Surviving a Blasphemy.

[Pigkappa]

I'm playing in a low/mid-op game and will soon play in a mid optimization one.

I'm currently the cleric (no DMM) and since we've been smart, we could skip most of the encounters which now means we're near the end of the adventure at level 13, while we should likely be 17 or so.
I'm mainly in charge of making the party survive, though I can fight too.

We've faced two Blasphemy spells recently and barely survived. The first time I had a Silence spell active just for no good reason (I was afraid a mob could pop out, and wanted to prevent him from using Dimension Door); the rest of my party was paralyzed, but I could use Remove Paralysis.
The second time we were all paralyzed, but we luckily had an Evil minion who was helping us (via Dominate Person) who dispelled the effect before we died.

How can we be protected against that awful spell? We've really high saving throws (almost +20 in each one of them), I and the Druid have high AC (> 30 before the low-duration buffs), we usually go out with Freedom of Movement (I've also got Death Ward), Heroes' Feast (thus immunity to fear and poison), fire resistance 30 and cold resistance 30. That spell bypasses everything except SR which is difficult to achieve :(.

[Tyndmyr]

Necropolitan is pretty awesome for collecting immunities to such things.

[GnomeGninjas]

If you have a bard you could get him to cast zone of silence, then if all the casters get silent spell and you stay within 5 feet of the bard you will be fine.
You could just turn evil but that would also have some problems.

[tyckspoon]

Silence, lots of Silence. Ready an action to cast it if you have to. Contingent Silence would be ideal, but you'd have to go through some contortions to make it possible. If your GM is ok with it, cast the Silence on a Tanglefoot Bag/Harpoon/similarly sticky object and throw that at the creature you want silenced- Silence only offers a save if cast directly on a creature. Cast it on the object and anything near that object is affected with no option. Casting it on something that explicitly sticks to/in the target makes sure he can't just walk out of it and Blasphemy anyway.

[Cruiser1]

How can we be protected against that awful spell? we usually go out with Freedom of Movement (I've also got Death Ward) That spell bypasses everything except SR which is difficult to achieve :(.
Blasphemy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blasphemy.htm)'s worst effects are its instant kill and paralysis. Death Ward (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm) protects targets from magical death effects, so covers the first part. Freedom of Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm) protects targets against all forms of paralysis, so covers the second part.

SR isn't that hard to achieve. Just cast the 5th level Cleric spell Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellResistance.htm). If you want to conserve 5th level spell slots, cast the 3rd level spell Mantle of Good (SpC) on yourself which provides the same SR but only against [Evil] spells like Blasphemy.

Since you're a level 13 Cleric, you should have access to 7th level spells like Blasphemy or Holy Word too. If you really want to protect against it and you expect that it's coming, prepare it yourself and ready an action to counterspell.

[Draz74]

Once you get to Level 15, make sure you start preparing Mass Death Ward (Spell Compendium).

[Runestar]

Blasphemy doesn't have the death descriptor, so death ward is no use there (the same reason it works on phantasmal killer, but won't protect against spells like implosion).


If you really want to protect against it and you expect that it's coming, prepare it yourself and ready an action to counterspell.

Won't work against fiends throwing blasphemy as SLAs though. :smallfrown:

But I think you are on the right track, in that the wizard may want to ready an action to disrupt the caster by pelting him with a high damage spell (say a maximised orb spell) when he starts casting (and especially when the spell is identified as a critical spell you want to disrupt).

[Qwertystop]

I just noticed that Blasphemy has the fourth effect of Dazing, but the other four (Holy Word, Word of Chaos, Dictum) all Deafen.


Would some form of alignment-concealing protect against it? I know some homebrew classes have abilities that let them count as whatever alignment is most favorable in a given situation, and not show up on Detect spells. Is there a spell that does that?

[nedz]

6 levels of Horizon Walker

Deafness

[Pigkappa]

We totally missed the part on Freedom of Movement protecting us. That likely solves the problem since me and the Druid have it usually on!

[Reluctance]

For the record, overcoming an obstacle counts as defeating it for the purposes of XP gain. Someone else can look up a page ref for that. Takeaway being, this isn't a computer RPG, you shouldn't have to be frustratingly underleveled just because you didn't grind on enemies before moving on to the next area.

[LordBlades]

Since Blasphemy allows SR, it's also a valid target for Greater Spell Immunity. At 10 min/level and caster level 17+ you should be able to keep one up your whole adventuring day (add a rod of extend into the mix for 6 hour duration).

[Qwertystop]

6 levels of Horizon Walker

Deafness

Would deafness work? I don't think it ever actually says that the target needs to be able to hear anything.

[Volthawk]

Would deafness work? I don't think it ever actually says that the target needs to be able to hear anything.

No, deafness won't work. Blasphemy doesn't have the [Language-Dependent] descriptor, so deafness isn't a defence.

[Qwertystop]

No, deafness won't work. Blasphemy doesn't have the [Language-Dependent] descriptor, so deafness isn't a defence.

Didn't think so, but he offered it as a solution... Wasn't sure.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Become evil.[/joke]


If you have a Wizard, antimagic field is only a 6th level spell. Provided that abjuration isn't banned that will protect you. Nothing in the Blasphemy spell description states that an AM field is useless against it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Personally, I'd be more worried about facing a near-epic encounter.

It only paralyzes you if the caster is 5 or more CL's higher than your HD. You're level... 13? That means you're facing at least a CL 17 cleric.

Be glad all you're dealing with is Blasphemy. You could be dealing with Implosion and 'yes you die, unless you beat a highly improbable save' or Energy Drain for 'no save, just die' with DMM: Empower. Mass Harm would also probably be a party-killer as well.

Dealing with encounters of ECL+5? Gets you boatloads of xp. You should be leveling WAY faster just by dealing with it.

[JoeYounger]

For the record, overcoming an obstacle counts as defeating it for the purposes of XP gain. Someone else can look up a page ref for that. Takeaway being, this isn't a computer RPG, you shouldn't have to be frustratingly underleveled just because you didn't grind on enemies before moving on to the next area.

This.

Finding a way around an obstacle is the same as beating that obsacle with a sword when it comes to getting exp.

[nedz]

Blasphemy
Evocation [Evil, Sonic]
Level: Clr 7, Evil 7
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 40 ft.
Area: Nonevil creatures in a 40-ft.-radius spread centered on you
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None or Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

Any nonevil creature within the area of a blasphemy spell suffers the following ill effects.
HD Effect
Equal to caster level Dazed
Up to caster level -1 Weakened, dazed
Up to caster level -5 Paralyzed, weakened, dazed
Up to caster level -10 Killed, paralyzed, weakened, dazed

The effects are cumulative and concurrent.
No saving throw is allowed against these effects.
Dazed
The creature can take no actions for 1 round, though it defends itself normally.
Weakened
The creature’s Strength score decreases by 2d6 points for 2d4 rounds.
Paralyzed
The creature is paralyzed and helpless for 1d10 minutes.
Killed
Living creatures die. Undead creatures are destroyed.

Furthermore, if you are on your home plane when you cast this spell, nonevil extraplanar creatures within the area are instantly banished back to their home planes. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours. This effect takes place regardless of whether the creatures hear the blasphemy. The banishment effect allows a Will save (at a -4 penalty) to negate.

Creatures whose Hit Dice exceed your caster level are unaffected by blasphemy.
I suggested Deafness on the basis that Silence works, and that the spell has a Sonic descriptor. The comment is the text about banishment kind of implies that it should - in other situations.

[Ifni]

Freedom of Movement will stop the paralysis, but not the Strength penalty or the dazing. My biggest issue with Blasphemy was the no-save daze: all you need is one demon with high-CL Blasphemy multiple times/day, and one buddy, and the demon just keeps the party in lockdown while their buddy beats everyone up. (Also, the interaction of HD-advanced half-fiends with Blasphemy is one of the stupider things in Core. Even without the silliness of HD advancement, a half-fiend roc has CL 18 Blasphemy at CR 12.) If you have access to the Magic Item Compendium, Third Eye Clarity is cheap and helpful - daze is notoriously difficult to defend against though.

My high-level group's proactive anti-Blasphemy strategies were Silence or Antimagic Field in a contingency, reactive counterspelling abilities (Battlemagic Perception from Heroes of Battle is the best, although it still doesn't help with spell-likes), freedom of movement on the party all day every day, and a Third Eye Clarity on the guy who had Healing Lorecall and mass-healing abilities. Once we got into a fight, we sometimes put up Silence + Joyful Noise, or had a spellcaster dedicated to readying Spiritwalls / Walls of Force to block line of effect. (And on one memorable occasion, we ended up using Mass Bull's Strength via the Archmage's Limited Wish spell-like ability: everyone thought somebody else was handling the anti-Blasphemy contingency, and all the full-casters in the party got paralyzed in the surprise round by Strength loss.)

It really is a horrible spell, though. I've been in campaigns where there was a mutual agreement between players and GM not to abuse CL-boosted Blasphemy / Holy Word, because otherwise the terms "arms race" and "mutually assured destruction" start to become very relevant.

[Pigkappa]

For the record, overcoming an obstacle counts as defeating it for the purposes of XP gain. Someone else can look up a page ref for that. Takeaway being, this isn't a computer RPG, you shouldn't have to be frustratingly underleveled just because you didn't grind on enemies before moving on to the next area.
I know, but this get trickier when the players avoid like 5 encounters by flying over a 30km lake at 90 km/h (yeah, that's what Wind Walk does). Receiving 5000 XPs for having done nothing isn't really cool.

Also, we're definitely more stronger than the ones writing the adventure thought, so the DM is deliberately letting us fight high level encounters. We are doing good anyway, for the most part.



It only paralyzes you if the caster is 5 or more CL's higher than your HD. You're level... 13? That means you're facing at least a CL 17 cleric.

Those were actually monsters with Blasphemy as a spell like ability, and unable to do anything more dangerous than that. (well, yes, maybe Finger of Death. Not so hard with Death Ward often active, +18 Fortitude, and Alter Fortune.)

[Coidzor]

I'm currently the cleric (no DMM) and since we've been smart, we could skip most of the encounters which now means we're near the end of the adventure at level 13, while we should likely be 17 or so.

Being 4 levels behind where you're supposed to be means either A. you weren't circumventing the challenges "properly" (i.e. you were supposed to level up from overland travel but teleported) or B. your DM is the kind that's either stingy with XP for things other than killing or laboring under an illusion that they can't award non-murder XP at all.

Now if it were like, 1 or 2, sure, that's understandable, variance and all, but 4 levels? That's an issue in and of itself.


I know, but this get trickier when the players avoid like 5 encounters by flying over a 30km lake at 90 km/h (yeah, that's what Wind Walk does). Receiving 5000 XPs for having done nothing isn't really cool.

Also, we're definitely more stronger than the ones writing the adventure thought, so the DM is deliberately letting us fight high level encounters. We are doing good anyway, for the most part.

Until he passive-aggressively sends much higher HD/level creatures at you that use things like Blasphemy as punishment rather than working with you.

Which is kinda what you're supposed to do as the DM, work with the players when stuff like simple abilities the players have circumvent the designers' stupidity. You're not supposed to punish your players for the designers' sake, after all. :smalltongue:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Those were actually monsters with Blasphemy as a spell like ability, and unable to do anything more dangerous than that. (well, yes, maybe Finger of Death. Not so hard with Death Ward often active, +18 Fortitude, and Alter Fortune.)

That's tricky to pull off...

Half-Fiend template can do it, although to have a high enough CL, it needs to be at least 17 HD. At that point, it's CR is at base +3 from the template, and he also has access to Horrid Wilting, which should've killed off half your party.

A Herozu can pull it off, but CL is only 13, so no paralysis.

A Balor can, but... well... they have a *LOT* more things they can do besides Blasphemy, and if you're facing a CR 20 encounter at level 13... you're boned anyways.

A Pit Fiend has this, but... see previous statement about a Balor. Meteor Swarm would've killed the whole party at this point.

[Ifni]

That's tricky to pull off...

Half-Fiend template can do it, although to have a high enough CL, it needs to be at least 17 HD. At that point, it's CR is at base +3 from the template, and he also has access to Horrid Wilting, which should've killed off half your party.

Half-fiend roc is CR 12, and its Horrid Wilting is just 18d6 damage - that averages to 63, so 30ish damage on a successful Fort save, which really should not take out anyone at L13. (Save DC on spell-likes is Charisma-based, and half-fiend rocs have Cha 13, so that's what, a DC 19 Fort save?) Blasphemy is no-save daze + no-save hefty Strength penalty + no-save paralysis on anyone L13 or lower, I don't think there's much comparison.

Half-fiend Blasphemy scaling with HD the way it does was really not a good idea.

[Pigkappa]

...
Ehy, the DM is doing a good job, stop attacking him :smallannoyed:. The adventure is going fine, if we were at the appropriate level we could win every encounter with no effort at all. He left us skip the lake part because we all agreed the adventure was really long already and didn't want it to last forever.

(btw, we're speaking about the city of spider queen; no spoilers please)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Half-fiend roc is CR 12, and its Horrid Wilting is just 18d6 damage - that averages to 63, so 30ish damage on a successful Fort save, which really should not take out anyone at L13. (Save DC on spell-likes is Charisma-based, and half-fiend rocs have Cha 13, so that's what, a DC 19 Fort save?) Blasphemy is no-save daze + no-save hefty Strength penalty + no-save paralysis on anyone L13 or lower, I don't think there's much comparison.

Half-fiend Blasphemy scaling with HD the way it does was really not a good idea.

Horrid Wilting does 18d6. Average hit points for a 13th level character? You're going to be averaging 13d something. The ones you want to hit? Have d4 HD. Who cares if the tank is up, if you can one-shot the casters, you're gold. Who, by the way, have crappy Fort saves. Oh, and Evasion? Doesn't apply, since it's Fort/half not Ref/half. So it's also Rogue-B-Gone. About the only ones who can MAKE the save are the ones who are least likely to be able to affect said Roc. Also the only ones who could remove the Paralysis effect. So you start off with Horrid Wilting... one-shot kill the arcane caster and probably the cleric. Then if you want to bother with Blasphemy, now that you've killed everything that can affect you, by all means.

[Eldariel]

The Spell Resistance-spell combined with caster level boosting effects like Beads of Karma and Orange Prism Ioun Stone is indeed quite useful, in fact. Fiends rarely have easy access to Spell Penetration-type effects since they lack actual spellcasting. If anything, it's one more layer in your defenses. Also, loose formation would help so they cannot hit you all with it. Battlemagic Perception [Heroes of Battle] might allow counterspelling it.


Horrid Wilting does 18d6. Average hit points for a 13th level character? You're going to be averaging 13d something. The ones you want to hit? Have d4 HD. Who cares if the tank is up, if you can one-shot the casters, you're gold. Who, by the way, have crappy Fort saves. Oh, and Evasion? Doesn't apply, since it's Fort/half not Ref/half. So it's also Rogue-B-Gone. About the only ones who can MAKE the save are the ones who are least likely to be able to affect said Roc. Also the only ones who could remove the Paralysis effect. So you start off with Horrid Wilting... one-shot kill the arcane caster and probably the cleric. Then if you want to bother with Blasphemy, now that you've killed everything that can affect you, by all means.

Eh, most characters by level 13 are looking at +4 Con items and 14 base Con so ~+4/HD. 84 HP average for d4 types vs. 63 average damage. They'll survive one.

[Runestar]

Well, in all fairness, a roc has only 1 int, so you cannot apply the half-fiend template to it. The min 4 int is a requirement which many people seem to ignore or overlook. :smalltongue:

[Pigkappa]

The Spell Resistance-spell combined with caster level boosting effects like Beads of Karma and Orange Prism Ioun Stone is indeed quite useful, in fact.
I've said before that DMM is not allowed. Having an all-day spell resistance without that is hard.

[Eldariel]

I've said before that DMM is not allowed. Having an all-day spell resistance without that is hard.

Aye, but it's 10 min/level. With Beads of Karma (and any other caster level boosts you might have; you want as high a CL as you can have anyways, in order to get relevant SR) and e.g. Extend Spell you can still look at about 6 hour coverage which could be quite helpful, if not all-day.

[deuxhero]

Horizon Walker can pick immunity to [alignment] spells at any level of 6-10th level (it also has a nify every 1d4 round teleport)

[Pigkappa]

Aye, but it's 10 min/level. With Beads of Karma (and any other caster level boosts you might have; you want as high a CL as you can have anyways, in order to get relevant SR) and e.g. Extend Spell you can still look at about 6 hour coverage which could be quite helpful, if not all-day.

It's actually 1 minute/day on the PHB. The mass version from the SC is even worse, 1 round/level. Those spells just say "I'm totally useless" to anyone without metamagic :(.

[Eldariel]

It's actually 1 minute/day on the PHB. The mass version from the SC is even worse, 1 round/level. Those spells just say "I'm totally useless" to anyone without metamagic :(.

...well, feck. I dunno what I'm remembering. I guess I gotta read through all the spells again or something. Sowwy.

[Coidzor]

Ehy, the DM is doing a good job, stop attacking him :smallannoyed:. The adventure is going fine, if we were at the appropriate level we could win every encounter with no effort at all. He left us skip the lake part because we all agreed the adventure was really long already and didn't want it to last forever.

(btw, we're speaking about the city of spider queen; no spoilers please)

If the shoe fits, it's not my fault for drawing that conclusion. :smallwink:

Even if he's not intentionally doing it, it's still an issue if he does it out of ignorance, which is my main point, there's a DM-side component to this issue that you seemed to be neglecting and now seem to be refusing to accept as a possibility.

Blasphemy and its ilk are not good spells for the game in general and are even worse when you've deliberately underleveled the party. Which you've confirmed as having happened and been agreed upon.

[Gavinfoxx]

Wait a minute, the DM DIDN'T give you full XP for intelligently skipping the encounters as if you had gone in guns blazing?!

[Ifni]

Well, in all fairness, a roc has only 1 int, so you cannot apply the half-fiend template to it. The min 4 int is a requirement which many people seem to ignore or overlook. :smalltongue:

Heh, fair point. I now wish I'd known that at the time :smallwink: (I was a player, not the GM, and when I glanced at half-fiend earlier today to check I had the example right, I missed that line) That probably does actually cut down the abuse a bit as most of the Int 4+ creatures don't have completely stupid HD relative to their CR, you probably have to actually try (i.e. use HD advancement) to make it silly.

(On a quick check... dragons might do it. Adult half-fiend white dragon is CR 13 and has 18 HD. But dragon CRs can be a bit wonky.)

Eldariel, maybe you're thinking of (Greater) Spell Immunity? That one lasts 10 minutes/level, and the Greater version will stop Blasphemy, but it's L8, so they don't have it at L13 (and it's single-target anyway). Once you get this, if you're really worried about Blasphemy it can be worth putting on a PC who can cast Silence, to deal with Blasphemy ambushes.

Sorry to continue the Horrid Wilting derail, but Shneekey: unless the half-fiend is cranking Charisma, the save DC is quite likely to be 20 or less, and plenty of people can make that. And as others have said, people have Con bonuses at this level! The most glass-cannon-ish caster I ever played to high levels had all d4 HD, all non-favored Fort, a starting Con of 12, and delusions of invincibility: she relied primarily on mobility and battlefield control for defense, and by L13 she was still walking around with a +13 unbuffed Fort save and usually well over 100 HP once you included temp HP (Empowered False Life + Heroes' Feast).

[Duriel]

My solution/contingency for surviving a Blasphemy? That was actually pretty simple. When most of the party was paralyzed by the fiends opening move I was able to cast Remove Paralysis (the 2 psions didnt really need it with their mental actions) to get our tank/frontline fighter back up. ME? :smallamused: I'm the Chaotic Evil cleric of what passes for Cthulhu/Nyarlathotep in our home setting. (\(;,,;)/)

Devil Princess: Now you fall mort-er.....what? :smalleek:
Me: We're an "interfaith" coalition of Adventurers assembled to whoop your ass. Fear & Madness be upon you. :smallamused:
Devil Princess: :smallfurious: FUUUUUUUUUUUUU-


That might be fighting fire with fire, but when an Evil vs Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilVersusEvil) situation pops up, they often dont expect it so you know how they think, and you've got tactics they often dont expect from typical heroes.

On a side note, it would seem WAAAAY more useful in the Blood War if they had Dictum and Word of Chaos.

[Runestar]

Also, a bard's inspire greatness ability adds 2 virtual HD, which just might be enough to mitigate the effects of blasphemy, or even let you ignore it altogether. :smallsmile:

An interesting thought - the mage slayer feat imposes a -4 caster lv penalty on the recipient. A wizard with arcane reach (or some other way of dealing a touch spell from range) could in theory cast heroics (which does not allow for a save) to bestow said feat on the fiend in question (assuming they meet the requirements; off the top of my head, the hezrou does in the very least). :smallbiggrin:

[Sudain]

Originally Posted by SRD
Blasphemy
Evocation [Evil, Sonic]
Level: Clr 7, Evil 7
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 40 ft.
Area: Nonevil creatures in a 40-ft.-radius spread centered on you
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None or Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

Just change tactics. Don't be IN the aura when he casts it. Range is your advantage - it is not an advantage of your melee fighters so send them in. He should blow it to get rid of them; then you can act.

If you can't abuse range, then have a backup plan like counterspell/forcing a concentration check. Or, toss out a spell so that casting Blasphemy isn't the best thing he could do that turn.

[Myth]

Yeah, I mean it's not like there are ways for a CL17 caster to teleport in the middle of a lvl 13 party as a Swift action and Blasphemy away.

[Curmudgeon]

An interesting thought - the mage slayer feat imposes a -4 caster lv penalty on the recipient. A wizard with arcane reach (or some other way of dealing a touch spell from range) could in theory cast heroics (which does not allow for a save) to bestow said feat on the fiend in question
Heroics can only bestow a Fighter bonus feat, which Mage Slayer is not.

[Sudain]

Yeah, I mean it's not like there are ways for a CL17 caster to teleport in the middle of a lvl 13 party as a Swift action and Blasphemy away.

Now I'm interested in what those are. :smallbiggrin:

[Infernalbargain]

Being 4 levels behind where you're supposed to be means either A. you weren't circumventing the challenges "properly" (i.e. you were supposed to level up from overland travel but teleported) or B. your DM is the kind that's either stingy with XP for things other than killing or laboring under an illusion that they can't award non-murder XP at all.

Now if it were like, 1 or 2, sure, that's understandable, variance and all, but 4 levels? That's an issue in and of itself.



Until he passive-aggressively sends much higher HD/level creatures at you that use things like Blasphemy as punishment rather than working with you.

Which is kinda what you're supposed to do as the DM, work with the players when stuff like simple abilities the players have circumvent the designers' stupidity. You're not supposed to punish your players for the designers' sake, after all. :smalltongue:

Maybe the DM is just making them play on hard mode.

Getting SR isn't that great of an option against this. Since the CL is at least 5 higher than yours, that means at best it is only 30% protection assuming minimum CL to paralyze you and they have no bonuses vs SR.

[Keld Denar]

Two feats that help vs Blasphemy would be Mark of the Dauntless from Dragonmarked. Requires one other Dragonmark though, which is an issue. Grants total immunity to Daze, though. The other is one of my favorite feats, Quick Recovery from Lords of Madness. Anyone with a decent Will save should have this. Move action to clear a whole host of effects, including effects that don't even allow saves. You could clear a Blasphemy and still have your standard action free to free an ally.

If you really want it now, Lim Wish to replicate Psychic Reformation. That'll let you retrain any one of your feats to Quick Recovery. It's pretty useful in tons of situations.