without most of their gear simply because heavy ordinance is a hassle in day-to-day life. In practice, players will try to load up as much as humanly possible the instant they're asked what they have on them. Not having your medkit handy during downtime isn't going to affect you if downtime doesn't include situations where you'd need to use your medkit.

[LibraryOgre]

So what you're saying is you play magicrun. That's fine. But it is a very huge bias in favor of magic characters because their resources are always available, while you are regularly invalidating large parts of the abilities of any character that uses gear. It might make sense from a realism perspective, but from pure gameplay, it makes me inclined to never play anyone who uses any gear at all. (Or have a over the top optimized sleight of hand and just carry heavy weaponry everywhere anyway, though that's still a waste of resources to be able to do what magic can do for free and better)

Not in the least. I'm saying that being gear-dependent sometimes means you're without gear, just like being magic dependent sometimes means you're without magic (background count, all the wrong spells, whatever). It shouldn't be an all-the-time thing, certainly... but one of the most fun parts of KOTOR for me was when you get captured on the Leviathan, and your 20th level character has to flail around naked and unarmed until you steal something better. It's not a permanent condition... probably less than 20 minutes if you know what you're doing... but it's enough that you realize "Yes, I'm gear dependent".

If you're playing a samurai and are stuck without your big guns, what do you do? Well, you can probably pop your spurs and fight like Wolverine for a little bit... but your first job is to get armed. You don't have your smart-linked, APDS-firing, customized HK... but the guard has a heavy pistol with a laser sight. Boom. You're a step up. Get the next best weapon. Then the one after that.

If you need your toys to feel fulfilled playing a samurai, I have to wonder why you ever do, or if your game operates under a gentleman's agreement of "No one will ever be without their neat toys, ever."

[PresentPresence]

You haven't even gone into the realm of technomancers threading up their Command CF and having a sprite Assist Operation while a Machine sprite uses Diagnosis. Also Edge. And Widgets. You don't really want to see the dice pool, but it usually sufficient enough to heal more boxes than people can even have.

[HMS Invincible]

You haven't even gone into the realm of technomancers threading up their Command CF and having a sprite Assist Operation while a Machine sprite uses Diagnosis. Also Edge. And Widgets. You don't really want to see the dice pool, but it usually sufficient enough to heal more boxes than people can even have.

Doesn't that require x turns per x boxes that you heal? Also, does that count initiative passes? Like if I have 4 passes, can I heal 4 boxes in 1 turn?