[Star Wars: Saga] Sniper

[Jhaza]

After my first character in my current campaign reached completion, I'm planning on retiring him and rolling a new character - a non-lethal take-down sniper. We have a Noble in the party who has Inspire Zeal, meaning that if I move the target down the condition track at all, they go down an extra step, so bear that in mind.

My current build, for level 12:
Scout, 5 levels: 2 Awareness talents, 1 Survival talent. (These are for prereqs)
Bonus feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot

Soldier, 2 levels: Devastating Attack (treat my target's damage threshold as 5 lower)
Bonus feat: Quick Draw

Prestige Classes:
Enforcer, 1 level: Nonlethal Tactics. +1 to attack, +1 die of damage when dealing stun damage. (Force Unleashed, pg. 46)

Bounty Hunter, 1 level: Hunter's Mark. If I successfully hit a target after aiming, they automatically drop -1 on the condition track.

Gunslinger, 3 levels: Debilitating Shot, same as Hunter's Mark. Knockdown Shot - if I successfully hit a target after aiming, they get knocked prone.

Other feats:
Weapon Proficiency (Carbonite Rifle) - the weapon I intend to use (KotOR, page 69)
Deadeye - +1 die of damage after aiming.
Desperate Gambit - Once per turn, reroll a missed attack roll, but take a -2 to ref. defense until the end of your next turn (Scum and Villany, page 21)

So, as things stand, if I aim and attack with a Carbonite rifle, I do 5D10 damage, compared to their damage threshold -5. If I hit, they're immobilized (via the Carbonite rifle), knocked prone, and drop 3 steps down the condition track (2 from talents, 1 from Zeal). If I beat their threshold, they drop all 5.

I'm fairly pleased with the build, but I feel like it could be improved significantly. Currently, I'm mostly concerned that I won't be able to do enough damage to bypass their threshold, since I'll be mostly dealing with the stronger opponents, not mooks. I feel like I won't have a ton of trouble hitting things, since I get rerolls and have a decent number of buffs.

What I have to work with:
You might have noticed, I didn't use two of my base feats, so I've got those to work with. If I start as a human, I'd get another feat if I really needed it.

I took three levels of Gunslinger, but ideally I only need 1 (for the extra -1 on the condition track) if I drop my target every time. However, against difficult opponents, knocking them prone seems like it'd be sweet - we have a melee Jedi who I think does special stuff for attacks of opportunity, which I'm pretty sure standing from prone provokes. If there is something absolutely amazing I could get instead of these two levels, I'd definitely consider it. Also, I could spend a normal feat slot on Quick Draw and take a non-prestige (or at least, not a prestige class that requires level 7) class if there's a talent that would be good.

Droidfulness. I'm not entirely sure yet, but most likely I will be either a cyborg or a full droid. One of my partymates is a droid who's sole purpose in life is to droidify, borgify, upgrade, hack, sabotage or otherwise computer-based-magic anything he touches, so I'll be able to get some significant upgrades.

My weapon. The Carbonite Rifle does 3D10 stun damage base, and immobilizes on hit, which seems really strong, and should be available (Wookiepedia claims it's been available since the Old Republic era, and we're playing the Rebellion era), but I'd certainly be interested in hearing if there are any better weapons.


So, what do you all think? Look like a solid build? Any obvious holes? Any "You Win" feats I didn't read? Any amazing classes I could take instead of what I have listed? Any help or feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[RandomLunatic]

Well, standing from Prone does not provoke AoOs in Saga, and Knockdown Shot has always seemed like a dumb talent to me. Prone targets get bonus to Reflex against ranged attacks, so using it makes follow-up attacks harder. Good job.

For damage, I have to admit to being kinda stuck. There is always weapon Focus and Spec, of course, trading off Gunslinger for more Soldier levels.

Another thing you could try is grabbing Steadying Position from Galaxy At War, ditching the two Gunslinger levels for Bounty Hunter, and picking up sneak attack. Trouble is, this only works within 6 squares, and the wisdom of being prone at that range is... debatable.

Finally, you can try moving the Damage Threshold instead of upping damage. Pick up Martial Arts I and AP(Medium) and trade off those two Gunslinger levels for Elite Trooper with Greater Weapon Focus (Heavy). Next level, you get to ET 3 and can take Greater Devastating Attack (Heavy), which knocks the DT down by 10 points. Sadly, it is not doable at 12 without losing something.

[Jhaza]

I was thinking about going into Elite Trooper, but it didn't seem like it was worth losing the Prone thing. If knocking them prone isn't actually useful, though... that sounds like a much better build. I couldn't get Steadying Position and Elite Trooper at the same time, unless I was a human, in which case I wouldn't get the +4 dex from superior tech upgrades. I probably will pick up Elite Trooper, though.

[Mando Knight]

Superior Tech on droid PCs is the path to cheesy doom. Beware the banhammer, or worse, escalation.

Hitting the damage threshold on the first shot will be difficult, but with Debilitating Shot and Hunter's Mark, you won't need to worry about that. The second shot will almost always take down the target.

[Jarveiyan]

You might want to give the assassin PrC from SaV a looksy for sniper goodies, it looks like your headed that ways sort of anyways.

[Jhaza]

Mando - You're right about the second shotting taking them down, but... if I drop them in one shot, that's (obviously) much more desirable. I'm ok with the cheese from superior tech.

Jarveiyan - I think most of those talents require a couple levels to really be worth it, and I'm pretty sure I'll never get past 13 on this character.

[The_Snark]

Look at gear templates in the KOTOR book; the Bothan template gives a weapon +1 die of damage when dealing stun/ion damage. The drawback is that it deals -1 die when set to lethal damage... but since your weapon doesn't have a lethal setting, you don't have to worry about it. (I have to assume this is intentional, since ion weapons never have a non-ion setting.) Should definitely grab that for your carbonite rifle.

At this point I think you have a pretty good shot (hah) at overcoming enemy damage thresholds: average damage of 33.5, plus Devastating Attack. If you're still worried... there's a weapon upgrade from Scum and Villainy called a pulse charger that gives a weapon -1 to attack in exchange for +1 to damage per die rolled. Normally this works out to about a -1/+3 ratio, but for you it'd be -1/+6, which is worth thinking about. It sounds like you've got a tech specialist in your group, so if he has Superior Tech you can nab another +5 damage from that.

As for other things... you might consider picking up Careful Shot, since you have feats to spare; combine that with a double trigger (another weapon upgrade from Scum and Villainy) and you'll get +2 to attacks whenever you aim, which is already your primary combat strategy. Even with Desperate Gambit, it's good to have a high attack bonus, especially when you don't have full BAB. Some enemies (mostly Jedi and people who specialize in armor) have really high defenses at this level.

Your scout talents look to be mostly set since you have to satisfy prestige class requirements, which is a shame because it rules out a lot of my favorite scout talents, but them's the breaks. I suggest Evasion for your Survivor talent, and as for Awareness... well, given the way that talent tree is set up you don't have a lot of options, but fortunately they're not bad talents.

[darkdragoon]

If you can fit it in Infiltrator (Force Unleashed, I think) has "Set For Stun" and a few other things that might help you get into position unnoticed.

[Jhaza]

After talking to my GM, the Carbonite Rifle is out, sadly. The repeating blaster carbine does 3D10, and can be set to stun, but is an Autofire only gun by default. Although I'd prefer the Carbonite gun for the immobilize, having an autofire gun means I could get Burst Fire instead of Deadeye - -5 to attack for +2 die, instead of a flat +1 die (if I aim, which I will). I'm thinking that probably isn't worth it, but I'd be interested in what you all think.

If I do end up going with the carbine, that frees up a feat (since I don't have to get proficiency), which I think will go towards Careful Shot (as The_Snark suggested; thanks a bunch! I'd seen most of that stuff, but the Bothan manufacturing is going to be fantastic), and I'll pick up Weapon Focus with one of my other two floating feats. Then, as RandomLunatic suggested, I can get two levels of Elite Trooper instead of three in Gunslinger, setting myself up to get Greater Devastating Attack next level. Assuming I can actually do that build (I think I can. Pretty sure.), my attack stats should end up looking something like...

+10 (BAB), +2 (aim), +2 (careful shot), +1 (PBS), +2 (Weapon Focus, GWF), -1 (Pulse Charger) = +16 total, and I get to reroll misses.
Damage: 3D10, +1D10 (enforcer), +1D10 (Bothan), +1D10 (Deadeye) = 6D10, +6 (Pulse Charger) +6 (half level) = 6D10+12 = 45 average damage, compared to Threshold -5, so on average dropping anyone with a threshold less than 50.

Dang, that seems good. I think I'm good on damage, unless I messed the math up.

[The_Snark]

On the carbine: once again, equipment upgrades to the rescue! A sniper switch will give your carbine a single-shot mode for a pretty low price. (The price is that it's no longer autofire-only and therefore can't be braced, but you probably don't care about that much.) Without that, you would have to grab Burst Fire, because you can't aim with area attacks.

Your main weakness is that weapons set on stun have a maximum range of 6 squares unless otherwise stated, which forces you to get in pretty close (which is bad, because you can't aim if you have to move). If you want to avoid that, you'll have to find a nonstandard stun weapon, such as the carbonite rifle (already ruled out) or the stokhli spray stick (from the Force Unleashed book).

[Marnath]

On the carbine: once again, equipment upgrades to the rescue! A sniper switch will give your carbine a single-shot mode for a pretty low price. (The price is that it's no longer autofire-only and therefore can't be braced, but you probably don't care about that much.) Without that, you would have to grab Burst Fire, because you can't aim with area attacks.


Tech specialist selective fire modification can do that without robbing the ability to brace the weapon in auto-fire mode.

[The_Snark]

True, but the opportunity cost is +1 to attack or +2 to damage from not having one of the other possible modifications (+2 to attack and +5 to damage if his party's tech guy has Superior Tech).

[Jhaza]

Your main weakness is that weapons set on stun have a maximum range of 6 squares unless otherwise stated, which forces you to get in pretty close (which is bad, because you can't aim if you have to move). If you want to avoid that, you'll have to find a nonstandard stun weapon, such as the carbonite rifle (already ruled out) or the stokhli spray stick (from the Force Unleashed book).

I didn't realize this. If I do get the Stokhli Spray Stick, I'd be doing D8's instead of D10s, I wouldn't be able to get the Pulse Charger (it's for blasters only), so I would go down to +17 / 6D8+6 (avg: 33), which is 12 points of damage lower, on average, than the carbine. This seems like it would dramatically reduce my chances of overcoming their threshold, but the increase in range... I'll think about it. Question, though - the Spray Stick says it allows the attacker to initiate a grab or grapple at range, and I don't know how that would work. Could someone clarify that for me? It doesn't make sense for it to use my grapple stats, but it doesn't provide information on what the net's grapple mods would be.

Also: I'm not finding one, but does anyone know of a weapon, ideally a blaster, that does D10 stun damage and has a range longer than 6 squares? Which would be available during the Rebellion era?

[The_Snark]

Question, though - the Spray Stick says it allows the attacker to initiate a grab or grapple at range, and I don't know how that would work. Could someone clarify that for me? It doesn't make sense for it to use my grapple stats, but it doesn't provide information on what the net's grapple mods would be.

You would use your grapple stats if you used Pin or Trip through the stick. If you don't have those, it doesn't matter because you can't initiate a grapple. You could still use the stick to grab people at range, but there's no special modifiers involved there, just an attack roll at a -5 penalty.

You're right that you'll be doing less damage, but I don't think you're going to find a weapon like the one you're looking for; the only blasters I can find with a longer-than-normal stun range are the bluebolt blaster pistol from the Legacy book (3d8 damage, can stun at 8 squares instead of 6) and the stun pistol from the Unknown Regions book (20-square stun range, which is respectable, but only 3d6 damage). You might be able to convince your GM to give you a stun rifle based off the pistol, but reasonably speaking it should only do 3d8 damage. (It would let you use the pulse charger, though.)

Bear in mind that you can carry multiple weapons, so you could have one weapon for long-range ambushes and a second for close-quarters combat. You have the Quick Draw feat (and if you apply the Quick Draw weapon template, you can reduce the draw time from swift action to free), so the inconvenience is minimal, and both weapons are rifles so you don't have to worry about taking Weapon Focus and such twice. Money might be a problem, though; I don't know how much your GM plans on giving you, but two fully tricked-out weapons could be expensive.

[Jhaza]

Alas. Thanks a bunch for your advice - I'll ask my GM about getting a rifled version the next time I see him. I probably will end up getting two weapons, and I don't think money will be an issue - certainly it won't be after I join the party properly, but I might not be able to start out with everything I'd like.