I broke my Wizard.

[missmvicious]

Oops.

I didn't mean to. I've never played a Wizard before, and I thought that wizards just knew their next level spells, like Clerics do. I feel like an idiot because it says so right in the PHB that they only learn 2 new spells per level unless they are scribing from another spell book or they do independent research, or scribe spells into their spell book from a scroll. The DM and I caught this together while we were looking up how wizard's can learn divine spells without taking XP penalties from cross-classing. But that's another topic.

But now, I'm met with a dilemma. My DM says I can finish out 4th level with the rules I've been using since I've build my strategy around having a complete spell list, but before I go up to level 5, I have to fix my character to reflect the appropriate number of spells that I would already know. He's also allowing me to un-specialize. I don't see the point in having prohibited schools since I've decided to become a Mystic Theurge (sp?) as soon as possible anyway. But since I've learned new rules about spell casters, I have to say that would also affect how I leveled up as a wizard. In other words, in order to gain a wider range of spells, I probably would've multi-classed into Cleric much sooner, especially since I want to scribe scrolls like they're going out of style.

I've discussed this with my DM. We've already had to "rewrite" history for this campaign a couple of times because people have dropped out, signed on, made (accidentally and intentionally) broken characters, etc. So there is precedence. He's willing to consider re-writing history one more time so that I multi-classed at level 2, which would make me only 2 levels away from the PrC that I want once I hit level 5, but he also worries that would be kind of cheap and unfair to the other completely new players who've had to make do with their un-optimized characters so far. We decided to inquire with the Playground about their opinion on this.

Since I have to re-write history to erase more than 7/8 of my spell book should I be able to adjust my character to reflect how that cause would effect my development: ie eliminate school specialization and cross class to Cleric at level 2, or bite the bullet, strip my spell book and deal with it like a big girl?

If I can't re-write history to become a Mystic Theurge and get a ridiculous amount of spells, then I might just go with Eldritch Master and deal with it. We're in an enchanted forest setting where everything has at least a feint aura, so Detect Magic gives you a much cooler version of dark vision, so being able to cast it at will is kind of handy.

[bigstipidfighte]

If you want to be a Mystic Theurge, I say go for it. The class isn't overpowerered though, it's actually rather underpowered since you end up 3 levels behind in both spellcasting classes. Great for being a utility-belt type character though.

EDIT: Also, I'd advise a specialist wizard. If you can banning Necromancy and Abjuration might be good, I think Cleric get most of those spells anyway. In the end though, the character will pretty much function the same whether you specialize or not.

[Flickerdart]

Why would you not want school specialization? With Cleric spells in the mix, you can safely drop Necromancy and Abjuration, because Clerics get all the best spells from those schools anyway. FYI, though, Mystic Theurge sucks big time.

If you want access to spells from both lists, you could take straight Cleric with the Spell domain (Spell Compendium). Spell domain contains Anyspell and Greater Anyspell, which allow you to prepare any Arcane spell of a level lower than the spell. Additionally, Clerics can gain access to Shadow Conjuration and Evocation (Shadow domain) to mimic more arcane spells. So a Cleric with the Spell and Shadow domains has access to a large amount of the Wizard spell list without being saddled with Mystic Theurge or spellbook limitations.

[Madcrafter]

I wouldn't be to concerned over being overpowering as a mystic theurge, since they aren't the greatest of PrCs. Also, your DM is the first person I've heard of who makes you of the multiclassing XP penalties.
As for what to do with the history rewrite, it seems the DM has mostly left it up to you to decide, though it seems that they might prefer for you to just erase some the of the spellbook and leave it at that. It doesn't seem that taking a little longer to get to your mystic theurge will be that terrible. If I were you I might just do that, though I would consider doing something other than theurging, though changing to be a straight cleric as flickerdart suggests may be a bit much.

[marcielle]

Master specialist. Drop evocation as well as Abj and Nec. You are goin for max utility I'm guessing. If you wanna do damage, just pick up the Orbs. I don't know what they were smoking when they thought up damaging saveless spells that go thru antimagic but this line more or less makes Evoc obsolete unless you want the massive 'raze villages' type of thing.

[Aharon]

@all
Mystic Theurge isn't completely terrible, as he obviously uses some kind of early entry to get in at level 5. He gets his 3rd level wizard or 3rd level cleric spells at 6th character level this way, at the same time the sorcerer gets his.

[Redshirt Army]

@all
Mystic Theurge isn't completely terrible, as he obviously uses some kind of early entry to get in at level 5. He gets his 3rd level wizard or 3rd level cleric spells at 6th character level this way, at the same time the sorcerer gets his.

That's actually a good point - To get into Mystic Theurge, you need to be able to cast 2nd level Arcane and Divine Spells, which means at least 3 levels in Cleric and Wizard. Without early entry, that means you can only enter at 7th level at soonest. OP, how exactly are you qualifying for Mystic Theurge?

[Madcrafter]

Alternative Source Spell?

[Fax Celestis]

Alternative Source Spell?

That feat is made of lol.

[hex0]

If you want to be a Mystic Theurge, I say go for it. The class isn't overpowerered though, it's actually rather underpowered since you end up 3 levels behind in both spellcasting classes. Great for being a utility-belt type character though.


I like Warmage/Specialist Wizard that bans Evocation/Ultimate Magus better myself.

[Endarire]

What do you hope to accomplish with your character?

A Wizard5 is almost always more useful than a WizardX/ClericY. You'd be splitting yourself with 2 casting stats, and you don't get spiffy class features from PrCs.

Snuggle up with Treantmonk (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.00). His guide is the leader in Wizard spell advice for 3.5. You can win the game with 2 spells per Wizard level, though you may feel strained.

As for specialization, Transmutation and Conjuration tend to be the best schools. I prefer opposing Enchantment and Necromancy since I like [Force] spells, wind wall, and contingency.

I've played Clerics but find Wizards more fun and effective. A single Wizard spell repeatedly shuts down fights, or comes close, even from level 1. (Go go grease and color spray!) Cleric spells are usually about healing/mitigating damage and buffing yourself.

[Tyndmyr]

If you want to be a Mystic Theurge, I say go for it. The class isn't overpowerered though, it's actually rather underpowered since you end up 3 levels behind in both spellcasting classes. Great for being a utility-belt type character though.

EDIT: Also, I'd advise a specialist wizard. If you can banning Necromancy and Abjuration might be good, I think Cleric get most of those spells anyway. In the end though, the character will pretty much function the same whether you specialize or not.

This. Also, take Practiced Spellcaster at the first available opportunity, and set aside some gold for learning new spells.

[missmvicious]

I'm not that concerned with optimization, really. Our DM is pretty generous with base ability scores, starting items and XP, plus none of us are that familiar with complicated multi-classes, gestalts, and such. Let's face it, If I can brake a level 4 Human Wizard, I can brake an optimized character, and I don't want a broken character.

So I've decided to just scratch the spells off my book and go with Eldritch Master.

However, you've perked my ears up about school specialization. What would be the point of specializing?

Best I can tell, it gives you more spells per day and better spellcraft checks with your preferred school. But can't the spells per day hurdle be jumped simply by stocking up on scrolls and magic items? I took Scribe Scroll and Craft Wondrous Items for that purpose and I just leveled up to 5, so I'm taking Craft Magic Arms & Armor. My wizard is a support character, who specializes in buffing her team up with magic wands, scrolls, rods, weapons, armor, etc.

I was worried that specializing would limit the type of spells I could cast, and therefore make crafting harder. But I don't know much about wizards.

So I guess my new question before I rebuild my wizard is, what's the bennie of specializing in the context of my character?

[Tyndmyr]

However, you've perked my ears up about school specialization. What would be the point of specializing?

Best I can tell, it gives you more spells per day and better spellcraft checks with your preferred school.

Mainly, it's the more spells per day thing.


But can't the spells per day hurdle be jumped simply by stocking up on scrolls and magic items? I took Scribe Scroll and Craft Wondrous Items for that purpose and I just leveled up to 5, so I'm taking Craft Magic Arms & Armor. My wizard is a support character, who specializes in buffing her team up with magic wands, scrolls, rods, weapons, armor, etc.

I was worried that specializing would limit the type of spells I could cast, and therefore make crafting harder. But I don't know much about wizards. [/FONT]

Here's the thing. You cast spells a lot more often than you craft things. And very few of the spells you cast will come from your least two favorite schools. Pick all your spells as you normally would, and then look at what schools they're from. Can you cover that one or two spells from banned schools with scrolls? Most likely. Sometimes, going specialist really isn't a loss at all.

[Flickerdart]

However, you've perked my ears up about school specialization. What would be the point of specializing?

Best I can tell, it gives you more spells per day and better spellcraft checks with your preferred school. But can't the spells per day hurdle be jumped simply by stocking up on scrolls and magic items? I took Scribe Scroll and Craft Wondrous Items for that purpose and I just leveled up to 5, so I'm taking Craft Magic Arms & Armor. My wizard is a support character, who specializes in buffing her team up with magic wands, scrolls, rods, weapons, armor, etc.

I was worried that specializing would limit the type of spells I could cast, and therefore make crafting harder. But I don't know much about wizards.

So I guess my new question before I rebuild my wizard is, what's the bennie of specializing in the context of my character?
If you try and progress two different castings, one will usually be far behind the other (consider Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Wizard 4 - your Cleric casting only goes up to 7th level spells). Which means that you're not going to be getting very much of what you want, which is higher level slots. What you will be getting, however, is a lot of variety in the lower slots, meaning that you can pick up the useful spells from your banned schools, effectively negating the drawbacks of specialization.

[Endarire]

Optimization isn't only going all out. Optimization also covers basic competence.

Remember, your character is effectively in a war zone every day of her life. (Adventuring is dangerous. Carrying around the spoils of adventuring is dangerous. Associating with such people is dangerous.) It's logical, given her assumed mental stats, that she would want every edge.

Specialization in 3.5 works like this: Pick a school you like. You can cast more spells per day. Pick two schools you don't mind missing. (I prefer Enchantment for its redundancy and Necromancy since most GMs don't want me making an Undead army.)

Scrolls and items that cast spells are expensive. They take GP, XP, and time. Usually, their DCs and caster levels are so low that they're ick. Keeping some scrolls of buffs (like haste or protection from energy), utility spells (like teleport, dimension door, and polymorph) and niche spells (like arcane lock, tongues, and comprehend languages) helps if you need to use those spells in a pinch. Often, you don't, and you're better off with more spell slots. Treantmonk did some of the math (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.msg8048#msg8048) and, in short, more slots means you get to be effective (by casting spells) more often.

Also, alternative class features like these (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm) are basically saying, "Specialists win even more!" (Wizards have a lot they can trade to tweak their class.) If you're a Conjurer with the Abrupt Jaunt variant from Player's Handbook II, you're one tough lady to even hit.

If you're a dedicated crafter, have you considered being an Artificer from Eberron Campaign Setting? They make stuff. A lot. Here's the Unofficial Artificer Player's Guide 3.0 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5929.0).

I'm a perfectionist when it comes to optimization because I was burned so many times by not taking every edge. When I learned how to make an effective character and roleplayed him well with a personality of more than "Kill this and loot that," I loved him! I was effective at RP and mechanics. And that's a sign of a well-made character.

[MesiDoomstalker]

If your a buffer/supporter, Transmutation specialist is your modus operandi. Its stuffed full of supercharged buffs and debilatating debuffs. I created a Transmuter MT once, using Urpriest as the divine base but thats probably to OP for you and your group. He was a Focused Specialist, and ended up with only 1 or 2 non-Transmutation spells prepared on the Wizard side per spell level. Thats how awesome Transmutation de/buffs are. As long as you don't ban Conjuration, you can pick up the plethora of low-level teleport spells in PHBII and constantly rearrange the battlefield to setup your allies and screw your opponents. Or just go Fog crazy but that has issues of friendly-fire. I personally prefer Transmutation over Conjuration as Conjurations best abilities are either broken so much that only an insane DM will allow them to break his game or not "party-safe" and can be as detremental to your allies as to your enemies.

[Endarire]

War Weavers (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5881.0) make excellent Wizard buffers!

[Doc Roc]

War Weavers (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5881.0) make excellent Wizard buffers!

Ooh, you linked my guide!

[missmvicious]

The War Weaver sounds cool, but that's a bit too much of a rebuild. The DM and I worked together to build a whole back story on how I'm kind of a daddy's girl with a lot of his quirks; he's a magical tinkerer too with 2 Quills of Scribing (which are always scribbling away on an endless stack of parchment) and a menagerie of weird and wondrous magic items. His office looks a little like a cross between Caractacus Potts's shed from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, and Albus Dumbledore's office from Harry Potter. I take after him in that regards, and am always trying to craft something wild and interesting. I know it's fluff, but my DM rewards fluff.

Because of my back story, I've gotten 4 free Mage Armor Scrolls, a free Bag of Holding III, and a free Quill of Scribing from him. Also, due to daddy's considerable wealth and influence in my hometown, I always have a comfortable place to crash and someone to borrow money from when I start crafting 9000 GP swords and stuff as long as I roll a halfway decent Diplomacy check. It's a good back story, so I want to go with a crafter of at least some sort, especially since my NPC mom, an Aristocrat/Adept, would really prefer it if I just settled down with a nice, wealthy man. It's good to at least have one parent on my side when I'm heading out on another adventure.

Anyway, the Artificer sounded intriguing, but I was nervous about it because it seemed hard to work with. After reading the Unofficial Guide link, I'm beginning to think I was right. Although, it sounds like a UMD specialist who can mimic all the abilities of spell-casters well enough to craft them... so an item junkie. It sounds like exactly what I'm building, except with a slightly altered skill set and no real combat ability unless she comes fully equipped with magic devices, at which point, she's a golden goddess. Maybe Artificer is a better fit. I wonder how that would affect my NPC dad's perception of me if I can't cast spells on my own at all, though. Would that make me a squib?

It's something to think about, at least.

[MesiDoomstalker]

If I may, can I make a few suggestions? Artificer is strange. I admit I've never looked at the class directly (I'm severly Ebberon defecient) but from what I here on these boards as well as my friends who have played them, if you aren't completly tricked out in crafting, you are pretty worthless in combat. You'll be a good at crafting, yes, but at best you'll be UMDing wands and eating up your wealth even with cost reducers. On the plus side, you do cast spells, in a sense. You get infusions which aren't spells per sae but they are exactly the same for the most part. But for the most part, Artificer is a bit OP for you and your group in my opinion.

I might suggest Effigy Master from Complete Arcane? Its whole point is to make mechanical animals which sounds like a subset of what you want. A Transmuter Effigy Master is pretty awesome, especially using mass buffs to buff your pets and your allies.

[Madcrafter]

From what you have said, artificer is probably too powerful for your group to handle. Also, they require very good system mastery to play well. So in my opinion as well, its probably better if you stick with wizard or somesuch. (Although I disagree with your statement that the artificer has no real combat ability without their magic items. With infusions, they always have magic items, and always the right one for the job as long as you have a round to cast. Fighting orcs? You now have an orc bane crossbow. Being ambushed by archers? You now have a wand of Obscuring Mist. etc. At the very least, they are more powerful than an equally equipped fighter.)

Effigy master seems somewhat meh if you don't want to make creatures. I would say stick with what you have right now. Wizards make fine crafters. Maybe you can ask your DM if you can take some of the cost reduction feats from Eberron to let you craft more.

[Abies]

Question: Why is it being assumed as given that a Wizard who has specialized would have access to "forbidden" spells if they are granted as Cleric spells (or from another source)?
It is very clearly stated: Per the SRD


Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard
This in no way can be interpreted as only "Wizard spells" or "Arcane spells" unless there is an errata I am unfamiliar with.

Furthermore, there are others who seem to be indicating that specialists can simply use wands/scrolls to supplement the spells they can not cast... this too is expressly forbidden as a feature of being a wizard specialist.

If one chooses to employ house rules to make specilization irrelevant, that is their choice... By the RAW there are very specific rules that make it important.

[missmvicious]

Ok... so then, with that new information, specialization would be bad if I want to be a crafter. The more spells I have in my book, the higher the likelihood I can make something useful when I take the Craft Magic Arms and Armor Feat.

I think you can use UMD checks to use a wand that isn't from your school, but since (strangely) UMD is not a class skill, you have to burn x2 skill points to do something that you should already be able to do in the first place (if you had the school), which I guess would be a moot point since I would have to buy the wand to use it, because I wouldn't be able to make a wand from a forbidden school... which kills the whole point of being a crafter.

I think the verdict is in. I'm going to drop specialization. At the end of the day, versatility wins out over spells/day, especially once I pick up Craft Wand. With 50 charges per wand, I'll never run out of spells again.

Ooh, ooh. While I've got the attention of the Playground, I have one more question. More of curiosity than anything, because I don't think it'll come up, but when I was scribing scrolls I had to look up the base price formula for that, which is:

Spell Level x Caster Level x 25 GP, right?

Does that mean that 0-Level spells require no GP or XP cost to scribe?

0 x [any Wizard level, really] x 25 = 0 GP Base Price
0/25 = 0 XP Cost
0/2 = 0 GP Material Component Cost

Maybe they're just figuring what I figured. Who would waste a day of Scribing on a 0-level spell? But I started thinking. Since Detect Magic is so darn useful (the setting we're in is a misty and trackless rainforest, so movement has slowed to a halt, but the forest is enchanted, so everything lights up with a faint aura while using detect magic, making it so we can see clearly through mist and rain, day or night) I'm starting to think I could make a back stock of Detect Magic scrolls so the entire party could see like I can see. I mean, if it's 0 GP, and 0 XP, why not...

[Allanimal]

Spell Level x Caster Level x 25 GP, right?

Does that mean that 0-Level spells require no GP or XP cost to scribe?


For the purposes of this formula and I believe all crafting, 0-th level spells are treated as 0.5. If I remember correctly...

[missmvicious]

Sad, but fair, I guess.

[Endarire]

Artificers can do a lot.

They also require extreme system mastery for making the right continuous and consumable items. They require the right GM for giving away enough loot to convert into explodiness and shininess. They encourage using homemade spreadsheets for determining item prices after your discounts.

I know because I made an Artificer for a friend and basically was his accountant. It felt like office work.

[brujon]

Drop cleric, go for druid and Arcane Hierophant instead, it's better. If not, then, well... Illumian with improved sigil Krau can give you early entry into MT. Also see Precocious apprentice or + Sanctum Spell/Earth Spell shenanigans. That way you can get in with a Wiz3/Clr 1 or a Wiz1/Clr 3. Or if you do both, Wiz1/Clr1. That way you can get into double 9's yet.

[eepop]

I would say to go for Wizard/Cleric into Mystic Theurge, and pick all the crafting feats you want.

The combination is not over or underpowered and you should be able to do what it sounds like you want to do (Buff your allies and craft all kinds of items) the best this way.

If you can, ask your DM to allow the Cloister Cleric variant. It sounds like its abilities would match up well with your character concept. You basically trade the war-like stuff like armor and weapons that clerics usually get for some more knowledge-ish abilities.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm

[maysarahs]

Question: Why is it being assumed as given that a Wizard who has specialized would have access to "forbidden" spells if they are granted as Cleric spells (or from another source)?
It is very clearly stated: Per the SRD


This in no way can be interpreted as only "Wizard spells" or "Arcane spells" unless there is an errata I am unfamiliar with.

Furthermore, there are others who seem to be indicating that specialists can simply use wands/scrolls to supplement the spells they can not cast... this too is expressly forbidden as a feature of being a wizard specialist.

If one chooses to employ house rules to make specilization irrelevant, that is their choice... By the RAW there are very specific rules that make it important.

I have been interested in this comment because I wanted to know what the rest of the playground thought in regards to it, but no one replied to it. Someone else in another thread recently asked if a wizard could take a level in sorcerer to be able to use opposition schools' magic items again, and the consensus was "fairly obviously, yes"

I personally read it that "as a wizard" he cannot cast a spell from an opposition school, but "as a ____" if that class can then the CHARACTER has no issues with access to the spell. Of course, I have played Pathfinder recently (where opposition schools don't remove spells from your spell list), and it's been a while since I read the 3.5 PHB, but nonetheless I am curious as to this interpretation. Thoughts?

[MesiDoomstalker]

I have been interested in this comment because I wanted to know what the rest of the playground thought in regards to it, but no one replied to it. Someone else in another thread recently asked if a wizard could take a level in sorcerer to be able to use opposition schools' magic items again, and the consensus was "fairly obviously, yes"

I personally read it that "as a wizard" he cannot cast a spell from an opposition school, but "as a ____" if that class can then the CHARACTER has no issues with access to the spell. Of course, I have played Pathfinder recently (where opposition schools don't remove spells from your spell list), and it's been a while since I read the 3.5 PHB, but nonetheless I am curious as to this interpretation. Thoughts?

Specific trumps general. Specialist Wizard says you can't prepare spells from a forbbiden school (and thus by extension can't cast) nor use scrolls/wands/staves with spells from forbbiden school. Magic Domain's granted ability lets you use Scrolls/Wands/Staves from Sor/Wiz list. Specific trumps general.

On the other hand, Sorcerer dip is a different story. It's not specific. Specialist Wizard is more specific so by that virtue, that shouldn't solve the problem. But that doesn't make sense given the fluff of specialist wizard. The basic fluff is you focus more on a school and neglect study on other schools, forbiding your self access to those schools. So I'd say RAI, a Sorcerer dip (or any other casting dip) should allow you to cast from frobbiden school so long as its not through your Wizard casting ability. If your Cha is high enough to cast a given scroll of a forbbiden spell, you should be able to use the scroll but not if only your Int is high enough but not your Cha.

[JackRackham]

I don't think a retcon is necessary. You can take some time in game to retrain instead. This would also be more fair to the other characters, as they could retrain in that time as well. The rules are in the DM's Guide. Since it sounds like this is a new-to-the-game issue, your DM would be pretty justfied in waving the cost in gold as well (not that much anyway). Alternatively, he could just throw some extra your way. Regardless, this is better for coninuity sake and is more fair. Also, the mystic theurge is less than optimal. If you do go that route, look into Ur-Priest, or if you're not evil (I THINK Ur-Priest has to be evil....), artificer would be a better synergy with wizard as well (IMO)...at least insofar as they use the same primary casting attribute.

[Taelas]

I have been interested in this comment because I wanted to know what the rest of the playground thought in regards to it, but no one replied to it. Someone else in another thread recently asked if a wizard could take a level in sorcerer to be able to use opposition schools' magic items again, and the consensus was "fairly obviously, yes"

I personally read it that "as a wizard" he cannot cast a spell from an opposition school, but "as a ____" if that class can then the CHARACTER has no issues with access to the spell. Of course, I have played Pathfinder recently (where opposition schools don't remove spells from your spell list), and it's been a while since I read the 3.5 PHB, but nonetheless I am curious as to this interpretation. Thoughts?
You are quite correct. The prohibition only applies to spells gained as a Wizard.

[sonofzeal]

Specific trumps general. Specialist Wizard says you can't prepare spells from a forbbiden school (and thus by extension can't cast) nor use scrolls/wands/staves with spells from forbbiden school. Magic Domain's granted ability lets you use Scrolls/Wands/Staves from Sor/Wiz list. Specific trumps general.
It's not at all which is "specific" and which is "general" here. Really, both are "specific". It's kind of an awkward situation.

Ask your DM. There's nothing wrong with that.

[missmvicious]

My DM feels that a Forbidden school doesn't necessarily imply "complete inability" so much as "refusal to use." Wizard's who Specialize don't study spells from a specific school of magic and are therefore unable to do so, but only as a lifestyle choice.

It's sort of the difference between me not eating a slice of cake because I'm watching my figure, or not eating cake because I don't have a mouth. In this analogy, I have a mouth, I just chose not to eat certain things.

Therefore, he'll allow me to multi-class to gain forbidden schools, but thinks it cheap, like vegetarians who eat chicken. If I chose a lifestyle that forbade certain schools, why would I multi-class to get them back? Conveniently, I agree. From a role-playing perspective, I don't see why I would've taken Specialization. I did it because of some advice I was previously given as a way to optimize, but who am I kidding? I couldn't optimize if I wanted to. He showed me some other spell sources that I could use, which are really opening my eyes. It seems the further away you get from core books, the quicker you ascend to godhood. I'm not so disappointed about scratching spells off my list anymore. The only hard part is figuring out what to put in my spell book. So, I'm sifting through the Magic Items Compendium to create the perfect spell book for my comfortably un-optimized Wizard.

Thanks for all the advise though. I'm just not ready for that tier of game-play yet. I'm cool with my single-class to PrC build.

And sorry for all the food analogies. I'm hungry. :smallredface:

[MesiDoomstalker]

It's not at all which is "specific" and which is "general" here. Really, both are "specific". It's kind of an awkward situation.

Ask your DM. There's nothing wrong with that.

Let me clarify. Both are specific to more or less the same degree. Niether provide a condition underwhich they apply. But, Magic Domain granted power is a postive modifier "can" while specialist wizard is a negative modifier "can't." My arguement is that a postive overrides a negative given the same specificity. Though I admit this is more of a personal interpretation than RAW.



/snip

Quick note: You want Spell Compendium for spells, Magic Item Compendium for crafting goodies. I've played a crafter once and only once did I craft something that my party did not specifically ask for (it was a scroll of Raise Dead). Crafters are best for making items at his/her teammates request. I realize your group is unoptimized but they now their builds and character motives better than you do and thus now what equipment they need as well. If your filling your book up at the moment, check out Spell Compendium first. But if your more concerened about crafting, you kinda have to stick to core. Splat books are built with the idea that the owner has the core rule books and the splat and thats it to work with. So splat items generally use core spells for creation and occasionally something within the splat its self.

If I were you, I'd make your spell chose a 3:1 ratio. That is, 3 spells of immidiate usefulness (Grease, Haste, Fly) for every spell that is situational but useful for crafting (Secret Chest). That way you won't be gimping your combat ability for crafting nor gimping crafting for combat ability. Bonus points since a good number of combat useful spells are spells for good items.



And sorry for all the food analogies. I'm hungry. :smallredface:

No worries, its Turkey Day. Were all hungry. I'm probably going to break down and eat breakfast. :smalltongue:

[Taelas]

Why is this even an argument? These are two different chassis we're talking about, here.

Wizard specialization works for wizard spellcasting. Sorcerer spellcasting is separate, even if you have levels in both classes.

For example, you cannot cast any of your Sorcerer Spells Known through your Wizard Spells per Day, or vice versa. If you get a prestige class that increases your spellcasting, you have to choose which of the two it applies to.

The spellcastings are separate, and so are the restrictions. This is indisputable.

There is also little point in doing this (and none in prohibiting it). You are lowering your overall caster level (and splitting your main casting stat in two) to get more lower-level spells. Even if that includes prohibited schools, it's about as far from a gamebreaker as you can get.

[Aquillion]

Thanks for all the advise though. I'm just not ready for that tier of game-play yet. I'm cool with my single-class to PrC build.Note that for wizards (and spellcasters in general), taking a single-class to a PRC is generally optimal. Multiple base classes almost always cost you caster levels and slow down your spellcasting progression, since they don't stack; this is bad from an optimization standpoint because the best spells are the highest-level ones. A wizard 3 / Sorcerer 4 has a bunch of low-level 1st and 2nd level spells, but a wizard 7 would have 4th level spells, which generally improve your capabilities a lot more -- and most encounters of an appropriate CR for you will assume you have those spells.


The spellcastings are separate, and so are the restrictions. This is indisputable.

There is also little point in doing this (and none in prohibiting it). You are lowering your overall caster level (and splitting your main casting stat in two) to get more lower-level spells. Even if that includes prohibited schools, it's about as far from a gamebreaker as you can get.It is, but on the other hand, like she said above -- what does it mean from an in-character standpoint for a school to be forbidden? I think her DM's answer (you're allowed to do it, and certainly capable, but some specialists of your school might frown at you, like you're a vegetarian who occasionally eats turkey) makes some sense.

[maysarahs]

In regards to the flavor of specialization, I have always thought it more similar to an education. An example of what I mean is that as an engineer, I balk at the idea of writing an essay, or I simply don't have the knowledge of the intricacies of the events that led up to the war of 1812. Or for a more specific example, show a mechanical engineer a truss bridge, and with enough parameters they can show you the one beam that has the most stress on it. But shove a computer at them and ask them to program something to input data and do something simple as sorting it in numerical order, and they will give you a blank look. They are both engineering, but the curriculum simply isn't able to give (and sometimes not needed) knowledge of "all of engineering"

In regards to multiclassing, and specific trumps general, I feel like they both have the same level of specificity. Both casting rules refer to a class's ability to cast spells. Further specifically since the quote isn't "spells aren't available to the CHARACTER" do I believe that only as far as the wizard is concerned are spells unavailable to him. Adding another class does not affect the spells castable by a wizard, and vice versa.

For further thinking, if I were a wizard/cleric or wizard/druid that somehow banned conjuration, could I all of a sudden not be able to spontaneously heal/ SNA anymore at all?

[Taelas]

It is, but on the other hand, like she said above -- what does it mean from an in-character standpoint for a school to be forbidden? I think her DM's answer (you're allowed to do it, and certainly capable, but some specialists of your school might frown at you, like you're a vegetarian who occasionally eats turkey) makes some sense.

It doesn't have to mean anything. It's not like a specialist considers casting from any specific school "dirty" -- they might have done in 2E or 3.0, when you had to choose specific schools as prohibited, but they did away with that in 3.5.

It's not like you're suddenly branded with "Can't cast Evocation spells!" on your forehead when you choose Evocation as a prohibited school.

[Madcrafter]

In regards to the flavor of specialization, I have always thought it more similar to an education. An example of what I mean is that as an engineer, I balk at the idea of writing an essay, or I simply don't have the knowledge of the intricacies of the events that led up to the war of 1812. Or for a more specific example, show a mechanical engineer a truss bridge, and with enough parameters they can show you the one beam that has the most stress on it. But shove a computer at them and ask them to program something to input data and do something simple as sorting it in numerical order, and they will give you a blank look. They are both engineering, but the curriculum simply isn't able to give (and sometimes not needed) knowledge of "all of engineering"

This is what I always thought specialization was like, focusing on an area of expertise at the expense of others, mostly just because one doesn't have time to study them. And if you were multiclassing, especially as a class like a sorcerer or cleric, who get their spells from different sources, having the school prohibition apply seems a little illogical (especially the ability for a lifestyle choice to prevent a god from giving you spells, no matter how much they want to).

As for the engineering analogy, I don't know how long its been since you were in university, but where I go, every engineer would be able to program a computer to a certain degree, and about half would be able to do the stress analysis. The curriculum has changed to reflect the rising amount of integration between the disciplines (sort of like epic magic).

[Leon]

Sovereign Glue will fix it right up.

[maysarahs]

As for the engineering analogy, I don't know how long its been since you were in university, but where I go, every engineer would be able to program a computer to a certain degree, and about half would be able to do the stress analysis. The curriculum has changed to reflect the rising amount of integration between the disciplines (sort of like epic magic).

Haha these are basic examples meant to be easily identifiable regardless
of whether or not you studied engineering at any point. A better analogy would have been to program a specific language (everyone can use matlab in my school to that degree, but few people other than CSE's I know can program a sorting function in java as well as C), instead of stress analysis I guess I could sub in something not so fundamental such as circuit analysis (tl;dr I agree, and am sorry, in retrospect they were bad examples)

[Abies]

Here is the thing with Specialist Wizards casting prohibited spells through other sources.
1) Yes, the prohibition says "these spells are unavailable to the Wizard". Taking another class does not and can not be interpreted as the character no longer being a wizard. Regardless of whether the character wants to cast/prepare/wand the spells as another class, "Wizard" remains a very important descriptor of the character, and should not be ignored. As mentioned before, if a DM chooses to allow this sort of rule interpretation, it devalues the class option. As such, I would hope that any specialist spells cast from other sources would not benefit from the +1 bonus to saving throws. However that simple concession hardly equates to the amazing benefit gained by totally circumventing the prohibitions of the specialist class option.

2) In regard to the interpretations of why specialists exist: I'm certain that most other individuals who have any sort of specialist academic experience can relate to the experience of simply not "getting it" in regard to specific sub-sections of a discipline. For what ever reason, despite having no problems whatsoever in Advanced Chemistry, Organic Chemistry and Physical Chemistry I could never manage to manually interpret Spectroscopy (Magnetic or Infrared) results. I just could not get it, regardless of however much I studied or tried. Perhaps the specialist option reflects that sort of inability to integrate knowledge.

Whatever interpretation is agreed upon, the most important is great for tautology: "It's magic, it works by magic". In D&D gods are not immune to the rules of magic. If for whatever reason a character can not cast a spell from a given school, it is prohibited (so says the physics of magic). There is no mention or allowance for alternate sources of power. "Magic" says the spells are not allowed, therefore they are not allowed.
As always, if a DM chooses to interpret a class option as a meaningless roadbump to powergaming, that is the DM's choice

[maysarahs]

Here is the thing with Specialist Wizards casting prohibited spells through other sources.
1) Yes, the prohibition says "these spells are unavailable to the Wizard". Taking another class does not and can not be interpreted as the character no longer being a wizard. Regardless of whether the character wants to cast/prepare/wand the spells as another class, "Wizard" remains a very important descriptor of the character, and should not be ignored. As mentioned before, if a DM chooses to allow this sort of rule interpretation, it devalues the class option. As such, I would hope that any specialist spells cast from other sources would not benefit from the +1 bonus to saving throws. However that simple concession hardly equates to the amazing benefit gained by totally circumventing the prohibitions of the specialist class option.

As always, if a DM chooses to interpret a class option as a meaningless roadbump to powergaming, that is the DM's choice

For point 1, I offer a counterexample, in terms of weapon, armor and shield proficiency, the SRD says "Wizards are proficient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff, but not with any type of armor or shield." Correct me if I am wrong, but for simplicity's sake, we can shorten this statement to read "Wizards are not proficient with any type of armor or shield." If I multiclassed into fighter, I am still a wizard and the original statement still stands. By your logic, (from what I understood) this means that I cannot pick up the proficiency of shields and armor (and I suppose by extension, "all martial weapons") granted by the level in fighter because I am still a wizard, and my proficiency block specifically says I am not proficient. Is this correct?

I also think that (I have little confidence in this, just something I THINK to be true) the books are fairly consistent with the wording of [class] versus using the word character. A mention of class refers to the abilities gained by levels in a class, a character is the sum of all class levels and RHD, LA, race, etc. If the quote had said "These spells are unavailable to the character" I would agree with you. However, they are unavailable to the Wizard, and any means of casting accessible to the wizard, not the character.

( I omitted point two from my quoting you because I find that flavor is flavor and I agree with your interpretation as being one of the many that would make sense to me)

Further, all DM's have a right to interpret the rules as they see fit, but claiming this interpretation is a gateway to powergaming is one I would check because as far as I am aware (I am a lurker, don't claim to have a great grasp on the rules, and by far have no skill at optimization) the consensus is that trying to pick up missed spells by multiclassing is the opposite of powergaming since you lose caster levels, and assuming you chose one of the less popular schools to ban, you wouldn't be missing much anyways.

I appreciate the discussion, cheers.

[Abies]

The previous reply was well structured and very intelligently stated. I'm afraid I do not have a logical rebuttal to the points made beyond saying that the spell prohibition is a prohibition, and weapon/armor proficiency is an additive feature.
One says "you may not do this"; the other says "you also can do this". If your driver's licence is suspended in one state, and you go get another licence in another state, that does not mean you can legally drive in the original state. A poor analogy to be sure, but it's 2 in the morning.

While I can see the benefits of allowing forsaken spell casting through alternate power sources, I would not allow it as a DM, nor would I attempt it as a player. These are matters of personal choice. I'll not try to sway alternative opinions, so long as folks have fun playing the game all is well.

[Anyr]

From the official D&D 3.5 FAQ:


If a specialist wizard gains levels in a different
spellcasting class, does her choice of forbidden spells affect
her spell choice for the new class?

No. Though the School Specialization sidebar (PH 57) is
not explicit, the forbidden schools pertain only to spells gained
from the wizard class.

[hex0]

From the official D&D 3.5 FAQ....

Which is why these combos can be so effective:

-Ban Necromancy and play a Specialist Wizard/Dread Necromancer/Ultimate Magus
-Ban Evocation and play a Specialist Wizard/Warmage/Ultimate Magus
-Ban Enchantment and/or Illusion and play a Specialist Wizard/Beguiler/Ultimate Magus
-Play a Trickster Spellthief 2/(Necromancer, Conjurer or Evoker) 3/Ultimate Magus for caster level abuse and Steal Spell

You make up for your forbidden school by getting spontaneous spells of the school from another source. You'll still have all the schools! (The second one is my favorite for the INT synergy)