Please help make a tier-0 class. You'll see what I mean.

[enderlord99]

I would like a new base class a NPC of which is capable of being a tough fight for a group of 4 moderate-to-high optimization, equal leveled (to it and each other) Gestalt characters. The NPC is on working its own (no allies or minions), and the class takes up both "sides" of the gestalt. The class should be focused on Arcane magic, and should:


grant secrets of from all 3 Towers of High Sorcery (dragonlance)
grant an Archmage's High Arcana, though at a reduced rate
count as a Spell Savant of half level for the purpose of Legacy Weapons (or whatever those things are called)
have Knowledge and Music as a bard
have other class features, too


The character is a BBEG, and I would like the class to be incredibly over-the-top. Also, the game is very Epic-level, and the character has really high (even for his level) mental ability scores.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Lightning Warrior, but only if you give it familiar and specialization and all the class features you specified.

[Mando Knight]

Lightning Warrior, but only if you give it familiar and specialization and all the class features you specified.

While recognizing the joke, an animal companion might be better. Not sure, though, since the familiar would be stronger than a Wizard's or Sorcerer's familiar due to being derived from the Lightning Warrior's stats...

But a tier 0 class should definitely have the option of having a panther or such familiar.

[Seerow]

The big thing you're going to want is a ridiculous amount of action economy. If this guy is facing 4 high op epic level gestalt PCs, he needs both a ton of defenses, and a huge number of actions to keep up. You want a minimum of 3 full turns every round, depending on the quality of the group, you may want that number pushed as high as 6-8. You also want immunity to just about everything, high saves, and lots of HP. And probably want to throw on elusive target or an equivalent ability just in case there's a charger in the party with NI damage.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Make sure it has the ability to take standard actions at least once per round outside its turn. Help him take on multiple PCs by himself.

[enderlord99]

Wait... Mando Knight responded to my thread?

THE Mando Knight?

AWESOME!

Could he, or someone else, stat out the class fully? Please?

[gooddragon1]

-Casts as a sorceror (but can spontaneous metamagic without increasing casting time) and same spell slots as a sorceror.
-Can learn spells of scrolls as a wizard regardless of the list (not into a spell book, into his mind with no cost and no limit other than the time to memorize them).
-d12 HD
-All saves good
-Full BAB
-Fighter weapon and armor proficiencies
-Can cast in armor with no spell failure chance
-No armor check penalties, armors are always treated as light armor, no max dex when wearing armor
-Has something like divine metamagic in that he can sacrifice a pool of points to reduce the slot adjustment of a spell affected by metamagic (set the pool to increase per level as you see fit).
-Intelligent stone golem companion (Improves as Skeletal Companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#skeletalMinion) does) and gains the benefits that a familiar (same int as a familiar) does as well.
Need more?
-Casting funtions off intelligence and give an AC, Saves, and attack roll bonus also based of intelligence.
-Spell Resistance equal to level + 10
-Mettle
-Evasion
-Improved Evasion
-Uncanny Dodge
-Improved Uncanny Dodge
-Construct Immunities with none of the drawbacks
-Can cast 1 spell per round as an immediate action or something

Am I reaching the tier -1 level now?

Alternatively, the beholder mage from lords of madness is recognized as a tier 0 class.

Both the above class and the beholder mage can go toe to toe in the action economy. Have some transmute mud to rock spells to fully heal the stone golem companion when it gets damaged.

[Yitzi]

If you really want to make it a tough fight for a particular group of significantly optimized characters, the best way is probably not to just pile on the powers. Instead, identify the abilities that make them above tier 3, and give him the means to shut them down. So if they use combat control, give him Freedom of Movement and Dimension Door at-will. If they rely on action economy, give him some sort of Slow ability. If they try to end the fight in one round with save-or-lose spells, give him stuff like Mind Blank and Death Ward. Don't cut off all their options (that would make it no fun for them), just the top "end the fight in one round" ones.

Then give him a decent offense and general defenses (including the features you mentioned) so he can challenge them, and it should be a fight to remember.

[NeoSeraphi]

Then give him a decent offense and general defenses (including the features you mentioned) so he can challenge them, and it should be a fight to remember.

Alternatively, make her a frail-looking redheaded sorcerer chick with a cute smile and sincere eyes. Then halfway through the fight, have her shapechange into a titan. That will be a real fight to remember.

As for tier 0 abilities, the ability to summon minions who break the action economy is definitely tier 0. Grant her the ability to summon a greater beholder as a swift action, at-will. A greater beholder is like a beholder but with much more awesome eye rays (epic hold monster instead of sleep, maximized greater harm instead of inflict moderate wounds) and say, doubled hit dice, double ability scores, and a doubled range on the antimagic eye cone.

[Noctis Vigil]

My suggestion is to look at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200866) and try to make it a base class, plus some other abilities as suggested here. I also think you may want a custom race that resists most one shot kills and jacks his stats way up. Maybe some sort of super-human offshoot of a normal race.

And the "fight to remember" bit is important; the big bad in my epic campaign I'm writing is a 12 year old girl who single-handedly beat down the gods and has the Tarrasque as a guard dog. Make it strong enough to last. A boss fight should last a long time; the last one I threw out lasted 2 sessions, and the group still remembers it, mostly because it had most of them in the single-digit HP range and cost all their spells before the new guy got lucky with his Fighter. General guideline I use is that a boss should be 3-4 CR higher than the current party, maybe more if they're highly optimized (my groups rarely are).

[Yitzi]

Alternatively, make her a frail-looking redheaded sorcerer chick with a cute smile and sincere eyes. Then halfway through the fight, have her shapechange into a titan. That will be a real fight to remember.

Well, unless the party (who I understand to be at least tier 2, with the abilities that implies) manage to end the fight in 1 round, or at least with a potentially-1-round ability, thereby making it impossible to determine when "halfway through the fight" will be.

Shapechanging into a titan is a possibility (although an epic sorcerer probably won't get all that much from the shapechange), but you still need the counters to the party's tier 2 abilities in order to even force the fight to go on long enough to be appropriately epic.

[Zeta Kai]

-Casts as a sorceror (but can spontaneous metamagic without increasing casting time) and same spell slots as a sorceror.
-Can learn spells of scrolls as a wizard regardless of the list (not into a spell book, into his mind with no cost and no limit other than the time to memorize them).
-d12 HD
-All saves good
-Full BAB
-Fighter weapon and armor proficiencies
-Can cast in armor with no spell failure chance
-No armor check penalties, armors are always treated as light armor, no max dex when wearing armor
-Has something like divine metamagic in that he can sacrifice a pool of points to reduce the slot adjustment of a spell affected by metamagic (set the pool to increase per level as you see fit).
-Intelligent stone golem companion (Improves as Skeletal Companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#skeletalMinion) does) and gains the benefits that a familiar (same int as a familiar) does as well.
Need more?
-Casting funtions off intelligence and give an AC, Saves, and attack roll bonus also based of intelligence.
-Spell Resistance equal to level + 10
-Mettle
-Evasion
-Improved Evasion
-Uncanny Dodge
-Improved Uncanny Dodge
-Construct Immunities with none of the drawbacks
-Can cast 1 spell per round as an immediate action or something

Am I reaching the tier -1 level now?

Alternatively, the beholder mage from lords of madness is recognized as a tier 0 class.

Both the above class and the beholder mage can go toe to toe in the action economy. Have some transmute mud to rock spells to fully heal the stone golem companion when it gets damaged.

Based on that:

Majilocalypse
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Reflex Save|Will Save|Special
1st|+1|+2|+2|+2|Spell Resistance
2nd|+2|+3|+3|+3|Evasion
3rd|+3|+3|+3|+3|Uncanny Dodge
4th|+4|+4|+4|+4|Improved Familiar
5th|+5|+4|+4|+4|Bonus Feat
6th|+6/+1|+5|+5|+5|Improved Evasion
7th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+5|Improved Uncanny Dodge
8th|+8/+3|+6|+6|+6|Mettle
9th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+6|Greater Familiar
10th|+10/+5|+7|+7|+7|Bonus Feat
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+7|Reduced Spell Failure
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+8|Ephemeral Armor
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+8|Lesser Immunities
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+9|+9|Superior Familiar
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+9|Bonus Feat
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+10|Negated Spell Failure
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+10|Pool of Arcana
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+11|Greater Immunities
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+11|Ultimate Familiar
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+12|Bonus Feat
[/table]

Spells Per Day
{table=head]Level|0SL|1SL|2SL|3SL|4SL|5SL|6SL|7SL|8SL|9SL
1st|5|3||||||||
2nd|6|4||||||||
3rd|7|5||||||||
4th|7|6|3|||||||
5th|7|7|4|||||||
6th|7|7|5|3||||||
7th|7|7|6|4||||||
8th|7|7|7|5|3|||||
9th|7|7|7|6|4|||||
10th|7|7|7|7|5|3||||
11th|7|7|7|7|6|4||||
12th|7|7|7|7|7|5|3|||
13th|7|7|7|7|7|6|4|||
14th|7|7|7|7|7|7|5|3||
15th|7|7|7|7|7|7|6|4||
16th|7|7|7|7|7|7|7|5|3|
17th|7|7|7|7|7|7|7|6|4|
18th|7|7|7|7|7|7|7|7|5|3
19th|7|7|7|7|7|7|7|7|6|5
20th|7|7|7|7|7|7|7|7|7|7
[/table]

It still needs something to improve its action economy; perhaps, instead of those Wizard-like bonus feats, the Majilocalypse (as I dub it temporarily, until a better name comes along) could gain an extra standard action per round @ 5th/10th/15th/20th level. Thoughts? Comments? Reactions? This is as cheap & OP as I could make a class; any more & I'd be dipping into my own craziness about superhuman BAB/save progressions, along with some cheap form of I-Win buttons.

[Reluctance]

4e actually has good inspiration for this in the form of solos. Salient takeaways: immunities to the most common lose conditions and/or an ability to shake them off quickly, bonus actions to compensate for the action economy being so stacked against them, and ideally out of turn actions to avoid making turns too cyclical.

I mean, an omnigestalt is a trivially easy to make T0. It's also much trickier to balance between it getting dogpiled too early to make a properly climactic encounter, or chewing through PCs fast enough to TPK.

[NeoSeraphi]

He should be immune to [mind-affecting], [death], slow, petrification, paralysis, magical sleep, nausea, stun, daze, being held, and [fear].

Also, another fun way to screw the party is to have him cast imprisonment. Unless the party casters have freedom prepared, they just lost one of their men, and not even a miracle spell will get him back.

[Zeta Kai]

Yeah, just think of boss fights from near the end of any Final Fantasy game: cheap immunity to all status effects, an implausible amount of HP, & the ability to seriously harm several PCs every round. That's where your aiming.

[absolmorph]

Give them a full turn on two initiative counts, and Cunning Surge at any point in the round (with Inspiration points as a normal Factotum of their level, at the least).

[Rainbownaga]

Shapechanging into a titan is a possibility (although an epic sorcerer probably won't get all that much from the shapechange), but you still need the counters to the party's tier 2 abilities in order to even force the fight to go on long enough to be appropriately epic.

Why not make it a titan shaped into a cute redhead? Obviously a cr21 monster is no use against high tier opponents so gestalt it to give it 21 levels of tier 1 casting and a custom graft that gives it an extra standard action each round.

Alternatively, make it just a titan that can generate a 30 mile antimagic field that penetrates objects.

[Realms of Chaos]

Give them a full turn on two initiative counts, and Cunning Surge at any point in the round (with Inspiration points as a normal Factotum of their level, at the least).

Pretty much this. What I'd personally do is give this guy an extra initiative count at 6th level and every 5 levels afterwards.

[Zeofar]

You want an arbitrarily powerful BBEG that does not need progression up to epic levels, using a class that will never be taken by a player, and you already know what you want him to be able to do? From what I can tell, all you want is a homebrewed monster that's also a human. Just fill out the stat block with abilities.

[Zeta Kai]

You want an arbitrarily powerful BBEG that does not need progression up to epic levels, using a class that will never be taken by a player, and you already know what you want him to be able to do? From what I can tell, all you want is a homebrewed monster that's also a human. Just fill out the stat block with abilities.

That would the most simple solution, admittedly. It's not like this is gonna seen by the players. That's kinda a 4E approach, whereas the 3E in me begs to have a class progression. A weakness, to be sure, but there it is.

[Tyndmyr]

I would like a new base class a NPC of which is capable of being a tough fight for a group of 4 moderate-to-high optimization, equal leveled (to it and each other) Gestalt characters. The NPC is on working its own (no allies or minions), and the class takes up both "sides" of the gestalt. The class should be focused on Arcane magic, and should:


grant secrets of from all 3 Towers of High Sorcery (dragonlance)
grant an Archmage's High Arcana, though at a reduced rate
count as a Spell Savant of half level for the purpose of Legacy Weapons (or whatever those things are called)
have Knowledge and Music as a bard
have other class features, too


The character is a BBEG, and I would like the class to be incredibly over-the-top. Also, the game is very Epic-level, and the character has really high (even for his level) mental ability scores.

I can do this without homebrew at all. How do you feel about illithid savant?

[enderlord99]

I can do this without homebrew at all. How do you feel about illithid savant?

I don't know what that is, but it doesn't sound likely to grant bardic music, which was one of the requirements.

EDIT: I just realized Bardic Music is useless without allies. Oops. But does it really fit ALL of the other requirements?

[Seerow]

I don't know what that is, but it doesn't sound likely to grant bardic music, which was one of the requirements.

EDIT: I just realized Bardic Music is useless without allies. Oops. But does it really fit ALL of the other requirements?

Ithilid Savant eats peoples brains to steal their class features. So yes, it can have bardic music, and just about anything else you could ever want.

[Yitzi]

Why not make it a titan shaped into a cute redhead? Obviously a cr21 monster is no use against high tier opponents so gestalt it to give it 21 levels of tier 1 casting and a custom graft that gives it an extra standard action each round.

At that point, there isn't much point in it being a titan, is there?

[gkathellar]

Tristalt Wizard//Psionic Artificier//Factotum.

Optionally, replace the Wizard side of the equation with Beguiler/Rainbow Servant, then toss in a level of Wizard and Versatile Spellcaster for all Cleric and Wizard spells as known spells. This lets you do anything at any time, thus covering all of your bases.

[Prime32]

Gestalt StP Erudite//Jack Rakan (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=45). :smalltongue:

[Ilorin Lorati]

The wonderful thing about having a class is that it's adaptable to all levels.

...My poor, poor, mid-optimization, low level PCs.

[Dr.Orpheus]

The Ozodrin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153536) class can get fairly broken if you know what your doing (Witch is pour all your points into Basic Eyes, Bite, Special Eyes, Flesh, and Spawn), also Gestating with sorcerer would be crazy.

This is not a class idea, but you could give any creature with high con the final strike feat from savage species, diehard feat, and regeneration 1 overcome by something crazy rare. Then use the self mutilation thing from BoVD to reused his max HP to -9 and you will have a continually dying, exploding, and reforming creature. This can be applied to basically anything, but I would use a Forsaker from masters of the wild to get a higher con. Then you will have a high natural armor so make the thing that will bypass your regeneration a non touch attack

[NichG]

I'd suggest something like the following.

The NPC has the power to Agent-Smith himself into specially prepared followers. He gains full access to his abilities through each body but uses the physical stats and abilities of the body as per Shapechange, and can simultaneously possess up to 3 such hosts. Worse yet, he has just completed a magical engine that automatically summons from a pool of such prepared bodies or dynamically creates then on the spot with a variation on Wish, such that once a round a new body emerges.

The engine itself is in a hidden chamber with an Energy Transformation Field set to convert spell uses of an at-will item in the chamber into Teleport spells, sending the new bodies to the battlefield. Your party can short-circuit the encounter somewhat if they can deduce or divine the location of the chamber and destroy the engine, but they still have to deal with his hosts.

The NPC starts the fight playing it as a wizard, and as his spell slots run out he starts having the engine create more and more monstrous bodies for him to possess. In general he favors bodies with nasty passive effects so that he can focus on his spellcasting (things like damage auras, auras of fear effect or the death giant aura that auto-kills things below 10hp).

If the party kills all three hosts two rounds in a row, they have killed his hosts faster than he was able to possess them and have won. If they destroy the machine and kill all existing hosts they have won.

[Morph Bark]

This is not a class idea, but you could give any creature with high con the final strike feat from savage species, diehard feat, and regeneration 1 overcome by something crazy rare. Then use the self mutilation thing from BoVD to reused his max HP to -9 and you will have a continually dying, exploding, and reforming creature. This can be applied to basically anything, but I would use a Forsaker from masters of the wild to get a higher con. Then you will have a high natural armor so make the thing that will bypass your regeneration a non touch attack

The Tarrasque? :smallbiggrin:

[Realms of Chaos]

I would like a new base class a NPC of which is capable of being a tough fight for a group of 4 moderate-to-high optimization, equal leveled (to it and each other) Gestalt characters.

I just realized something about this project. Namely, we don't have nearly enough information to go on. Seriously.

To get a polished work, the answers to the following questions will probably be very helpful:

1. What level should this super-class (who will likely have a CR equal to its level + 4) be at? You say epic but that really isn't specific enough. If we make a class that doesn't grant enough of what you want this guy to have or that doesn't get it fast enough, it won't be of much use to you.

2. Are you intending for a single fight against the PCs or for multiple fights between which this enemy levels up? If it's the former, there really is no reason not to just make this a unique humanoid creature who doesn't get its power from actual class levels as suggested above (kind of like a demon lord or lord of hell).

3. How high should the spell resistance be? You know far better than any of us what your players roll on their spell penetration rolls so unless you want spell resistance to be too high (negating spellcasters) or too low (making it worthless), please tell us the EXACT amount of spell resistance this guys needs (not level + X, the precise amount).

4. Again, please give us the exact number of secrets/high arcana that you want this guy to have. Telling us to blindly make an overpowered class so that you can optimize it seems silly when you can tell us exactly what you want this guy to have. You'll eventually have to choose what abilities this guy gets at some point either way so why not do so first so that you can make sure that this guy gets all of them that you want him to have and that the advancement rate isn't too slow? Are you perhaps hoping that we'll give you a class more powerful that what you would have made? Seeing as you're the one who knows the characters and their resources, this would be a bad thing.

5. Can you tell us precisely who this BBEG is in your campaign? As you want other class features (perhaps in addition to the immunities/action economy breaking that this guy needs), knowing who he is might help.

6. Can you tell us more about your players other than "epic level" and "high mental ability scores"? Again, more detail is good and helps us tell what type of an encounter would be challenging. What artifacts/epic level spells the players use, for example, might change our approach altogether.

[Dr.Orpheus]

The Tarrasque? :smallbiggrin:

Yes and the sprinting thing will let them chatch up to a runaway party, but this will likely kill an entire party.